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AMCA News and Discussions

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby enaiel » 10 Oct 2017 18:26

If anyone is under the impression that AMCA is moving ahead quickly, please see this note on the AMCA from ADA's 2015-2016 annual report:

Way Forward:
Permission may be given to initiate next phase of activities. In-principle approval for submission of CCS papers and Lead-in project has been sought.


Seems like ADA was still waiting for permission to move forward with AMCA at the time of the report.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Austin » 10 Oct 2017 20:11

AMCA would take atleast 15 years from the date it gets CCS approval for FSED till it enters IAF squadron service even if that approval is given tomorrow.

There is no such thing as quickly build one based on experience from Tejas and get that thing done quickly ,there would be known and unknown challenges for any new design and unexpected ones too once flight test program starts. More practical date for AMCA squadron service would be ~ 2035 and would be the same time when Mig-29/M2K and Jags would start getting number plated

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Rakesh » 17 Oct 2017 16:41

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/920170333251895296 --> Right, here's a 1:1 scale model of the intake of India's under development 5G Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA)

Image

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Rakesh » 17 Oct 2017 16:42

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/920170635937980417 --> Here's the AMCA configuration that may have been agreed upon for prototyping

Image

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Pratyush » 17 Oct 2017 18:29

This looks like a single pilot machine.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby NRao » 17 Oct 2017 19:46

Came across this post from LiveFist, on the MCA in as recent as 2009, seems to be incomplete:

Incidentally, DRDO chief M Natarajan has just said that the MCA will not be a fifth generation fighter. He said the aicraft would be an advanced fourth-generation fighter (whatever that means), and that, only if they can get up to speed on stealth concepts.
All Photos by Shiv Aroor / LiveFist


This would have been the incremental approach, that morphed into the 5th gen AMCA.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby NRao » 17 Oct 2017 20:03

Sorry, just saw this

JayS wrote:X-posting from LCA thread

NRao sahab, those 230 Cr rupees are given for some basic 5th gen technology RnD such as serpentine intake, may be SW development for aero-electromagnetic shaping, RAM coating and things like that which are essential for AMCA and Ghatak and is only a small starting. You were talking of prototypes for AMCA. I don't have to tell you that in 230Cr one probably could make only a wooden prototype for RCS testing, do I..?? That's all it is enough for. And may be a scaled flying UAV for some basic aero characteristics. AMCA PV will need 3000-4000Cr funding at the bare minimum.


1) The "231 Crore" topic first surfaced in Feb, 2017. (I did not post this info then because some parts of the article - unrelated to the numbers - are plagiarized.) There were others reporting similar numbers
2) The reports suggested that this (231 crore) was "seed funding", indicating it was part of a larger number
3) The larger number was 3000 crore

The only reason I decided to run with the "231 crore" was because it came from SJha. And, even then, if you read my last sentence of my post, I had doubts. I should have perhaps clarified that the 231 crore, in my mind, was "seed funds". But then I just assumed that people do conduct their own research and would have come across the earlier/Feb articles.

4) Actually, much earlier (as I had posted), DRDO was seeking 25,000 crore

5) Do not know about "wooden", but right behind the Feb 5th report on "231 crore" was the report about a 1:1 model for RCS

As your correspondent reports, the first 1:1 full scale model of India’s fifth generation concept Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) is being built in Bengaluru. Later this year, the model will undergo a series of rigorous tests at an RCS facility in Hyderabad, where the programme team will have its fest chance at seeing how the shape they’ve chosen for the jet deals with radiation.



a) It would be great if we can confirm if this model was ever started. I assumed it had
b) This has got to be the first step in the AMCA build out and if it has started, then the AMCA is that much closer to the goal line

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby JayS » 17 Oct 2017 20:21

NRao wrote:Sorry, just saw this

JayS wrote:X-posting from LCA thread

NRao sahab, those 230 Cr rupees are given for some basic 5th gen technology RnD such as serpentine intake, may be SW development for aero-electromagnetic shaping, RAM coating and things like that which are essential for AMCA and Ghatak and is only a small starting. You were talking of prototypes for AMCA. I don't have to tell you that in 230Cr one probably could make only a wooden prototype for RCS testing, do I..?? That's all it is enough for. And may be a scaled flying UAV for some basic aero characteristics. AMCA PV will need 3000-4000Cr funding at the bare minimum.


1) The "231 Crore" topic first surfaced in Feb, 2017. (I did not post this info then because some parts of the article - unrelated to the numbers - are plagiarized.) There were others reporting similar numbers
2) The reports suggested that this (231 crore) was "seed funding", indicating it was part of a larger number
3) The larger number was 3000 crore

The only reason I decided to run with the "231 crore" was because it came from SJha. And, even then, if you read my last sentence of my post, I had doubts. I should have perhaps clarified that the 231 crore, in my mind, was "seed funds". But then I just assumed that people do conduct their own research and would have come across the earlier/Feb articles.

4) Actually, much earlier (as I had posted), DRDO was seeking 25,000 crore

5) Do not know about "wooden", but right behind the Feb 5th report on "231 crore" was the report about a 1:1 model for RCS

As your correspondent reports, the first 1:1 full scale model of India’s fifth generation concept Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) is being built in Bengaluru. Later this year, the model will undergo a series of rigorous tests at an RCS facility in Hyderabad, where the programme team will have its fest chance at seeing how the shape they’ve chosen for the jet deals with radiation.



a) It would be great if we can confirm if this model was ever started. I assumed it had
b) This has got to be the first step in the AMCA build out and if it has started, then the AMCA is that much closer to the goal line


I don't remember who posted it first and when, its known for well over a year now. I take ADA report or MoD report as base though. There would have been a separate funding for AMCA preliminary design, that perhaps can be refered to as "seed funding". They are awaiting approval for FSED which will involve detailed design, manufacturing of TD and flight testing. 25000Cr is cost of entire program. GOI may go the LCA way and approve only TD phase initially with much lower 3-4k Cr funding.

For RCS measurement, wooden model is sufficient, at this stage. 1:1 Model also might not be necessary (since stealth is independent of size), but perhaps they want to include all the geometric features.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby NRao » 17 Oct 2017 22:12

Sept 17, 2017 :: Rolls-Royce bets big on gas turbine engine technology with DRDO

The Westminster-based firm is also closely tracking the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) project, the home-grown fifth generation fighter aircraft.

“Just like all the engine houses, we are closely tracking the AMCA opportunity. This is now at the RFI stage. We naturally hope the RFP will be issued soon. The Indian Air Force wants these indigenous aircraft and it will be their decision on the engine solution whether it is off-the-shelf or indigenous. The RFP will answer these questions,” he added.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby NRao » 18 Oct 2017 09:53

Another data point on US engine

The U.S.-India relationship is especially important; Indian leaders have described it as “indispensable,” and the two countries are cooperating on a number of significant projects, including the joint development of jet engines and aircraft-carrier technology.


The "aircraft-carrier technology" is very, very critical. It will have an influence on the naval AMCA.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Gagan » 18 Oct 2017 21:12

So the AMCA is intended to be a 4.5++ gen plane and not a true blue 5th gen plane?
Once the TDs start flying we will hear about AMCA Mk 1, 1A, and 2

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Gagan » 18 Oct 2017 21:15

The other thing is that when a program of this magnitude has been taken up by other manufacturers, weapons specific to it have been simultaneously taken up by corresponding developers
IR and Radar guided missiles customized for internal carriage, PGMs for internal carriage.

Trying to retrogradely customize existing missiles to fit in the weapons bay might well give unsatisfactory results in terms of range of the customized weapon for example.

A data point the designers would have had to contend with here

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby JayS » 09 Nov 2017 13:06

OK guys. Listen to this at 10.00 min. Coming from DCOAS AM Bhaduria, its quite credible. And this is the second instance that I have heard this from an IAF officer. Hope it comes to reality as expected.

"AMCA is coming next year, it will fast tracked"

:mrgreen:



Also good to see top brass of IAF appreciating how LCA is helping the desi MIC build up and AMCA will be the next big step in the correct direction.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Kartik » 10 Nov 2017 03:28

Great find JayS. Coming from Air Marshal Bhaduria, it can be believed. Key word was "fast-tracked", which hopefully means approvals and funding is made available without delays. I was also gratified to hear, for the very first time at least for me, a very high ranking IAF officer candidly speaking about the mistakes the IAF made, especially related to the HF-24 Marut having no follow on program. Good to hear about the IAF supporting the LCA, just hope that it translates into many more orders and support for the Tejas Mk2 program.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby nachiket » 10 Nov 2017 04:08

JayS wrote:"AMCA is coming next year, it will fast tracked"

What exactly of the AMCA will come next year? Definitely not a prototype. I'll be happy if they sanction sufficient funds by next year. I'll be ecstatic if they sanction funds for building all necessary testing infrastructure side by side so that it is ready a few years down the line when it is needed.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby srai » 10 Nov 2017 04:52

^^^

If the next phase is approved, the first flight of AMCA will take place in 7-years--2025 or thereabouts. Then that would be followed by 10-years of flight testings/refinements before IOC/FOC sometime around 2035.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Cosmo_R » 10 Nov 2017 04:57

srai wrote:^^^

If the next phase is approved, the first flight of AMCA will take place in 7-years--2025 or thereabouts. Then that would be followed by 10-years of flight testings/refinements before IOC/FOC sometime around 2035.


Assuming the usual delays,in limited service by 2040

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby srai » 10 Nov 2017 05:08

^^^

True, production setup/orders are another matter.

What it shows is a need for the LCA to sustain the Indian aerospace industry for the next 15-20 years until AMCA enters production. A lot more orders of the LCA and an ongoing R&D on the platform are a must. Otherwise, Marut-to-LCA gap all over again. The whole MII SE import of 100-250 planes follows the Marut-to-Jaguar model. History seems to be repeating here.

To add, Jaguar import in the late 1970s lead to a series of imports in quick succession in the 1980s: Jaguar -> MiG-23/27 -> Mirage-2000 -> MiG-29. Coming to present day, we are seeing that after Rafale import SE MII import is closely following in its footsteps and this maybe closely followed by PAK-FA import. No need for LCA like there was no need for Marut.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby JayS » 10 Nov 2017 11:49

nachiket wrote:
JayS wrote:"AMCA is coming next year, it will fast tracked"

What exactly of the AMCA will come next year? Definitely not a prototype. I'll be happy if they sanction sufficient funds by next year. I'll be ecstatic if they sanction funds for building all necessary testing infrastructure side by side so that it is ready a few years down the line when it is needed.


Approval for project.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby JayS » 10 Nov 2017 11:51

srai wrote:^^^

If the next phase is approved, the first flight of AMCA will take place in 7-years--2025 or thereabouts. Then that would be followed by 10-years of flight testings/refinements before IOC/FOC sometime around 2035.


2035 is not a bad deal for EIS.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby ArjunPandit » 14 Nov 2017 04:56

Curious if Al 31 can be considered for AMCA.
Reasons i could think of
1. We manufacture it from raw material
2. Has a huge eco system within country
3. would expedite testing to avoid contract drafting with GE etc
4. Has less weight than 414 (wiki figures) has more or less similar dimensions (not sure if few inches are make or break for an engine)
5. Could be cheaper

Cons
1. May not be reliable, esp for indian conditions
2. does not add to our know how and know who(intended for USA)
I know the train has left the platform but still curious

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby brar_w » 14 Nov 2017 05:01

2 x AL-31 will require a complete resizing of the aircraft. A single AL-31 would likewise stress design margins and may be inadequate for meeting some of the specification goals.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby ArjunPandit » 14 Nov 2017 05:10

brar_w wrote:2 x AL-31 will require a complete resizing of the aircraft. A single AL-31 would likewise stress design margins and may be inadequate for meeting some of the specification goals.

Thanks Brar. My question was also for initial stages and not where we are today

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby brar_w » 14 Nov 2017 05:16

Those points would still hold. The AMCA is a medium class aircraft. Choosing the twin -31 set up will begin to push it into a heavy aircraft.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Dileep » 14 Nov 2017 06:20

I get signals that 'senkshun' had been given for Aam-Ka TD. This will be to develop the twin injin airframe that flies. Once again, an 'educated guess' and FWIW.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Pratyush » 14 Nov 2017 07:09

brar_w wrote:2 x AL-31 will require a complete resizing of the aircraft. A single AL-31 would likewise stress design margins and may be inadequate for meeting some of the specification goals.



Give the way the IAF is going after LCA for being light and changing the goal posts regarding the LCA. I think it would be prudent for DRDO to think in terms of a bigger aircraft.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Gagan » 14 Nov 2017 07:22

2 GE 414 power the FA-18, and they will power the AMCA
A Stealth design is inherently inefficient, at least more than a conventional design, flying with the same engines.
The designers have to fit that weapons dabba (Bay) under the plane too

Just saying

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby NRao » 14 Nov 2017 07:56

Dileep wrote:I get signals that 'senkshun' had been given for Aam-Ka TD. This will be to develop the twin injin airframe that flies. Once again, an 'educated guess' and FWIW.


Early this year.

Except some noise in early 2020s. Aakar.

Gagan wrote:2 GE 414 power the FA-18, and they will power the AMCA
A Stealth design is inherently inefficient, at least more than a conventional design, flying with the same engines.
The designers have to fit that weapons dabba (Bay) under the plane too

Just saying


A 5th gen plane is more than a plane.

The AMCA should surprise a lot of people.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Pratyush » 14 Nov 2017 07:57

Why not do concurrent development of the jet. The airframe will be airborn by 2025, then develop the combat system concurrently with the jet. So that the full intigeraton can be done by 2027 or thereabouts. Knowing the airframe is licked, open the production lines so that by 2027-28, the jet is being produced in numbers.

That way, avoid all the mess of the LCA program.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby srai » 14 Nov 2017 20:59

^^^

The user won't approve unless its has "full" capabilities. That is why a direct purchase of a "proven" foreign fighter seems a better bet for users.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 14 Nov 2017 21:12

We should look at stealth in Indian Vedic science sense.. meaning stealth within. I shared my ideas earlier and none nodded except N3 guru.

See.. simple permeable hard kevlar composites makes outer skin. What prevents internal reflectors subcutaneous and/or consume the radiation as well?

Give me a bunch of kids.. young blood I will drive them to get results. It might be hard problem with various freq and bandwidths and that is where ingenuity plays in.

Get off this Chinese mentality.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby JayS » 14 Nov 2017 21:35

SaiK wrote:We should look at stealth in Indian Vedic science sense.. meaning stealth within. I shared my ideas earlier and none nodded except N3 guru.

See.. simple permeable hard kevlar composites makes outer skin. What prevents internal reflectors subcutaneous and/or consume the radiation as well?

Give me a bunch of kids.. young blood I will drive them to get results. It might be hard problem with various freq and bandwidths and that is where ingenuity plays in.

Get off this Chinese mentality.


LM studied this concept. They made one of their aircrafts invisible to the RADAR, literally, like a glass skinned aircraft would look like for visible spectrum. But to their dismay the innards of the the aircraft started shining orders of magnitude brighter (orders of magnitude higher RCS). Engine alone was like 000's time larger than the entire aircraft in terms of RCS. Now how do you make engine absorb radar waves..? Turns out its easier to deal with the Radar waves at the skin level. Only one thing needs to be optimized instead of 100s of LRUs.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Karan M » 14 Nov 2017 21:40

Modi led GOI so far has been a pathetic disappointment when it comes to true MII programs like AMCA. For all his big talk on indigenization and MII, we are yet to see any significant inflow of funds to these programs and Modi just did capital hopping with indian taxpayer money as some sort of largesse for other countries and their programs.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Austin » 14 Nov 2017 22:47

After Tejas GOI has cautious approach to this project both past and present.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Philip » 14 Nov 2017 22:55

Pl read the last VAYU edition where Prof.Das and AM Matheeswaran contributed pieces on the JF-17 and AMCA.In short, the LCA has been a v.badly managed progr. becos the DRDO ran it.Babudom actually wanted the IAF "outed to " fast track the progr.! We learnt nothing from the HF-24 , which even though underpowered performed v.well in '71, had huge dev. potential and all Dr.Tank's excellent design and dev. and management skills and culture were lost.The LCA had no connection whatsoever with the HF-24 legacy either.

Both the end- user,the IAF and industry-HAL ,were ignored and kept in subordinate roles.The time taken to develop the HF,enter production and the LCA, still under dev. when compared makes for v.sorry reading.In Pak, the JF-17 progr. is run by air marshals, but in India the babus who run the show only know of flying and of aircraft by flying biz class in Air India ! In Pak almost 100 JF-17s are in service for a progr. that started after the LCA.

AM Matheeswaran warns that the AMCA must learn from the LCA's mistakes.The ADA must be restructured into a " National Fighter Aircraft Design and Development Agency", headed by an IAF man with professional experience.(This is exactly what was sabotaged by babudom with the ADA for the LCA progr. which was to have had as DG a very reputed IAF AM, who was also a VCoAS, with experience of heading programmes like DARIN, the ASTE,etc.)

The ADA he says must also be integrated with accompanying labs, industry, etc. and run by technical and financial/management experts and the end-user.Coordination at the outset between end-user and industry absolutely vital,otherwise it will fail like the LCA.Firang OEMs must be chosen for the SEF as strat. partners who will ensure exports of LCA derivatives.

There is little to show right now that the LCA's lessons are being learnt. AM Math.,"In order to achieve success in our make in India strategy, the next-gen fighter aircraft development (AMCA) must undergo significant change through restructuring of the ADA and placing it under the control of a user led professional programme management."

I would go a step even further and can the ADA itself.It is a useless outfit which could be easily dissolved and its role absorbed by the IAF and HAL. In the US and elsewhere there are only the industry and end- user and the Pentagon/ MODs .When an aircraft has reached tech- dem. status, the end- user takes over the prog. Take the JSF for example.Headed by Gen.Bogdan who just retd., replaced by his deputy another services man.The ADA has only added another layer of DRDO babudom to delay results and act as the "boss" of both the IAF and HAL as far as the LCA is concerned.Just imagine if there was an ADA style outfit for the IN! Catastrophic results.The IN thankfully has its own design establishment for all its requirements.This is something that the IAF and IA should emulate. Either the IAF handle the same or HAL, with full oversight and control of programmes by the IAF.HAL to also have an aerospace technocrat as its head, either a scientist with a proven track record or an ex-IAF professional with the required skills.

If reforms to the existing structure of Indian aircraft design does not take place,the AMCA will be an even costlier disaster in the making, as we are still at the level of the HF-24 where we can't design and build a suitable fighter engine, nor radar, and a host of other key components despite 3+ decades of the ADA's LCA .

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby prasannasimha » 14 Nov 2017 23:03

^ ADA is not some Babudom. They have slogged to make the LCA despite huge odds.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby NRao » 14 Nov 2017 23:13

I think the problem is with those that sponsored Modi. The disconnect with MP arose with them imho. Talk of deep state!


BTW, there are tons of Indians doing very, very well. But, they all work for foreign companies!

GE Aviation, India, is one such example. Bleeding edge in civilian engines. I am told that group actually moves the needle on their stock price!



It would be a travesty if the AMCA does not pan out due to internal politics.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby JayS » 14 Nov 2017 23:28

Philip wrote:Pl read the last VAYU edition where Prof.Das and AM Matheeswaran contributed pieces on the JF-17 and AMCA.In short, the LCA has been a v.badly managed progr. becos the DRDO ran it.Babudom actually wanted the IAF "outed to " fast track the progr.! We learnt nothing from the HF-24 , which even though underpowered performed v.well in '71, had huge dev. potential and all Dr.Tank's excellent design and dev. and management skills and culture were lost.The LCA had no connection whatsoever with the HF-24 legacy either.

Both the end- user,the IAF and industry-HAL ,were ignored and kept in subordinate roles.The time taken to develop the HF,enter production and the LCA, still under dev. when compared makes for v.sorry reading.In Pak, the JF-17 progr. is run by air marshals, but in India the babus who run the show only know of flying and of aircraft by flying biz class in Air India ! In Pak almost 100 JF-17s are in service for a progr. that started after the LCA.

AM Matheeswaran warns that the AMCA must learn from the LCA's mistakes.The ADA must be restructured into a " National Fighter Aircraft Design and Development Agency", headed by an IAF man with professional experience.(This is exactly what was sabotaged by babudom with the ADA for the LCA progr. which was to have had as DG a very reputed IAF AM, who was also a VCoAS, with experience of heading programmes like DARIN, the ASTE,etc.)

The ADA he says must also be integrated with accompanying labs, industry, etc. and run by technical and financial/management experts and the end-user.Coordination at the outset between end-user and industry absolutely vital,otherwise it will fail like the LCA.Firang OEMs must be chosen for the SEF as strat. partners who will ensure exports of LCA derivatives.

There is little to show right now that the LCA's lessons are being learnt. AM Math.,"In order to achieve success in our make in India strategy, the next-gen fighter aircraft development (AMCA) must undergo significant change through restructuring of the ADA and placing it under the control of a user led professional programme management."

I would go a step even further and can the ADA itself.It is a useless outfit which could be easily dissolved and its role absorbed by the IAF and HAL. In the US and elsewhere there are only the industry and end- user and the Pentagon/ MODs .When an aircraft has reached tech- dem. status, the end- user takes over the prog. Take the JSF for example.Headed by Gen.Bogdan who just retd., replaced by his deputy another services man.The ADA has only added another layer of DRDO babudom to delay results and act as the "boss" of both the IAF and HAL as far as the LCA is concerned.Just imagine if there was an ADA style outfit for the IN! Catastrophic results.The IN thankfully has its own design establishment for all its requirements.This is something that the IAF and IA should emulate. Either the IAF handle the same or HAL, with full oversight and control of programmes by the IAF.HAL to also have an aerospace technocrat as its head, either a scientist with a proven track record or an ex-IAF professional with the required skills.

If reforms to the existing structure of Indian aircraft design does not take place,the AMCA will be an even costlier disaster in the making, as we are still at the level of the HF-24 where we can't design and build a suitable fighter engine, nor radar, and a host of other key components despite 3+ decades of the ADA's LCA .


While I myself feel that AFs should be given more control on programs (though its debatable if IAF/IN has the technical competence to do so (I do not doubt their management/logistic skills though). IN has inculcated deep technical capabilities over decades while IAF/IA were busy browsing brochures), and have advocated it previously here, its really difficult to take anything you write seriously when it has gems like these (bolded parts).

suryag
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby suryag » 14 Nov 2017 23:39

I would go a step even further and can the ADA itself.It is a useless outfit which could be easily dissolved and its role absorbed by the IAF and HAL


Philip ji you are probably older than my oldest brother and i have great respect for you when you talk about topics other than that concerned with Russi maal. In the above context sir, you come across as extremely ignorant and someone who has faster fingers and but has a challenged engineering brain and is dumb when it comes to engineering topics. I worked in DRDL 17 years ago and we had a small work assignment with ADA on some coordinate management and normalization, believe me they are far far better than you can even imagine with your little brain. There is a limit to critiquing and you of all the people should know that. The biggest problem that ails DRDL is program and project management aspects, one deals with core technology development on areas that are deemed important and the other deals with managing a project that uses infeeds from the research lab. We in India have not progressed to the next level and are stuck in some shitty Soviet era research bureau mode of thinking which is no longer rleevant today. Again am sorry if i hurt you but you should be respectful and guarded about things that you dont know enough about.

Philip
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Location: India

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Philip » 15 Nov 2017 00:12

Bolded gems? The truth does hurt esp. for the taxpayer.

Suryag and others, tx for the criticism accepted in good grace but consider the following.
Just imagine that the ADA does not exist ( it never did when we built the HF-24) and that there are only two parties to the programme.End-user and manufacturer.They can cooperate and sort out design/ dev. issues themselves, division of roles without any interlocutor agency that only adds to the bureaucratic pile-up , like a multiple vehicle crash on a foggy, smoggy day on a Delhi expressway! Plus abolishing the ADA will save enormous amounts of money by avoiding duplication of staff, time in communications between the end-user and industry, not to mention the reduced MOD red tape, thus accelerating project completion and bringing huge savings to the project cost.The ADA simply adds another unwanted layer of bureaucratic control over the core aspect of a product's design and dev. which is best handled by the end-user or industry.

There are no ADA equivs. either in Europe, the US or Russia in the aircraft industry.There are design bureau's like Sukhoi, MIG,Tupolev, etc. in Russia and huge defence MNCs like BAe, Dassault,Lockheed or Boeing in the West who do not have an interlocutor in between telling them what to do for their aircraft programmes.In both the US and Russia, design bureaus compete for a defence requirement.Take the one for the USAF fighter won by the F-16 .The loser, F-17 was redesigned into the USN's F-18.Likewise the contest between SU and MIG for Russia's 5th- gen bird.MIG's I- 42 lost out.

I still strongly feel that the ADA must be dissolved or totally absorbed by either the IAF or HAL.Less duplication of management and non- essential staff too.
Trying to reform its structure will be another great opportunity for babudom to delay matters and yet again ensure its control over an entity that has proven to have been detrimental as far as the LCA is concerned.

Are we not at the same stage as the HF-24 when it comes to a suitable engine for a desi aircraft? At least the HF-24 also came with its guns! The LCA has yet to test this vital component , essential for both dogfighting and GA/CS.
Then there's the little issue reg. radar? Is Uttam going the same was as the Kaveri?

We've mastered production of MKI TVC engines entirely from Desi raw material, 50 built so far out of a total of 350+ produced with varying degrees of desi %. For the AMCA we could easily manufacture a derivative of the TVC engines being used on the MIG-35 ,or as said many a time the TVC option of the same EJ engine used on the EF Typhoon.The TVC EJ should also be considered for future improved LCA variants .

The success of the AMCA will be its engine.We must first decide upon the engine/s, have a second prototype flying with an alternative too, before embarking upon the rest of the design.Oncd the powerplant details are known fixing the design /dimensions, etc. of the aircraft will be easier accomplished otherwise choosing the engine first and trying to shoe-horn it into a fixed design will result in another underpowered LCA fiasco. The new 414 engine for the MK-2 will effectively result in a new design!


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