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AMCA News and Discussions

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby NRao » 16 Feb 2017 14:50

XPosting.

sivab wrote:https://twitter.com/YusufDFI/status/832063675338874881

Yusuf Unjhawala ‏@YusufDFI 38m38 minutes ago
He also said that we have managed to make single crystal blade. Won't go on Kaveri but for future engine for AMCA


shiv, you heard same?

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Pratyush » 16 Feb 2017 15:51

I have herd the name and iirc Yusuf is a member as well.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Bharadwaj » 16 Feb 2017 15:54

Livefist reporting 2035 service entry for AMCA. This means our not so friendly neighbor to the north will have a low observable advantage for some 15 odd years unless we stop dithering on the fgfa immediately. Or go with a begging bowl to unkil for the f-35....

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby JayS » 16 Feb 2017 16:15

brar_w wrote:Movement on the F414 Enhanced

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4752&p=2116274#p2116274


Good news for India. Thanks for the update.

NRao, thanks for the nice summary. Just one quick comment. That 0.5B or 1B would be only so that GE will start making the engine. That's does not buy you any ToT. For ToT we will have to pay more. And Brahmos is not a great JV model if the aim is to master critical technologies.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby nam » 16 Feb 2017 18:26

Bharadwaj wrote:Livefist reporting 2035 service entry for AMCA. This means our not so friendly neighbour to the north will have a low observable advantage for some 15 odd years unless we stop dithering on the fgfa immediately. Or go with a begging bowl to unkil for the f-35....


Read this on livefist. The timelines will make AMCA another LCA type exercise, where we would be playing catch up, although we wanted to leap frog. By now we should had a FSE/ Japanese like prototype ready. Adbul Kalam's famous quote of "sixth nation syndrome" will still haunt us in 2035 when AMCA will be in production. We will be inducted 5th gen, when the big boys will rolling out un-manned combat jets.

Given that most nations, including us are doing F22/F35 ish jets, I am very tempted to say the original MCA design should be revisited with a objective to make it manned & un-manned. Even if it is delayed to 2040, at-least we will not be playing catch up. Given that potentially we will 3rd largest GDP around 2035, do we see us inducting AMCA at this time?

I really fear we are setting up for a LCA round 2.

In the meantime, use IN's rfp to get F-35 and for IAF if T-50 does not work out.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby nirav » 16 Feb 2017 18:37

A review of the LCA is needed.
If we choose to continue on the same path, there is no way of a 2035 service date !

It's acknowledged that unless and until FSED starts, the project hadn't been sanctioned.

That I believe has NOT happened for the AMCA.

Once that's done, 8-10 years to first flight is industry standard.
Then comes the most difficult part, certifying it. Another decade at the minimum,might be more.
And finally then,production.

We are in 2017, the engine hadn't been selected yet.not sure if the design is too.and there is no FSED.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby nam » 16 Feb 2017 18:56

I have the opinion, (at the risk of getting some angry responses), that IAF is not interested in AMCA.

I hear manpower shortages in ADA when we happily waste 200 million on T-50 with zero output.

Until GOI/IAF massively expands resources on AMCA, this is another wild goose chase by IAF.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby nirav » 16 Feb 2017 18:58

I agree.
I also agree with your risk assessment.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby deejay » 16 Feb 2017 20:06

nam wrote:I have the opinion, (at the risk of getting some angry responses), that IAF is not interested in AMCA.

I hear manpower shortages in ADA when we happily waste 200 million on T-50 with zero output.

Until GOI/IAF massively expands resources on AMCA, this is another wild goose chase by IAF.


:) I heard the chief yesterdin and some other senior guys - they are banking on the AMCA. I'll see if I can scan a copy of the interview published in one of the Aero Show news dailies.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby nirav » 16 Feb 2017 20:18

deejay wrote:
nam wrote:I have the opinion, (at the risk of getting some angry responses), that IAF is not interested in AMCA.

I hear manpower shortages in ADA when we happily waste 200 million on T-50 with zero output.

Until GOI/IAF massively expands resources on AMCA, this is another wild goose chase by IAF.


:) I heard the chief yesterdin and some other senior guys - they are banking on the AMCA. I'll see if I can scan a copy of the interview published in one of the Aero Show news dailies.


deejay saar,
this is music to my ears.
hope it qualifies as ample 'support' by the IAF.Eagerly awaiting the interview ;)

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby nam » 16 Feb 2017 20:33

deejay wrote: I heard the chief yesterdin and some other senior guys - they are banking on the AMCA. I'll see if I can scan a copy of the interview published in one of the Aero Show news dailies.


I want to believe it, however I cant until I see real money. Forget money, I would believe when ADA puts a proposal to double it's workforce.
As we have seen countless articles on "We are forced to buy Rafale because LCA is late", the 2035 version will be "We are forced to buy Neuron because AMCA is late".

Just like LCA, probably IAF want AMCA to be number filler to control the cost. If the GDP is 4 times of today, dont think even money would one of the problems.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby ShauryaT » 16 Feb 2017 21:38

What if we focus AMCA to be an unmanned stealthy sensor detector, so with an AESA, IR, EOTS, RF, RWR, ESM, ECM providing the observation and orientation functions. But let the decision and action functions be controlled by a larger aircraft, staying a few 100 KM's from the sensor detector. The larger aircraft would have the sensor fusion functions on larger processors, with the ability to carry all type of LR A2A, A2G missiles and subsequently uses the stealthy sensor detector craft to cue in these long range weapons.

Advantages:

1. Such an unmanned stealthy AMCA would be cheaper to build and deploy. It would not need supercruise or even supersonic. No sensor fusion needed on the craft. No subsequent safety measures. Being relatively cheaper and unmanned the risk of it being shot down is affordable. You can deploy in mass.
2. All this data being collected from multiple sensor drones is collected and fused on a much large system, say on an IL-76 or C-130 type, let us call this the mother ship
3. Based on mission profile, the C-130 may stock up with A2G or ER BVR A2A weapons or both.
4. The mother ship is also accompanied by 4G fighters as backup
4. The costs for this system in offensive mode would be the relatively low cost sensor detectors and the relatively low cost A2G weapons. The ability to carry them in mass on larger mother ships or non stealthy fighters would be an advantage that will overwhelm most SAM systems.
5. In A2A mode, the cueing offered by the unmanned sensor detector will raise the pK of BVR missiles.

What's the purpose of this. The costs to build a bull blown 5G fighter with all its gizmos for India in meaningful timeframes is not an easy exercise. We are at least 20 years away from it. Instead, should we not focus on building an aircraft that can penetrate enemy air space but yet does not have the all the qualities of a fighter to escape if detected and that is affordable. Also focus on LR, low cost mass deployable weapons.

One huge issue with all 5G fighters is the payload they can carry, while remaining stealthy. The costs simply go up astronomically, when trying to build all this capabilities of a fighter, A2G, sensor detector and fusion on one single manned platform.

Thoughts?

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby nam » 16 Feb 2017 21:47

ShauryaT wrote:What if we focus AMCA to be an unmanned stealthy sensor detector
Thoughts?


Like this :D

Image

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby NRao » 16 Feb 2017 22:28

deejay wrote:
nam wrote:I have the opinion, (at the risk of getting some angry responses), that IAF is not interested in AMCA.

I hear manpower shortages in ADA when we happily waste 200 million on T-50 with zero output.

Until GOI/IAF massively expands resources on AMCA, this is another wild goose chase by IAF.


:) I heard the chief yesterdin and some other senior guys - they are banking on the AMCA. I'll see if I can scan a copy of the interview published in one of the Aero Show news dailies.


Always has been.

Which is why, abut 2 years or so ago, I had said treat the LCA as a tech demo and pack it off.

What is crucial is when do they expect the AMCA to be inducted. 2035 is a slide. And, I suspect it is due to the sequential thinking of HAL/DRDO/ADA/whoever.

nam wrote:
ShauryaT wrote:What if we focus AMCA to be an unmanned stealthy sensor detector
Thoughts?


Like this :D

Image


AMCA can never go back to that. That is a pre 4th Gen paper concept model. Dependent on TVC, which India does not have even today.

ShauryaT sir,

Diff AFs have diff requirements (nothing new there). However, their definitions differ. So, the IAF has a need for "Super-cruise", BUT it was a requirement for entering and exiting a local fist fight, NOT for taking a 5th Gen plane from the East to the West (which is what say the USAF would use it for).

I just HOPE that no one meddles with the AMCA. IT IS the very best effort put forth by India, no two ways about. I would like it to be an independent effort from the LCA - which I do not see happening (too much politics). Granted that the funds are not there to support both at the same time (which is why I would prefer to cut short the LCA - the MK2 is too late to the game IMHO) (that for teh LCA thread).

They never talk much about it and the head of the AMCA project is camera shy (Excellent). But, from what little is out there, the small effort put into the AMCA is much cleaner than the LCA (IMVVHO). From what I can see, the AMCA will beat the FGFA is all aspects (the assumption is India will have access to some sensors that India cannot produce - yet and of course the engine).

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Karan M » 16 Feb 2017 22:43

Guys please take your beliefs about what AMCA should be to the IMA thread or some other one and let this be focused on actual news and details. Waiting for AI details

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby dkhare » 16 Feb 2017 22:45

NRao wrote:I vaguely recall reading that the AESA is chanted to reduce reflections. In fact, IIRC even in a mechanism that supports movement of the face, in an idle position, the face always droops.


That makes sense. I was wondering about this a few pages ago. Thanks for this nugget...

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Indranil » 16 Feb 2017 23:19

I agree with Karan. Please keep your ideas of what AMCA should be to design your own fighter thread.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby NRao » 16 Feb 2017 23:22

What's the purpose of this. The costs to build a bull blown 5G fighter with all its gizmos for India in meaningful timeframes is not an easy exercise. We are at least 20 years away from it. Instead, should we not focus on building an aircraft that can penetrate enemy air space but yet does not have the all the qualities of a fighter to escape if detected and that is affordable. Also focus on LR, low cost mass deployable weapons.


I cannot talk to the sensor package. But the AMCA can be built, etc much faster. We tend to forget that a LOT of work has been done for the past 10 years. This is not a project like the LCA, where there was a lack of a variety of things, most important the learning curve was very steep.

The AMCA, placed a time scale, is a way more mature product.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby shiv » 17 Feb 2017 06:59

nam wrote:
Image

In 2017 this image looks like nangananga child to me

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby NRao » 17 Feb 2017 07:34

Do Boeing, GE have US permission to Make in India?

..........................

Pearson is betting on the over 700 engineers who work on design and take charge of manufacturing parts of GE's commercial aero engines, at its India centre in Bengaluru, to push for local co-development of the engine for AMCA, which ADA is developing.

India has begun preliminary design work on the stealth aircraft, but has not launched a programme officially.

GE is looking to partner with ADA, but it also requires a US government approval to collaborate on military programmes before its Bengaluru team can work on the jet engine programme.

The Bengaluru team has worked on the GE-9D engine that powers the Boeing 777 planes and the engine that powers the A380 aircraft. It is also developing the 9X, which the local team in India is collaborating on for the replacement engine of Boeing 777-9D.

"The foundation is already here built over 17 years," said Pearson.

GE, which has a manufacturing facility in Pune whose 40 per cent contribution is engine components, says it could meet the mandated 50 per cent requirement of local production for defence contracts within India.

"We can deliver on our commitments as and when we see more orders," said Alok Nanda, general manager, (India engineering operations) at GE.
Last edited by NRao on 17 Feb 2017 07:56, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby NRao » 17 Feb 2017 07:40

Will Need Larger Rafale Order For True Make In India: Dassault CEO

France is in discussions to assist India with its next generation Advanced Multi-role Combat Aircraft (AMCA) as part of the offset obligations of the Rafale fighter jet deal, Dassault CEO Eric Trappier has said.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Viv S » 17 Feb 2017 13:36

Its good to see ADA being realistic about its targets. Its often hurt its credibility badly by making promises on delivery that it knew (or ought to have known) weren't doable. Though given the timelines it may be more practical to focus on a UCAV (AURA) instead rather than reinvent the wheel.

AMCA:
First flight - 2030
Low Rate Production - 2035
Series production/IOC ~ 2040

(Just for context; the F-35 production is scheduled to conclude in 2037. Roughly coinciding with the advent of the F/A-XX or alternative 6th gen models.)

EXCLUSIVE: India’s 5th Gen AMCA Targets 2030
Shiv Aroor Feb 16 2017

Cmde C.D. Balaji, chief at the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) met with Livefist at the Aero India show for a chat on the programme. ‘This will be our first big learning process. We need to be sure about the conformal antennas and shapes before we finalise the airframe,’ he says. Another very crucial application the team plans to bring into play is computational electromagnetics, to simulate in parallel how the concept jet deals with radar and other assaults built to beat stealth.

‘About 60-70% of the stealth we intend will come from the aircraft’s shape. The rest we are discovering as we develop the aircraft. Nothing like this has ever been attempted before,’ Balaji says. An AMCA model debuted at Aero India 2009, the first time anyone got a sense of what the ADA was looking to build.

The team at ADA expects full-scale engineering development till the prototype stage to take at least a decade. Livefist also learnt that the team now has a specific timeframe for a first flight: 2030, with low-rate production to begin in 2035. ‘If you consider that the LCA Mk.1 will be built till 2024 and the LCA Mk.2, when ordered, should be built between 2030-35, then 2035 is good target for production of the AMCA,’ Balaji says.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby brar_w » 17 Feb 2017 21:34

Not sure what to make of this. Does he mean they will offer cooperation or compete if one is sought? If they are already involved it will jeopardize GE' and perhaps even RR's involvement when it comes to propulsion enhancements.

Russia will take part in the creation of the Indian aircraft 5th generation AMCA

BANGALORE / India / 16 February. / TASS /. Russia will take part in the creation of the Indian aircraft fifth generation Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA), told reporters director of international cooperation and regional policy of the state corporation "Rostec" Victor treasure. "We will participate for sure," - he said, responding to a question.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby NRao » 17 Feb 2017 23:20

^^^^^^

Russians have always had a role via TVC. I think he is hedging (wisely) in case the US offer, which hinges on the F-16 deal, falls through. Given that the FGFA is in cold storage and ADA has always maintained AMCA is 5.5 gen I doubt there is much to gain, there are a few things to gain for sure, from Russia.


AMCA:
First flight - 2030
Low Rate Production - 2035
Series production/IOC ~ 2040

(Just for context; the F-35 production is scheduled to conclude in 2037. Roughly coinciding with the advent of the F/A-XX or alternative 6th gen models.)


How about the Chinese? They could have about a 100 stealth machines by 2030.



I think India needs to field a 60% 5th gen ASAP. And not wait to perfect every component.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby brar_w » 17 Feb 2017 23:26

For the lack of knowledge, what exactly (attributes) makes the AMCA a 5.5 generation platform? For that matter besides directed energy applications, what really provides that half a generation of leap in requirements?

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby negi » 17 Feb 2017 23:35

The timeframe by it is supposed to come it better be 5.5 otherwise log kya kahenge :)

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby NRao » 18 Feb 2017 00:07

ON "5.5", to be fair, it was mentioned in relation to the FGFA. So, there could have been some political angle to that. Dunno.

On Balaji saying all this, two things come to mind:

1) I thought the AMCA team was diff. ????????
2) So, speculation on my part, but, I think Balaji is trying to protect the LCA MK2 (which I think is dead in the water). The AMCA team had requested the release of funds. That request was not granted. And, there was the notion of LCA Mk1 -> LCA Mk2 -> AMCA. But that was 2011ish(?) and the MK2 was supposed to have been completed by 2020 or thereabouts.

Well, along came LCA Mk1A, which pushed the LCA Mk2, which is to be expected.

3) I suspect the AMCA group has made sufficient noise for Balaji to make this statement. IF the AMCA group gets some funds, it should mean those funds are diverted from the Mk2. And, that is causing teh pain within the Mk2 group = Balaji.

????

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Neshant » 18 Feb 2017 08:57


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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby NRao » 18 Feb 2017 09:12

ADA CONTINUES TO WORK ON STEALTHY AMCA

Seems more like the original news items:

Director of New Delhi’s Aeronautic Development Agency C.D. Balaji says that the great majority of work for the shape of the AMCA has been completed.

The biggest challenge involves the development of Radar Absorbent Material (RAM).

..................................................

The engine has not been determined, but is likely to be either the General Electric F414, which powers the Boeing F/A-18 E/F Super Hornet, or the Eurojet EJ200, which powers the Eurofighter Typhoon.

At the 2015 iteration of Aero India, an ADA official told that an advanced version of a local engine, the Gas Turbine Research Establishment Kaveri, could eventually be used in AMCA.

............................

Balaji says that once the engine is determined, it will take three or four more years to develop the aircraft.

The first flight for the AMCA is planned for 2025. This marks a notable retreat from the ADA’s position in 2013, when a first flight was expected by the end of the decade.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby arshyam » 18 Feb 2017 12:49

Pls excuse if already posted, this thread's got a life of its own of late.. :)

Image

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby arshyam » 18 Feb 2017 12:50

Image

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby arshyam » 18 Feb 2017 12:50

I just love those smooth lines...

Image

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby NRao » 19 Feb 2017 04:41

As a data point on the engine for the AMCA, as it relates to the F414. From liveFist.

Image

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby brar_w » 19 Feb 2017 04:48

The sheer number of platforms that will end up using the F404/414 family is going to be quite impressive. Add the F414 on the KAI KF-X and the F404 for the USAF T-X. Most likely the USN MQ-25 will use either the 404 or 414 as well.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Cybaru » 19 Feb 2017 05:20

So they are talking about a higher thrust engine for AMCA. That is interesting data point.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Cybaru » 19 Feb 2017 05:22

NRao wrote:The first flight for the AMCA is planned for 2025. This marks a notable retreat from the ADA’s position in 2013, when a first flight was expected by the end of the decade.

Just because there is talk doesn't mean the prototype can happen. IAF hasn't chosen the engines yet. Once they decide on that, work can happen around the chosen engine. Perhaps the PAKFA saga has delayed things for other projects as well.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby brar_w » 19 Feb 2017 05:26

Regardless of what engine they pick they'll likely look at an uprated or most advanced version working closely with the aircraft design team. They don't have to fly the demonstrators or prototype aircraft with the definitive version of the engine. If it' the F414, you could build a prototype around the F414, and wait till the F414-Enhanced is ready with the changes that are agreed upon along with the design team. Same with the Eurojet or any other engine that they may look at. If the USN goes and ahead and funds the Enhanced version of the F414 you could have something in a flight test program by 2021-2022.

On Korea's KF-X GE has proposed number of engine enhancements that build on the baseline F-414 they deliver. This lines up nicely with the KF-X plans to incrementally add 5th generation capability. No doubt that both GE and KAI/DAPA would pick up from where the USN funds GE given that they will leverage what the USN develops for its vast 414 fleet that it expects to sustain through the 2040's and with the their testing and certification infrastructure.

Image
Last edited by brar_w on 19 Feb 2017 06:05, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby NRao » 19 Feb 2017 05:43

What might have helped is if the 3rd bullet point mentioned that the engine "delivered for the LCA MK2" was the GE F414 INS6. And that the "Derivative option engine for the AMCA" is proposed to be an enhanced version of the INS6.

Undoubtedly it would still have a lot in common with any other F414, but that distinction, IMHO, needs to be made, even though it is a subtle one.

Also, the proposed increase in thrust is from 98 kN to 110 kN. Supposedly the 220 kN is more than adequate for the AMCA - room for growth and errors.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Cybaru » 19 Feb 2017 06:03

I think epe is supposed to be in the 126kn range. Specs for USN on GE page.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby brar_w » 19 Feb 2017 06:07

Cybaru wrote:I think epe is supposed to be in the 126kn range. Specs for USN on GE page.


The Current "Enhanced" sitting on GE's F414 page targets 26,000 lb/116 Kn.

http://www.geaviation.com/engines/docs/ ... hanced.pdf


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