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AMCA News and Discussions

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby NRao » 31 Mar 2017 03:09

An article from 2012, that provides some insight about stealth expectations in Indian crafts.

India Explores Low-Observable Aircraft Technologies

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Neshant » 31 Mar 2017 06:47

6th gen has barely been defined. Although it will incorporate the manned/unmanned concept.

------

6th Generation Fighters are already taking shape

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqah2_Avxf4

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Neshant » 31 Mar 2017 07:07

NRao wrote:Like I have stated, the AMCA is a rather mature project - already.


In what way?

It still sounds very vague like the FGFA "smoke & mirrors" project.

I have not seen nor read any overall plan for the AMCA. Just some vague concepts of stealth, high speed on-board data buses, some vague ramblings about sensors..etc.

What part of the above cannot already be incorporated onto the LCA MK2? And what real advantage does it offer?

There has been no information on the AMCA's design released and no public discussion about what really this so called 5th gen plane design will offer. Some small group of individuals seem to have decided on what it should be without consulting stake holders.

Its not a good sign. I predict the AMCA project will end in chaos as mid way through they discover it offers nothing evolutionary let alone revolutionary as an aircraft.

After reading that terrible plan to make the LCA an unmanned fighter where little thought other than making the aircraft fly way points and drop its load has been given, the AMCA plan (more like lack of it) looks suspect.

Have a debate on the design of this plane BEFORE rushing ahead and making bad decisions.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby NRao » 13 Apr 2017 02:10

Have been running into a bunch of old AWST articles on the AMCA. Posting some xtracts to provide some continuity (hopefully).

New Design For India's Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft

Feb 11, 2013.



India has unveiled an updated design for its fifth-generation fighter concept, known as the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA).

Representations of the fighter have changed often in the last few years. But the scale 1:8 model of the concept displayed at last week’s Aero India 2013 show in Bengaluru is understood to be the final airframe and platform with which the program will proceed.

The twin-engine, stealthy, multirole fighter was first unveiled at the Aero India show in 2009, in the form of a metallic wind-tunnel model. At the show in 2011, a reshaped model saw its designers give it an F-22-like sensibility.

The final design, or at least the one the concept designers have put out this year, is strongly reminiscent of the Northrop Grumman YF-23 experimental fighter prototype that lost to the Lockheed-Martin led F-22 Raptor program in 1991.




A senior scientist at the AMCA directorate in Bengaluru says, “We have the fourth-generation Tejas on the one hand. But evolutionary technologies we are developing for the AMCA are on the cutting edge. They hope to be comparable with the best in the world. If we need a little help along the way in the interests of pragmatism, cost and time, we will study the feasibility of cooperation. But this ideally needs to be a fully Indian program. Sensitive stealth technologies will not be shared by foreign technology companies.”

A brief list of the ambitious technologies that India’s Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) hopes to equip the AMCA with includes a panoramic active matrix cockpit, triplex fly-by-light electro-optic architecture, serpentine air intakes to suppress radar signature and an optic-fiber-based digital flight control computer.

Describing the AMCA as a “fifth-generation-plus” platform, DRDO chief Vijay Saraswat recently said, “Work on the AMCA will begin soon. This will involve identifying technologies and systems for the aircraft.”

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Kartik » 19 Apr 2017 03:56

AMCA layout from ADA's annual report 2015-2016

Image

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby JayS » 19 Apr 2017 12:41

Weren't they working on conformal antennas for AMCA..?? Saw something in AI2017. From the ADA AR 2016:
Development of V/UHF Conformal Antenna for LCA MK2 done.
Under Ghatak program, mention of Conformal Antenna development work.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Prasad » 19 Apr 2017 22:40

Yeah they're working on conformal antennae.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 20 Apr 2017 21:31

from where did idrw got this pic from?
http://idrw.org/official-update-of-indi ... ore-132018

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Prasad » 20 Apr 2017 23:41

From some video I think. I remember seeing it somewhere, most likely a video at ada/drdo stalls.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby malushahi » 21 Apr 2017 00:36


ramana
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby ramana » 21 Apr 2017 01:45

malushahi wrote:^^^ ada annual report, pg 31



I thought from their secret sources!

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Austin » 22 May 2017 00:07

India pushing full steam ahead on stealth fighter plane project

The first prototype could be built in 10 to 12 years if all goes according to the Aeronautical Development Agency’s plan, government sources said

India is pushing full steam ahead on its plan to build an indigenous stealth fighter plane amid an uncertainty surrounding the proposed India-Russian fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA), a top government official said on Friday.

While the advanced medium combat aircraft (AMCA) is still on the drawing board, doubts over the multi-billion dollar programme to develop the stealth fighter with the Russians appears to have lent fresh urgency to the AMCA project. Only the US, Russia and China have such programmes.

The first prototype could be built in 10 to 12 years if all goes according to the Aeronautical Development Agency’s plan, government sources said.

“If the FGFA project doesn’t work out for some reason, the AMCA could be a good alternative. However, that would be a long term plan as production will begin only around 2035-37,” a senior Indian Air Force (IAF) officer said.

A three-member government committee is all set to submit its report on the viability of the FGFA programme. The panel was set up 3 months ago.

India plans to cooperate with foreign military contractors on the AMCA project but no decision has been taken so far. European and American firms have offered technical consultancy for the stealth fighter programme.

Sources said India has also conveyed to Russia that the FGFA project should bring in technology that benefits the proposed Indian programme.

The sources said ADA was in discussions with companies such as Dassault Aviation and Boeing for the project but it would be premature to comment on who the foreign collaborator could be.

“It’s too early to even speculate about that as we have not even tested the AMCA airframe. That’s still around a year away. So all options are open,” the sources said.

The IAF has 33 fighter squadrons compared to an optimum strength of 42. It is hoping to beef up its combat potential with the induction of the Tejas light combat aircraft, more Sukhoi-30s, Rafale jets, the FGFA and a medium-weight fighter that could be built in India in collaboration with a foreign vendor.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Neshant » 22 May 2017 07:59

Kartik wrote:AMCA layout from ADA's annual report 2015-2016
Image


It looks so much like the Mitsubishi's Shinshin.

Image

With the engines so close together, can this plane maneuver well?
Russian planes (Su-30, Mig-29) have their engines spaced far apart which gives it the ability to turn in creative ways.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Neshant » 22 May 2017 08:39

DRDO needs to start X-plane (experimental aircraft) projects to test out various concepts in parallel with working on deployable aircraft like AMCA.

Working on deployable aircraft does not allow for taking any design risks. That's because if the design proves to be unworkable, it sets the program back many years. The result is HAL will take no risks.

But design risks are needed to make progress in fighter design.

I was critical of HAL's proposal to experiment with the Tejas as an unmanned plane since they are behind schedule on everything.

But now I'm thinking if they don't experiment with new concepts and plane designs, there will be zero innovation incorporated into deployable aircraft.

They should pursue an unmanned Tejas prototype to learn as much as they can along with more X-plane designs. The payoff will be further into the future. But unless they develop the culture of innovation in design, we will always be dependent on foreign arms supplies doing the R&D.

China cannot cooperate with western/russian/japanese partners, but India can. Use this great advantage of becoming a hub for X-plane design with foreign partners with market sizes too small to sustain these activities.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby JayS » 22 May 2017 10:42

Austin wrote:India pushing full steam ahead on stealth fighter plane project

The first prototype could be built in 10 to 12 years if all goes according to the Aeronautical Development Agency’s plan, government sources said

India is pushing full steam ahead on its plan to build an indigenous stealth fighter plane amid an uncertainty surrounding the proposed India-Russian fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA), a top government official said on Friday.

While the advanced medium combat aircraft (AMCA) is still on the drawing board, doubts over the multi-billion dollar programme to develop the stealth fighter with the Russians appears to have lent fresh urgency to the AMCA project. Only the US, Russia and China have such programmes.

The first prototype could be built in 10 to 12 years if all goes according to the Aeronautical Development Agency’s plan, government sources said.

“If the FGFA project doesn’t work out for some reason, the AMCA could be a good alternative. However, that would be a long term plan as production will begin only around 2035-37,” a senior Indian Air Force (IAF) officer said.

A three-member government committee is all set to submit its report on the viability of the FGFA programme. The panel was set up 3 months ago.

India plans to cooperate with foreign military contractors on the AMCA project but no decision has been taken so far. European and American firms have offered technical consultancy for the stealth fighter programme.

Sources said India has also conveyed to Russia that the FGFA project should bring in technology that benefits the proposed Indian programme.

The sources said ADA was in discussions with companies such as Dassault Aviation and Boeing for the project but it would be premature to comment on who the foreign collaborator could be.

“It’s too early to even speculate about that as we have not even tested the AMCA airframe. That’s still around a year away. So all options are open,” the sources said.

The IAF has 33 fighter squadrons compared to an optimum strength of 42. It is hoping to beef up its combat potential with the induction of the Tejas light combat aircraft, more Sukhoi-30s, Rafale jets, the FGFA and a medium-weight fighter that could be built in India in collaboration with a foreign vendor.


Too long for first prototype. IMO ADA should go for a flight prototype for Aero config testing, FCS development and real life RCS measurements in 5yr time frame. This particular prototype/s can be built with existing LCA technologies with the PDR stage aero configuration with GE F414 (whichever available version). Assembly it quickly with available subsystems without much modifications. This should let them start flight testing much earlier (a large part of flight envelop can be easily covered by this type of prototype much early in the program, giving real life data for fine tuning component and system level design) in the program. Not only this would let them fine tune Aero, RCS, but also FCS and give IAF a chance to give feedback on real system rather than only on simulators. They can even test TV on this prototype and integrate it in FCS. Doing it the LCA way (serially) would take too long time. 10yr for first prototype is simply too old school in 2020.

Things like co-cured co-bonded structure, better composite materials for enhanced radar evasion, RAM coatings, internal systems such as avionics and all bells and whistles will come later. By the time full fledged prototype comes in 10yr time frame, a lot of other things which are not depending on them will be sorted with this kind of approach. Similarly sub-systems such as Radar, EW, weapons, can be tested on modified LCA on multiple parallel tracks.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby JayS » 22 May 2017 10:45

Neshant wrote:With the engines so close together, can this plane maneuver well?
Russian planes (Su-30, Mig-29) have their engines spaced far apart which gives it the ability to turn in creative ways.


Please explain the physics behind this - how spaced apart engines help Ru aircrafts take creative twists and turns.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby abhik » 22 May 2017 11:03

The AMCA is like NASA's plan to send a manned mission to Mars - 20 years away for the last 30 years.
If they need another 10-12 years for just the prototype to fly, what work have they done till now?

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Neshant » 22 May 2017 11:52

JayS wrote:Please explain the physics behind this - how spaced apart engines help Ru aircrafts take creative twists and turns.



Supposedly the effect of varying thrust on either engine spaced further apart helps increase rates of turn (not sure in what pitch, roll or yaw).

Also to maximize the effect of TVC, the engines should ideally be some distance apart.

This is what I read but there are a million opinions on this.

Most of the 4+gen aircraft like Rafale and Eurofighter have their engines practically sitting side by side where the wings do most of the turning.

Like everything, there must be a million factors that go into airframer's decision making.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby JayS » 22 May 2017 14:45

Neshant wrote:
JayS wrote:Please explain the physics behind this - how spaced apart engines help Ru aircrafts take creative twists and turns.



Supposedly the effect of varying thrust on either engine spaced further apart helps increase rates of turn (not sure in what pitch, roll or yaw).

Also to maximize the effect of TVC, the engines should ideally be some distance apart.

This is what I read but there are a million opinions on this.

Most of the 4+gen aircraft like Rafale and Eurofighter have their engines practically sitting side by side where the wings do most of the turning.

Like everything, there must be a million factors that go into airframer's decision making.


Well, probably there would be some advantage of having spaced engines with TVC, but it would be small only. Not something which would force you two put engines apart just for that. And Su-27, MiG-29 can do a lot of funky stuff even without TV.


And the reason for the particular config of Su-27 and Mig29 is because they have lifting body design where the channel between the engine pods helps generate a significant amount of lift from the fuselage. But those were the old days. Now with blended body, one could get similar fuselage lift even without having such channel.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby brar_w » 22 May 2017 15:16

Neshant wrote:With the engines so close together, can this plane maneuver well?





Japan's next fighter (Shin Shin is a mere technology demonstrator), KF-X , AMCA or TF-X will all require 5th generation or 5+ generation propulsion in the absence of which there will be considerable pressure on the aero guys from a design, system and weight perspective. That is likely the performance limiting factor for these designs at least in the first half of their service life as better engines are developed.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Liu » 25 May 2017 13:39

<POOF>

Admin note: you are not going to give your "opinions", which are nothing but baiting, so please post only URLs and their interpretations. Next ban is going to be permanent

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby NachiketM » 23 Jun 2017 18:54

Is this thread dead or what ?
No posts for more than a month ???


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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby chola » 23 Jun 2017 20:46

NachiketM wrote:Is this thread dead or what ?
No posts for more than a month ???


This one?
Image

I think it is already flying!

Image

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Anurag » 24 Jun 2017 02:39

chola wrote:
NachiketM wrote:Is this thread dead or what ?
No posts for more than a month ???


This one?
Image

I think it is already flying!

Image


This is a joke, right?

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Will » 24 Jun 2017 19:23

India needs to tie up consulatancy on critical components for the AMCA and not make the mistakes made during the LCA. N the biggest mistake would be tying up with US companies. Go with the Europeans even though they might not have as much experience as the US.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby brar_w » 24 Jun 2017 19:36

AdA will likely work with both European and US companies among others to support the AMCA project. Whether that is using facilities or engineering services or prolonged consultancy if and when required. The AdA AMCA team was in Buffalo where they brought the AMCA configurations to Calspan's transonic wind tunnel.

One important aspect of 5th generation (and beyond) designs is how propulsion, thermal management are closely integrated given the mission system demands and signature requirements. When they select a propulsion supplier they will have to create processes and bridges in order to create those capabilities in an Indian specific variant of the engine to address some of those things. Same would apply if concepts such as low observable feature incorporating nozzles, or TV options are explored. That could be RR or it could be GE so it could go either way.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby NRao » 09 Jul 2017 16:48

IAF Needs To Build Its Own Aircraft

June 29, 2017.

Saurav Jha

Our requirement for the next generation fighter aircraft will be required in early 2030 which should have all required capabilities in the terms of agility, maneuverability, load carrying capacity, low radar cross section (low observation features) and super cruise


Perhaps, the chief reason why it took so long for Lig­ht Combat Aircraft (LCA) program to reach fruition was the fact that India did not have an aerospace ecosystem in place to support the project at the time of its inception.

This, in turn, was primarily due to the unfortunate hiatus in domestic fighter development that followed the creation of the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) HF-24 Marut which left India devoid of the necessary human and capital resources for next generation system development.

Instead, infrastructure had to be developed concurrently even as the LCA program was progressed, contributing to time and cost overruns. Therefore, it is imperative that India move ahead with the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) project without further delay to consolidate and build upon the aerospace capability acquired via the LCA program.

A serious AMCA effort will not only help India enhance its design pedigree but also enable it to move up the value chain in what should be a key ‘Make in India’ manufacturing sector. Besides the second order technological benefits that would accrue to India’s aerospace sector, AMCA also holds the potential to become an aircraft that can be tailored to Indian Air Force’s (IAF) doctrinal requirements.

Despite what critics say, it is undeniable that the LCA program has engendered a credible domestic aerospace eco-system with potential for further development. Due to the project, a range of standard test facilities have been set up by the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), which manages the overall LCA development program. Today, India also has a contemporary National Flight Test Centre thanks to the LCA effort.

On the industrial side of things, several companies are involved in the HAL Tejas (LCA) program and some of them are now global Tier-II and III suppliers. They have cut their teeth with this project that has seen the indigenous development of major sub-components such as an aircraft-mounted accessories gearbox, carbon-carbon brake discs, heat exchangers, hydraulic and fuel valves etc.

By value, more than 60% of the components going into the HAL Tejas MK-I are now indigenous and the aircraft’s indigenous content is sought to be raised further through greater outsourcing by HAL.

Today, out of an order of 20 ‘initial operation clearance’ standard Tejas MK-I, four have already been delivered to the IAF by HAL, with 20 more MK-Is to be delivered in ‘final operational clearance’ standard subsequently. What is more, another 83 Tejas MK-IA with improvements such as an airborne electronically scanned array (AESA) radar are also firmly projected.

With these orders, it can be said that the focus of the LCA program has now moved to the production side of things where HAL should ideally take the lead with hand holding from ADA. To be sure, ADA is also committed to the development of the Tejas MK-II as well the naval LCA project.

Nevertheless, it is time that ADA used its core technological strengths garnered via the LCA program in areas such as avionics, flight control laws and computational fluid dynamics to progress the AMCA project to the full-scale engineering development (FSED) phase. Currently, the AMCA project started on the basis of a preliminary staff qualitative requirement from the IAF is in the preliminary design phase.

Around Rs 150 crore has already been spent on the project with progress made on finalising the aircraft’s stealthy aerodynamic configuration as well as its in-board and structural layout. Work on next generation cockpit displays and weapons release testing from a mock internal bay is also underway.

The AMCA is envisaged to be firmly in the ‘medium’ category with a maximum take-off weight of 24.2 tonnes and will feature a large weapons bay that can accommodate a payload of 3 tonnes. Overall, it will have fifth generation (5G) features such as radar and infrared signature management, supercruise and on-board sensor fusion.

Unevenly Developed

However, the technology for the above mentioned 5G features is unevenly developed in India at the moment and a wide-ranging effort drawing in a number of DRDO labs will be required to realise the same. In particular, technology related to radar absorbent materials, conformal antennae and flush air data sensors will need to be matured.

As such, it is time the central government sanctioned the funds required for this overarching effort to expedite matters. It seems that a sum of Rs 3,000 crore-Rs 4,000 crore will be enough to create three-four prototypes in a seven-eight year period.

Successful technology demonstration by itself will strengthen India’s hand at the world aerospace table. Indeed, if the AMCA program had been seriously underway, the Russians would perhaps have been more flexible in negotiations related to technology sharing for the fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) program.

If anything, the FGFA program has shown that it will not be that easy for the IAF to ‘mould on demand’ a design that has been developed to the specifications of another air force. To be able to play to its own emerging airpower doctrine in the 21st century, the IAF also needs to ‘build’ its own aircraft at some level by taking ownership of the AMCA project.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby rohitvats » 10 Jul 2017 14:50

The above article is typical of obfuscation which happens with respect to domestic programs. While gunning for a domestic product is a good thing, it does not help the cause when major issues are not highlighted. Because unless you know what and where are the hurdles and acknowledge them, you'll repeat the same mistake.

First -- how come the author forgets to mention the tall objectives built into the LCA program? The ROOT cause of the major delays? And as the CAG Report on LCA project shows, how project management is one of the biggest challenges? Second - any comments on the ridiculous timelines which one keeps on hearing from the stalwarts at DRDO? Third - on ownership: What exactly does 'building' own aircraft means? Will the DRDO allow IAF to manage and steer the project? Same DRDO which balked at the idea of IAF having its own R&D cadre!

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby brar_w » 10 Jul 2017 15:07

By historical standards design maturity (enough to develop advance prototype or technology demonstrator) to initial operational capability is a 15 year process so the MOD should be aiming for the 2030-2035 window for the AMCA. This will be ambitious and would require deep commitment in funding an integrated design and T&E team but this would be a good range to aim for imho.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby darshhan » 10 Jul 2017 15:11

brar_w wrote:By historical standards design maturity (enough to develop advance prototype or technology demonstrator) to initial operational capability is a 15 year process so the MOD should be aiming for the 2030-2035 window for the AMCA. This will be ambitious and would require deep commitment in funding an integrated design and T&E team but this would be a good range to aim for imho.


Will manned fighters still be that relevant then to pursue such a long term agenda? Remember the keyword is "that".

Or should we concentrate our resources on Aura/Ghatak UCAV?

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Karan M » 10 Jul 2017 15:14

@ Rohitvats

He actually clearly mentions the biggest challenges.

However, the technology for the above mentioned 5G features is unevenly developed in India at the moment and a wide-ranging effort drawing in a number of DRDO labs will be required to realise the same. In particular, technology related to radar absorbent materials, conformal antennae and flush air data sensors will need to be matured


All the program management in the world, steering by empowered committees of the IAF, or Air Marshals, Sci H's wagehra can do diddly squat if India does not have the necessary technologies for a 5G program, which anyways no country will sell to India... codevelopment offers will come with all sorts of risks and no guarantee either. What will these program managers or IAF folks do if there is nothing to manage or own or steer? They have to sit and twiddle their thumbs.

Add to the above challenges - lack of an adequate domestic powerplant.

Did the Program Management by IAF alone allow India to make an AEW&C aircraft or the fact that thanks to Rajendra & BMD program, DRDO had a team in place able to design a S-Band AESA radar? Which was the defining factor? It should be obvious.

While gunning for a domestic product is a good thing, it does not help the cause when major issues are not highlighted. Because unless you know what and where are the hurdles and acknowledge them, you'll repeat the same mistake.


Which is exactly what he has noticed and addressed. He notes:

Perhaps, the chief reason why it took so long for Lig­ht Combat Aircraft (LCA) program to reach fruition was the fact that India did not have an aerospace ecosystem in place to support the project at the time of its inception.


..which is common sense. The delays due to sanctions, lack of credible domestic answers & building things for scratch are the bulk of the challenge.

This, in turn, was primarily due to the unfortunate hiatus in domestic fighter development that followed the creation of the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) HF-24 Marut which left India devoid of the necessary human and capital resources for next generation system development.

Instead, infrastructure had to be developed concurrently even as the LCA program was progressed, contributing to time and cost overruns. Therefore, it is imperative that India move ahead with the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) project without further delay to consolidate and build upon the aerospace capability acquired via the LCA program.


and suggests:

Nevertheless, it is time that ADA used its core technological strengths garnered via the LCA program in areas such as avionics, flight control laws and computational fluid dynamics to progress the AMCA project to the full-scale engineering development (FSED) phase. Currently, the AMCA project started on the basis of a preliminary staff qualitative requirement from the IAF is in the preliminary design phase.

Around Rs 150 crore has already been spent on the project with progress made on finalising the aircraft’s stealthy aerodynamic configuration as well as its in-board and structural layout. Work on next generation cockpit displays and weapons release testing from a mock internal bay is also underway.


so where is the obfuscation, or claims that the IAF won't be involved or steer the project or this or that.

He is spot on about FSED and the need to move to it ASAP.

One additional source of delay on LCA has been the staggered TD - FSED approach with slow approvals from GOI.

Move fast & figure out the flaws & missing pieces fast. It will help with the FGFA.

IAF R&D cadre etc are sideshows to this discussion. Anyone serious can determine that unless these cadre are recruited from DPSUs/DRDO etc they will be raw and have no program experience. In any program of this magnitude the true experts will be those who have worked on at least 2-3 generations of eqpt, made a bunch of mistakes, learned from them.

Its a good start, but any IAF R&D cadre etc will only be useful in the true sense several programs down the line.

For now, use the LCA team, even some of the retired folks & get things started. The main aim should be to reduce CAG style red tape.

Col HS Shankar of BEL R&D started his own company Alpha Tech. Today, its a competitor to BEL and DRDO is working with it for a bunch of projects. GOI red tape is the biggest problem.

DRDL veterans moved to Brahmos & had it deliver. Key reason for success - available technology from Akash, Prithvi programs and the Russian missile propulsion, seeker and airframe!

SJha is spot on with his assessment.

brar_w
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby brar_w » 10 Jul 2017 15:28

darshhan wrote:
brar_w wrote:By historical standards design maturity (enough to develop advance prototype or technology demonstrator) to initial operational capability is a 15 year process so the MOD should be aiming for the 2030-2035 window for the AMCA. This will be ambitious and would require deep commitment in funding an integrated design and T&E team but this would be a good range to aim for imho.


Will manned fighters still be that relevant then to pursue such a long term agenda? Remember the keyword is "that".

Or should we concentrate our resources on Aura/Ghatak UCAV?



Manned fighters aren't going anywhere. They are and will be an integral part of any air-force through the 2030s, 2040s and beyond and this is reflected in work by all major air forces and MICs in developing future capability in that domain.

nirav
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby nirav » 10 Jul 2017 15:58

S Jha wrote:By value, more than 60% of the components going into the HAL Tejas MK-I are now indigenous and the aircraft’s indigenous content is sought to be raised further through greater outsourcing by HAL.


Greater outsourcing by HAL is intended to get HAL to its desired system integrator role rather than having to manufacture each and every thing. End result is freeing up HAL resources and can be used to achieve a faster production rate.

How does 'greater outsourcing' further increase indegenous content?

What's foreign will be foreign and is outsourced to that foreign company anyway.

Indegenous efforts like the development of the actuators by VSCC will hike the indegenous content.
Not outsourcing.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Prasad » 10 Jul 2017 16:23

By freeing up resources to tackle indegenisation rather than production?

nirav
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby nirav » 10 Jul 2017 16:37

Prasad wrote:By freeing up resources to tackle indegenisation rather than production?


Shri T Suvarna Raju wrote:To increase the production of the aircraft HAL has outsourced major parts of the jet. “We are trying to be an integrator rather than a manufacturer, he said.


http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a ... 532355.ece

Opportunities in outsourcing from HAL website.
https://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&sourc ... Of9q-_ovmA

Karan M
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Karan M » 10 Jul 2017 17:08

What LCA is bringing to the table.

Link:

http://www.hal-india.com/LCA-Tejas%20Di ... ore/M__187


Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) is the principal partner in the LCA programme with Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) acting as the Program Co-ordinator.

LCA-Production Group (LCA-PG) was launched in 2002 at HAL as the designated manufacturing unit for manufacturing the indigenously designed 4.5 generation aircraft – Tejas being designed by ADA.

LCA PG was upgraded as a full fledged Division of HAL and christened as LCA Tejas Division, under Bangalore Complex in April 2014.

LCA Tejas Division took up the challenge of manufacturing the Limited Series Production (LSP) Tejas Aircraft in line with concurrent Engineering Philosophy mode, i.e. concurrent design & productionisation.

Production system at LCA Tejas Division are geared up to handle the state of the art technologies of the Fly by wire Tejas multirole combat aircraft. Being the lightest and smallest in a class of 4.5 generation, Tejas throws up immense challenges to the production units.

The key production drivers in the Tejas aircraft are :

High percentage of carbon fibre composite (90 percent by surface area)
Metallic components with complex geometries from Titanium, Aluminum, maraging steel
Stringent EMI/EMC requirements
Tightly packed Inboards
Fully Integrated avionics, flight control and utility management systems.



So far the 16 LCA (2 Technology Demonstrators, 5 Prototype Aircraft, 7 LSP Aircraft & 1 SP Aircraft, 1 Naval prototype) have been manufactured and more than 2758 flights have been carried out.

LCA Tejas Division has been certified for “AS9100 C & ISO 9001 “QMS by TUV SUD America INC effective from July 2014.

The manufacture of the Series Production Aircraft to be supplied to IAF has commenced.

Initial Operation clearance received on Dec 20, 2013 and “Release to Service Document” handed over to IAF
The First Series Production (SP-1), in the IOC configuration, has successfully completed its maiden flight on the 30th of September 2014 & second flight on 14 Oct 2014.

New structural assembly and Final assembly facilities at HAL have been established for the series production for IAF. Hangars have been created exclusively for the LCA program and structural assembly facilities are fully established to take up production of LCA Tejas aircraft.

Series Production aircraft are being built with assembly jigs calibrated using state of the art Computer Aided Measuring System (Laser Trackers), which is currently the international calibration practice. This will ensure consistent build quality of the aircraft with necessary Interchangeability of parts for ease of maintenance in the operating squadrons. The jigs have been calibrated to 80 microns (0.08 mm) tolerances with respect to 3D Models for inter changeability features and 0.2 mm for contours were used which would ensure high quality standard in structural build.

A state of the art wing assembly facility with a 5 axis CNC wing skin drilling machine has been commissioned to ensure excellent build quality for the Carbon Fibre Composite skin and reduced cycle time for the assembly operations of Wing. This would also ensure elimination of delamination of CFC Skins associated with manual drilling. ? Pylons and Composites Drop Tanks are manufactured in house. A drop tank test station with data acquisition and reporting system is commissioned.

Looms used in LCA are produced in LCA Tejas to stringent Quality requirements for catering EMI-EMC Specifications. Automatic Cable Testers are employed for checking and certification of looms, panels.

LCA Tejas Division has an elaborate Quality Assurance system to handle both in-house production and outsourced activities. A metrology department with coordinate measuring machines, Ultrasound Scanners complement the Quality assurance of parts.


5 Axis CNC Router
CNC Precision Turn Mill Centre
CNC Billet Cutting machine
CNC Vertical Milling centre
Radial Drilling machine
Lathe Cylindrical grinding machine
Universal Milling machine
Surface grinder


LCA Tejas Division is looking forward for subcontractors for the manufacturing programs for Defence customers in the following area:

Machining
Sheet metal forming
CNC / Manual Pipe bending
Surface and heat treatment
Structural assemblies and detail / assembly tool manufacture.

Consultancy in the area of :

Concept design of workstation for marking, drilling, counter sinking and fastening of all structural elements for construction of assembly jigs.
Solution to reduce cycle time for installation of looms on aircraft and upgradation of existing loom shop with state of the art facilities.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby NRao » 10 Jul 2017 18:25

^^^^^^

:( . I searched for the word "Software" and did not find it.

I would think they have used some software to develop the LCA. And, would *expect* to build a more robust one for the AMCA. One which will actually simulate, at the very least, real estate issues at a very granular level. On top of that CFD, etc would be just much greater (which I think they have). VA would be absolutely crucial for an AMCA project.

As long as the AMCA has incremental expectations, based on what they have experienced and the expectations designed into other competitive products, the AMCA should do well.

I hope they build a sparse AMAC in the next 5 years - engine, fuel tanks with IFR, a computer to run the show - just the very, very basics. No need for radar or fancy sensors at this point.

JayS
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby JayS » 10 Jul 2017 19:03

NRao wrote:^^^^^^

:( . I searched for the word "Software" and did not find it.

I would think they have used some software to develop the LCA. And, would *expect* to build a more robust one for the AMCA. One which will actually simulate, at the very least, real estate issues at a very granular level. On top of that CFD, etc would be just much greater (which I think they have). VA would be absolutely crucial for an AMCA project.

Its implied Saar, in LCA project, ADA/NAL built a lot of SW base from literally ZERO capability, CAD, CAF, FEM all. One of their Composite lay up SW is even being used by like of Airbus. Now they have free access to all commercial tools. But that has made them overly relying on them. Yes they still lack the depth to in-house tools which only come with a lot of RnD and experimentation. That will come only over time. But even now its impressive I would say.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby ArjunPandit » 10 Jul 2017 20:08

A noob pooch, what all capabilities of LCA can be utilized or ported to AMCA
1. Radar
2. FBW
3. Armament: Missiles, Bombs
4. Experience in flight testing
5. Aircraft Design


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