Bharat Rakshak Forum Announcement

Hello Everyone,

A warm welcome back to the Bharat Rakshak Forum.

Important Notice: Due to a corruption in the BR forum database we regret to announce that data records relating to some of our registered users have been lost. We estimate approx. 500 user details are deleted.

To ease the process of recreating the user IDs we request members that have previously posted on the BR forums to recognise and identify their posts, once the posts are identified please contact the BRF moderator team by emailing BRF Mod Team with your post details.

The mod team will be able to update your username, email etc. so that the user history can be maintained.

Unfortunately for members that have never posted or have had all their posts deleted i.e. users that have 0 posts, we will be unable to recreate your account hence we request that you re-register again.

We apologise for any inconvenience caused and thank you for your understanding.

Regards,
Seetal

AMCA News and Discussions

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Gyan
BRFite
Posts: 902
Joined: 26 Aug 2016 19:14

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Gyan » 16 Sep 2017 20:41

Frankly we should directly go for Star Ship Enterprise to save time.

Gagan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10672
Joined: 16 Apr 2008 22:25

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Gagan » 16 Sep 2017 21:12

India's defence forces, its senior officers, IAS Ministry of Defence Babus and Politicians don't want local R&D and local products.
They are still caught in a time warp of India is poor country and videsh is best onlee

Their actions have not allowed local defense industry to develop.

Until the Government and these guys don't take pride in Indian made equipment, this is not going to improve.
India's economic and political clout means that an all out war is not going to happen with anyone. If Pakistan dares to do mischief, there is enough maal already deployed to easily overwhelm them.
Against China, only a border skirmish is going to happen. The ITBP walas better brush up their Kung-Fu and Kabaddi skills, because that is the extent to which it will deteriorate. Neither China nor India plans on an all out war now.

So that being the case, why not make everything in India, let Indian defense industry first do R&D for indian forces, who will need to be forced to accept the supplied items, and then improve the products. And then export to other Third world nations.

An AMCA is needed, but an LCA with a Kaveri Engine, LDRE Doppler Radar, Desi AAMs, PGMs is also needed for exports to all over Africa, SE asia, South America.

chola
BRFite
Posts: 1665
Joined: 16 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: USA

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby chola » 17 Sep 2017 02:00

Gagan wrote:
Until the Government and these guys don't take pride in Indian made equipment, this is not going to improve.
India's economic and political clout means that an all out war is not going to happen with anyone. If Pakistan dares to do mischief, there is enough maal already deployed to easily overwhelm them.
Against China, only a border skirmish is going to happen. The ITBP walas better brush up their Kung-Fu and Kabaddi skills, because that is the extent to which it will deteriorate. Neither China nor India plans on an all out war now.



EXACTLY. This "we are under immediate seige by two super powerful enemies and need the best phoren maal here and now" way of thinking has done massive harm to the domestic industrial base.

We are colossus in one of the weakest military neighborhoods on earth. We have beaten Pakistan like a dog over and over again so we know we can handle that failure of a state with a small faction of what we have.

And if we can't get into a war with Cheen after two months of shrill screaming from the PRC, it is not going to happen. Cheen has not fought a war in 5 decades and Doka La shows me it won't for decades more.

And if we won't fight Cheen with all the advantages on the LAC right now -- hundreds of IAF planes from 30+ bases versus 34 J-10/11's from five PLAAF air strips -- then why bother buying all that phoren maal now?

Again take Cheen as an example, the PRC unlike India really is surrounded by major military powers -- US bases, Russia, Japan, Vietnam, SoKo, Taiwan, etc. And yet, they have enough confidence in themselves to stay the course with their own systems.

We have more than enough time to build up our industrial base if only we would start and support it. If Iran can learn from the J-85 turbojet and then plug it into a F-5 equivalent then we should be MORE than able to do the same with the Tumansky engine and the MiG-21 which we had built for ages. For starters.

samirdiw
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 89
Joined: 18 Jul 2017 22:00

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby samirdiw » 17 Sep 2017 08:42

Gagan wrote:India's defence forces, its senior officers, IAS Ministry of Defence Babus and Politicians don't want local R&D and local products.
They are still caught in a time warp of India is poor country and videsh is best onlee


While this is true, somebody has to take the onus to come up with a long-term plan and structure to innovation.

The Defense Minister comes from a non-defense background and can only take people to task but cannot be expected to teach folks process. The defense folks are non-product background and only the end users who provide inputs or provide feedback. They are usually not creative people and can only think of what they have seen before hence the enthusiasm with brochures.

It really on DRDO and the like to put a structure in place, use proper product management practices, make proposals, come up with risk reduction alternatives and make it appealing to the ministry and defense heads. Its really on them to influence the rest.

Maybe the DRDO needs to give more responsibility on the different groups within it to be more proactive.

As a start for chrissake look at the links to the LCA, Kaveri to show their lackadaisical attitude. People on this site have created so much good material just on their own time. It will take a couple of hours to put some better content. The whole DRDO doesn't have time for that? This whole thing that we are not good in marketing just doesn't hold.

https://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/English/in ... pg=LCA.jsp

HAL for example just acts like an employment agency with more focus on 'order books' than understanding whats driving the armed forces and ministry to look at alternatives.

All the 3 are at fault but its really on the product manufacturer to bring along and influence the others - the investor and the user.

Dileep
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5078
Joined: 04 Apr 2005 08:17
Location: Dera Mahab Ali धरा महाबलिस्याः درا مهاب الي

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Dileep » 17 Sep 2017 09:03

The primary problem is, the neta/babu/brass imagine that soldiers are born TFTA trained and ready to fight from some magic womb, basically because that is what they have seen from the import maal.

We have afsars who complained that "LCA can't fly without telemetry".

Pratyush
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7514
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 15:13

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Pratyush » 17 Sep 2017 09:32

Dileep wrote:
Snip....

We have afsars who complained that "LCA can't fly without telemetry".



Wtf, if true.

Cybaru
BRFite
Posts: 1920
Joined: 12 Jun 2000 11:31
Contact:

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Cybaru » 17 Sep 2017 09:35

Dileep wrote:We have afsars who complained that "LCA can't fly without telemetry".


Stupid question: What is the basis for them making such assumptions?

Dileep
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5078
Joined: 04 Apr 2005 08:17
Location: Dera Mahab Ali धरा महाबलिस्याः درا مهاب الي

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Dileep » 17 Sep 2017 12:19

The comment appeared in one of the DDM articles, and was discussed on the LCA thread.

It is true that all the aircraft except the SPs are highly instrumented for data collection and telemetry. This is standard practice. Without which, how will you know what went wrong if something happens? I am pretty sure that the SPs have instrumentation, but may not have real time transmission to ground.

The shiny new imported maal will not obviously have the instrumentation visible to the pilots you see? The point is, the "user" never appreciates the "in development" status of the products.

chola
BRFite
Posts: 1665
Joined: 16 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: USA

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby chola » 17 Sep 2017 15:11

Dileep wrote:The comment appeared in one of the DDM articles, and was discussed on the LCA thread.

It is true that all the aircraft except the SPs are highly instrumented for data collection and telemetry. This is standard practice. Without which, how will you know what went wrong if something happens? I am pretty sure that the SPs have instrumentation, but may not have real time transmission to ground.

The shiny new imported maal will not obviously have the instrumentation visible to the pilots you see? The point is, the "user" never appreciates the "in development" status of the products.



It's a two-prong problem where the prongs twist themselves into a horrible death spiral. HAL/ADA create very ambitious designs that our industrial base cannot support -- LCA/Kaveri being a prime example but also IJT and Saras. Thus the need for imported subsystems that not only doesn't help the local industry but the integration of which results in massive delays. Delays that force the armed forces to reach out to phoren firms and phoren products considered best on market. That in turn forces HAL/MoD to put forth even more grandios projects for an IAF expecting the best and which our industrial/manufacturing base cannot hope to support. Thus even more phoren parts and help is needed. So at some point we end up with screwdrivering phoren parts in a phoren design. Screwdrivergiri.

The obvious answer to this is living within our means. Build something that the nation can support manufacturing-wise at this time or in the near future. If it means we build a less ambitious aircraft so be it. At least we would have it in numbers to give to our military. As much as we want to laugh at the JF-17 compared to the LCA (no FBW, no composites, no expectation of a homemade engine) it is built in good numbers and has been inducted for years.

We could have easily made something equivalent -- and we have in the past with practical projects like HT-2, HFT-32, the Kiran. We could have had two projects in the 1990s. The ambitious LCA/Kaveri and maybe a much cheaper backup plan based on the MiG-21/Tumansky 25 which we were already making at the time.

Having something that could be produced inhouse and in hand could have forestall these knee-jerk RFIs and tenders like the SE fighter, Navy's 57, MMRCA, etc. and allowed the more ambitious projects to germinate.

Cosmo_R
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3324
Joined: 24 Apr 2010 01:24

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Cosmo_R » 17 Sep 2017 15:38

@Chola ^^^: Exactly. Add to that a 'fits and starts' defense policy and each new project is greenfields. No institutional memory, cumulative knowledge base and no mentors.

If we had persevered with the HF24, we would have had our 'Viggen' by the early 1980s. And that base today...

I hope that with AMCA, they fork it: Block 1 has 4G capabilities and matches the industrial base we will have and Block N has the stealth and futuristic stuff

Dileep
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5078
Joined: 04 Apr 2005 08:17
Location: Dera Mahab Ali धरा महाबलिस्याः درا مهاب الي

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Dileep » 17 Sep 2017 16:44

The babus will NEVER sanction two projects, because their job description is 'economy at any cost'.

The scientists (what is the desi equivalent term here?) are forced to promise the sky, because the babus and soljers will 'negotiate' for better maal, and will not 'sanction' something 'inferior' to the glossy brochures.

Projects will be inherently delayed, since all corners will be cut, buffers sucked out, cushion taken out, leaving the perfectly ideal flow, and then let to deal with all the system problems.

We are like this onlee.

Vivek K
BRFite
Posts: 1730
Joined: 15 Mar 2002 12:31

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Vivek K » 17 Sep 2017 20:40

India needs to get off its hankering for imported toys. If IAF had persisted with the Marut, they would have had an aircraft perhaps better or as good as the Jaguar today with no secrets hidden. And the second project should have been a Mig-21 clone with improved engine, landing speeds and multirole capability. The third should have been the LCA. But history....

KrishnaK
BRFite
Posts: 846
Joined: 29 Mar 2005 23:00

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby KrishnaK » 18 Sep 2017 04:29

chola wrote: Again take Cheen as an example, the PRC unlike India really is surrounded by major military powers -- US bases, Russia, Japan, Vietnam, SoKo, Taiwan, etc. And yet, they have enough confidence in themselves to stay the course with their own systems.
They don't have much in the way of options.

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 35358
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 18 Sep 2017 13:34

https://youtu.be/7Ub0UbhDGDE

Image

I was thinking such an inlet design but now LM stole it from my thoughts. Any inlet experts on this specifically vortex

PS: here are more data.. we will soon begin giant discussion. I am sure this is going to enrich this dhaaga

https://theaviationist.com/2017/09/17/n ... d-fighter/

NEW LOCKHEED MARTIN’S SKUNK WORKS VIDEO TEASES THE SHAPE OF THE NEXT-GENERATION AIR DOMINANCE (NGAD) FIGHTER

Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9213
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Aditya_V » 18 Sep 2017 13:43

KrishnaK wrote:
chola wrote: Again take Cheen as an example, the PRC unlike India really is surrounded by major military powers -- US bases, Russia, Japan, Vietnam, SoKo, Taiwan, etc. And yet, they have enough confidence in themselves to stay the course with their own systems.
They don't have much in the way of options.


And which of those countries is the aggressor there.
1. Japan is being pacifist
2. Taiwan will not attack China
3. Vietnam will not attack China
4. Russia will not attack China
5. USA will not attack China
6. India will not attack China.

China knows that unless it starts a war nobody will attack it. Whereas for us both China and Pakis are like jackals, if there is some weakness they fully exploit it.

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 35358
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 18 Sep 2017 14:24


brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5893
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby brar_w » 18 Sep 2017 14:43

SaiK wrote:I was thinking such an inlet design but now LM stole it from my thoughts. Any inlet experts on this specifically vortex



Because Miss Feb. has been doing the rounds in their marketing for the last few years, we can safely rule it out as something that will come to light. Neither them or he other two OEMs working on future systems in the US will share anything that looks like what they think might be an option for future work. Besides, designs are based on requirements furnished by the operator. The Penetrating Counter Air program with the USAF is just getting started and won't reach the requirements space till a few years time.

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 15814
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby NRao » 18 Sep 2017 14:57

Boeing:

Image


and NASA's X-4 Bantam from 1948:

Image

JayS
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2611
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby JayS » 18 Sep 2017 15:21

brar_w wrote:
SaiK wrote:I was thinking such an inlet design but now LM stole it from my thoughts. Any inlet experts on this specifically vortex



Because Miss Feb. has been doing the rounds in their marketing for the last few years, we can safely rule it out as something that will come to light. Neither them or he other two OEMs working on future systems in the US will share anything that looks like what they think might be an option for future work. Besides, designs are based on requirements furnished by the operator. The Penetrating Counter Air program with the USAF is just getting started and won't reach the requirements space till a few years time.


True. Why would someone use that kind of intakes anyway, with Boundary layer and vortical structures from the chin going inside the intake...? Looks cool for video games though.

I saw that video a couple of days ago. Didn't bother giving second thought to anything "futuristic" being shown in it.

brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5893
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby brar_w » 18 Sep 2017 15:25

There are some good clips in the video that have been shared for the first time. The AFRL Efficient Supersonic Vehicle model was something Lockheed spent quite a decent time on under contract. But the other computer generated animations are mostly PR work and has no bearing on what the actual design teams are working on. Same with Boeing for that matter.

chola
BRFite
Posts: 1665
Joined: 16 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: USA

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby chola » 18 Sep 2017 15:43

Aditya_V wrote:
KrishnaK wrote: They don't have much in the way of options.


And which of those countries is the aggressor there.
1. Japan is being pacifist
2. Taiwan will not attack China
3. Vietnam will not attack China
4. Russia will not attack China
5. USA will not attack China
6. India will not attack China.

China knows that unless it starts a war nobody will attack it. Whereas for us both China and Pakis are like jackals, if there is some weakness they fully exploit it.


Unkil had attacked and regime-changed many nations. Including attempts on Cheen. Taiwan and CIA was launching clandestine operations up until 1960s. CIA was operating from India soil against Cheen lest we forget. And Unkil was involved in two bloody wars in failed regime changing on chinis' border -- NoKo and N Vietnam.

And how does Cheen or anything nation know if another nation would not attack? You are looking at it with a prism of jingoism: Pakistan and Cheen are super duper threats, we face this kind of immense threat onlee.

Bullshit I say. In fact, TSP and Cheen constitute pretty weak military challenges. Pakis were beaten senseless repeatedly and Cheen can't fight and had not fought us or anyone else in a half century because it knows it can't fight.

Sorry, if Indians were chinis we would be scared to death of Japan who would have killed tens of millions of us with great ease, of nuclear armed Russia who fought us over land in 1969 that was once ours. We would be peeing ourselves thinking of Unkil after Eisenhower threatened to nuke us over an island that used to be ours. And MacArthur threaten to nuke us over a peninsula next to our industrial heartland.

In the end, it is a matter of confidence. Geo-politically India has a major advantage over Cheen but we act like we are in a more vulnerable position onlee. TSP and are real enemies but they are shit military powers. Cheen face military powers that are on another planet -- two actual superpowers and two near-superpowers (Bharat, Japan) and a half dozen nations with far better militaries than Pakiland.

This false view that we facing first-rate military threats when they are nothing but crap has done massive damage to our defense industrial base by dhoti-shivering us to think only the best phoren maal here and now can protect us.

Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19750
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Austin » 21 Sep 2017 11:06

https://twitter.com/vkthakur/status/910736128465969152

Vijainder K Thakur‏ @vkthakur

Powering the AMCA with a foreign engine won't be the biggest mistake India makes, it will be the biggest mistake India makes a second time!

chola
BRFite
Posts: 1665
Joined: 16 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: USA

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby chola » 21 Sep 2017 15:43

Austin wrote:https://twitter.com/vkthakur/status/910736128465969152

Vijainder K Thakur‏ @vkthakur

Powering the AMCA with a foreign engine won't be the biggest mistake India makes, it will be the biggest mistake India makes a second time!


How is it a mistake when we do not have an engine any where near ready yet? The kaveri was always a moonshot. We never made the foundational steps needed to build such an engine. We don't have a turbojet. We don't have a turboprop. Hell, we don't even have a goddam piston engine for our Rustom drone and instead used a Lycoming. We had little chance then and now with the specs of a world class turbofan coming from that technical base. Ambition is a good thing but so is realism and living within means.

Divorce the airframe from the engine otherwise we'll be waiting forever. The LCA survived to reach induction today after delinking from the Kaveri and settling on the F404 in 2008 onlee.

Pratyush
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7514
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 15:13

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Pratyush » 21 Sep 2017 16:05

Why not fund a new engine taking the lessons of Kaveri on a national mission basis. Using the lessons of Kaveri I am sure that in the next 10 years a domestic engin will be in place.

chola
BRFite
Posts: 1665
Joined: 16 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: USA

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby chola » 21 Sep 2017 16:41

By all means, continue with kaveri. Make it work. But do not tie any project entirely to it. Have it as plan B.

putnanja
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4334
Joined: 26 Mar 2002 12:31
Location: searching for the next al-qaida #3

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby putnanja » 21 Sep 2017 19:04

chola wrote:By all means, continue with kaveri. Make it work. But do not tie any project entirely to it. Have it as plan B.


True. An aircraft is usually designed with the engine right from the start. If we don't have a working engine, even a lower powered one with ability to scale up, how can one wait for an indigenous engine? Even Pratt & Whitney, which is one of the big 3 of aircraft engine makers in the world is struggling with its geared engines for Airbus A320 family. Its two years after the first aircraft was delivered and they are still trying to iron out the issues. And P&W is also late on the engine with F35 with multiple problems associated with it. And this with manufacturers who have more than five decades experience in designing and building engine.

And while engine is the heart of the the plane, there are multiple other aspects of the aircraft that we have had experience with LCA like structures, aerodynamics, Fly-by-wire technology, radars, stealth etc, which can be taken forward with AMCA and build up more expertise. Take an available engine and build it for IAF requirements, without waiting for all stars to line up and aiming for 100% indigenous content.

pravula
BRFite
Posts: 108
Joined: 07 Aug 2009 05:01

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby pravula » 21 Sep 2017 21:51

chola wrote:
Austin wrote:https://twitter.com/vkthakur/status/910736128465969152

Vijainder K Thakur‏ @vkthakur

Powering the AMCA with a foreign engine won't be the biggest mistake India makes, it will be the biggest mistake India makes a second time!


How is it a mistake when we do not have an engine any where near ready yet? The kaveri was always a moonshot. We never made the foundational steps needed to build such an engine. We don't have a turbojet. We don't have a turboprop. Hell, we don't even have a goddam piston engine for our Rustom drone and instead used a Lycoming. We had little chance then and now with the specs of a world class turbofan coming from that technical base. Ambition is a good thing but so is realism and living within means.

Divorce the airframe from the engine otherwise we'll be waiting forever. The LCA survived to reach induction today after delinking from the Kaveri and settling on the F404 in 2008 onlee.


Yep, not a mistake, just sad.

samirdiw
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 89
Joined: 18 Jul 2017 22:00

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby samirdiw » 26 Sep 2017 19:33

Dileep wrote:The babus will NEVER sanction two projects because their job description is 'economy at any cost'.



It is the Babus job to be frugal after all they are the bean counter and there isn't anyone else doing the job. They are not supposed to be experts in product development. The nameless babu is an easy target.

The onus is always on the product developer to be creative and have the ability to influence and be persistent. We have already discussed above how two projects can be economical when we take into other factors (risk/change in scope etc). They have to put in dollar amounts against each. Defense forces and Babus can more than be ready to give them numbers in case of a failure in a path. They have to create the roadmap for the product, lay out the costs and reasonable timelines and get everyone on board. Cant and shouldn't expect the 5-year wala, Bean counter or Brawn guy to drive the product.

They can also bring in other things reduce the risk of change in "clearance" and numbers from the defense forces.

1. Agree on predetermined numbers for each block so that defense forces cannot ask for more feature before they clear. This will mean automatic approval once it has been verified.
2. Get an independent body of retired folks as possible evaluators also (with agreement with the different groups)
3. When substituting with foreign components always use a lower version than what is being built in-house. This will mean that the defense force will look towards the Indian version of the component being developed
4. Have at least 3 representatives from the defense forces for each product. This will also mean the lower possibility of influence by vested interests and also greater push within the defense (e.g. 3 Maolankars instead of one).

Not saying that the others are not contributing to the problem. They can do their parts better (e.g. GOI/IAF unnecessary creating this confusion with SE when we are on the production with LCA). It's not an easy thing but there is no one else who can do this effectively or should be doing this. ADA/DRDO/HAL have to come out of this order-taker mentality and be more the drivers of the product direction and strategy.

Rakesh
Webmaster BR
Posts: 3960
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Rakesh » 28 Sep 2017 06:14

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/912335455005286406 --> At the moment, only Rs 231 crores have been sanctioned for a lead-in project for both Ghatak UCAV & AMCA together.

Khalsa
BRFite
Posts: 1000
Joined: 12 Nov 2000 12:31
Location: NZL

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Khalsa » 28 Sep 2017 13:46

Austin wrote:https://twitter.com/vkthakur/status/910736128465969152

Vijainder K Thakur‏ @vkthakur

Powering the AMCA with a foreign engine won't be the biggest mistake India makes, it will be the biggest mistake India makes a second time!


I have a question for VK Thakur, what do you do ?
Keep waiting till we Fly the Kaveri which won't happen because we don't have a plane and therefore import the foreign plane + engine. SUch as F-16 or F-35.

AMCA must fly
foreign engine or not

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 15814
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby NRao » 28 Sep 2017 14:03

IIRC, in 2011/12, they had requested 200 crores just for the AMCA.

Accounting for inflation + the unmanned effort, this amount is not bad.

The AMCA and the unmanned craft have substantial commonality.

Very good news.

This should mean the AMCA engine is coming along well too.

Cybaru
BRFite
Posts: 1920
Joined: 12 Jun 2000 11:31
Contact:

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Cybaru » 02 Oct 2017 06:36

Cross posting my thoughts from LCA thread. This thread might be more relevant to conversation. I don't think we should worry about AMCA for navy at all.

Since we are at the could have, should have point in this thread, let me throw in my two cents.

1. Scrap IAF version of Mk2. Develop only one version the Naval version of Mk2 and make it work for both. We don't have manpower for both. The IN version will add both payload and an extra 22-30 minutes to the sorties.

2. Agree with brar! Start with AMCA instead of modding the CLAW when you change from 4.5 gen to 5th gen even if takes more time. Thats the right way forward. This way the amount of fuel, internal structures and all are designed for stealth from day one. Redoing a non stealth to stealth will add another 10 years.

3. COMPLETELY SCRAP AMCA for NAVY. I will get burned for this, but I really think thats the right thing to do. Ignore Naval requirements at the moment. IAF has requirement of over 200/250, whereas naval requirement after the 57 fighter RFI might be to exercise more options of the same type (FA-18/F35BC/Rafale). Naval requirement may be very limited for AMCA platform if the above RFI goes through and if LCA Mk2 is completed. LCA will pick up any remaining requirement for the next 30-40 years. Plus if they pull off F35B/C it will have stealth and be valid for next 40 years.

Navy will have 45 Mig 29Ks + 57 New type (+options) + 40 LCA Mk2 (+options) = 150-160 in total.

This will give us enough time and experience to create a naval version of AMCA after the IAF version makes it to production line if there is appetite and demand for it. But for now lets give this a pass.

4. Explore Ghatak for IN. Make that work. That will be easier to absorb and deploy and will be a game changer for IN.

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 15814
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby NRao » 02 Oct 2017 12:30

I *think* the NAMCA will get a nod once the INS Vishal is approved.

chola
BRFite
Posts: 1665
Joined: 16 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: USA

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby chola » 02 Oct 2017 20:11

One of the worst aspects of the PSU-led is this reliance on signature projects that must be funded from the MoD.

Granted the US aviation industry is much more mature but designs and prototypes are pitched by firms/bureaus without funding from the center. Sometimes they are the advanced types but other times they are more modest, lower cost proposal of existing technology that tend to operate as backup plans.

People tend to think of the Teen series (F-14/15/16/18) and the F-22 and believe it is always the ground breaking new types that ultimately enters the services. But sometimes the low-cost option won out. The F-4 was taken up by the USAF from the USN. They also picked up the A-7, developed from the old Crusader. F-18E backed up the Navy’s ground-breaking and budget-busting A-12 that was finally cancelled because of cost.

The attainable back-up option should be even more important for an industry like ours which still needs to grow out its foundation.

There was no reason why we couldn’t have had a cheaper project based on the MiG-21 along with the LCA twenty years ago.

There is no reason why we cannot have an attainable AMCA offering based on what we have learned from our MKI, LCA or even Hawk production today.

We can’t depend on moonshots all the time. We went for composites, FBW and a new turbofan engine on the LCA when Russia itself was using mainly metal alloys. When Russia was still wringing out its FBW on the Flankers (and the Fulcrum was on mechanical.) When Russia even today is still having issues with its Kaveri class turbofan, the RD-33.

At least propose something our industry can support at this time. That does not mean we don’t push for the best. Just something as a backup plan in case the more ambitious designs take a little longer.

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 15814
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby NRao » 02 Oct 2017 23:44

Granted the US aviation industry is much more mature but designs and prototypes are pitched by firms/bureaus without funding from the center.


There are those that claim that the tail wags the dog!!!

JayS
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2611
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby JayS » 03 Oct 2017 11:30

X-posting from LCA thread

NRao wrote:
JayS wrote:When? Where? How much? Last time I checked FSED is still pending approval.


The original post was in the AMCA thread. I just researched the story and here are the quotes:

Sept 24, 2017 :: https://twitter.com/ashishat763/status/ ... 5451339777 ::

@SJha1618 Hey, one question: I have read somewhere that MoD has approved full R&D funding for AMCA? Is that correct?


Sept 25, 2017 :: https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/912335455005286406 ::

At the moment, only Rs 231 crores have been sanctioned for a lead-in project for both Ghatak UCAV & AMCA together.


Which is what I was going by. In my research could not find any other source to back it up. So, ???????????. Do not know if I should back out of my position on this funding topic.


NRao sahab, those 230 Cr rupees are given for some basic 5th gen technology RnD such as serpentine intake, may be SW development for aero-electromagnetic shaping, RAM coating and things like that which are essential for AMCA and Ghatak and is only a small starting. You were talking of prototypes for AMCA. I don't have to tell you that in 230Cr one probably could make only a wooden prototype for RCS testing, do I..?? That's all it is enough for. And may be a scaled flying UAV for some basic aero characteristics. AMCA PV will need 3000-4000Cr funding at the bare minimum.

JayS
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2611
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby JayS » 03 Oct 2017 11:33

NRao wrote:I *think* the NAMCA will get a nod once the INS Vishal is approved.

As per ADA Annual report 2015-16 Navy was yet to finalise their SQRs for NAMCA.

Rakesh
Webmaster BR
Posts: 3960
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Rakesh » 10 Oct 2017 06:58

https://twitter.com/sjha1618/status/917053094051045376 --> Wrote this note on India's Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) project a few years ago

A note on India's Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) project
http://www.news18.com/blogs/india/saura ... 48657.html

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

https://twitter.com/sjha1618/status/917064431351115776 --> I make a case for India to invest seriously in its Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft programme.

IAF needs to build its own aircraft
http://www.deccanherald.com/content/619 ... s-own.html

Rakesh
Webmaster BR
Posts: 3960
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Rakesh » 10 Oct 2017 07:02

Directed at people who believe the Mk2 is a Tech Demonstrator :roll:

https://twitter.com/zubin49/status/917083866422173696 ---> There seems to be focused lethargy not to develop the MKII...imperative for progressing technologies simultaneously for the AMCA.

Rakesh
Webmaster BR
Posts: 3960
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Rakesh » 10 Oct 2017 07:05

https://twitter.com/sjha1618/status/917361625606217728 --> The AMCA project will not take that long If firm ASQRs are made on the basis of technology readiness levels with producibility in mind.


Return to “Military Issues & History Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: brar_w and 27 guests