Transport Aircraft for IAF

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Singha
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by Singha »

> C-17s fly from Ramstein Air Base in Germany to Afghanistan, approximately 26 hours each way and 10,000 miles round trip

the 26 hrs part looks like typo. Delhi-London is 9 hrs, so its likely 6 hrs from ramstein to bagram/kandahar. distance is probably 3000 miles?
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by sum »

Browne said that the sixth and last of the aircraft was due in India in the first half of November, and the government had already approved the acquisition of another six aircraft. The first of the six aircraft was delivered in early 2011.
Why the go slow when it comes to refuellers and the express sanction when it comes to the C-130J and Phalcons follow up orders?

Is the IAF not really too concerned about the status of refuellers currently and satisfied with what is has?
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by nachiket »

sum wrote: Why the go slow when it comes to refuellers and the express sanction when it comes to the C-130J and Phalcons follow up orders?

Is the IAF not really too concerned about the status of refuellers currently and satisfied with what is has?
My 2 paise. The problem is not with the IAF. The problem is that the refueler tender has hit an impasse. The IAF does not want the IL-78 and the FinMin is refusing to sanction the A-330 when a cheaper option is available. It's a question of 'who blinks first?' now.
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by sum »

^^ That is true but if IAF desperately wanted for tankers, am sure that they would have accepted Il-78s for the next batch also and gone ahead....but, they have not done so despite knowing that when against FinMin/MoD, the babus always win....

Somehow, that made me feel that IAF is OK with the 6 currently and can afford to have a stand-off with MoD on the next batch without getting too desperate..( IMHO of course)
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by Singha »

inshallah, 6 MRTT refuelers and 6 Phalcon-A330 + 6 JSTARS-A330 will be a combo deal.
each refueler can offload enough fuel (90t) to sustain a good force of interceptors in the air, apart from helping returning and depleted strike birds low on fuel to top up enough to disappear safely into our rear bases.

its about time we stepped up the game in our favour and went for a JSTARs radar (with israeli/thales help) mounted on the high endurance A330 platform. flying well within protected airspace, it should be able to pickup ground movement on a huge tract

infact I wonder why we apparently have shown no interest in such a program yet but keep dhoti shivering about the air threat...maybe the slow buildup of our comms links, BMS, FDL, sensor-to-shooter tightening the loop means such a platform cannot now be exploited to the fuller extent the US/USamy does, but whatever it can provide is a value add, esp good coverage of enemy movement at night and bad weather. helps to avoid wasted effort.
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by Sanku »

Singha wrote:> C-17s fly from Ramstein Air Base in Germany to Afghanistan, approximately 26 hours each way and 10,000 miles round trip

the 26 hrs part looks like typo. Delhi-London is 9 hrs, so its likely 6 hrs from ramstein to bagram/kandahar. distance is probably 3000 miles?
Perhaps they fly through a Boeing plant on mainland US to determine what the press release should say about their mythical operations.

:rotfl:
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by Sanku »

sum wrote:
Browne said that the sixth and last of the aircraft was due in India in the first half of November, and the government had already approved the acquisition of another six aircraft. The first of the six aircraft was delivered in early 2011.
Why the go slow when it comes to refuellers and the express sanction when it comes to the C-130J and Phalcons follow up orders?

Is the IAF not really too concerned about the status of refuellers currently and satisfied with what is has?
Forget tankers, everything which does not have a C-XXX designation seems to be not particularly in a tearing hurry for Indian forces.

However it is critical that we aquire ability to provide foodstuff to troops flying over a distance of 3000 Kms.

I say food stuffs not because food stuff is not important, but because with the given procurement policy the only thing Indian forces will have will be C-XXX and foodstuffs.

The arty guns et al can be shipped in a decade or two later.
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by NRao »

sum wrote:
Browne said that the sixth and last of the aircraft was due in India in the first half of November, and the government had already approved the acquisition of another six aircraft. The first of the six aircraft was delivered in early 2011.
Why the go slow when it comes to refuellers and the express sanction when it comes to the C-130J and Falcons follow up orders?

Is the IAF not really too concerned about the status of refuellers currently and satisfied with what is has?
(You need to stop feeding trolls!! :mrgreen: )

Select:
a) The refuellers did NOT come with microwaves or bunkers or Stolli
b) Refuellers did NOT have enough gloss on their brochures. Marketing dept was not good enough or corrupt enough
c) Refueler company did not employ people whose son-in-laws were Indian
d) C-130J and Phalcon has gained a following in the user community within the IAF
e) Follow-on orders are nothing more than exercising options for the planes when they were first ordered
f) Canadians did not approve of the refueler because they had very bad imaginary experience with it or may have even confused it with their supposed bad experience with the C-17
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by NRao »

And, just BTW, ONLY for the record ..........the gift to Russia JUST went up from 50 to 166, in the form of PAK-FA, with ONLY 48 FGFAs:

IAF Chief: 214 FGFAs, HAL Tejas Clearance Delayed, MRCA Deliveries by 2014 and more..

Arm twisting at its best.
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by Sanku »

NRao wrote:And, just BTW, ONLY for the record ..........the gift to Russia JUST went up from 50 to 166, in the form of PAK-FA, with ONLY 48 FGFAs:

IAF Chief: 214 FGFAs, HAL Tejas Clearance Delayed, MRCA Deliveries by 2014 and more..

Arm twisting at its best.
When you purchase something useful that too on a shared tech basis, it is not called a gift.

A gift is when a plane which doesnt really fit into Indian scheme of things is bought at speed 100x faster than any other purchase at very high costs -- from a company which was going to be forced to shut down the line if the order did not come through pronto.

Yeah, let C 17 purchase have the same characteristics as a FGFA deal, I for sure wont be complaining.

That would take another 50 years of US downslide to happen though or more.
:lol:
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by Philip »

Boys,I surrender! My decadent capitalist needs were not meant to wound the feelings and sore backsides of our gallant naval aviators in their Bears.But isn't it true that so many of our beloved countrymen and women existing on a fat purse of 32 rupees can afford the luxury of a rock solid earthquake-proof RCC pipe? But I ask you,why the discrimination when in some subs,we have splendid comforts by comparison? Yanqui subs MUST have their ice-cream vending machines,the comrades their spas,so why not some comforts in the air? I am certainly not against crew bunks,why I'm all for it.If the A-380s and Dreamliners can have their crew comforts then why not a sound-proof cell in a Bear? Yes, I know how loud it can get inside a Bear in the air! Plus there's ample room in a Bear for a decent-sized bar.I'll make a promise.If the IN will install a bar aboard every Bear,I'll supply each bar with a really fine bottle of malt for the crew (the Russkies can supply the Stoli)!

Good to hear about the extra Hercules orders.I've always maintained that we need lots of them for Himalayan tasks,not to forget Entebbe.
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by NRao »

Six More C-130Js For IAF In Afterglow Of First Contract
Indian Air Force chief Air Chief Marshal Norman Browne today showered praise on Lockheed-Martin's execution of the Indian C-130J Super Hercules contract. With a contract for six more C-130Js in the final stages (through the foreign military sales or FMS route), the IAF chief revealed that the Indian government would be benefitting from a discount of approximately Rs 400 crore in the new contract as a result of savings accured during the execution of the contract for the original six (five delivered, with the sixth to arrive next month). "It is the first time in history that we have received aircraft earlier than the agreed date, and I commend the programme for its execution," the IAF chief said at his annual press conference today. When I asked him if the six follow-on C-130Js would be of the same configuration as the original six, he said, "There will be some improvements."
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by Sanku »

^^^^

Afterglow eh!! Interesting choice of phrase. :)
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by Nihat »

NRao wrote:Six More C-130Js For IAF In Afterglow Of First Contract
Indian Air Force chief Air Chief Marshal Norman Browne today showered praise on Lockheed-Martin's execution of the Indian C-130J Super Hercules contract. With a contract for six more C-130Js in the final stages (through the foreign military sales or FMS route), the IAF chief revealed that the Indian government would be benefitting from a discount of approximately Rs 400 crore in the new contract as a result of savings accured during the execution of the contract for the original six (five delivered, with the sixth to arrive next month). "It is the first time in history that we have received aircraft earlier than the agreed date, and I commend the programme for its execution," the IAF chief said at his annual press conference today. When I asked him if the six follow-on C-130Js would be of the same configuration as the original six, he said, "There will be some improvements."
This is particularly nice to know , for years now we've dealt with delayed deliveries, spares and maintenance troubles and what not. The C-130J and P8I set refreshing examples, hopefully C-17's will follow the same way.
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by Multatuli »

The BSF was also interested in the C-130 Hercules, I believe. This would be a good opportunity to buy more then the additional 6. Instead of 6, India could order an additional 24 or so. All airforces that operate Hercules transport aircraft are pleased with the Hercules. A large order for more C-130's ( 24 - 30 ) would go down well with the US senate and congress.
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by Hitesh »

I do not understand why IAF did not buy more An-32s. They are very cheap to purchase. They could have easily purchase 200 of them. Moreover, as for the Hercules, IAF need to purchase at least 80 of them. And up the purchase orders of C-17s to 24. That will take care of all of India's airlift requirements.
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by NRao »

^^^^^

Simple answer is that IAF has matured. They seem to have a game plan - we are not privey to it (for good reason).

However, during my net scapes, there are couple of things I got to know.

The Soviets had no real need for fuelers because they at umpteen airfields - all over their map. This led them NOT to design their planes for IFR!!!! Thus a LOT, if not most, of RuAF - today - do not have recepticals. Plain and simple, there was no need.

The result - today - is that RuAF has projected (like any other AF - nothing wrong there) a need for the future (for fuelers). The problem is that RuAF will not have sufficient planes to fuel until way into the future. (I do not have details what are their options - as in reconfig their current planes for refueling - yet.) But, one thing is for certain, no plan appears on the horizon to deal with this situation.

My feel is that until this conjointed twins remain in power Russia is not going to perform up to her potential. IMVVHO, it is in their interest to make Russia under perform.

Under these circumstances (based on my analysis granted) IAF will pick and choose. With that in mind I FEEL, that the PAK-FA will be something the IAF will buy into (they have), but will not touch the 476 - even if they make total sense from an economic PoV.
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by Sanku »

NRao wrote:^^^^^

Simple answer is that IAF has matured. They seem to have a game plan - we are not privey to it (for good reason).
.
:rotfl:

That seems to become a staple excuse on BRF whenever GoI does something so wonderful that it is impossible to ascribe even "Chanikaness" to it.

It seems to be trotted out on every excuse, from dossier diplomacy and inaction with Pakistan to capitulating to US demands to hair brained procurement policies.
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by Austin »

****deleted******
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by Philip »

Hitesh,I think that the AN-32 is no longer in production and earlier during Soviet days,the factories were spread out all over the USSR with final assembly at one main plant,which is why the Russians are now consolidating their aircraft industry within Russia,amalgamating the various design bureaus,cutting down on waste and duplication in administration ,and are now making large orders for newer versions of legacy aircraft like the IL-76,now IL-476,etc.The AN-32 was also specifically designed for the IAF and almost all,100 of them are being upgraded in the Ukraine.
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by Austin »

The An-32 LTA production has long stopped , they are being replaced in Ukranian and RuAF by passenger/transport An-140/140T types that would superceed the An-32.
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by merlin »

Multatuli wrote:The BSF was also interested in the C-130 Hercules, I believe. This would be a good opportunity to buy more then the additional 6. Instead of 6, India could order an additional 24 or so. All airforces that operate Hercules transport aircraft are pleased with the Hercules. A large order for more C-130's ( 24 - 30 ) would go down well with the US senate and congress.
And IAF needs to please the senate and congress? Why?
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by Surya »

would go down well with the US senate and congress.
why do we need silly statements like this to derail this thread.
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by Hitesh »

What about the ATR-72? It could replace the An-32s and they only cost $20million apiece. Better payload, range, and carry more people.
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by Pratyush »

^^^

Poor rough field performance. Though it can easily replace the Hs 748.
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by Hitesh »

It would have been an issue 25 years ago but since with the recent spate of building new paved airfields, that may not be such a problem.
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by shiv »

Hitesh wrote:What about the ATR-72? It could replace the An-32s and they only cost $20million apiece. Better payload, range, and carry more people.
Here are some answers
http://www.strategypage.com/militaryforums/28-74.aspx
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by Multatuli »

And IAF needs to please the senate and congress? Why?
Neither the IAF nor the GOI needs to please the US senate/congress/GOTUS, however suppose India purchased 18 C-17 Globemasters to replace the ageing Ilyushin Il-76 Gajraj's and some 36 C-130J Super Hercules aircraft in one go, wouldn't that give the GOI more leverage with the US. India buys transport aircraft worth billions from the US and the US does something for us in return. For example, I would like India to be part of the supply chain of Lockheed and Boeing and not just for a few simple to manufacture parts.
why do we need silly statements like this to derail this thread.
Oh dear, silly me! What was I thinking! I think I better stop posting in this forum.
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by Gilles »

Katare wrote:
NRao wrote:2007 :: Military Airlift: C-17 Aircraft Program

It appears that C17 flies daily to multiple forward airstrips in Afghanistan that are described as "nothing but packed dirt runway" and ~3500ft long.

..... C-17s fly directly to forward operating bases in Afghanistan. C-17s fly from Ramstein Air Base in Germany to Afghanistan, approximately 26 hours each way and 10,000 miles round trip.13 C-17s have also flown missions from U.S. bases directly to forward operating locations in Afghanistan.[/b]14

While distance is clearly a challenge, overflight, and infrastructure challenges
appear to be even more burdensome. Most of the Afghan airfields from which C-17s
operate are short (~3,500 feet), and strewn with debris and potholes. Some airfields
are nothing more than packed dirt.
C-5s cannot operate from these primitive
airfields.15 For security reasons, C-17s offload cargo as quickly as possible (usually
with engines running), make unscheduled landings, and fly seemingly erratic routes.16
This is all BS and a pack of lies.
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by Gilles »

I even wanted to write to Christopher Bolkcom, the analyst at the Congressional Research Service, who wrote this piece, to tell him how much his sources had misled him about the C-17, but found out he had passed away in 2009.
Katare
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by Katare »

wow! what comes from your finger tips appears to be lies, hate, bias and BS to me.......

You have not shown a single piece of data for any of your arguments ever.......just using force of repeatition is not going to make you right......

In this forum people go by open source published info, not by made-up facts or argument.......
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by Singha »

why is the C5 considered to have a low uptime vs C17/C130 ?

is it the older gen engine, or something inherently wrong with its airframe, avionics or cargo system?
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by Paul »

Saw the C5 @ the miramar airshow in SD last week. C17 is half the size of the C5. A huge lumbering beast. The Ospreys were interesting to watch. The inside of the cabon is no different than a helicopter...it is a smaller size then the CH53 but is stwice as fast. The USAF personnel were very courteous and were giving me sideways glances ...trying to decide why swarthy looking SDRE is asking questions about C17 cabin length etc.

Best aspect of the airshow for me was the Mistubishi Zero. Amazing how these planes are still in working condition. There was an indiot from Oracle (no, not Larry) who was showing off his single engine oracle plane o half intrested audience who could not get enough of the F16s, Hornets, Harriers and the Blue angels......a truely memorable show..
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by GeorgeWelch »

Singha wrote:why is the C5 considered to have a low uptime vs C17/C130 ?

is it the older gen engine, or something inherently wrong with its airframe, avionics or cargo system?
It is a massively complicated system designed and built before the technology was really ready to support it

it was cutting edge when built . . . before the era of computers and miniaturization

the C-17 was a much less ambitious program using more mature, well-understood technologies

not to mention the whole C-5A series was basically hand-built, so pulling spares from one plane to use on another is problematic

obviously the engine and avionics are issues, and those are being addressed with the C-5M program, but even the rest of the airframe is just a tremendous burden to keep flying
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by Vipul »

IAF to induct Boeing C-17 strategic heavy transporters from 2013.

The Indian Air Force (IAF) will induct the first of the ten Boeing-manufactured C-17 Globemaster-III heavy airlift transport aircraft it has on order in June 2013, before placing a follow-on order for six more. It has plans to induct as many as 20 of these strategic heavy-lifters, but currently has government sanction for 16.

Speaking to a defence magazine, IAF chief, air chief marshal Norman Anil Kumar Browne, said that Boeing would deliver all the 10 aircraft between 2013 and 2014, and based on operational satisfaction the IAF would then consider placing orders for an additional six.

According to the ACM, induction of all 16 aircraft should be complete by 2015. "C-17 Globemaster III aircraft are expected to be inducted between 2013 and 2015," he said.The air chief also clarified that though the IAF planned to acquire 20 such aircraft, as of now it had government clearance for just 16.

The IAF expects to sign contracts for an additional six C-17s sometime in 2013.The first lot of 10 aircraft were ordered in June this year under the aegis of the US government's Foreign Military Sales (FMS) programme, which is a government-to-government contract.

The order is worth $4.1 billion, and includes training and support package as well as 30 per cent offset investment into India's defence programmes.

Boeing officials did mention to visiting Indian journalists at a C-17 manufacturing facility last year that the company could accelerate production and ensure deliveries ahead of schedule.Boeing has met all US Air Force (USAF) orders and its C-17 production line will close once the last few orders are delivered over the next three to four years. The production capacity has already been halved to ten aircraft a year so that the factory can continue operations in the hope that can land some more international orders.

Even with a small number of 10-16 of these airlifters, India will be Boeing's second biggest customer for these aircraft. The United Arab Emirates (UAE), with six aircraft, is the third largest.

USAF has a total order for 223 aircraft, and uses the C-17 extensively to support combat operations in Afghanistan and Iraq.

Lockheed Martin too has delivered all six C-130J aircraft on order with the IAF before schedule and is in line for additional orders of six more. The IAF received its first C-130J in February this year and the sixth is due in November.
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by NRao »

Gilles wrote:
I even wanted to write to Christopher Bolkcom, the analyst at the Congressional Research Service, who wrote this piece, to tell him how much his sources had misled him about the C-17, but found out he had passed away in 2009.
Sorry to hear that.

BUT, WE are alive!!!!!!

So, post away.
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by NRao »

NRao
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by NRao »

NDTV :: Flying a Boeing C-17

Listen to audio @ 7:00 onwards - on landing, even on prepared surfaces.
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by NRao »

Juggi G
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by Juggi G »

IAF will induct its C 17 Globemasters from 2013
..:: India Strategic ::..
IAF will induct its C 17 Globemasters from 2013
By Gulshan Luthra
Published: October 2011

New Delhi. The Indian Air Force (IAF) will induct its 10 C 17 Globemaster-III airlifters beginning June 2013, and then order six more.

Chief of the Air Staff Air Chief Marshal N A K Browne told India Strategic in an Interview that Boeing would deliver all the already ordered 10 aircraft between 2013 and 2014, and that once the IAF was satisfied with the performance of the aircraft after induction, six more would be ordered.

By 2015, the Induction of all the 16 aircraft should be complete.


“The C-17 Globemaster III aircraft are expected to be inducted between 2013 and 2015,” he said.

Air Chief Marshal Browne said that IAF had actually planned to acquire 20 aircraft but right now,
it had the approval for 16 aircraft from the Ministry of Defence,
10 in the first lot and then Six more after the first few of the aircraft are received.


The aircraft had done well during the rigorous tests for short takeoffs and night operations, and IAF is preparing a number of its airbases, including in the mountainous north and north-eastern Himalayan region, for C 17 and Lockheed Martin’s C 130J Super Hercules aircraft. The latter have in fact already begun relief operations in the north-eastern region of the country following the recent earthquake.

Both the aircraft can be refueled midair and would be networked with IAF’s air and ground assets.

IAF hopes to sign the contract for the Additional Six within 2013.

The contract for the first lot of 10 aircraft was signed in June this year in accordance with the US Government’s Foreign Sales Programme (FMS) under a Government-to-Government deal for US$ 4.1 billion, which included a training and support package as well as 30 per cent offset investment back into India in defence programmes.

Notably, Boeing officials had told a group of Indian journalists visiting the C 17 manufacturing facility at Long Beach in California last year that the company could accelerate the production and deliver the required number before scheduled time.

Boeing has nearly completed the US Air Force requirement, and its C 17 production line is due to close after the last few orders are delivered over the next three or four years. The production capacity has already been decreased by one third from 15 to 10 aircraft a year so that the factory can continue a little longer for a few more possible international orders.

"We do expect the lower production rate combined with strong international interest to extend the C-17 line for many years," a Boeing spokesperson said.

Nearly 235 of these long-range heavy lift aircraft have been delivered so far, and even with a small number of 10 or 16 airlifters, India will be its second biggest customer. The United Arab Emirates (UAE), with six aircraft, is the third largest.

USAF has a total order for 223 aircraft, and the C 17 has been extensively used to support combat operations in Afghanistan and Iraq as well as humanitarian missions across the world including in Pakistan.

It may be noted that even the Lockheed Martin is delivering all the six C 130J aircraft before scheduled delivery time, and this is the first time ever that IAF has received its aircraft from a foreign supplier without delay, on or before time, and without any additional demands on cost.

IAF received the first C 130J Super Hercules in February 2011 and the last and sixth is due here November 11.
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