AMCA News and Discussions

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
kit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2740
Joined: 13 Jul 2006 18:16

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby kit » 11 Feb 2019 15:37

SaiK wrote:Slight OT, but okay

UK to invite India to co-develop 6th-Gen Fighter Aircraft 'Tempest'

http://www.defencenews.in/article.aspx?id=582996


That would be worthy of a new topic of discussion!

AMCA must come through , and there is a lot of momentum going on with the Tejas 1 1a and 2 .Can india afford to and at what level of access ?

Khalsa
BRFite
Posts: 1410
Joined: 12 Nov 2000 12:31
Location: NZL

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Khalsa » 11 Feb 2019 16:27

This tempest shempest is not happening sir.
When someone tells me they are going to partner with us because we can write good software... I call it BS.
A true partnership would begin much before that

Aerodynamics with stealth in mind
The use of 6th gen fighter and designing the whole ecosystem around it.

Basically with Brexit in hand the Brishits have run out of money and are trying their luck.


Leave it and move on.
We barely have enough money for Mk1A and Mk2.
With AMCA running on fumes ... where ithe tempest money coming from ?

JTull
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2399
Joined: 18 Jul 2001 11:31

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby JTull » 11 Feb 2019 17:06

Let us stop this nonsense about India becoming a partner of some foreign ponzi schemes. Brits are welcome to bring their tech and £ and become a partner in AMCA, that's if they have any left after the EU are done with them.

There's no way India (under Modi) is going to be giving large sums to a country that's a haven to anti-India and other fugitive elements.

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36162
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 11 Feb 2019 20:32

https://www.livefistdefence.com/2018/04 ... ghter.html

The Bittersweet Dilemma Of India’s AMCA 5th Generation Fighter

gaurav.p
BRFite
Posts: 114
Joined: 04 May 2018 23:02

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby gaurav.p » 11 Feb 2019 20:58

https://www.airrecognition.com/index.ph ... -2032.html

India's AMCA expected to make first flight by 2032
According to ADA, 2 Next Generation Technology Demonstrators (NGTD) of the AMCA are expected to make their first official flight. “The AMCA will feature geometric stealth and will initially fly with two GE-414 engines. Once we develop our own engines, it can be replaced with those…” said AMCA designer.

He added that “There are two major ways of making a military platform stealthier. One is geometric stealth and other is material stealth. In geometric stealth, the shape of the aircraft is designed at such angles so as to deflect away maximum radar waves thereby minimising its radar cross section. In material stealth, radar-absorbing materials are used in making the aircraft which will absorb the radio waves thus reducing the radar footprint. The AMCA will initially be based on geometric stealth, we can look at material stealth at a later stage. Apart from the technologies developed from the LCA project, the new fighter program is important as technologies now being demonstrated will be applicable to the AMCA project.”

The AMCA, designed by ADA, will then be produced by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL). The Indian DRDO as defined this aircraft as its "fifth-generation-plus platform" and expects that this advanced aircraft will procure the Indian Air Force the air superiority it seeks to gain.

This indigenous aircraft will be designed for ground attack, bombing, intercepting, strike and other various roles and will combine supercruise, stealth, advanced AESA radar, supermaneuverability and advanced avionics. India, through this project, again demonstrates its desire to give the priority to its own defense industry.


what is difference between 5th gen and 5+gen aircrafts? AFAIK, there are different designations of generations for different countries. Is there any specific to India released by IAF/MIC which define different generations of aircraft?

brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6997
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby brar_w » 11 Feb 2019 21:02

gaurav.p wrote:
what is difference between 5th gen and 5+gen aircrafts?


It is literally any set of attributes that you can come up with as this is a generally a matter of marketing and trying to position a product with a defined set of capabilities. I remember that an Editor at AvWeek a few years ago was trying to push the Gripen-E as 6th generation... :rotfl:

More importantly, it is the set of capabilities that the end-user determines it needs to meet certain clearly articulated mission needs. So if you wanted to be logical about it, think of 5+ gen as a set of capabilities beyond those currently possessed by 5th generation aircraft that either allow the 5+ genreation aircraft to conduct the same missions more effectively or opens up new missions.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 64520
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Singha » 11 Feb 2019 21:51

UK has a powerful media machinery.

they will position the Tempest as 6th gen and make it stick as much better than JSF mk2.

like a indulgent dad with a boastful son, the US will tolerate this mostly, until such time when they contest for a export order.

ArjunPandit
BRFite
Posts: 1873
Joined: 29 Mar 2017 06:37

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby ArjunPandit » 12 Feb 2019 00:29

well UK mic is on last legs. There is no harm in chai biscoot, They can be our guest through air india in ITC guest houses.

On a different note, could it be that AMCA was delayed because of Tejas. Few things may be tested on tejas, a proven flying platform, rather than AMCA.

What are the #requirements of AMCA? Sometime back I mentioned 6-10 sqdns, But there was disagreement around it. I would not expect us to invest anything in R&D for anything less than that. With PAKFA not in sight, there is scope for AMCA to fill in some of the roles. IIRC we had plans for some ~7 sqdns for fgfa in early 2010s

ArjunPandit
BRFite
Posts: 1873
Joined: 29 Mar 2017 06:37

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby ArjunPandit » 12 Feb 2019 01:39

http://idrw.org/trap-set-by-uk-to-choke-iafs-neck/
While it is an IDRW article. I like the tone and tenor of the article. In public discourse, quite often the role of shakuni brushed under the panthean of characters. I have never seen the analogy of shakuni in recent past. The author must be credited for bringing it back and giving the britshits what they deserve. That said, I am all for chai biskoot with bretards (that's my term for post brexit britishs)

Kartik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4105
Joined: 04 Feb 2004 12:31

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Kartik » 12 Feb 2019 05:46

brar_w wrote:
gaurav.p wrote:
what is difference between 5th gen and 5+gen aircrafts?


It is literally any set of attributes that you can come up with as this is a generally a matter of marketing and trying to position a product with a defined set of capabilities. I remember that an Editor at AvWeek a few years ago was trying to push the Gripen-E as 6th generation... :rotfl:

More importantly, it is the set of capabilities that the end-user determines it needs to meet certain clearly articulated mission needs. So if you wanted to be logical about it, think of 5+ gen as a set of capabilities beyond those currently possessed by 5th generation aircraft that either allow the 5+ genreation aircraft to conduct the same missions more effectively or opens up new missions.


Yes, Bill Sweetman. :lol:

He was so dead set against the F-35, calling it a lemon and a truck and what not that he started promoting the Gripen E/F left right and center. Lost a lot of his credibility with that stuff.

Reminds me of another such pompous ass in India named Prof Prodyut Das, who is so offended by the LCA program that he will even criticize it as being overweight, while extolling another program (the JF-17) and not mentioning that its empty weight is even slightly greater.

People with agendas who get to write articles in journals that are widely (or at least somewhat widely) read.

Manish_P
BRFite
Posts: 1701
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 17:34

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Manish_P » 12 Feb 2019 12:48

^ But nothing beats the folks of UAC/pravda. They are leap frogging direct to the 8th Gen :mrgreen:

Russia's eighth-generation aircraft to put NATO on its knees

Well almost nothing.. anyday i expect the chinese to announce their next gen fighter will come with first gen wrap tech.

Prasad
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7069
Joined: 16 Nov 2007 00:53
Location: Chennai

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Prasad » 14 Feb 2019 08:41

Well, finally managed to get the youtube channel unblocked. Here's a walkaround of the model at defexpo last year.


SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36162
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 19 Feb 2019 19:53

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1097858393073692672 ---> AMCA will fit into our fifth generation requirement. If it comes up in time, it will be our first option,” says the Indian Air Force.

Image

hemant_sai
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 42
Joined: 13 Dec 2018 12:13

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby hemant_sai » 19 Feb 2019 20:14

SaiK wrote:https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1097858393073692672 ---> AMCA will fit into our fifth generation requirement. If it comes up in time, it will be our first option,” says the Indian Air Force.

I would have loved to hear from IAF that they do not expect any import post 2024/25.

Make IAF an accountable party to AMCA development and give a clear message that "There is no other option".

It should be clearly notified that there will not be any import of fighter aircraft or fighter helicopter post 2024/25. Here import should be linked to actual schedule of delivery and not signing of contract. Just no delivery of imported fighters post 2024/25.

JayS
Forum Moderator
Posts: 3897
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby JayS » 20 Feb 2019 01:44

AMCA, India's first stealth fighter, likely to be airborne before 2025
https://english.manoramaonline.com/news ... -amca.html

Image

souravB
BRFite
Posts: 386
Joined: 07 Jun 2018 13:52

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby souravB » 20 Feb 2019 02:00

^^ The article refers to AMCA having DSI. The models seem to indicate having splitter plates. Is there any other confirmations on DSI yet? Also what would be the performance penalty of having DSI? I seem to recall reading somewhere DSI limits the max speed to upto Mach 2. If max speed is impacted then there could also be penalty for supercruise. If any gurus can shed some light on this please.

JayS
Forum Moderator
Posts: 3897
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby JayS » 20 Feb 2019 08:17

I dont know where he got that from.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 6658
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Rakesh » 20 Feb 2019 08:45

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1098052816986349568 ---> The AMCA display at Aero India 2019. The IAF said yesterday that this platform will be their priority 5th generation procurement ‘if it comes up in time’. A huge ‘if’, but work on at full pace. Update shortly.

Image

Image

Image

Image

Cybaru
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2225
Joined: 12 Jun 2000 11:31
Contact:

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Cybaru » 22 Feb 2019 01:23

with 3300 kgs of fuel in MWF, I don't think AMCA will have any less fuel than 6600 kgs. I think it will be closer to 8000 kgs as carrying external fuel tanks is really difficult to keep stealth advantage.

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36162
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 22 Feb 2019 01:33

we have to be extremely careful in not to delink stores and weapons as "stealth", and keep those separated as the stealth definition changes if we can fire any non-stealthy weapons from a stealthy platform.

nam
BRFite
Posts: 1876
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby nam » 22 Feb 2019 02:07

ADA should consider using some of the design ideas from AMCA in to LCA MK2, like the nose cone, boxy intake.

Will greatly help AMCA development.

If wishes were horse, they should have taken the AMCA design as the base and create a non-internal bay version of it..

brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6997
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby brar_w » 22 Feb 2019 02:11

nam wrote:ADA should consider using some of the design ideas from AMCA in to LCA MK2, like the nose cone, boxy intake.

Will greatly help AMCA development.


How many years of re-design, wind tunnel testing and risk do you think the IAF should be willing to cede for this to happen? Lets be realistic, the MWF is a really good and ambitious project and if everything goes smoothly it has a likelihood of being delivered to operational squadrons towards the end of the 2020's. Add some margin as risk which is quite common in the A&D sector. I don't think any additional risk should be added at this point. Let ADA and HAL deliver this at 24-48 aircraft a year by 2030. That will be a major achievement.
Last edited by brar_w on 22 Feb 2019 02:14, edited 1 time in total.

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36162
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 22 Feb 2019 02:12

If the engines to be used is same on both MWF Mk2 and AMCA, then I would seriously consider the same team to work out concurrent and component based LRUs to satisfy both these projects in one shot! lower costs, and lesser jigs and production systems.

We have to keep concurrency in mind going forward

brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6997
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby brar_w » 22 Feb 2019 02:17

In my opinion, it would be a very poor decision to add any more risk to the program and tinker around with trying to change things to allign with the AMCA at this point (beyond sensors, and avionics). ADA and HAL have to deliver the MWF within a reasonable time-frame as their primary customer (IAF) has replacement needs which usually have a cost and readiness component if delayed. The success of the AMCA depends upon the success of the MWF effort as the team and suppliers will learn and will be able to apply that knowledge. Most critical thing is to put an operational MWF out by 2030. A decade to do this is reasonable and should be doable if they are properly supported though the margins would be tight as there is always risk with advanced aerospace projects of this caliber.
Last edited by brar_w on 22 Feb 2019 02:27, edited 1 time in total.

nam
BRFite
Posts: 1876
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby nam » 22 Feb 2019 02:23

brar_w wrote:
How many years of re-design, wind tunnel testing and risk do you think the IAF should be willing to cede for this to happen? Lets be realistic, the MWF is a really good and ambitious project and if everything goes smoothly it has a likelihood of being delivered to operational squadrons towards the end of the 2020's. Add some margin as risk which is quite common in the A&D sector. I don't think any additional risk should be added at this point. Let ADA and HAL deliver this at 24-48 aircraft a year by 2030. That will be a major achievement.


If not for IAF, they should consider it for IN LCA, given it is now a divergent design anyways. ADA should utilize other projects to de-risk AMCA.

nam
BRFite
Posts: 1876
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby nam » 22 Feb 2019 02:30

I am so tempted to use the non-stealth AMCA as a MK2 solution, given that both are expected to have flight one year apart.

Get a non-stealth optimized version by 2023 and works towards IOC. Get the true stealth by 2024-25 and carry on.

It meets the medium category requirement, de-risk AMCA hugely.

Drawback is 2 engine, however MK2 is expected to replace Mig-29 & Jag, both dual engines!

Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 22734
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Austin » 22 Feb 2019 12:16

‘First AMCA flight in 6 years’: We interview the Director of India’s fifth generation stealth fighter program

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1098802839038685185

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 64520
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Singha » 22 Feb 2019 12:26

even if their first flights may happen close together, the MWF will reach IOC and FOC clean and fast as it will be based on proven Tejas tech base and available technology.

AMCA will need a host of new techs developed over next decade wrt to LO techs - materials, coatings, thermal sig, RF antenna sigs, .... new aesa radar , a host of EW sensors , new weapons for its internal bay if astra1/2/sant/saaw/brahmosNG need mods
I would expect a 10 year test program from first flight to IOC - BEST CASE.

Bharadwaj
BRFite
Posts: 215
Joined: 09 Oct 2006 11:09

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Bharadwaj » 22 Feb 2019 12:51

Dr. Gosh being understandably cagey about things... This is one program that needs to be structured like the N subs where funds and component procurement policies are not a hurdle.

souravB
BRFite
Posts: 386
Joined: 07 Jun 2018 13:52

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby souravB » 22 Feb 2019 15:42

As per the NGTD eoi, vendor chosen will have to deliver the first TD in 3.5 years from contract signing. If VEM technology is chosen already, won't they have to deliver the first airframe by 2022 end?
We might very well be seeing first flight in 2023. Hopefully it could be in the first half.

nam
BRFite
Posts: 1876
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby nam » 22 Feb 2019 15:48

VEM is delivering empty 1:1 airframe for RCS testing.

souravB
BRFite
Posts: 386
Joined: 07 Jun 2018 13:52

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby souravB » 22 Feb 2019 15:51

Isn't that's what the TD will be used for primarily? RCS measurements? to establish the geometric stealth.

nam
BRFite
Posts: 1876
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby nam » 22 Feb 2019 15:53

Singha wrote:even if their first flights may happen close together, the MWF will reach IOC and FOC clean and fast as it will be based on proven Tejas tech base and available technology.

AMCA will need a host of new techs developed over next decade wrt to LO techs - materials, coatings, thermal sig, RF antenna sigs, .... new aesa radar , a host of EW sensors , new weapons for its internal bay if astra1/2/sant/saaw/brahmosNG need mods
I would expect a 10 year test program from first flight to IOC - BEST CASE.


A non-full stealth version, use internal bay weapons only if available. Use the exact tech that is available for MK2. Once the stealth version is available with new weapons & tech, upgrade them if required.

ADA intend to have a version with external load. So create that first.

Fundamentally it will be a 2 engine LCA, with basic stealth shaping and usual composite. Will help the stealth program immensely to resolve flight testing and FBW.
Last edited by nam on 22 Feb 2019 16:02, edited 1 time in total.

nam
BRFite
Posts: 1876
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby nam » 22 Feb 2019 15:56

souravB wrote:Isn't that's what the TD will be used for primarily? RCS measurements? to establish the geometric stealth.


I guess they want to optimize the shape before building the TD. Rather than build the TD and then optimise it. I think it is sensible.

Given that fundamentally everyone is doing F22 clones, it should fly fine, with help from CLAW.

Reading that the shell for RCS testing will be available by end of this year.

souravB
BRFite
Posts: 386
Joined: 07 Jun 2018 13:52

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby souravB » 22 Feb 2019 16:29

Nam ji, yes that seems more logical than what I posted.

ArjunPandit
BRFite
Posts: 1873
Joined: 29 Mar 2017 06:37

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby ArjunPandit » 22 Feb 2019 21:21

^^phillipji we can always buy from Russia, let the kids try out something. let 5 programs fly :)

brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6997
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby brar_w » 22 Feb 2019 21:30

Philip wrote:As siad before, we can leapfrog 5th-gen tech by trying to turn the Mk-2 into a 5th-grn SE stealth bird ( which will have a good market)


How do you leapfrog 5th gen tech by trying to create another "5th gen stealth bird"? If you restrict yourself to a the OML of the MWF and try to make that into a stealth/LO design you will end up an extremely compromised aircraft with very poor combat performance, and fairly low range/payload and persistence. Low Observability requirement extracts some cost when it comes to weight, drag and overall design as to be 5th gen and LO you have to have an IWB, and have to be able to carry a large amount of fuel internally. There is a good reason that no one has attempted a single engine stealth fighter in this size/weight class. Once you add requirements for combat radius and persistence (similar to what many 4th gen aircraft get with EFT'/CFTs) and a decent payload (enough to be of utility given certain pre-defined mission scenarios) you end up with something that needs a minimum of 180-200 kN of thrust and once you go there you need 7000-8000 kg of fuel to cover most of the missions that 4+ gen MWF would have covered. There is no pixie dust that you can sprinkle over the MK2 that will magically transform it into a 5th generation aircraft with LO and other bells and whistles. Things do not work that way.

Low Observability and 5th generation capability pays off most in the offensive mission where you can utilize its advantages to get closer to the enemy and exploiting gaps in its defenses. You need this, despite the absurd and ill thought out claims of some that SO weapons can do everything, because your enemy always has a vote and is unlikely to be foolish enough to present some nice, juicy targets that are fixed and that can be mission planned hours if not days in advance - There will be many many targets that you will have to find, fix and the enemy will do its best to degrade your networks, move those high value capabilities (not fixed) and have plenty of decoys making discrimination challenging. In order to do this you need a decent magazine and good range/payload.

There is a reason why we have 8-10 5th generation aircraft or proposals from around the world and NONE have ever presented a light-medium class single engine stealth fighter. The performance penalty would make it a single trick pony capable of a small set of missions relatively close to its air-base. If the market for such a product is so good, why has no one anywhere around the world figured this out yet?

ADA and HAL work for a customer and the IAF has needs to replace the MiG-29's and M2K's beginning in the 2020's - 2030's and eventually thinking about replacing some of the early Su-30's in the 2035 timeframe. For the former the MWF is perfectly suited, if it can be readied in numbers by the early 2030s. For the latter, at least part of the mission can be replaced by the AMCA starting mid 2030's with other components being replaced by UAV/UCAVs and a potential 5th generation fighter purchase later next decade depending upon how things are going.
Last edited by brar_w on 22 Feb 2019 21:43, edited 1 time in total.

brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6997
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby brar_w » 22 Feb 2019 21:57

Philip wrote:THE ADA/ DRDO claim that they know all about 5th-gen birds and can do it.Therefore why wait for 2030 when 5th-gen will be passe?


No, ADA/DRDO claims that they have a path to get to 5th generation within the normal development, risk and time frame associated with such an advanced A&D project. There should be no doubt that this will be a 15+ year effort involving tackling of some really hard challenges that only a few in the world have so far surmounted.

Your statement about "why wait for 2030" shows a very high level of ignorance when it comes to understanding of how advanced A&D projects work, how many challenges need to be overcome to actually get high performance advanced combat aircraft to fruition. In the 1980's, Northrop engineers adopted the motto “A Miracle A Day” while working on the B-2 bomber engineering program. This work is really challenging and will involve a lot of "Firsts" for ADA (design), HAL (production) and other suppliers. What they are saying is that they have enough technology and knowledge in hand to embark on this journey...they cant sprinkle some fairy dust and compress the 15+ years it will take to actually field this aircraft into a 5-10 year period of performance. In fact no one in the world can. Boeing took 8 years from EMD contract award to IOC on the Super Hornet which was a major re-design of the Classic Hornet. Getting it to its first cruise took an additional 2.5 years for a total of 11 years of performance from contract award to actually sending the sub-variant into an operational deployment. This despite having a lot of wind tunnel data from Northrop's various planned upgrades to the basic configuration. The EMD time frames for a 5th generation aircraft are in the 15-17 year horizon not because people just like going slow but because these things are quite hard to do.

With the MK2/MWF ADA/HAL are proposing an aircraft that can basically get you close to 80% of what the Rafale delivers today and with the AMCA in the mid 2030's this will likely hold true for 5th generation aircraft that currently exist. This would be an amazing achievement and will have spillover effects across other A&D disciplines and requirements for future weapon needs of the IA, IAF and IN..

Philip wrote:The earlier statements that our AMCA would first fly sometime post 2030 is simply disastrous.


No it isn't. ADA and HAL have just delivered a top class 4+ generation aircraft and are now rightly embarking on a protracted development phase for the next jump in its capability to develop high end combat aircraft. These things aren't handed to you by god but developed through dedication and decades of hard work and by overcoming a heck of a lot of technical challenges. If ADA/HAL can develop a 5th generation aircraft and put it into service by 2035, this will be a MAJOR achievement and something that is worth celebrating.

Philip wrote:.Do you think that yhe IAF will want the AMCA around 2035 when the Tempest (JV for dev.) SU-57, JSF and other goodies will be dangled in front of their noses post 2020?


Do you think the IAF will want an LCA MK1 and MK1A when the Rafale, MiG-35, F-16, F/A-18 and EF Typhoon are being dangled in front of it and have been for over a decade now? Is the IAF not committed to the LCA MK1 and its iterations?

The IAF needs to plan for fleet recapitalization as well as figure out where it needs to grow qualitatively and quantitatively over the next 2 decades. There is plenty of room to absorb all LCA sub-variants, and the AMCA even from a pure fleet replacement point of view. Even if the IAF goes for Su-57, F-35 or a 2040's Tempest/SCAF there is no way that these aircraft can meet 100% of the IAF's fleet replacement needs in the 2030-2050 time-frame let alone meet any targets to actually enhance the size of the force depending upon threat perception during that timeframe.


There is a huge market for an SE stealth fighter.


Absolutely! 131 F-35's will be produced this calendar year alone nearly 40 more than the 90 odd produced in 2018. But there is little to no market for a single engine stealth fighter that can't fight most of the battles because it has a unusable payload and does not have the legs to actually get meaningful range/payload to target. To overcome those you need some basic performance which then moves you to a range of thrust requirements and weapons carriage ability/flexibility that I highlighted earlier. The design trades then basically force you to a twin engine configuration because sticking with a SE design you limit yourself to exactly 1 engine choice to choose from.

There is a difference between a single engine stealth fighter and a single engine stealth fighter that resembles the Tejas MK2/MWF in design parameters such as weight, range, engine/thrust etc. The former is currently the best selling fighter in the world, the latter concept is not being looked at by anyone with either the resources or the need to develop a 5th generation aircraft. And for good reason!
Last edited by brar_w on 22 Feb 2019 22:28, edited 5 times in total.

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19765
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Philip » 22 Feb 2019 22:12

Enough trolling Philip. You will NOT post on this thread anymore and any more rants, running down Indian programs on specious reasons, will attract a warning.
We had a good discussion and decent information flowing in, and your poorly researched rants are as usual detracting from quality posts.
Enough is enough.

Thanks,
KM

Thakur_B
BRFite
Posts: 1294
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Postby Thakur_B » 22 Feb 2019 22:25

MiG-35 in 2020 is not obsolete but AMCA in 2030 is. Okay. The mental malkhamb vyayam required for this is out of bounds for mere mortals like us.


Return to “Military Issues & History Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: brar_w, gaurav.p, Jaeger, kapio and 54 guests