AMCA News and Discussions

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brar_w
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby brar_w » 07 Apr 2018 18:02

The Global-Eye is an Airborne Early Warning aircraft and much like any other AEW it would be able to detect stealth aircraft. All radars can detect stealth aircraft - it is always a question of when, at what distance, and passing along that information in order to develop a fire-control-solution before the stealth aircraft does what it is there to do and returns. It is this effect of Low-Observability on the targeting loop that makes the design feature attractive and why every nation capable of fielding or developing advanced systems is looking at designs, techniques, materials and processes that decrease RCS and no one is really doing the opposite research i.e. how to increase RCS ;).

The L-Band AESA radars on the E-7, and the Phalcon should perform better than the Global Eye given they are at a lower band but then again those would not help much in targeting because ultimately you have to get a fighter close and make sure the organic radar and ultimately the missile seeker has to keep the aircraft in its tracks.

My reference was to X band FCRs for fighters and GaN application. Higher frequency sensors generate a lot of heat, and require a lot of power and cooling compared to surveillance sensors. For example, the 300 km surveillance radar using GaN - Girraffe 4A -, uses about 60-80 kW of power while an X band FCR with similar performance (MEADS FCR) requires more than 200 kW of power. Holding range constant lower frequency sensors are even more efficient. This, along with other reasons, is why long-range surveillance radars are in the VHF-L-band trade space with S bad now becoming increasingly a good trade to make because of growth in GaA and GaN AESA radars and components..

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Eric Leiderman » 08 Apr 2018 05:36

Over the next decade, crystal gazing, (which is a very ambiguous science?)


As and when stealth aircraft start populating major air forces. BVR missiles will be developed that use multiple sensors for short range close in and kill loop. Infra-red, optical and radar and possibly newer sensors will all communicate with the on board AI which will be data linked. With miniaturization the way it is going a BVR missile will effectively be a one way UAV. The AWAC lower frequency radars will data link with these BVR missiles and guide them within their kill sphere using data links.
To an extent meteor BVR is very much there and as net centric war fare evolves so will missiles using the same tech.
However 4.5 gen aircraft used in air dominance and other modes will slowly be reserve aircraft. As they will not be useful in the initial phases of the war, will come in play as enemy’s systems degrade.

An analogy which is comparable is the dumb bomb v/s smart bomb v/s air/ground missiles. At the moment the costing makes the dumb bomb proliferate, however the ratios will slowly tilt the other way as the cost differences decrease.

by then our AMCA will hopefully be in squadron service and we will have our own dedicated network reaching the platoon level and encompass all 3 services fighting as a single unit.
:D :D :D 8) 8) 8)

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby kit » 08 Apr 2018 05:41

brar_w wrote:The Global-Eye is an Airborne Early Warning aircraft and much like any other AEW it would be able to detect stealth aircraft. All radars can detect stealth aircraft - it is always a question of when, at what distance, and passing along that information in order to develop a fire-control-solution before the stealth aircraft does what it is there to do and returns. It is this effect of Low-Observability on the targeting loop that makes the design feature attractive and why every nation capable of fielding or developing advanced systems is looking at designs, techniques, materials and processes that decrease RCS and no one is really doing the opposite research i.e. how to increase RCS ;).

The L-Band AESA radars on the E-7, and the Phalcon should perform better than the Global Eye given they are at a lower band but then again those would not help much in targeting because ultimately you have to get a fighter close and make sure the organic radar and ultimately the missile seeker has to keep the aircraft in its tracks.

My reference was to X band FCRs for fighters and GaN application. Higher frequency sensors generate a lot of heat, and require a lot of power and cooling compared to surveillance sensors. For example, the 300 km surveillance radar using GaN - Girraffe 4A -, uses about 60-80 kW of power while an X band FCR with similar performance (MEADS FCR) requires more than 200 kW of power. Holding range constant lower frequency sensors are even more efficient. This, along with other reasons, is why long-range surveillance radars are in the VHF-L-band trade space with S bad now becoming increasingly a good trade to make because of growth in GaA and GaN AESA radars and components..


Thank you, clear explanation as always!

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby brar_w » 08 Apr 2018 05:43

The meteor is an optimized weapon for 4th and 4+ generation aircraft allowing them stand-off ranges and therefore better offensive capability against targets that allow that (long-range targeting). It is not optimized for a 5th or 6th generation aircraft or for internal carriage given the design trade with the inlet (not allowing tight packing for example). Its seeker and data link concepts are again an evolutionary approach of the current and previous generation AAMs.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Haridas » 09 Apr 2018 11:14

Eric Leiderman wrote:Over the next decade, crystal gazing, (which is a very ambiguous science?)


As and when stealth aircraft start populating major air forces. BVR missiles will be developed that use multiple sensors for short range close in and kill loop. Infra-red, optical and radar and possibly newer sensors will all communicate with the on board AI which will be data linked. With miniaturization the way it is going a BVR missile will effectively be a one way UAV. The AWAC lower frequency radars will data link with these BVR missiles and guide them within their kill sphere using data links.
To an extent meteor BVR is very much there and as net centric war fare evolves so will missiles using the same tech.
However 4.5 gen aircraft used in air dominance and other modes will slowly be reserve aircraft. As they will not be useful in the initial phases of the war, will come in play as enemy’s systems degrade.

An analogy which is comparable is the dumb bomb v/s smart bomb v/s air/ground missiles. At the moment the costing makes the dumb bomb proliferate, however the ratios will slowly tilt the other way as the cost differences decrease.

by then our AMCA will hopefully be in squadron service and we will have our own dedicated network reaching the platoon level and encompass all 3 services fighting as a single unit.
:D :D :D 8) 8) 8)


Single chip millimetre wave radar products will shortly be available for commercial use, and they are really cheap (~$20) , with 3x Tx and 4 concurrent Rx channels. Given 4mm wavelength it would easily fit into 10% nose radome surface of smallest A2A missile, so ,ultimately sensor fusion and its near optical feature sensing will make aircraft stealth impossible.

I am planning to use it for some interesting application.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Austin » 09 Apr 2018 12:55

Can India make Fifth Generation fighters? All depends on Kaveri engine's development
The main hurdle in developing a Fifth Generation fighter is the engine which should be able to deliver the performance needed for an advanced aircraft. India has long been working on Kaveri engine project and it was actually this engine that was supposed to be fitted in LCA Tejas. However, the Kaveri programme failed to satisfy the necessary technical requirements or keep up with its envisaged timelines and was officially delinked from the Tejas programme in September 2008.

With the Indian Air Force (IAF)'s depleting squadron size, the pressure mounted on the HAL to deliver LCA Tejas early. So the Tejas' which have been inducted into the service so far has the US manufactured General Electric F404-GE-F2J3 afterburning turbofan engine.

The AMCA 5th Generation Stealth Fighter Project:

The AMCA (Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft) is being developed by an aerospace industry team which consist of Aeronautical Development Agency as a design firm and is to be manufactured by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL). AMCA would likely to be a single-seat, twin-engine, stealth super-manoeuvrable all-weather multirole fighter aircraft. AMCA should not be confused be with a separate FGFA programme which is a co-venture between the Russians and HAL, so it is not an indigenous project. The FGFA project with Russia would be able to roll out fifth-generation aircraft by 2020. AMCA is totally different since it will completely be made by India. But for it to become a reality, the development of Kaveri engine is crucial. DRDO will look to develop many of its 5th generation systems ingenuously, so tentatively it should be ready around 2025. Some say that project may also get delayed up to 2030.

A source close to OneIndia said that projects do not get delayed because HAL lacks expertise. It happens because of numerous other external factors. One of the reasons he said was the inability of political leadership to take a stance whether India wants a defensive approach to deal with the enemies or an offensive one, which he said confuses those in the DRDO. He also said that by the time DRDO/ HAL develops a technology, the requirements of the IAF changes.

Kaveri Engine and expectations from it:

The GTRE GTX-35VS Kaveri, is an afterburning turbofan project developed by the Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE), a lab under the DRDO in Bangalore. The Defense Research and Development Organization (DRDO) decided to wind up the Kaveri engine (GTX-35VS ) programme in November 2014 due to its shortcomings, a decision that will be finalized by the DAC. The GTRE is now running two separate successor engine programmes, the K9+ and the K10 programme. France has offered to help India revive the unsuccessful Kaveri engine project. An upgraded Kaveri engine with 90 kN thrust compared to the existing 72 kN can be developed with French cooperation which can eventually be used for Tejas which currently uses an American engine. In theory the AMCA will be powered by a domestically manufactured Kaveri K9 or K10 engine, currently undergoing development by the Gas Turbine Research Establishment. But making powerful and reliable jet engines from scratch is hard. Only after the Kaveri engines are ready, supposedly in 2019, can the serious work on the airframe really begin. Proposed upgraded Kaveri engine will be a 90kN thrust class engine which will be marginally more powerful than GE supplied F404-GE-IN20 engine which is currently generating 84kN thrust. Ideally for Kaveri engine should be able to deliver 95 Kn

Finally, the ADA and HAL will need to produce sufficiently powerful turbofan engines to meet performance specifications. This is further complicated by the need for an S-shaped air intake that will shield the reflective turbofan blades from showing up on the radar, as well as specially designed nozzles to reduce the heat signature of the engines from infrared sensors.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 11 Apr 2018 09:20

https://www.livefistdefence.com/2018/04 ... ghter.html
The DRDO-administered Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), which is concepting the AMCA has publicly said it is aiming to test-fly a prototype by 2020, with an aim to begin production of the jet by 2025. This target has now been reconfigured with an aim to fly the jet in seven years, that is by 2025.

Confirming the DRDO’s move to tap private Indian industry that already does major fabrication work for majors like Boeing, Airbus, BAE Systems and others, the DRDO chief told Livefist, “We are also looking for various vendors who can support us. Today the country has companies already working for Boeing in aircraft for instance, so why not we tap them to make some modules for the AMCA? That’s our next job.”
.....But with a lions share of critical technologies now expected to be infused from the outside, it remains to be seen how much of the AMCA remains strictly Indian.
...After a series of meetings with the ADA and DRDO, an official letter detailing these requirements was sent on 7 September 2015. Among other things, the Indian Navy requested for a separate team to be constituted for the development of NAMCA and sought involvement of naval representatives at all stages of the project.
......... It hasn’t moved for over two years now,”
.....The spin-off of mass reduction etc on the Air Force variant should be taken advantage of later. Case in point being the Rafale. They started with the Rafale-M. But, I don’t know who is listening!”

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby JayS » 11 Apr 2018 10:28

^^There we go again - how much of it will be Indian. What Lions share is coming from outside anyway...?

Looks like AMCA will be our "three legged Leopard"....LOL

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Will » 11 Apr 2018 20:46

I would rather the ADA goes with the naval proposal and develops the AMCA for the navy first. They navy are more supportive than the IAF. With the IAF, requirements will change every month :roll:

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby hnair » 11 Apr 2018 20:57

In that article, we are treated to the unseemly spectacle of Shiv Aroor coddling the scrotum of some guy called Hush-Kit’s Joe Coles and telling us, "it is great, he let me do it". Coles-birather is unabashedly shilling for SAAB to get good business from India and trashing every Indian effort across spectrum. Sounds like the cricket journalists upto mid-2000s, who used to know for a fact that "India will never EVER amount to anything against australia/SA", despite none of them having played at any level.

Wasted a few minutes of my life, reading that piece of dogspoo article

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Kartik » 12 Apr 2018 04:02

Yup, waste of time reading that Shiv Aroor article. Full of nothing basically.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Khalsa » 12 Apr 2018 04:34

I have stopped following his blog, he is a glossy front page surrounded by a vomit of advertisements banners journalist.
No substance and no depth.
Just copy and paste 95% of the time.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Rakesh » 12 Apr 2018 04:51

hnair wrote:In that article, we are treated to the unseemly spectacle of Shiv Aroor coddling the scrotum of some guy called Hush-Kit’s Joe Coles and telling us, "it is great, he let me do it". Coles-birather is unabashedly shilling for SAAB to get good business from India and trashing every Indian effort across spectrum. Sounds like the cricket journalists upto mid-2000s, who used to know for a fact that "India will never EVER amount to anything against australia/SA", despite none of them having played at any level.

Wasted a few minutes of my life, reading that piece of dogspoo article

:lol: :rotfl:

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Thakur_B » 12 Apr 2018 09:23

When was the last time shiv aroor broke any relevant story? He is woefully out of touch with any real defence development news.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby JayS » 12 Apr 2018 10:37

Thakur_B wrote:When was the last time shiv aroor broke any relevant story? He is woefully out of touch with any real defence development news.


I personally do not care if a defense journo really breaks any story, as long as he provides credible and technically correct info without masala (and definitely not biased peddled opinions or lifafa propaganda). Shiv aroor fails severely on this respect.

I think subtle journalists like Shiv Aroor are more dangerous than blatant idiots like Randit.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Austin » 12 Apr 2018 16:19

India’s fifth gen AMCA concept models in stealth & non-stealth configs at #DefExpo18. ( via livefist )

Image
Image

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Karan M » 12 Apr 2018 16:27

hnair wrote:In that article, we are treated to the unseemly spectacle of Shiv Aroor coddling the scrotum of some guy called Hush-Kit’s Joe Coles and telling us, "it is great, he let me do it". Coles-birather is unabashedly shilling for SAAB to get good business from India and trashing every Indian effort across spectrum. Sounds like the cricket journalists upto mid-2000s, who used to know for a fact that "India will never EVER amount to anything against australia/SA", despite none of them having played at any level.

Wasted a few minutes of my life, reading that piece of dogspoo article


Quoted for truth.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Pratyush » 12 Apr 2018 16:43

Why is the aircraft being shown with external LDP. Why not make the LDP integrated with the airframe for reducing the RCS even more.

And I don't mean in the weapons bay of the jet.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby prabhug » 12 Apr 2018 17:37

hnair wrote:In that article, we are treated to the unseemly spectacle of Shiv Aroor coddling the scrotum of some guy called Hush-Kit’s Joe Coles and telling us, "it is great, he let me do it". Coles-birather is unabashedly shilling for SAAB to get good business from India and trashing every Indian effort across spectrum. Sounds like the cricket journalists upto mid-2000s, who used to know for a fact that "India will never EVER amount to anything against australia/SA", despite none of them having played at any level.

Wasted a few minutes of my life, reading that piece of dogspoo article


+100 Same feeling.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby nrshah » 12 Apr 2018 17:44

Pratyush wrote:Why is the aircraft being shown with external LDP. Why not make the LDP integrated with the airframe for reducing the RCS even more.

And I don't mean in the weapons bay of the jet.


May be this is to reduce weight. Not every mission may require LDP.
Just IMHO..

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Kartik » 12 Apr 2018 23:06

Does anyone have an image of AMCA at DefExpo 2018 from the side and top profile as well?

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Kartik » 12 Apr 2018 23:59

So Shiv Aroor did post a video of the AMCA models at DefExpo 2018. The first model, the clean configuration one, is not the one that is going into production as the TD model. The second one, with externally slung weapons, looks similar to the line diagram that was shown in the RFI that ADA released related to producing the TD model.

link to Livefist twitter post

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby abhik » 13 Apr 2018 01:24

Kartik wrote:So Shiv Aroor did post a video of the AMCA models at DefExpo 2018. The first model, the clean configuration one, is not the one that is going into production as the TD model. The second one, with externally slung weapons, looks similar to the line diagram that was shown in the RFI that ADA released related to producing the TD model.

link to Livefist twitter post

They are both the same right? (Just with one in external load configuration).

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Cybaru » 13 Apr 2018 01:46

abhik wrote:They are both the same right? (Just with one in external load configuration).


Yes! They possibly can't two separate models. Just stealth and non stealth configs.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Kartik » 13 Apr 2018 02:04

No, they are different. I watched the video again and even Shiv Aroor remarked on their difference, saying that it indicated that the final config was not frozen. That doesn't seem to be the case IMO; what happened instead is that ADA just took these older models and brought them to the show. The 2D image that we saw in the RFI was most like 3B-09.

Image

the first one, in clean config is the older version that they had studied, with trapezoidal wings- most likely 3B-07. The model in the image below is very similar to that clean config one

Image

The second model, with the external stores, seems a bit more like 3B-09, but the vertical fins are different and their sweep back is greater. It looks a lot like this model below, but with a lot more refinement, such as in the forward fuselage, where the faceting of the fuselage is very clearly visible.

Image

But this model below doesn't have the same vertical stabs as the one in the RFI document above.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Cybaru » 13 Apr 2018 02:34

Well the final config on whatever they settle will be one and only one type right? Why would they make stealth and non stealth versions? hanging stores on pylons makes it non stealthy.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Kartik » 13 Apr 2018 04:49

yes of course, just one final Outer Mould Line and just 1 variant.

But the hardpoints will be there anyway so that they can carry external loads when the mission allows for lower stealth requirements. When stealth is required, take the pylons out, fair the hardpoints over and you have a clean stealth configuration.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby ashishvikas » 13 Apr 2018 12:12

The EOI floated for the creation of integration facilities to develop two Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) TDs has received wide response. Interestingly, foreign majors have responded to this EOI as well. It seems even they are interested in building the AMCA for India!

According to ADA, they will zero in on an industrial partner for the AMCA by the end of this year, with the TDs taking to the air in another 3-4 four years from that point.

Although, the two AMCA models displayed at this year's Defexpo showed the positioning of various conformal arrays and some flush air data sensors, much work remains to be done in both these areas.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/984 ... 42720?s=19

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Haridas » 13 Apr 2018 20:31

Austin wrote:India’s fifth gen AMCA concept models in stealth & non-stealth configs at #DefExpo18. ( via livefist )

Image
Image

Funny pictures. The stealthy airframe is loaded with non stealthy external weapons, while the non stealthy airframe has clean exterior. :twisted:

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Austin » 13 Apr 2018 21:00

I see many difference between the two including different intakes and more broader fuselage on the first AMCA model and non stealthy ( roundish ) nose. Seems different design/model of AMCA , The second one is more stealthy airframe disguised with external weapons load.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Cain Marko » 13 Apr 2018 22:13

Cybaru wrote:Well the final config on whatever they settle will be one and only one type right? Why would they make stealth and non stealth versions? hanging stores on pylons makes it non stealthy.


I think they were just showcasing the versatility of the bird in that it can be used as s pure stealth platform possibly during initial stages of war and later as a bomb truck as well....

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Cybaru » 14 Apr 2018 01:10

Yeah, I just hope they manage around 11000 liters of internal fuel in this bird. So that it can carry 2000 pounds to 3000 kms and back. Damn need strategic door busters!

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby JayS » 14 Apr 2018 11:54

Cybaru wrote:Yeah, I just hope they manage around 11000 liters of internal fuel in this bird. So that it can carry 2000 pounds to 3000 kms and back. Damn need strategic door busters!


11000ltr is almost equal to 9200kg. Let me state AMCA specs from recent DefEx poster. You can see for yourself if that is possible or not.

Take Off clean weight = 20000kg
Empty weight = 12000kg
External Stores = 5000kg
Length = 17.2 m
Wingspan = 10.6
height = 4.2


Just to put it in perspective let me list down F22 specs from wiki:

Loaded weight = 29400 kg
Empty weight = 19700kg
MTOW = 38000kg
Internal fuel = 8200 kg
Length = 18.92 m
Wingspan = 13.56 m
height = 5.08 m

PAKFA supposed to have 10300kg internal fuel and F35A stands at 8400kg.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Katare » 14 Apr 2018 19:18

AMCA protype development would start the moment funding is sanctioned, design is complete and frozen. Navy cheif wants it to start as navy platform first to be modified for IAF later. F414 chosen as initial engine, IAF/IN onboard. It will be the 5th gen aircraft of India. DRDO is not much involved with FGFA it is HAL’s baby and presently going no where.

DRDO chief

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Thakur_B » 14 Apr 2018 19:46

Cybaru wrote:Yeah, I just hope they manage around 11000 liters of internal fuel in this bird. So that it can carry 2000 pounds to 3000 kms and back. Damn need strategic door busters!


Ferry range of 6000km ? It's not B-2 bomber.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Cybaru » 16 Apr 2018 08:48

Thakur_B wrote:
Cybaru wrote:Yeah, I just hope they manage around 11000 liters of internal fuel in this bird. So that it can carry 2000 pounds to 3000 kms and back. Damn need strategic door busters!


Ferry range of 6000km ? It's not B-2 bomber.


Yeah, b2 is of the 6000 km range bird, but yes if pakfa doesn't come or if it comes with shitty engines, what are we gonna do? start with AHCA? Just some payload either 2 * 1000 lbs or 8 sdb to do long range sead missions and targets of high importance before the real show starts..

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Cybaru » 16 Apr 2018 09:48

DOn't forget that little pudgy medium size f35 carries more than 18000 lbs of internal fuel.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby JayS » 16 Apr 2018 11:12

Philip sahab, your post is moved where it belongs, whine thread, along with other posts replying to that.. Please continue discussion there if anyone wants to.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Philip » 16 Apr 2018 13:10

:rotfl: Will believe in AMCA when I first hear the "whine" of the Super Kaveri engine!

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Cybaru » 16 Apr 2018 13:13

JayS wrote:Take Off clean weight = 20000kg
Empty weight = 12000kg


So are you saying we are already pushing for roughly 8000 kgs of fuel? minus the weight of pilot and some stuff (200 kgs)


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