AMCA News and Discussions

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby JayS » 17 May 2018 13:01

^^Nice. Thanks for posting. Only thing I think the author has wrongly equated holes on splitter plates on fighters like EF2000 with those on YF23. The holes in many fighters on the front portion of the inlet are more for inlet shock position manipulation rather than large scale BL control.

Need to check bit more technical paper or report on why the YF23 uses those holes for. tiny holes don't look like they enough to suck significant amount of BL air unless there is a strong active control system with pumps doing the work. But the article says its passive system and I am bit skeptical about it.

PS: I checked some hi-res images. Its a mesh, perhaps covering a cavity which has opening on the top side of the wing. Not a porous media as I thought initially.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby jaysimha » 18 May 2018 12:17

There is a requirement for a consultatnt in the dept. of AMCA, ADA with following QRs in qualification and experience
https://www.ada.gov.in/currentdocs/consultantAMCA.pdf

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Vips » 18 May 2018 18:45

Tamil Nadu to build India’s next generation defence aircraft.

The Aeronautical Development Agency, which had conceived and designed the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas, has set the ball rolling for building the next generation defence aircraft, the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA), by extending an invitation to private players in Coimbatore to build a technology demonstrator.

The proposal is not only the first time an indigenous military aircraft programme is seeing the involvement of private players, but it is also the first time a defence plane development project is proposed to be executed outside Bengaluru.

The project — to be implemented in Sulur in Coimbatore district which may house the permanent base of the Tejas squadron — marks Tamil Nadu’s first major defence aircraft project.

Talking about the fifth generation aircraft that may eventually replace Tejas, ADA programme director Girish Deodhar said: “We’ve only invited an Expression of Interest and received application from a few industries. It’d be too early to reveal names or numbers as the project is in a preliminary phase and final clearance is awaited.”

The agency, created for the design and development of Tejas, has become relevant with the AMCA project and defence sources said the involvement of private players is in line with the Centre’s ‘Make In India’ programme and it could help with the project’s timelines.

“There’s a proposal to implement the project in Sulur and the decision is based on the fact that Bengaluru has no space for technology development. The HAL airport already has too much testing. We looked at Chitradurga but it was not feasible because there was a problem with the approach part of the field. Since Sulur has an airfield, it looks good,” Deodhar said.

According to ADA, private players will be required to manufacture, assemble and equip two fighter aircraft and for the first time the industry will be involved from the stage of developing a process plan, design and fabricate parts, manufacture both metallic and composite parts, prepare sub-assembly jigs, create subassemblies and transport them to the identified Flight Test Facility.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Rakesh » 25 May 2018 05:33

https://twitter.com/indiandefence11/sta ... 0096417792 ---> Here is DRDO developed Ultra Wide Band (ULB) Radar Absorbing Skin Prototypes which will be used for Indian Stealth Aircrafts like AMCA and AURA.

Image

Image

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Austin » 29 May 2018 10:47

Integration Analysis of Conceptual Design and Stealth-Aerodynamic Characteristics of Combat Aircraft

www.scielo.br/pdf/jatm/v8n1/1984-9648-jatm-8-1-0040.pdf

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby chola » 29 May 2018 17:30

Vips wrote:Tamil Nadu to build India’s next generation defence aircraft.

The Aeronautical Development Agency, which had conceived and designed the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas, has set the ball rolling for building the next generation defence aircraft, the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA), by extending an invitation to private players in Coimbatore to build a technology demonstrator.

The proposal is not only the first time an indigenous military aircraft programme is seeing the involvement of private players, but it is also the first time a defence plane development project is proposed to be executed outside Bengaluru.

The project — to be implemented in Sulur in Coimbatore district which may house the permanent base of the Tejas squadron — marks Tamil Nadu’s first major defence aircraft project.

Talking about the fifth generation aircraft that may eventually replace Tejas, ADA programme director Girish Deodhar said: “We’ve only invited an Expression of Interest and received application from a few industries. It’d be too early to reveal names or numbers as the project is in a preliminary phase and final clearance is awaited.”

The agency, created for the design and development of Tejas, has become relevant with the AMCA project and defence sources said the involvement of private players is in line with the Centre’s ‘Make In India’ programme and it could help with the project’s timelines.

“There’s a proposal to implement the project in Sulur and the decision is based on the fact that Bengaluru has no space for technology development. The HAL airport already has too much testing. We looked at Chitradurga but it was not feasible because there was a problem with the approach part of the field. Since Sulur has an airfield, it looks good,” Deodhar said.

According to ADA, private players will be required to manufacture, assemble and equip two fighter aircraft and for the first time the industry will be involved from the stage of developing a process plan, design and fabricate parts, manufacture both metallic and composite parts, prepare sub-assembly jigs, create subassemblies and transport them to the identified Flight Test Facility.


Tamil Nadu. Private sector.

The term for this GAME CHANGING.

You couple the private sector with Tamil efficiency, diligence and intelligence and you will have a winner. The AMCA will be on time and on budget if this is implemented. You mark my words.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Khalsa » 30 May 2018 02:44

All right , your words are marked.
The mithai will be on me.
Whats the time line ?

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby chola » 30 May 2018 09:36

Khalsa wrote:All right , your words are marked.
The mithai will be on me.
Whats the time line ?


Seven years for first flight from the date of establishment at Sulur.

Mewa tikki ...

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Philip » 30 May 2018 11:11

The success of the AMCA will depend upon proper management of the programme with a Dir.Gen. with " hire and fire" authority.Never done for the LCA, AM repeatedly chosen sabotaged by babudom.

Second point.Choice of engine critical.This failure plagued the HF-24 and lessened the performance capability of the LCA, grudgingly accepted by the IAF because of the heavy cost of alternative imports.We should also have two engines for prototypes if a US engine is one option as the threat of sanctions is very real as we are now being blackmailed over Ru purchases.The US is hell bent upon sabotaging our S-400 purchase as it will protect the subcontinent even from US attacks! The engine should have supercruise and TVC capability.

Three.Internal weapons bay should be large enough for BMos-NG and LR AAMs.At least 6-8 AAMs (BVR and WVR) should be in internal bays or as in the SU-57 also using conformal underwing mini bays for AAMs.

Thirdly, it should be designed and built for ease of maintenance.Stealth birds are notorious for excessive maintenance regimes.By 2030+ when the bird is being tested, there would be enough experience of stealth birds in other air forces to avoid problems.

Fourth, the proliferation of UCAVs would've hugely increased.The AMCA would have to have mother ship capabilities coordinating ops of other stealth UCAVs too, in a single-pilot friendly manner as possible requiring huge software development as we're seeing with the IAF programme whete software glitches have plagued the programme resulting in inevitable delays.

Finally,it must be built in sufficiently large numbers for economy of scale.Otherwise it will become unaffordable.The USN is buying more advanced F-18s.The USN is buying more F-18s becos of the cost-effective factor and delayed JSF induction.These legacy birds in their latest Avatar will compment the USN.The same requirement may also be required by the IAF when the AMCA enters service for similar reasons.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby chola » 30 May 2018 16:30

Philip wrote:The success of the AMCA will depend upon proper management of the programme with a Dir.Gen. with " hire and fire" authority.Never done for the LCA, AM repeatedly chosen sabotaged by babudom.

Second point.Choice of engine critical.This failure plagued the HF-24 and lessened the performance capability of the LCA, grudgingly accepted by the IAF because of the heavy cost of alternative imports.We should also have two engines for prototypes if a US engine is one option as the threat of sanctions is very real as we are now being blackmailed over Ru purchases.The US is hell bent upon sabotaging our S-400 purchase as it will protect the subcontinent even from US attacks! The engine should have supercruise and TVC capability.

Three.Internal weapons bay should be large enough for BMos-NG and LR AAMs.At least 6-8 AAMs (BVR and WVR) should be in internal bays or as in the SU-57 also using conformal underwing mini bays for AAMs.

Thirdly, it should be designed and built for ease of maintenance.Stealth birds are notorious for excessive maintenance regimes.By 2030+ when the bird is being tested, there would be enough experience of stealth birds in other air forces to avoid problems.

Fourth, the proliferation of UCAVs would've hugely increased.The AMCA would have to have mother ship capabilities coordinating ops of other stealth UCAVs too, in a single-pilot friendly manner as possible requiring huge software development as we're seeing with the IAF programme whete software glitches have plagued the programme resulting in inevitable delays.

Finally,it must be built in sufficiently large numbers for economy of scale.Otherwise it will become unaffordable.The USN is buying more advanced F-18s.The USN is buying more F-18s becos of the cost-effective factor and delayed JSF induction.These legacy birds in their latest Avatar will compment the USN.The same requirement may also be required by the IAF when the AMCA enters service for similar reasons.


Filipov, you are over thinking things. We already have the LCA to draw experience from.

What you need is proper business logic and planning. Create a design with specific specs related to the abilities that the nation possess now or will possess within the next decade so that the damn plane can be made.

No mission creep.

Once design is locked, we go forward no matter what.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Philip » 30 May 2018 17:52

The LCA was plagued by no head,no accountability.Just the other day I again read again APJAK's statement when handing over the baton to Dr.Atre in 2003,boasting that by "2010,we'll lave 200 LCAs flying"!

There must be a head of programme,not just a programme director under babu control. Even the best model will fail if there is no head and accountability.Look at the JSF programme for instance,Clearly empowered military heads like Gen.Bogdan and his naval successor,answerable to Congress.In developing various tech items,there will be red lines failing which the sequence will get delayed.Alternatives and options must be available in such cases ,if unavailable ,locally then identified from abroad.Putin didn't get his Bulava missile functioning after sev. failures by keeping on a celebrated missile designer.He wadsreplaced. It worked. If the fear of being replaced for failure is not there in the DPSUs,then we will repeat the LCA exercise over and over again. Yes,we have learnt a lot from the LCA,as one desi think tank put it well,"how not to build a fighter aircraft".

We'v turned the corner today however by the govt. of the day cracking the whip.Thanks to the insistence of the govt.that we must somehow induct a desi fighter or allow another opportunity to be missed,making us ever dependent upon firang suppliers with all the strings attached . The AMCA is another kettle of fish,being a stealth fighter which must be contemporary with other stealth birds in a decade's time. Therefore the key items-a few of which I've listed should be identified right now so that the most critical components are available on time and do not hold up
the rest of the programme.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Indranil » 30 May 2018 23:36

Please stop beating the same dead horse! Those who had to listen have listened. Those who won't listen, won't listen. It's not going to change if you repeat it every month!

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Khalsa » 31 May 2018 03:00

chola wrote:
Khalsa wrote:All right , your words are marked.
The mithai will be on me.
Whats the time line ?


Seven years for first flight from the date of establishment at Sulur.

Mewa tikki ...



Order has been recorded Saar.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby kit » 02 Jun 2018 18:26

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/indiandefence11/status/993432340096417792 ---> Here is DRDO developed Ultra Wide Band (ULB) Radar Absorbing Skin Prototypes which will be used for Indian Stealth Aircrafts like AMCA and AURA.


Cool 8)

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Rakesh » 20 Aug 2018 01:20

India building new fighter jet
https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... 731939.ece

The Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA), India’s next indigenous fighter, is expected to make its first flight by 2032. Development work on the jet is under way. “The AMCA will feature geometric stealth and will initially fly with two GE-414 engines. Once we develop our own engine, it can be replaced with that. We expect the first flight in 2032,” a defence source said. “There are two major ways of making a military platform stealthier. One is geometric stealth and other is material stealth. In geometric stealth, the shape of the aircraft is designed at such angles so as to deflect away maximum radar waves thereby minimising its radar cross section. In material stealth, radar-absorbing materials are used in making the aircraft which will absorb the radio waves thus reducing the radar footprint. The AMCA will initially be based on geometric stealth, we can look at material stealth at a later stage,” the source said. The Indian Air Force has given land to Defence Research & Development Organisation to set up facilities for the project.

The plan is to build on the capabilities and expertise developed during the development of the light combat aircraft (LCA) and produce a medium fifth generation fighter aircraft. “Apart from the technologies developed from the LCA project, the new fighter programme is important as technologies coming in through that will flow into the AMCA project,” another official source said. The aircraft will be powered by the same GE-414 engine on the LCA Mk-2 variant which is in the design phase. A GE-414 produces 98kN thrust compared to 84kN thrust of the GE-404 engine which is on the LCA Mk1. At Aero India 2016, DRDO officials had stated that the basic design configuration has been frozen after wind tunnel testing and there are three critical technologies that need to be developed -- stealth, thrust vectoring and super cruise. This is India’s only fifth generation aircraft programme following the decision not to go ahead with the fifth generation project with Russia.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Rakesh » 20 Aug 2018 01:26

With regards to the above author on geometric stealth and material stealth, please also see this...

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5739&p=2274437#p2274437

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Rishi_Tri » 20 Aug 2018 03:12

Rakesh wrote:India building new fighter jet
https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... 731939.ece

The Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA), India’s next indigenous fighter, is expected to make its first flight by 2032. Development work on the jet is under way. “The AMCA will feature geometric stealth and will initially fly with two GE-414 engines. Once we develop our own engine, it can be replaced with that. We expect the first flight in 2032,” a defence source said. .


2032??

Well NGTD spoke of 2022 for first flight. The Hindu added 10 years. Where was the source? In West of India or North of India?

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Philip » 20 Aug 2018 04:33

2032? Something seems out of order here.I think it looks like an error. It should be 2022, a more hopeful date unless LCA work on MK-2 etc. is slated as the next big thing to occupy the desi industry for the next decade.
And who would use an old GE engine 14 years from now!
It's got to be 2022.By 2032 we'll have a few 6th-gen birds arriving.

That explains the bit about shaping and materials.The first prototype will probably fly with less composites, conformal radars, etc. until developed while the aerodynamics are validated in flight testing.Give another decade for flight and weapons testing and 2032 is not a date too far off for it to be inducted into service given our laboured development and induction of the LCA MK-1.
"2032" was probably the date of service induction.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Gagan » 20 Aug 2018 06:46

Usual crookedness by Chindu

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Pratyush » 20 Aug 2018 09:29

Perhaps the official mis spoke. And said that instead of 2022.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 20 Aug 2018 09:58

if they are going to take up AMCA as a follow up of Mk2, then ?

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Philip » 20 Aug 2018 13:34

The timeline is far too long.If the first version flies only by 2032,then add another 8 yrs. ta least for inducting the bird,it will be 2040 when it enters service. On the other hand if a prototype can be readied by 2022 to validate the aerodynamic form in reality using stealth shaping as mentioned ,it makes more sense.

However.there's this report too.make what you want of it!
http://www.defencenews.in/article/Russi ... UAC-570108
[quote[View All Articles]
Russia, India Engaged in Talks on 5th Generation Fighter Jet - UAC
Monday, August 20, 2018
By: SPUTNIK News

Moscow and New Delhi are going ahead with discussions on the fifth generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) project despite media reports on India’s withdrawal, Yury Slyusar, the president of the Russian United Aircraft Corporation (UAC), said on Sunday.

"We have not closed the topic, we continue to discuss with India the joint development of the fifth generation [aircraft]. The topic is not closed. It was reported quite intensely that the Indians are exiting this project – they are not withdrawing from it, they just ask a really large number of questions, to which, in our opinion, we give exhaustive answers. As before, we proceed from the premise that the amount of technology that we are ready to transmit to India, no other country is not ready to transfer," Slyusar told the Rossyia 1 broadcaster.

In April, Director for International Cooperation at Russia's Rostec Viktor Kladov told Sputnik that Moscow had not received any notification from India on New Delhi's alleged withdrawal from FGFA, thus denying media reports about India's intention to leave the project.

The project implies that India will not only acquire new generation fighter jets, but will also launch their licensed production, according to the executive. Slyusar expressed his hope that the sides would switch to the design stage soon.

Under the Russian-Indian FGFA project, both sides would invest $4 billion each at the developmental stage, while the total cost of constructing 127 fighter jets is estimated to amount to $25 billion. In the project, the Russian side is represented by the Sukhoi aircraft manufacturer and the Indian side by Hindustan Aeronautics. The initial FGFA agreement was signed in 2007, the final agreement, which will include the project's financing conditions, is yet to be signed.
[/quote]

Frankly,given the costs involved,I don't think that anything soon will materialise. We seem to be fillibustering the issue,keeping our options open for acquisition should the need arise if china fields its own 5th-G birds on our borders,or sells them to pak.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby souravB » 20 Aug 2018 15:44

Reg the AMCA timeline, I feel we shouldn't pay much heed to unnamed govt sources but rather official DRDO docs.
ADA already has a EOI issued for the TD and according to chaiwallahs there are atleast 8 vendors that have shown interest and the vendor selection is supposed to be completed very soon now as the EOI submission date was 15th March 2018.
Even if ADA take 1 year to select vendor(s), we should be getting the first prototype by 2023 end.
Hindu is a respectable paper but shouldn't print stories that cannot be corroborated by SMEs.
Image

Here is the EOI for furthur reading
EOI doc

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Austin » 20 Aug 2018 21:18

From the offical time they start building FSED they would take 6-8 years the fly the first PT depending on the challenges they face during FSED phase.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Gagan » 03 Sep 2018 19:03

These in between timeline leaks are either DRDO sowing FUD, + DDM making a kichdi of the available information.
Reporter saabs can't distinguish an A380 from a microlite plane anyways

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby ArjunPandit » 03 Sep 2018 23:51

FUD??couldnt find on BRF Dictionary too

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Rahul M » 04 Sep 2018 01:49


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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby ArjunPandit » 04 Sep 2018 07:00

Rahul M wrote:fear uncertainty doubt.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear,_unc ... _and_doubt

Thanks Rahul, could it be added to bed dictionary, I don't have rights, elder would have done myself

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby ShauryaT » 04 Sep 2018 07:44

Is AMCA a funded project yet?

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Neshant » 04 Sep 2018 18:05

Just a thought.

The doors to the internal weapons bay should fold flat against the body of the aircraft when opened.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby nvishal » 04 Sep 2018 18:54

ShauryaT wrote:Is AMCA a funded project yet?

No. The engine is missing.

The chinese hooked their j20 prototypes with MKIs engine to kick start development. Indian engineers are yet to have that light bulb moment.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Rakesh » 04 Sep 2018 19:41

nvishal wrote:
ShauryaT wrote:Is AMCA a funded project yet?

No. The engine is missing.

The chinese hooked their j20 prototypes with MKIs engine to kick start development. Indian engineers are yet to have that light bulb moment.

I made that mistake on BRF that you can tack on any aero engine onto an aircraft and it will fly. I have been advised that is not the case. Engine dimensions and engine bay dimensions are the most crucial factors. Case in point - the M88 turbofan (that powers the Rafale) cannot be mounted onto a Tejas. For that matter, neither can the core of the M88 engine replace the Kabini core in the Kaveri turbofan. The dimensions do not work.

The J20 was designed from the outset to have the AL-31F turbofan and later on adopt a Chinese-developed engine --> the Shenyang WS-10. It remains to be seen whether the AMCA can fit a Al-31F turbofan in its engine bay. The AMCA is designed for the GE F414 turbofan and will later adopt an Indian-developed engine ---> an uprated Kaveri.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby nvishal » 04 Sep 2018 20:40

Rakesh, offcourse, the j20 fuselage is based on the al31. The AMCA fuselage too needs to be based on it.

Since the AMCA is still on paper, the design can be modified to accept the al31. There is no other alternative

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby kit » 04 Sep 2018 22:32

Philip wrote:The LCA was plagued by no head,no accountability.Just the other day I again read again APJAK's statement when handing over the baton to Dr.Atre in 2003,boasting that by "2010,we'll lave 200 LCAs flying"!

There must be a head of programme,not just a programme director under babu control. Even the best model will fail if there is no head and accountability.Look at the JSF programme for instance,Clearly empowered military heads like Gen.Bogdan and his naval successor,answerable to Congress.In developing various tech items,there will be red lines failing which the sequence will get delayed.Alternatives and options must be available in such cases ,if unavailable ,locally then identified from abroad.Putin didn't get his Bulava missile functioning after sev. failures by keeping on a celebrated missile designer.He wadsreplaced. It worked. If the fear of being replaced for failure is not there in the DPSUs,then we will repeat the LCA exercise over and over again. Yes,we have learnt a lot from the LCA,as one desi think tank put it well,"how not to build a fighter aircraft".

We'v turned the corner today however by the govt. of the day cracking the whip.Thanks to the insistence of the govt.that we must somehow induct a desi fighter or allow another opportunity to be missed,making us ever dependent upon firang suppliers with all the strings attached . The AMCA is another kettle of fish,being a stealth fighter which must be contemporary with other stealth birds in a decade's time. Therefore the key items-a few of which I've listed should be identified right now so that the most critical components are available on time and do not hold up
the rest of the programme.



your point being ??

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Cybaru » 05 Sep 2018 01:59

kit wrote:
Philip wrote:The LCA was plagued by no head,no accountability.Just the other day I again read again APJAK's statement when handing over the baton to Dr.Atre in 2003,boasting that by "2010,we'll lave 200 LCAs flying"!

your point being ??


Just the usual weekly put down! What else can it be? :shock:

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby chola » 05 Sep 2018 02:13

Rakesh wrote:
nvishal wrote:No. The engine is missing.

The chinese hooked their j20 prototypes with MKIs engine to kick start development. Indian engineers are yet to have that light bulb moment.

I made that mistake on BRF that you can tack on any aero engine onto an aircraft and it will fly. I have been advised that is not the case. Engine dimensions and engine bay dimensions are the most crucial factors. Case in point - the M88 turbofan (that powers the Rafale) cannot be mounted onto a Tejas. For that matter, neither can the core of the M88 engine replace the Kabini core in the Kaveri turbofan. The dimensions do not work.

The J20 was designed from the outset to have the AL-31F turbofan and later on adopt a Chinese-developed engine --> the Shenyang WS-10. It remains to be seen whether the AMCA can fit a Al-31F turbofan in its engine bay. The AMCA is designed for the GE F414 turbofan and will later adopt an Indian-developed engine ---> an uprated Kaveri.


No, I think it is pretty clear the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft will be using a F404/RD-33/Kaveri class engine. Twin Al-31s would make it a heavyweight fighter like the Flanker or J-20. In that case, we would have an AHCA.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby chola » 05 Sep 2018 02:27

We build the Al-31FP for the MKI with high localization of components. It might be smart to start our J-20 program (two Al-31s will inevitably lead to a J-20/SU-57 sized ac.) Or our very own J-10 with single Al-31.

Of course as gentlemen we would never think of this because we will never do anything beyond the letter of the temporary ToT provided by russkie contracts.

Gagan
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Gagan » 05 Sep 2018 19:21

Supercruise is missing in the current plans with the F-414.
Maybe with the AL31... ?
AL-31FP is built in HAL Koraput, along with RD-33, RD29, RD-25

SaiK
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 05 Sep 2018 20:39

why do you guys think super cruise is not possible with F414? furthermore, 414 is much more advanced than AL31fp

Gagan
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Gagan » 05 Sep 2018 21:01

Does the FA-18 E/F/G supercruise?


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