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AMCA News and Discussions

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby brar_w » 19 Feb 2018 23:03

Prasad wrote:I'm sure brar saheb will bring in more information but one of the criticisms, drawbacks of the eots in the F-35 was questions about upgradability of the onboard system. An external pod is easier to upgrade than an internal system with its corresponding effect on stealth of course.



The EOTS is an LRU and as long as you are within the same volume you can upgrade the sensor. In fact, Advanced EOTS is currently being developed and could be in flight testing in the next few months to a year. The upgrades convert the pod into a multi-spectral sensor by adding a second SWIR channel and adds other features as well so it is clear that there was margin for growth built in. Of course upgrading external pods will be easier but even there you are still limited by space, weight, and power unless you alter the physical dimensions of the pod. At the end of the day it is a trade off and if RCS is to be preserved for certain missions which require targeting pods then the most optimal solution from an RCS perspective would be to have them integrated.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Prasad » 19 Feb 2018 23:09

Yeah, so it just poses another set of design constraints just like an external one. Will be interesting if any chaiwallahs or panwalahs get to hear about development of an internal EOTS for amca by the yehudis.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Indranil » 20 Feb 2018 00:06

Hoot!!!! This made my say. And on top of that they chose my favorite looking model :D

I think they are going to sacrifice RCS on strike missions anyhow, so an external Litening pod does not bother me.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Indranil » 20 Feb 2018 00:15

sankum wrote:length-17.2m
span-11.3m
Wing area-50 sq.m

Nice ratios. Again going for low wingloading. I can see why they want 220-230 kN. It's amazing what Tejas has enabled.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Rakesh » 20 Feb 2018 00:16

Indranil wrote:It's amazing what Tejas has enabled.

Thank You Sir for highlighting that. People need to understand this.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Rakesh » 20 Feb 2018 00:18

https://twitter.com/sjha1618/status/965507945462222848 ---> AMCA is still in the preliminary design phase. Money for that and the Ghatak UCAV were sanctioned together. But the full scale engineering development of two AMCA tech demonstrators is expected to be sanctioned soon.

https://twitter.com/sjha1618/status/965508478516199425 ---> AMCA test vehicles, if and when they are built, will likely use GE F-414-INS6 engines.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Kartik » 20 Feb 2018 01:13

jaysimha wrote:https://www.ada.gov.in/currentdocs/EOI%20for%20Manufacture%20of%20NGTD.pdf

ADA/COM/IND/EOI/NGTD/2017-2018/SU Date: 16/02/2018

Aeronautical Development Agency is an autonomous Body setup under Ministry of Defence, Governmentof India for research and development of Indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), Tejas. 2. ADA is looking for vendors who can take up “Manufacture of the Next Generation Technology Demonstrator (NGTD)"

:D :)

Proof positive that MRM has lighted the burners under everybody's seat...........


Great find! Thank you!

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Kartik » 20 Feb 2018 01:17

Indranil wrote:Hoot!!!! This made my say. And on top of that they chose my favorite looking model :D

I think they are going to sacrifice RCS on strike missions anyhow, so an external Litening pod does not bother me.


Which one out of these? Personally speaking, I loved the 3B-03 model the most. But I couldn't say which one is shown in the EOI document.

Image

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby nash » 20 Feb 2018 01:24

seems like ADA got the funds or may be sanctioned soon.

March 15 is the deadline so by next FY work will start and we can get some good insight in AI-19

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Kartik » 20 Feb 2018 01:37

Just for the sake of looking at it whenever I read this thread again.

Image

Does look beautiful, doesn't she?!

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Indranil » 20 Feb 2018 01:40

AMCA has been sanctioned. Kartik: 3B-09.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Philip » 20 Feb 2018 05:05

AMCA should take precdence over an LCA MK-2.The long gestation time for it to enter service needs to be reduced as much as possible.With limited funds we need to leapfrog 4th- gen tech given the decade+ lead that the Chinese have over us. Frankly let us not waste our time, money and limited HR skills over the MK-2 if there is going to be a major fund crunch. We should concentrate and focus on the AMCA to replace the 4+ gen. med.fighters starting from around 2030.It is highly possible that by 2025 we may see a Chin stealth fighter in the PAF. We may even see Pak acquire SU-35s if we continue to downgrade our relations with Russia.However one comment about the IAF not worried about loss of RCS and carriage of external stores for the AMCA is ironic in the light of its assessment of the SU-57 not being stealthy enough!

My only doubt about AMCA is its limited size of internal weapons bay.Will it be able to carry BMos, Nirbhay and other large PGMs? The answer is likely to be no though most AAMs should be possible.As a US admiral ( or was it an air force 4* general) said, echoing now retd. Adm. Greenert's comments about " a bomb truck vs sports car " to do the biz, "we are moving from a platform centric approach to a payload centric one".

This is why the IAF requires a dedicated bomber for the same or complement it with a larger FGFA as the US is doing with both F-22 and F-35. Shiv has posted an excellent clip of the Chin.railway to Tibet.Distances are huge to meaningfully attack targets like it.Even upgraded SSukhois will be inferior to a 5th-gen stealth fighter which the Chinese will field in ever increasing numbers from 2020 onwards, and in Tibet where it has been testing its new stealth aircraft.In the context of the PAF and Paki targets, AMCA has greater relevance and meaning as it could use only internal AAM stores to dominate skies over Paki territory, while SS Flankers release 300-450km BMos ASMs at targets within Pak without even having to cross its airspace!

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Indranil » 20 Feb 2018 07:06

My goodness Philip sir,

I am a big supporter of FGFA for IAF, but I don't have to go to very thread to showcase my love for it!

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Philip » 20 Feb 2018 08:54

Only showing the pairing of 2 stealth birds in the USAF also being followerd by the PLAF.Who knows, we could even offer the AMCA to mudder Russia! :rotfl:

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby ArjunPandit » 20 Feb 2018 09:05

Philip wrote:Only showing the pairing of 2 stealth birds in the USAF also being followerd by the PLAF.Who knows, we could even offer the AMCA to mudder Russia! :rotfl:

with F414 INS6??? You seem to be in jolly good mood sir, How about LM F16 line that is being shifted to India as part of MII.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Indranil » 20 Feb 2018 09:44

Philip sir,

You have too many holes in your theories. PAKFA will not be able to carry BRahmos-A as it stands today. In the mini form, it is very unclear whether BRahmos-mini can be carried internally. Most serious observers think it is not. By the way, last time I checked they kept us hanging for BRahmos-A. WE had to do it ourselves.

The FGFA/PAKFA will not be able to carry the Nirbhay internally. People are thinking how to carry long range cruise missiles on fifth gen fighters. Many questions arise. At what point, does the air delivery of BRahmos-A arise? ARe stealth requirements necessitated then? How about stealth shaping of the cruise missiles? It is significantly easier to increase the range of land launched cruise missile. They are doing so for Nirbhay right now!

USAF's fifth gen birds are not differentiated by their weight, but by their roles. F-22 is a thoroughbred air superiority fighter which is getting some strike capabilities as an afterthought. F-35 is a mutirole strike fighter.

To give you a sense of the fifth generation Chinese fighters that you are talking of: the J-20 is woefully underpowered. The J-31 is the niftier of the two. It has the exact same dimensions and hopefully weight, but is powered by two 90 kN engines.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Austin » 20 Feb 2018 10:02

Indranil wrote:To give you a sense of the fifth generation Chinese fighters that you are talking of: the J-20 is woefully underpowered. The J-31 is the niftier of the two. It has the exact same dimensions and hopefully weight, but is powered by two 90 kN engines.


I am not sure if J-20 is under powered , It may need more power is fine like any aircraft but more power would also come at cost of more fuel burn there is trade off there, power would also be a function of its aerodynamics a draggier aircraft would need more power

A 90Kn AMCA would be under powered compared to 110Kn variant but that would be a generic statement as well.

I recollect debate we had in 80's Jags were under powered but the root cause of that was atleast 20 % engine de-rating under extereme hot climatic condition during certain month of the year else it was just rightly powered to do its role.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Prasad » 20 Feb 2018 12:28

Regarding the LDP,
From AI-17 scale model display-
Image

Also, strike with only internal payload.
Image

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Philip » 20 Feb 2018 12:52

True,the LR ASMs would have to be made smaller to fit into the internal bays of the FGFA,but they are developing them. Secondly,The Chinese birds may be underpowered now,but they're already up and flying.Our AMCA is still on paper! By the time the first prototype arrives and flies,you can bet yourself that the series production aircraft will be better powered.The Chinese are single-minded and are on a relentless pursuit of military superiority ,even able to afford parallel programmes,which even the Russians cannot afford as MIG are supposed to have a smaller 5th-gen bird design in their stable but unable to proceed because of funding. Another poser.Which aircraft will be able to launch hyper-BMos too? Certainly not the med. sized AMCA!

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Austin » 20 Feb 2018 16:34

AMCA looks more and more like a "Science Project" , Since the time it was called MCA there has been not much progress beyond CGI or Scale Model , Every AI we see some changes in AMCA model compared to previous AI model displayed but by and large the stastics remains the same since the fine time MCA was conceived at that time it was more ambitious as they has no VS now they have 2 huge ones !

Unless GOI earnestly funds this program and continuous doing so for the project life time we may just not see the AMCA other than Scale Model , From a Full Scale FSED Prototype to FOC , this is atleast 15 years to 20 year long program , the flight testing program would take half of that time and then there are so many nuances with new project and unexpected surprised as Flight Test program progress.

GOI has not even funded the FSED for this program that would be the first basic step for the program to look serious. Else we can continue with Tejas Mk2 and Mk3 type iterative program and order 400 of these types

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby srai » 20 Feb 2018 16:42

^^^
Wasn’t the AMCA undergoing detailed design phase? This was to be 7-years long process, which is coming to an end. They have refined the final design.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby JayS » 20 Feb 2018 16:54

srai wrote:^^^
Wasn’t the AMCA undergoing detailed design phase? This was to be 7-years long process, which is coming to an end. They have refined the final design.


Concept/Preliminary Design is over. Now TD will follow and then FSED.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby JayS » 20 Feb 2018 16:56

Austin wrote:GOI has not even funded the FSED for this program that would be the first basic step for the program to look serious. Else we can continue with Tejas Mk2 and Mk3 type iterative program and order 400 of these types


They are going the Tejas way. Feasibility/Project Definition phase >> TD >> FSED. First one is over, TD is to kick start, which has officially been sanctioned. FSED will in time come along.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby jaysimha » 20 Feb 2018 17:01

My feeling is GoI may select 2 consortium. each one to build 1 piece.
major portion of future production may belong to one that performs better.
This will create competition which will benefit in many ways


like old CDOT. They give the design. u take and bid DoT tender and then manufacture and supply. In a way it was best way. there use to be competition and earnestness among manufacturers at the same time scope for improving the product. Alas,,,all that ended with pandith shokh rum.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Will » 20 Feb 2018 17:38

I sincerely hope that the private sector is roped in from day one of the AMCA project. If not we will see another LCA saga. HAL cant build an IJT yet. For all the noise that no private sector company has the capability to build an aircraft and which holds true for the moment, a start has to be made. Private sector expertise can be built up quickly along the development phase of the AMCA. Leaving it to HAL will add another couple of decades to the project. Also the private sector can help the ADA fill in gaps like they did for the ATV and ATAGS projects by sourcing from around the world and employing the best brains without government policy or salary constraints that public sector organisations are subject to .

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby NRao » 20 Feb 2018 18:54

Austin wrote:AMCA looks more and more like a "Science Project" , Since the time it was called MCA there has been not much progress beyond CGI or Scale Model , Every AI we see some changes in AMCA model compared to previous AI model displayed but by and large the stastics remains the same since the fine time MCA was conceived at that time it was more ambitious as they has no VS now they have 2 huge ones !

.........


That is the narrative for the skin.

I think they have made a good deal of progress on the guts. And where they have not, for the TDs they can borrow from the LCA. On to the engine.

All in all this is very good news. Will take the dates.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Rishi_Tri » 20 Feb 2018 19:58

Downloaded the PDF. Lot of details. Assuming 1st July 2018 start, we should have NGTD by 1st Jan 2022 and flight testing done by 1st Jan 2024. First LSP, if that is the plan could become available by 2025.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby srai » 20 Feb 2018 21:09

JayS wrote:
Austin wrote:GOI has not even funded the FSED for this program that would be the first basic step for the program to look serious. Else we can continue with Tejas Mk2 and Mk3 type iterative program and order 400 of these types


They are going the Tejas way. Feasibility/Project Definition phase >> TD >> FSED. First one is over, TD is to kick start, which has officially been sanctioned. FSED will in time come along.

I thought they were bypassing TD (-> PV -> LSP -> SP) and going for "designed for production" approach instead?

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby VKumar » 20 Feb 2018 22:16

I am an advocate of evolutionary approach. I think that instead of designing AMCA around K10 it may be better to design it around the GE 414 and aim for an early induction, with the next iteration being a design around K10 or whatever is the latest reliable indigenous engine at that time.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Rakesh » 20 Feb 2018 22:17

Initial variants of AMCA will have F414 engine only. Nothing else on the horizon.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Viv S » 20 Feb 2018 22:40

srai wrote:I thought they were bypassing TD (-> PV -> LSP -> SP) and going for "designed for production" approach instead?

TD -> LSP -> SP. Same as the LCH. AFAIK.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Prasad » 20 Feb 2018 22:45

Where are we gonna get the 110kN (is that the design thrust rating?) engines from at the size of the F414?

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Kartik » 20 Feb 2018 23:45

Austin wrote:AMCA looks more and more like a "Science Project" , Since the time it was called MCA there has been not much progress beyond CGI or Scale Model , Every AI we see some changes in AMCA model compared to previous AI model displayed but by and large the stastics remains the same since the fine time MCA was conceived at that time it was more ambitious as they has no VS now they have 2 huge ones !

Unless GOI earnestly funds this program and continuous doing so for the project life time we may just not see the AMCA other than Scale Model , From a Full Scale FSED Prototype to FOC , this is atleast 15 years to 20 year long program , the flight testing program would take half of that time and then there are so many nuances with new project and unexpected surprised as Flight Test program progress.

GOI has not even funded the FSED for this program that would be the first basic step for the program to look serious. Else we can continue with Tejas Mk2 and Mk3 type iterative program and order 400 of these types


I don't agree with you. Science projects don't progress to the level where the design agency can start transferring data on manufacturing processes, tooling, system drawings, drawings for major components, tool design, etc. which are part of the schedule for building TDs.

The AMCA seemingly has quietly progressed past its Design Review phase and that is a big deal.

You need to see the schedule of engineering activities in the EOI to get an idea as to how far along ADA is with the design of the AMCA. The Govt. funded the feasibility studies as well as the PDC till March 2017 as per ADA. The configuration was refined and then accepted by the IAF, which then meant that it was frozen and detailed design activities must have proceeded.

From ADA's Annual Report 2015-2016. Obviously, in another year since then, progress would have been made on actual design of its structures, innards, systems and avionics.

The Government sanction for feasibility studies of design and development of Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) was accorded on 5th Oct 2010, at a cost of Rs.90.5 Crores, for a duration of 1 ½ years initially and subsequently PDC was extended upto 31st March 2017, in order to facilitate the continuation of next generation advanced technology development projects.

11.1 AMCA Feasibility Report:
Feasibility studies have been carried out based on IAF's Top Level Operational Requirements and completed the scope of the project. Feasibility Report was compiled and Review held in November 2013. Feasibility Report was updated in October 2015 with various activities carried out post the reviews and submitted to Air HQ and Hon'ble Raksha Mantri.

11.2 Present Status:
AMCA configuration has been arrived after considerable refinements and it was accepted by Indian Air Force. Currently, the validation tests are being conducted.
These are AMCA intake model of 1:1 scale for RCS test, 2nd campaign of high speed wind tunnel tests, static intake test, dynamic & rotary derivative tests for generating un-steady data etc. Also a simulator has been developed which would be used for sizing the system and r e f i n i n g t h e a r c h i t e c t u r e . T h e technology development and testing projects are being continued at various work centres.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby JTull » 21 Feb 2018 02:26

We've never built a twin engined figher. Lot of work will be needed on optimising the basic airframe design. As someone said, 70% of the stealth is in airframe. Even the FCS will need to be validated afresh.

Then we need additional work on sensors, on armaments, perhaps even on engines. The 5 years it will take to realise the flying TD will be well spent on these. LCA PV/LSP airframes will come in handy for testing those.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby ArjunPandit » 21 Feb 2018 03:11

JTull wrote:We've never built a twin engined figher. Lot of work will be needed on optimising the basic airframe design. As someone said, 70% of the stealth is in airframe. Even the FCS will need to be validated afresh.

Then we need additional work on sensors, on armaments, perhaps even on engines. The 5 years it will take to realise the flying TD will be well spent on these. LCA PV/LSP airframes will come in handy for testing those.

Wouldnt designing a non-stealth variant based out of AMCA be easier as compared to an incremental approach of LCA MK2,...n.
Also, we need to have a name for AMCA now.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby abhik » 21 Feb 2018 07:40

Maruth was twin engined no?

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Austin » 21 Feb 2018 10:37

Kartik wrote:
Austin wrote:AMCA looks more and more like a "Science Project" , Since the time it was called MCA there has been not much progress beyond CGI or Scale Model , Every AI we see some changes in AMCA model compared to previous AI model displayed but by and large the stastics remains the same since the fine time MCA was conceived at that time it was more ambitious as they has no VS now they have 2 huge ones !

Unless GOI earnestly funds this program and continuous doing so for the project life time we may just not see the AMCA other than Scale Model , From a Full Scale FSED Prototype to FOC , this is atleast 15 years to 20 year long program , the flight testing program would take half of that time and then there are so many nuances with new project and unexpected surprised as Flight Test program progress.

GOI has not even funded the FSED for this program that would be the first basic step for the program to look serious. Else we can continue with Tejas Mk2 and Mk3 type iterative program and order 400 of these types


I don't agree with you. Science projects don't progress to the level where the design agency can start transferring data on manufacturing processes, tooling, system drawings, drawings for major components, tool design, etc. which are part of the schedule for building TDs.

The AMCA seemingly has quietly progressed past its Design Review phase and that is a big deal.

You need to see the schedule of engineering activities in the EOI to get an idea as to how far along ADA is with the design of the AMCA. The Govt. funded the feasibility studies as well as the PDC till March 2017 as per ADA. The configuration was refined and then accepted by the IAF, which then meant that it was frozen and detailed design activities must have proceeded.

From ADA's Annual Report 2015-2016. Obviously, in another year since then, progress would have been made on actual design of its structures, innards, systems and avionics.

The Government sanction for feasibility studies of design and development of Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) was accorded on 5th Oct 2010, at a cost of Rs.90.5 Crores, for a duration of 1 ½ years initially and subsequently PDC was extended upto 31st March 2017, in order to facilitate the continuation of next generation advanced technology development projects.

11.1 AMCA Feasibility Report:
Feasibility studies have been carried out based on IAF's Top Level Operational Requirements and completed the scope of the project. Feasibility Report was compiled and Review held in November 2013. Feasibility Report was updated in October 2015 with various activities carried out post the reviews and submitted to Air HQ and Hon'ble Raksha Mantri.

11.2 Present Status:
AMCA configuration has been arrived after considerable refinements and it was accepted by Indian Air Force. Currently, the validation tests are being conducted.
These are AMCA intake model of 1:1 scale for RCS test, 2nd campaign of high speed wind tunnel tests, static intake test, dynamic & rotary derivative tests for generating un-steady data etc. Also a simulator has been developed which would be used for sizing the system and r e f i n i n g t h e a r c h i t e c t u r e . T h e technology development and testing projects are being continued at various work centres.


The money poured in this project is penuts compared to what would be needed going ahead , they can easily write off this money if they decide at some stage not to go ahead.

AMCA should have gone through this stage in early 2000 and even if it received funding in say late 2000 for FSED then sustained effort hence forth we would have seen AMCA by practical deadline by 2030 thats the time the M2K , 29's and Jags would get retired. Now these types will have to shoulder the burden beyond 2040 if the current AMCA schedule continues.

Unless we see GOI putting serious money for FSED/TD we will have to wait and watch , This is indias first Twin Engine and Stealth Fighter program and expect some challenges ahead. They will have to seriously look at indiginous engine at this stage else get saddled with GE engine like our Tejas. Hope what ever they are planning with Snecma gets materailised.

Although the positive part is the current chief is very pro-AMCA and he has been supporting this program but like Tejas we may see other chief going ahead who may not be as pro-AMCA as current one and we might see the easy way out if importing Single or Twin engine stealth fighter, between 2018 and 2035 plus when AMCA will get FOC any thing is possible depending on how program gets funded and how the flight testing program goes.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby JayS » 21 Feb 2018 11:08

srai wrote:
JayS wrote:
They are going the Tejas way. Feasibility/Project Definition phase >> TD >> FSED. First one is over, TD is to kick start, which has officially been sanctioned. FSED will in time come along.

I thought they were bypassing TD (-> PV -> LSP -> SP) and going for "designed for production" approach instead?


I am using Program management terminology, you are using terminology used for flight test vehicles. For LCA, TD and PV were part of TD. LSP were part FSED. SP is production version. I do not know what this term "Designed for Production" exactly means. Did you mean "Designed for manufacturing"..? In any case its not relevant here. You can either have TD->SP or LSP->SP. You cannot possibly go directly for SP stage. Definitely not for a next generation jet when we literally have no base.

pravula
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby pravula » 21 Feb 2018 12:35

abhik wrote:Maruth was twin engined no?


I think it was officially classified as fighter-bomber.

nrshah
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby nrshah » 21 Feb 2018 13:38

Austin
In 2000 not even Tejas flew.
Post Shakti 2, India was still under sanctions
Economy was just coming out from bankruptcy like situation of 1993.
We were thrown out of LM while trying to develop the flight control laws.
Remember the letter from LM that LCA will fall from air to George Fernandez.

You seriously expect we would have started AMCA at that point of time??


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