Transport Aircraft for IAF

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pragnya
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby pragnya » 06 Jun 2011 14:34

Singha

AN-70 though a turboprop has similar specs compared to IL 76 and was supposed to go into production by 2011/12 with deliveries to the ukrainian AF. there were some reports that the production may be delayed till 2016.

if the problems between russians and ukrainians are resolved, doesn't it make sense to join the programme as a partner and may be create a base in india for both spares/aircraft?? they would be most happy to welcome as they badly need funds. they are way cheaper than the western counterparts too.

btw Ukraine had proposed to india - the joint development of AN 178 last year?? what happened to it??

Ukraine offers to co-develop transport aircraft with India

"Ukraine has offered to jointly produce a 10-12 tonne class weight aircraft with us based on their already existing Antonov-148 commercial aircraft and the proposal is being considered by the government," defence ministry officials told PTI.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Pratyush » 06 Jun 2011 14:41

I hope to see the Il bird in IAF colours as well soon. But am not too confident that it will take place.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Pratyush » 06 Jun 2011 14:42

pragnya wrote:
SNIP..............

Ukraine offers to co-develop transport aircraft with India

"Ukraine has offered to jointly produce a 10-12 tonne class weight aircraft with us based on their already existing Antonov-148 commercial aircraft and the proposal is being considered by the government," defence ministry officials told PTI.


The GOI sat on the request and went on to reafferm the MRTA project.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Austin » 06 Jun 2011 14:54

The GOI sat on the project because the IAF needs a 20 T payload aircraft not a 10-12 ton An-148 nor a 15 T stretched An-158 (An-178 ) , the IAF did not compromised on its requirement.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Pratyush » 06 Jun 2011 14:55

Yet it is open to the Idea of the C 27, which is claimed to be be an 11 to airlifter.


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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby chackojoseph » 06 Jun 2011 15:56


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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Singha » 06 Jun 2011 17:22

iirc China has purchased the AN70 design and license production/cloning/modding rights from Ukraine.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonov_An-70

A turbofan-powered larger variant is also under co-development with China, reportedly to be named An-70-600.[

the chinese Y-x will use the AN70 design but have turbofan engines
http://www.upi.com/Business_News/Securi ... 228237053/

China's decision to design its own large military transport aircraft on the foundation of the Antonov An-70 technologies is apparently intended to take advantage of the extensive testing the aircraft already has undergone, to save research and development time.

The Antonov company source has confirmed the Chinese military transport aircraft will not be fitted with the Antonov An-70's D-27 engine, though it did not disclose what type of engine will be used. The D-27 engine has an output thrust power of 14,000 horsepower, maximum payload of 47 tons and a flight range of 4,050 miles with a payload of 20 tons.

China recently imported 240 D-30 KP-2 engines from Russia to use in upgrading its own, home-produced H-6K bombers. It is unlikely that this engine would be used for the military transport plane, however. Russia is already replacing some of the D-30 KP-2 engines on its Ilyushin Il-76 air-lifter with upgraded D-30 KP-3 or PS-90 engines. The D-30 KP-2 does not meet Europe's latest noise control standards, so the Ilyushin Il-76 military air transport powered by these engines are not allowed to land at European airports.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Singha » 06 Jun 2011 17:30

as far as I can make out, the chinese ordered 35 IL76 in 2005 from tashkent but till date have no received anything. it is said the new IL76 production to be taken up in Ulyanovsk might fulfill this order but as of Dec2010 was yet to be ready for IL-476 production.
now the 1st IL-476 is delivered to jordan, the production line may be finally operational.

be interesting to see the fate of AN-124T and Mi-26T - both fill a specialized niche with zero competition from any challenger.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Singha » 06 Jun 2011 17:37

Rus is shafting china over iL76 to extract a higher price + they are many years late .

from a sino defence forum.
http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/air-for ... 6-197.html
Russian-Chinese deal of 38 Ilyushin aircraft suspended (repeat)

Moscow. May 14. INTERFAX-AVN - The execution of a contract for the sale
of 34 Ilyushin Il-76MD military transport aircraft and four Il-78 tanker
planes by Russia to China has virtually grounded to a halt, Viktor
Livanov, the general director of the Ilyushin aircraft company, told
Interfax.
The sale of the planes at the price indicated on the contract will
inflict huge losses on the company, Livanov said. "Discussions are
underway, including with the Chinese side, on how to implement the
contract in this situation," he said.
Aircraft production costs have soared as prices for materials and
components have risen significantly recently, and the dollar exchange
rate has simultaneously gone down, Livanov said. All these factors have
made the contract unprofitable, he said.
The contract to ship 38 planes to China was signed in September 2005.
Experts estimated its value at about $1.5 billion. The first planes were
supposed to be shipped to China in 2007, and the contract should be
implemented by 2012.
China confirmed the contract's validity in February 2007, but Russia has
not yet done so. The first plane is supposed to be shipped to China 16
months after the contract is mutually confirmed.
As the Tashkent aircraft manufacturing association has proven unable to
fulfill the contract, the transfer of the Il-76 production to Ulyanovsk
is now under consideration.
.....
Russia Raises Jet Export Prices for China
Russia is to review terms for a $1 billion deal to sell 38 transport aircrafts
to China. The Russian side has decided to set up production of the jets in
Russia instead of Uzbekistan and drive up the contract's price to $1.5 billion.
Russia is going to suggest reviewing terms for a $1 billion contract with China
to deliver 34 Il-76 troop-carriers and 4 jet refuellers to Beijing, a Kommersant
source reported Tuesday. The deal was signed between Rosoboronexport and the
Chinese Defense Ministry in 2005.

Director of the Russian Industry Agency Boris Aleshin has confirmed the
information, saying that all the jets are going to be produced at a plant in
Ulyanovsk. The first jet is to be sent to China in 2010, not in 2007 as was
planned. Mr. Aleshin explained that Russia decided to transfer production from
Uzbekistan to Russia as jets will be offered "in a new technical package."
Therefore, the price of the contract is subject to review, the official added.

A source of Kommersant in the military industry said on Tuesday that the Il-76
jets for China are to be equipped with the newest PS-90 engines instead of older
D-30s. The source also said that the parties would discuss increasing the
contract price by $500,000 million.

United Aircraft Building Corporation President Alexey Fyodorov said in an
interview with Kommersant that Russia and China would discuss the contract in
the nearest future.

Industry experts predict that Beijing will agree to new terms, but will bargain
better terms for other military deals with Russia.
----
Meanwhile irrespectively of the Chinese answer Russia is arranging manufacturing of Il-76 in Ulyanovsk. The upgraded aircraft, which will meet all possible technical requirements in the foreseeable future, is needed by the Russian Air Force. Ilyushin estimates the market of Il-76 and its modifications at 150 units before 2015. Half of that accounts for the Russian Air Force. However, Ilyushin admits that it will take longer, probably up to 2025 to satisfy this demand. By 2009 the government will allocate RUB 6.4 billion for establishing serial manufacturing in Ulyanovsk. Victor Livanov called these allocations “all necessary means”. As of today Ulyanovsk based Aviastar plans to make 10 Il-76 of different modifications from 2012.
This development goes parallel to the development of another manufacturer of Ilyushin aircraft. In particular, by 2015 Voronezh based VASO intends to hire over 7000 people due to the increase of the production. Totally the plant will employ 16000-20000 staff. Recently the United Aviation-building Company approved the production program for VASO. Before 2015 it includes production of the small military-transport Il-112, long-haul Il-96 (transport and passenger), Russian-Ukrainian medium An-148, blocks for Sukhoi Super Jet - 100 and parts for Airbus. In total it is planned to make 262 planes of different types. Finally, but very importantly, VASO is likely to participate in the construction of the new generation regional plane of MS-21 from 2012. This aircraft is deemed as the core of the Russian breakthrough in the civil aviation.
----


so in the end with all this hu-ha, the chinis will get their 38 IL76 order fullfilled in 2025, which indicates only 2 ac delivery every year - if the Rus are not lying to avoid hard work :)

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby sum » 06 Jun 2011 18:20

The sale of the planes at the price indicated on the contract will
inflict huge losses on the company, Livanov said. "Discussions are
underway, including with the Chinese side, on how to implement the
contract in this situation," he said.

Errr, shouldnt the Russian side people who negotiated the contract be kicked instead of trying to escape honouring the contract ( even if it is to PRC)?

Seems like a Vik redux...

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby UBanerjee » 06 Jun 2011 19:03

^^ Symptomatic of their arms industry in general nowadays- there have been some hard times. Hopefully it picks up.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Juggi G » 06 Jun 2011 19:05

A USAF C-17 at Leh for Indian Trials in 2010

Image

Photo via Shiv Aroor

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby rohitvats » 06 Jun 2011 19:25

Now, that is a great find Juggi G!!!

And till now, all we thought was that the so-called high-alt. trials were done at Kangra Airport in Himanchal (couple of hours from Pathankot). My spider brain now tells me that may be, the trials in Kangra were to simulate forward small airports across NE. May be even paved ALG.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Surya » 06 Jun 2011 19:35

as some of us were saying the IAF did check this aircraft out for ITS needs

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby devesh » 06 Jun 2011 19:39

^^^
sum ji,
why should India go all noble and high-minded about a Russo-Chinese dispute???? seems counter productive...

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby chackojoseph » 06 Jun 2011 20:09

C-17 was the best suited when it went through the technology scan.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Gurneesh » 06 Jun 2011 20:40

I am also happy about the engine test facility that we are reportedly getting as a part of Offsets deal.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Sanku » 06 Jun 2011 20:55

Gurneesh wrote:I am also happy about the engine test facility that we are reportedly getting as a part of Offsets deal.


That would be about the only thing which would justify the FMS deal. I hope its true.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby nachiket » 06 Jun 2011 21:35

Surya wrote:as some of us were saying the IAF did check this aircraft out for ITS needs

Yes. And the "us" included ACM Naik. But apparently that wasn't enough for someone.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Surya » 06 Jun 2011 22:42

nachi

:)

chacko

there were not too many options - not withstanding grandiose claims of mythical assembly lines of AN 124s , IL 476s, rent as you go fleets, superb availabilty of our exisiting ILs yada yada yada



Price was the only concern and hopefully we got a decent deal.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby svinayak » 06 Jun 2011 23:30

Surya wrote:
there were not too many options -

Only because there are not too many options.
The reason India has to fund these gigantic military is because the same suppliers are supplying PRC and PLA who are making claims on Indian geography. This has been going on for the last 40 years
PLA capability in Tibet is directly based on its logistics tail and this is done using imported transport planes.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Philip » 07 Jun 2011 05:55

The restructuring of Russian transport aircraft industry is taking place,key bird the IL-476 at Ulyanovsk.The "deep modernisation" (extra range,payload,avionics,etc.,etc.) of the aircraft,including a civilian version,now to be finally delivered from a Russian facility and not Tashkent,will ensure teeth-to-tail delivery wth no hiccup from component suppliers as in the past.AWST also reports that the flight deck will be identical with that of the Russo-Indian MTA,which indicates the undercurrents.6 aircraft are being offered for the IAF's tanker req.Add to that is the fact that we have so many IL-76s in the inventory and simply cannot dump the lot and acquire new aircraft-even the C-17 will take it time in arriving,at phenomenal cost.Upgraded Il-76s with MRO on a global tender now is a sensible way to go,if reliable support from the new facility is going to take time as the original OEMs are history.

Looking at the PRC's "buy" of the AN-70,I would even contemplate manufacturing the IL-76 in India given our large req. of such a type not just for transport needs,but also for specialised versions like tankers,AEW,SIGINT,ASW,etc.We would need in the decades to come at least 40-50 new aircraft to replace existing Il-76s and the most cost-effective replacement would be indigenous production,wih components outsourced to Indian pvt. aerospace industry,also for the MTA if their are going to be cockpit commonalities with the MTA.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Austin » 07 Jun 2011 07:59

PRC buying An-70 news has no substance , right now An-70 is going through complete modernisation before it starts its flight testing program , realistically An-70 would be available by 2015.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Singha » 07 Jun 2011 08:25

PRC did not buy the AN70. they bought the design to use for their own with turbofan engines supplied by Rus/Ukr. we can expect that project to bear some fruit in a few years.

PRC is not a fool, they realize they need to manufacture their own large transporter than rely on that 38 x IL76 which will take 15 years to arrive and obviously might suffer from same spares issues we face.

even if we got the MTA route, we should make sure every nut and bolt is made in India at higher cost and preferably use a western engine in our version. otherwise do not worry and license make and fund the KC390 instead, perhaps evolving a variant customized to the IAFs needs. HAL will still get plenty of work to satisfy its labour unions and plenty of guaranteed orders to keep its coffers overflowing.

I realize transport aircraft is a cultural backwater in BR - dueling over flashy kit like rafale or sensor fused munitions attracts the eyeballs, but this is all about getting the right amt of people & munitions into the fight on time every time. there is nothing more important than transport a/c vs the lizard who has flat lines of march up and down the tibet plateau vs our steep climb from north indian plains.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby chackojoseph » 07 Jun 2011 09:22

C-130 J and C-17 were always on IAF wish list. Just that they were not avaliable then for the current terms.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby SaiK » 07 Jun 2011 09:28

Soon.. it would be known, what all LRUs getting stripped off! I'd wish we already started thinking about integrating third party or home grown ones to replace the stripped ones.
--
pandyan wrote:^What mistake did the SDREs do?


if I may.. we threw away the 'Gu' in gubo or we had it, but did not 'Bo'. With the khans, we have no choice anyways.
Last edited by SaiK on 07 Jun 2011 09:35, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Austin » 07 Jun 2011 09:35

Singha wrote:PRC did not buy the AN70. they bought the design to use for their own with turbofan engines supplied by Rus/Ukr. we can expect that project to bear some fruit in a few years.


Probably consulting type arrangement from Antonov or IL , recent pictures of Y-20/Y-X and article by PiBU says its a 50 T class bird with 200 T Take of Weight more in IL-76 class.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby chackojoseph » 07 Jun 2011 09:53

SaiK wrote:Soon.. it would be known, what all LRUs getting stripped off!


It is a good thing. IMO, we should just retain the shell and engines. Anything critical should be commonly operable with IAF equipment.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Singha » 07 Jun 2011 10:00

todays TOI has a listing of arms deals in the bag for US and future plans:
rough count puts $10b of confirmed orders
around $3.5b of potential orders

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 753953.cms

Arms deals in the bag

* 2002: $190 million for 12 AN/TPQ-37 firefinder weapon-locating radars

* 2005: Rs 937 crore for three VVIP Boeing Business Jets

* 2006: $92.5 million for amphibious vessel USS Trenton, with 6 UH-3H helicopters

* 2007: $1.2 billion for 6 C-130J `Super Hercules' aircraft

* 2009: $2.1 billion for 8 P-8I Poseidon maritime patrol aircraft

* 2010: $170 million for 24 Harpoon Block-II missiles to arm Jaguar fighters

* 2010: $822 million for 99 GE F-414 engines for Tejas Light Combat Aircraft

* 2010: $257 million for 512 CBU-105 sensor-fuzed weapons

* 2011: $4.1 billion for 10 C-17 Globemaster-III strategic airlift aircraft

In pipeline

* Four more P-8Is for almost $1 billion

* Six more C-130Js for over $1 billion

* 145 M-777 ultra-light howitzers for $647 million

* Multi-million dollar deal for Javelin anti-tank guided missiles

I am thinking in a few years we might buy another 10 C17 to cover for and go beyond retirement for older IL76MDs.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Hitesh » 07 Jun 2011 10:12

It would be a very good idea to phase the Il-76s out and buy up to 30 - 35 C-17s providing that we get more offsets. Furthermore, we need to seriously replace our An-32s planes and look for a 200 transport fleet plane replacement such as the KC360 or MRTA. It would provide a bigger bang for the buck than the MMRCA could ever provide.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Singha » 07 Jun 2011 10:39

agreed . but its hard to find the cash immediately for so many C17 . has to be a phased process. I agree there is no point attempting to MLU the older IL76 now, just flog them to the limit and then discard. the newer Midas/Phalcons can ofcourse be kept around for 2 decades atleast...thats a 30% subset of our fleet.

the AN32 upg is already in progress. cannot throw away 100 airframes. what we can do is stop sitting on our thumbs wrt MTA or pandering to any political lobby . make a military decision to go either way and apply the boot to decision makers to speed up this deal and start production say in 5 yrs time at full volume.

I have been hearing the MTA thing since kargil ! since them my kid was born and is in class-1 now. hope he is not on verge of marriage by IOC :((

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Hitesh » 07 Jun 2011 11:02

Because of the critical importance of the Phalcons and the tankers, I would just stop using the Il-76s and use them as spare repository for the Phalcons and the Tankers. Actually I would just phase the tankers out too because the tankers can easily replaced by the Airbus 330 tankers. The Phalcons are unique and irreplaceable. So necessary build up of spares for the Phalcons are a must.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Philip » 07 Jun 2011 12:15

Dear Pandyan,pl. check out the Indo-Russian thread where the Indian ambassador has clearly said that Russia informed us in March that the naval exercises stood cancelled because of the Japanese tsunami disaster! They did not turn up the little finger at us and on the contrary,most large nations ,especially a superpower like Russia are very careful with breach of protocol.

Reg. IL-476 supplies,support,etc.,the Russians have assured the GOI (that progress in Russian transport aircraft production also reported by AWST in their latest issues),that final IL-476 production is now being carried out in Russia,and that there would be no support problems as experienced earlier when IL-76s were finished in Tashkent (Uzbekistan).The last few (3) being built in Tashkent are nearing delivery.In this thread there are other reports on the good progress on the Indo-Russian MTA,etc.China is buying 36+ IL-476s also apart from Russia's own requirements and the production line fopr over 100+ aircraft should last for at least a decade+.Western reports alone indicate the resurgence in Russia's aircraft/military industry,where restructuring is taking place apace and large orders from Russia itself is fuelling a boom in military wepaon systems production.The MI-17V medium helo is the world's most successful helo in production,in use all over including hotspots like Afghanistan,and second-hand MI-8/17s are also in great in demand.India has ordered 80+ of them, perhaps even more. Look at the successful Talwar class block-2 frigate construction .One has to judge each deal on its merit and cannot label an entire country unreliable because one or two systems/deals experience problems.Even the west has given us a headache with the BAe Hawk problems,old US Sea Kings on the Trenton/Jalashwa,not to mention the Scorpene delay and cost overruns-a few years,just like that of the Gorshkov!

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby sum » 07 Jun 2011 13:06

Dear Pandyan,pl. check out the Indo-Russian thread where the Indian ambassador has clearly said that Russia informed us in March that the naval exercises stood cancelled because of the Japanese tsunami disaster! They did not turn up the little finger at us and on the contrary,most large nations ,especially a superpower like Russia are very careful with breach of protocol.

Really?
So it is Indian fault that we blindly went to Russia despite being asked to not come. Pity, IN/GoI never knew this fact.

Also, the same ships then exercised by themselves after sending SDREs away...am sure that was post-Tsunami maneuvers.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby jai » 07 Jun 2011 13:08

Any idea if the spares issue is also affecting the Russians and other Russian equipment user countries or is it just a problem being faced by us ?

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Singha » 07 Jun 2011 13:25

name few other countries which
[a] use their russian equipment in volume
[b] need high uptime and spares pipeline to fight real wars and not just parade/H&D

the Rus af having low combat readiness for conventional war vs paper inventory is not a huge secret.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Pratik_S » 07 Jun 2011 13:34

I would be rather optimistic when it comes to MTA considering the fact that in past 3-4 years the IAF is putting a lot of emphasis on buying new transport aircrafts and upgrading its existing fleet of transport aircraft. Also surprisingly, the purchase contract of C-130J's, C-17 and upgradation contract for An-32's were completed in record time. IAF is probably working on its transport arm with renewed energy. Well atleast it seems so.


PDF file of C-17's presented at Aero India-2011. Covers Indian FET's.
http://www.boeing.com/AeroIndia2011/pdf ... iefing.pdf

(edited to include PDF file)

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Austin » 07 Jun 2011 14:24

Singha wrote:name few other countries which
[a] use their russian equipment in volume
[b] need high uptime and spares pipeline to fight real wars and not just parade/H&D


Nice question and a difficult one to answer major nations using Russin equipment I can think of besides India is China,Vietnam , Algeria , CIS/CSTO countries will have mostly Russian/SU equipment other countries in smaller proportions will be Venezuela , Iran ,Malaysia , Indonesia .......

Its really difficult to find uptime figures of any armed forces , we do not know the uptimes say for IAF

the Rus af having low combat readiness for conventional war vs paper inventory is not a huge secret.


Yes in the 90's it was bad but since early 2000 it got better , its really hard to find out uptimes as those are operational matters but the last time they fought any thing close to war was with Georgia in a Washington sponsored war , they did quite well made Saakashvili chew his tie and Condi to fly in for support and some hard talk from Washington that made Larov smile.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Philip » 07 Jun 2011 17:38

For the record,X-posted from the Indo-Russian thread.

"Russian security tsar to discuss sensitive issues in India

Quote:
Patrushev is to call on Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and hold parleys with National Security Advisor Shivshankar Menon on sensitive issues like military-technical cooperation, interaction in energy, including civilian nuclear and hydrocarbons, space research, and international and regional security issues, according to sources here.

During meetings on Monday, Patrushev is expected to clear the situation about the last moment cancellation of joint naval war games by Russia in April could also come up at Patrushev’s New Delhi talks.

Indian Ambassador to Russia Ajai Malhotra said the Russian navy had informed in mid-March about cancellation of the Indra 2011 naval war games due to Japan disaster and denied that they were put off after the arrival of three warships of the Indian Navy to Vladivostok."


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