Transport Aircraft for IAF

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Austin
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Austin » 09 May 2013 17:41

Sancho wrote:Can anybody tell me if we have to take the same engine for our MTAs, that Russia will choose or is there a possibility to take a western engine?
Would it be possible to take the same airframe like the Russians, but include western avionics and engines for exports reasons and build them in India?


MTA is advertised with russian engine only either PS-90A76 or PD-14 series

PS-90A-76 http://www.avid.ru/eng/products/civil/PS-90A-76/
PD-14 http://www.avid.ru/eng/advanced-developments/pd-14_/

We can opt for Western Engine but that would involve Time and Cost for certifying the aircraft with another engine.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby NRao » 09 May 2013 18:32

If one googles they can find articles that claim India would prefer a Western engine for the MTA. One of the earliest notes (of dual-mode):

Therefore, it is very likely that the Indian Defense Ministry will prefer a Western-made engine such as the Rolls-Royce BR715 or Snecma CFM56, which will allow to develop and flight test of the aircraft until Russian engines are ready


However, there was an article just a few weeks ago that stated that Western engines were rejected for technical reasons. Cannot find that article right now.

OK, here goes:

Feb, 2013 :: United Aircraft boss urges full MTA contract

The newer and more fuel-efficient PS-14 engine being developed for Irkut's MC-21 narrowbody airliner is likely to power later examples of the MTA. But an earlier Indian proposal to use the CFM International CFM56 has been dropped after an evaluation of its thermal dynamics and required performance when operating from hot, high and dusty airfields.


Interesting stuff here:

However, the final engine choice remains the responsibility of the MTAL joint venture and the Russian and Indian air forces. Specialists from both services are working closely with the industry to determine the maximum airfield elevation for operating the MTA from, with "an idea" to increase an earlier maximum target of 10,800ft (3,300m) to 13,400ft. Livanov says that if this is advanced, "the PS-90A76 might not deliver the required thrust and come short in other characteristics".


The PS-90A76 is meant for the new IL-476?

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby nits » 09 May 2013 19:20

As per the below article we are replacing Avro fleet by 56 new transport aircraft; which is estimated to cost 13000 Crore which means 230 Crore per Aircraft... aren;t we paying on a Higher side for per aircraft or this is a Life Cycle cost ?

Click for article at IDRW

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Austin » 09 May 2013 19:49

As far as engine goes in AI 2013 it was confirmed that PS-90A76 will be used

http://airfleet.ru/arhiv/n2_2018/russia_s_aviation_industry_in_2010_from_sukhoi_pak_fa_to_tupolev_tu-204sm/

Speaking to journalists at Aero India 2013 on the issue of powering MTA, Victor Livanov confirmed that the readily available Aviadvigatel PS-90A76 – the motor has already been selected for the Il-76MD-90 and Il-76MD-90A/Project 476 - is the primary candidate to equip development prototypes and initial production batch of the MTA aircraft that shall appear in the 2017-2018 timeframe.

The more recent and fuel efficient PD-14, being developed for the Irkut MC-21 narrowbody passenger jetliner, is considered in the role of the primary MTA power when this motor becomes available. At the same time, the earlier Indian proposition of the CFMI CFM-56 has been dropped after more careful evaluation with focus on thermodynamics and required performance when operating from hot and high - and dusty - airfields.

There is "an idea" to increase the earlier target of 3,300m evaluation up to 4,100m and even above. In Livanov's view, this will severely get the engine requirements up, "so that the PS-90A76 might not be able deliver the required thrust” due to limitations of its thermodynamics. The current production version of this motor develops a thrust of 14 tons while its thermodynamics allows a maximum thrust of 16-17 tons (in case of zero aerodrome evaluation and standard atmosphere). Livanov concluded that the PD-14 is likely to be developed in a very special version for the MTA to take account of the specific requirements to airlifter's power as compared to the baseline version for the passenger airliner.
Last edited by Austin on 09 May 2013 19:52, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Austin » 09 May 2013 19:51

So it seems from the Designer that PS-90A76 will power the prototype and initial production batches , if the idea to operate MTA at 4100 m and above ever takes concrete action then a specialised version of PD-14 will be developed.

Also confirms that CFM-56 does not meet the Hot and High performance of IAF

I doubt though once an engine is selected they would change it at a later date.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Sancho » 09 May 2013 20:07

Austin wrote:MTA is advertised with russian engine only either PS-90A76 or PD-14 series

PS-90A-76 http://www.avid.ru/eng/products/civil/PS-90A-76/
PD-14 http://www.avid.ru/eng/advanced-developments/pd-14_/

We can opt for Western Engine but that would involve Time and Cost for certifying the aircraft with another engine.


I know and the Russians definitely have an interest in selling us MTA with their engines of course. Just thinking about possible alternatives, either for Indian forces, or possibly for export customers that we want to attract. The PW2000 of the C17 for example could be one, also interesting (but not sure if technically feasable, what do you think?) would be the TP400 of A400M. Which would not only give a western engine alternative, but several benefits of a turbo prop aircraft too (again for military and civil markets).

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Austin » 09 May 2013 20:16

An engine with similar thrust available from Western engine players are LEAP-X from CFM and PW1400G from Prat & Whitney ...which has 15-16 T of Thrust. So IAF can look into it if they are keen for a Western Engine.

Both the engines are modern 5th Gen type and are in class of PD-14 type.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby NRao » 09 May 2013 20:36

Mar, 2013 :: MTA to enter global market

The Russian version of the aircraft is due to be fitted with PS-90A-76 engines each with a thrust of 14.5 metric tons. It is not yet known which engines the Indian version of the MTA will feature.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Sancho » 09 May 2013 20:54

Austin wrote:An engine with similar thrust available from Western engine players are LEAP-X from CFM and PW1400G from Prat & Whitney ...which has 15-16 T of Thrust. So IAF can look into it if they are keen for a Western Engine.

Both the engines are modern 5th Gen type and are in class of PD-14 type.


What do you think about the TP400, would it be possible to integrate it into MTA, which basically makes it to C160 class aircraft and would offer not only a western alternative, but as I said more variety possible MTA varients too:

http://s14.directupload.net/images/130509/kjxyq964.jpg

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Austin » 09 May 2013 21:29

I am not sure if there any a single design that comes both in TP and Turbofan variant ....never came across MTA variant being converted to TP perhaps neither did AF of both nations asked for it.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Sancho » 09 May 2013 22:19

Austin wrote:I am not sure if there any a single design that comes both in TP and Turbofan variant ....never came across MTA variant being converted to TP perhaps neither did AF of both nations asked for it.


That's what we plan with RTA:

Image

My point is, to not see MTA and RTA as 2 different developments, but combine them in once to get more benefit out of it. Since we are a partner in the MTA, we can further expand the requirements and varients that we want to develop, either according to the needs of our forces, but also if we think there is a potential defence or civil export market for such a varient. We do the same with Brahmos varients as well, which Russia might not be interested in, or won't buy, but which can be offered on the export market

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Austin » 09 May 2013 22:39

In theory we have lots of plans and wonderful CGI , we had plans to build 50 seater and 100 seater which was unveiled at AI 97 but since then it just remains plans .....now we have NCAD and RTA so lets see where they go from CGI ..... i have yet to see any firm commitment from GOI or any business model to sell it ....all things are just on paper and CGI.

MTA is a military transport aircraft and conversion to civil variant is not possible due to fuel economic and other reasons.....reason why boeing builds 747 and 787 and does not build a 400 seater C-17 civil.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Sancho » 09 May 2013 23:59

Austin wrote:In theory we have lots of plans and wonderful CGI , we had plans to build 50 seater and 100 seater which was unveiled at AI 97 but since then it just remains plans .....now we have NCAD and RTA so lets see where they go from CGI ..... i have yet to see any firm commitment from GOI or any business model to sell it ....all things are just on paper and CGI.


Exactly and they will remain dreams if we don't get more realistic. The MTA will come for sure, a civil passenger version with up to 100 seats was considered from the start too. So adding the ideas we had for RTA into MTA would be a logical approach right?

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Indranil » 10 May 2013 00:17

Sancho wrote:
Austin wrote:In theory we have lots of plans and wonderful CGI , we had plans to build 50 seater and 100 seater which was unveiled at AI 97 but since then it just remains plans .....now we have NCAD and RTA so lets see where they go from CGI ..... i have yet to see any firm commitment from GOI or any business model to sell it ....all things are just on paper and CGI.


Exactly and they will remain dreams if we don't get more realistic. The MTA will come for sure, a civil passenger version with up to 100 seats was considered from the start too. So adding the ideas we had for RTA into MTA would be a logical approach right?

I agree.

Meanwhile, they found out that the 95% common system is not attainable. So the turbofan variant was changed to the conventional low-wing turbofan.
Image

And then they dropped the turboprop variant altogether.
Image


And I agree with both of you. Unfortunately, I don't have much hope from the NCAD team. I am rooting against hope-hopen for the Tata-UAC JV on AN-145/155/175 or Tata-IL JV on IL-112/114 or XYZ-SAAB JV on SAAB2000.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Sancho » 10 May 2013 01:06

indranilroy wrote:I agree.

Meanwhile, they found out that the 95% common system is not attainable. So the turbofan variant was changed to the conventional low-wing turbofan.
Image


Actually that are 2 different concepts and has nothing to do with the engines itself. The one is a low wing design that could be used as the base for bigger aircraft developments later. While the other was the high wing design, more similar to ATR aircrafts and there I don't see a reason why MTA shouldn't be possible with 2 different enginese, since the aircraft design is not different for both.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Indranil » 10 May 2013 03:13

Sancho wrote:While the other was the high wing design, more similar to ATR aircrafts and there I don't see a reason why MTA shouldn't be possible with 2 different enginese, since the aircraft design is not different for both.


They are different. A cargo plane has a much wider body to accommodate a wide variety of cargo. Also, since cargo is much more denser than human beings sitting 1 mtr apart, military cargo planes are typically shorter than civilian planes. MTA can definitely be turned into a passenger plane, but it will not be very efficient. For example the MTA-civilian version was supposed to carry 90-100 people. A civilian plane of same MTOW uses engines which produce 1/3rd of the thrust and carry 130 passengers. That will definitely weigh on the operators minds. However, it will be great if they can take the wing, tail, avionics etc. from the MTA and just build a fuselage optimized for civilian usage.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Singha » 10 May 2013 06:19

The fat single deck fuselage, strongly stressed floor for point loads, wing box above the roof and bulky canoe fairings for undercarriage are not what makes a civilian efficient plane in an age when airlines are willing to pay anything for a 5% more fuel economy. The wing again in cargo haulers will generally be thicker and feature high lift devices.

I am afraid the only thing common could be production tools, cockpit and maybe some parts here and there...if you want a really efficient plane...else if you want rugged aeroflot mode flying into some siberian outposts with sacks of food and passengers all together like a parachute regiment it will do. But no civil airline in india will buy it.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Singha » 10 May 2013 09:42

the C130J template might be the best bet then. even the C17 has special floor level sliding racks with seats for passenger cargo.
http://cryptome.org/eyeball/c17-swank/pict34.jpg

but I realize C17 is a bit out of our league right now. a smaller C130J sized bird with such sliding seat system might work. just remove them partially for cargo in the back section.
some tricky calculations wrt COG will need to be done though....most planes prefer to balance the cargo evenly around the COG for fuel efficiency and safety. in the pic above there is some cargo dumped by the rear ramp.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Nikhil T » 10 May 2013 10:05

Avro replacement transport aircraft: Rs 28,000 crore IAF order up for grabs


By Ajai Shukla
Business Standard, 10th May 13

The defence ministry (MoD) today issued a Request for Proposals (RfP) to eight foreign aerospace vendors, inviting tenders for co-producing 56 medium transport aircraft to replace the Indian Air Force’s (IAF’s) aging fleet of Hawker Siddeley 748M Avro aircraft. The deal could be worth about Rs 28,000 crore. :-? :!:

The proposal requires the vendor to deliver 16 aircraft in flyaway condition and build 40 in facilities to be established with an Indian partner that it can choose. This proposal has been driven by the IAF, which wants to wean itself off a crippling dependency on the public sector Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL). While HAL has licence-produced a series of fighter aircraft for the IAF, including the high-end Sukhoi-30MKI, it has been afflicted with serious time and cost overruns and charged with sub-quality manufacture.

Amongst the companies invited to bid are Boeing of the US, Ilyushin of Russia, Antonov of Ukraine, Franco-German consortium EADS and Alenia Aeromacchi of Italy. The MoD has given bidders five months to choose and tie-up partnerships with an Indian Production Agency (IPA) and submit their “techno-commercial proposals.”

Air Chief Marshal NAK Browne, the IAF chief, has strongly backed this project, hoping that it will create a badly needed aerospace manufacture eco-system within the private sector.

At a lecture organized by CII in New Delhi on Sept 01, 2011, Browne told the private sector, “Once you start licensed production in partnership with a foreign partner, you will develop a basic aerospace eco-system: the R&D, the jigs, tools and expertise that would work for the entire country.”

The MoD said today that this deal “ensures inflow of Production Technology to the IPA in phases wherein the value addition in the manufacture by the IPA will gradually increase from 30% to 60%. The IPA will also obtain the Transfer of Technology for Maintenance (MToT) which will enable the IPA to provide life time product support and maintenance up to Depot level (sic).”

The Indian partner will be selected by the foreign vendor based on a set of criteria that are specified in the RfP. These exclude small and medium companies and those that have not been consistently profitable. It is learnt that Reliance Industries’ aerospace venture; Larsen & Toubro; and a Tata Group company.

HAL has staunchly opposed this arrangement, lobbying with the MoD to build the 56 Avro-replacement transport aircraft at HAL Kanpur, where the Dornier 228 aircraft is currently built.

Contacted for a comment, HAL has not responded.

The CEO of a reputed private sector defence company says that the number of aircraft to be built in India --- just 40 --- is too low to repay the investment that will be required to set up an assembly line and the flight infrastructure that would be needed.

However the MoD is looking at requirements beyond the IAF’s. Today it said, “The replacement for the Avro aircraft will have extensive requirements even in the rapidly expanding civil aviation sector, especially for flights between growing regional cities. Such combined requirements of IAF and the civil sector will provide large production orders.”

The IAF fleet of some thirty 748M Avro twin-engine aircraft, which is now over forty years old, was built under licence by HAL. The replacement aircraft now being built will have a payload of 6-8 tonnes (the Avro carried 5 tonnes); a cruising speed of 800 kmph (the Avro flew at 450 kmph); and a range of 2,500-2,700 km (the Avro's was 1,700 km).

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Indranil » 10 May 2013 23:22

Singha wrote:The wing again in cargo haulers will generally be thicker and feature high lift devices.

I am afraid the only thing common could be production tools, cockpit and maybe some parts here and there...if you want a really efficient plane...else if you want rugged aeroflot mode flying into some siberian outposts with sacks of food and passengers all together like a parachute regiment it will do. But no civil airline in india will buy it.

Singha sir,

1. I don't know hat you mean about the wings being thicker on cargo planes. Both civilian and cargo planes use the same concepts for the wings. If you have to lift the same amount of weight, and if you don't want STOL features, the design will be same. All civilian planes, have comparable high lift devices.

2. Sancho is speaking of a civilian-turboprop variant of the MTA (with lower power?). In that case you will need to have a high wing, T-tail configuration, so the wing and the Tail can certainly be reused.

3. Most of the turboprops civilian planes house their MLG in the fairing of the engine. But having a canoe for the landing gear does not make it less efficient (according to area ruling). Housing the MLG in the fuselage, allows you to have much smaller MLGs which saves weight. Also having the MLG on the wings means that the fuselage is always supported by the wing even when the plane is parked. But there are some advantages of having the MLG in the wing too. It gives better weight distribution over the entire wing. The ride on the runway is smoother with longer strokes for the shock absorbers.

4. But you are right, they would need to change the fuselage. Mostly elongate it, do away with the strengthened floors and ramps etc.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby NRao » 10 May 2013 23:39

Very, very slow day.

Here is a C-130 landing on an Aircraft Carrier:


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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby SaiK » 11 May 2013 09:14

India has kick-started another mega defence project by floating the global tender for the over Rs 13,000-crore acquisition of 56 transport aircraft to replace the ageing Avro fleet of IAF
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=20113

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The Ministry of Defence (MoD) today issued a request for proposal (RfP) to eight foreign aerospace vendors, inviting tenders for co-producing 56 medium transport aircraft to replace the Indian Air Force's (IAF's) ageing fleet of Hawker Siddeley 748M Avro aircraft. The deal could be worth about Rs 28,000 crore.
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=20115

We have gone MORE THAN DOUBLE withing 24 hours of first news. thaalia bhajao!

And who says kalmaadies and rajaas only exists in north block only. sorry, i can't keep blaming DDM alone. there has to be some responsibility in terms of numbers and consistency. wtf is wrong with us?

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby abhik » 11 May 2013 11:29

SaiK wrote:
India has kick-started another mega defence project by floating the global tender for the over Rs 13,000-crore acquisition of 56 transport aircraft to replace the ageing Avro fleet of IAF
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=20113

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The Ministry of Defence (MoD) today issued a request for proposal (RfP) to eight foreign aerospace vendors, inviting tenders for co-producing 56 medium transport aircraft to replace the Indian Air Force's (IAF's) ageing fleet of Hawker Siddeley 748M Avro aircraft. The deal could be worth about Rs 28,000 crore.
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=20115

We have gone MORE THAN DOUBLE withing 24 hours of first news. thaalia bhajao!

And who says kalmaadies and rajaas only exists in north block only. sorry, i can't keep blaming DDM alone. there has to be some responsibility in terms of numbers and consistency. wtf is wrong with us?

Of late the MoD (or at least the DDM) seems to projecting insane amounts for its acquisition programs (like the next line of conventional subs, MANPADS), and that too when there is almost no funding.
Only 56 aircraft for Rs 28,000 crore would mean sticker price of around $ 100M, which is about what a no frills C-130 costs. Also one would expect the HAL MTA to cost about the same. So why not focus the MTA and concentrate the airlift capability on this one aircraft. Any way HAL is projecting production of 40 which will be adequate to keep the plant busy only for about 6-7 years. I think we could really use at least 100+ MTAs.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Singha » 11 May 2013 11:53

more separate deals means more money in the cracks for people to slurp up. a single large deal beyond a point stops generating revenue for the corrupted.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Philip » 11 May 2013 12:27

They'd better hurry up if they want to "milk" the cash cow! The stability of the UPA edifice is exceedingly shaky at the moment.

Look at the Saras debacle.Our grandiose plans fo going ti alone can be seen in the context of starting programmes,spending money on them fro decades and producing tech demonstrators only.When there are so many new-gen narrow body passenger jets available from established manufacturers,why can't we select one of them in a contest for a JV? Bombardier,Embraer and Sukhoi-not to mention the Japanese too have narrow body aircraft and ambitions.

The AVRO/HS 748 replacement is an ideal dual role transport,both for the military and as a regional passenger aircraft,which is what the AVRO was ! This programme should be accelerated asap and fortunately it has been thrown open to the pvt. sector.HAL/DRDO has enough on its plate to fulfil,with the LCA,IJT running way behind time,while it is trying to waste further time and money with the HTT-40 (which the IAF does not want) and AMCA now shelved. What would be icing on the cake is that the AVRO replaceemnt is also tasked for specialist versions for MRP,EW,etc.,for the IN and CG. Since we are at the moment also looking at an Medium Maritime Patrol Aircraft,perhaps a common platform could be identified which thus brign in commonality of type and eqpt.,and cost-effectiveness all round.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby NRao » 11 May 2013 18:31

Feb, 2013 :: India's Modified Saras To Have Test Flight Soon

Apr, 2013 :: Saras set to fly again

I am very glad that India did not duck after the crash of PT2.

It has taken time, but it is worth every paisa.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Katare » 11 May 2013 23:31

28,000/13,000 crore may look a lot of money today but the deal would take years to signed a decade plus to complete by than value of money given our inflation rates will be only a fraction of what it is today. Also besides aircrafts the cost of setting up manufacturing, overhaul facilities, training, support infrastructure and initial spare parts would would also add significant amount to the total.

Even after everything else Rs 28000 crore sounds as absurd as Rs1,76,000 crore telecom losses from 3G auction.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Philip » 13 May 2013 03:53

One aircraft type which we do not have ,but would be of great value both for civvie and mil. uses is the twin-boom SU-80 STOL light transport.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Su-80

It can carry 30 pax,has powerful GE engines,and a "beaver" tail,for easy loading of cargo.The high twin booms gives excellent ground clearance while operating from small dirt strips,and excellent viewing for passengers on the tourist trail.A range of 1300km with 30 pax,TO run of less than 1000m and a speed of 430+ kmh,gives a very useful regional carrier.esp. for the more remote areas of the country.Our DO-228s can carry only 19 pax. and the Avro 40-58 pax.The SU-80 would fit in perfectly between.I do not known why the type has nptt been displayed at Aero-India shows,as there is a huge demand for turboprop civvie regional aircraft.The ATRs are much larger,seat 70+ and are far more expensive.The SU-80 would be ideal for the North-East,Delhi-Rajasthan-Punjab-Uttarkhand tourist trail,S.Indian peninsula and Himalayan support.The best part is the cost.Just $6m! The smaller DO-228 carrying 11 pax less,costs $7m and an ATR around $20-22m.

Here are just some of the variants in Russian service:

S-80PC (Su-80GP) – Combination Passenger and Freight carrier

S-80TC – light military troop transport

S-80A – Air Ambulance

S-80F – Fishery patrol

S-80PT – (patrol transport) for the Russian Border Guards, can be armed with machine guns, light auto-cannon, rockets, bombs, and surveillance devices.

S-80GE – Geological support

Su-80GP-100 – Transporter

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby NRao » 13 May 2013 04:28

.I do not known why the type has nptt been displayed at Aero-India shows,as there is a huge demand for turboprop civvie regional aircraft.


since 2001 only 8 have been built (per wiki)?

At this point in time I would not touch any Russian products - outside of the PAK-FA - for a variety of reasons.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby gnair » 13 May 2013 05:33

One aircraft type which we do not have ,but would be of great value both for civvie and mil. uses is the twin-boom SU-80 STOL light transport.

...remember vividly there was some interest in this platform a long time ago, when Deva Gowda was the PM and he was a guest at one of the Aero-India editions, and then it just faded away. If it's got western engines, then it's a perfect utility platform, any day better than the Saras LTA. But let's just call it a little un-glamorous in looks. And these days that counts too!
Speaking of the Saras, i don't know why they are even wasting time with it, with PT-6 turboprops, pusher style. Loading up that thing during commercial ops. is going to be tricky for weight and balance. Just get on with it and switch it to a turbo-fan, and use the thing for electronic intelligence or a variety of specific roles, heck even a made in India entry level Biz.Jet of the Cessna Citation 2 class would be more useful. In today's market conditions and Jet-A costs, yield will never ever break even on a commercial flight. Non-scheduled/Charter may have better luck!

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Philip » 13 May 2013 07:23

Yes,GN.I recently flew to Belgaum from BLR on an ATR.Though a small town.Belgaum has some excellent cos. some in defence manufacturing.At Aero-India,there were components made by a Belgaum firm.N.Karnataka is poorly connected by air.Kingfisher's demsie has seen many flights cancelled.Towns like Hubli,Davangere,Hampi can be connected by air.A 30 seater trubo-prop is ideal for connecting Tier 2/3 cities with the larger cities and metros.Our rail network has made scarce progress in the last two decades,both in terms of quality and quantity of trains and new lines to remote regions.This size of aircraft would also be most useful in hilly and Himalayan regions.

gnair
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby gnair » 13 May 2013 08:31

Poor connectivity is a pity isn't it. I wish there was a nice established directory of all these small to medium size companies across the country, that was contributing in some way or form to the aerospace sector. That would have been a great sourcing reference, even for future export opportunities. Taiwan is what it is today in aerospace and electronics, because they gathered a database of small mom and pop companies and then they worked in synergy over the years.
As a further ref. point to something similar to the Saras project, here is one from Embraer, which is a better refined design and yet didn't get off the board too well, so to speak.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embraer/FMA_CBA_123_Vector

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Austin » 25 May 2013 10:30

India Aims To Create New Company To Build 748 Replacement
India’s Ministry of Defense has issued a request for proposal (RFP) for the procurement of 56 transport aircraft to replace the air force’s aging fleet of around 30 Avro 748Ms. In a bid to launch an indigenous private defense manufacturing capability, this is the first time an RFP states that the Indian Production Agency (IPA) will be a private company. This leaves out Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL), which has until now held a monopoly in defense programs. The last date for submission of bids is October 8.

The RFP for the five-ton and above, 50-seater transport aircraft with a rear ramp has been released to eight OEMs–Airbus Military, Alenia, Antonov, Boeing, Embraer, Lockheed Martin, Rosboronexport and Saab. Airbus Military’s C-295 and Alenia Aermacchi’s C-27J are expected to be the finalists for the contract.

Sixteen flyaway aircraft have to be delivered within two years of contract signing, followed by another 16 in semi-knocked-down kit form starting in the fifth year. Delivery of the final 24 transports that will be manufactured in India is to be completed within 10 years.

The OEMs face multiple challenges. “It’s a nightmare,” said one of them to AIN. Identifying Indian partners for investment in infrastructure with the capability for manufacture is a major requirement. “With foreign direct investment limited to 26 percent for the OEM, the Indian partner will need to have a long-term view,” said an MOD official on condition of anonymity. The IPA will need to set up the assembly line, supply manpower, jigs and fixtures, paint and testing.

The contract stipulates indigenous value addition will be built into the contract from 30 percent, rising to 60 percent to 100 percent. India is most likely to be tapped for manpower and material that includes sheet metal, tires, electronics, manufacture of landing gear, avionics and software.

While skeptics allege manufacture of 24 aircraft is too small a number to justify the investment, one OEM told AIN: “There is no limit to the potential the project holds. A five- to ten-tonne transporter with a rear ramp is ideal for civil logistics flights to tier two and three cities in India, and also for export to neighboring countries.”

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby VinodTK » 03 Jun 2013 00:56

Globemaster to add to IAF’s airlift capabilities

NEW DELHI: India is all set to get genuine strategic airlift capabilities with the induction of the gigantic C-17 Globemaster-III aircraft, which will allow it to transport heavy armoured vehicles, howitzers and combat troops to distant battlefronts or hotspots at the double.

"The Hindon airbase will get the first C-17 aircraft from the US in mid-June, with another two following in July. The aircraft will be a huge strategic asset," IAF chief Air Chief Marshal N A K Browne said. All the 10 C-17 aircraft, contracted for $4.1 billion in mid-2011 under the largest defence deal inked with the US till now, will reach Hindon, on the outskirts of New Delhi, by June 2015.
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Philip
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Philip » 03 Jun 2013 09:37

The report also mentioned more C-130Js,15 Chinooks,20+ Apaches on order. A number of the C0-139Js will be earmarked for special forces use.Things seem to be moving on the decision front as the UPA-2's term comes to an end!

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Kartik » 11 Jun 2013 09:45

link

Airbus Military has launched an uprated C295W medium transport aircraft with winglets and more powerful engines with an eye on the Indian military and civil aviation market.

In official briefings at the recent launch ceremony here, company officials mentioned India more that a dozen times in view of the impending replacement of 56 HS-748 transporters of the Indian Air Force (IAF) while Airbus Military Chairman and CEO Domingo Urena-Raso told India Strategic (www.indiastrategic.in) that he expected the number of selected aircraft in this category to be more than 100.

According to India Strategic's own estimates though, the figure could touch or exceed 200, keeping in mind the growing requirements of the armed forces, paramilitary organizations like the Border Security Force (BSF) and Central Reserve Police Force (CRPF), civil operations in India's mountainous Himalayan states and even the secretive Aviation Research Centre (ARC) of India's external intelligence agency, Research and Analysis Wing (RAW).

The aircraft is to be produced in the private sector, and once the assembly/ production line is set up in the country, new and follow-on orders are easier to get.

Urena-Raso, who can be described as a very pleasant and confident person based on the interaction he had with visiting journalists and this writer, said Airbus Military was in touch with some Indian companies for the aircraft's production in India as per the IAF's recently-issued Request for Proposals (RfP) - or tender - but gave no details. He pointed out though that a production facility is only about four to five percent of the costing in an aircraft's manufacturing project.

The first C295W - W denoting winglets - was displayed before a group of visiting journalists from around the globe.

Rafael Tentor, senior vice president, said that the 90 kg of winglets and modifications added to the existing C295 aircraft would enable it to operate in India's hot as well as high Himalayan airfields.

The engines have been given new settings.

Said Tentor: "The aircraft uses the same Pratt & Whitney (Canada) PW127 turboprops engines which power all versions of the C295. The increased power is available from implementing new procedures recently certified by Canada and Spain, permitting operation in the climb and cruise phases at higher power settings at the discretion of the operator."

"When implemented at higher altitudes and hot temperatures, these procedures improve operation over very high terrain such as the Andes (in South America) or the Himalaya mountains with only a minor influence on maintenance costs. The winglets were demonstrated in flight-trials which showed positive results for a weight penalty of only around 90 kg," Tentor added.


The first production C295W will be available from end-2014. The aircraft can carry troops, equipment, electronic warfare systems or an Airborne Early Warning (AEW) antenna.

Tentor said that over the 2003-12 period, Airbus Military has commanded a 51 percent share of the light and medium aircraft (C235/C295) market with 157 (of the global total of 306) aircraft purchased by about a dozen countries.

Both Urena-Raso and Tentor pointed out that defence budgets in the US and Europe were shrinking and that global arms and aviation firms were increasingly looking to Middle East and Asia, particularly India, which has to replace most of its outdated Soviet-vintage equipment.

As for India, the IAF's RfP has been sent to eight contenders from Europe, the US and Russia. As per the tender, which has to be submitted by October, the HS-748 replacement aircraft has to be made in India in collaboration with an Indian partner with technology transfer and production arrangements. The global vendors are reportedly in final stages of finalizing their tie-ups.

...



pictures of the recently unveiled C-295W with the metallic winglets are on this page

link

Airbus Military has detailed a schedule to bring a winglet-equipped enhancement of its C295 medium transport into operational use from the fourth quarter of 2014.

Dubbed the C295W, the future build standard will incorporate a strengthened wing to allow the installation of the metallic winglets, with the entire modification package to add 90kg (198lb) to the transport's weight, the company says.

Combined with an increase in available power from the aircraft's Pratt & Whitney Canada PW127 engines, the winglets will boost payload, climb, altitude and cruise performance, especially when operating in hot environmental conditions and from high airfields.

Flight testing already performed using winglets as part of risk-reduction work for a proposed airborne early warning and control system variant of the C295 also demonstrated an average 4% reduction in fuel consumption,
says Gustavo Garcia Miranda, Airbus Military's head of market development. The proposed surveillance version of the aircraft would have a maximum altitude of 26,000ft (7,930m) and an almost 9h endurance with the winglets installed, he adds.

Commercial activities linked to the C295W will be launched before the end of May 2013, following the completion of an analysis of handling qualities linked to a preliminary design. A design freeze is expected during September, and certification from Spain's INTA airworthiness authority is being targeted for the second quarter of 2014.

Airbus Military displayed a winglet-equipped C295W demonstrator at its San Pablo final assembly site in Seville, Spain on 29 May. The airframe modification will also be available as a retrofit option for existing operators, the company says.


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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Kartik » 11 Jun 2013 09:49

and Airbus Military is also developing a C-295 AEW version and also studying a C-295W AEW version

Airbus Military lifts veil on C295 AEW study

Airbus Military is to perform a three-month test campaign aimed at demonstrating the C-295 transport’s suitability as an airborne early warning aircraft, the company has revealed.

A C-295 prototype had a dummy rotodome installed above its fuselage at Airbus Military’s San Pablo final assembly site near Seville, Spain, on 17 May. Roughly 6m (19.7ft) in diameter, this will be assessed during flight tests to commence during June, said Miguel-Angel Morell Fuentes, head of engineering.

“We want to see the aerodynamic effects of carrying the rotodome and identify any requirements for fuselage and cooling power changes,” he said. Self-funded study work on the concept started in the second half of 2010, with the rotodome design having been selected due to its ability to provide 360° surveillance coverage.

Windtunnel testing has already been conducted at DNW in the Netherlands using a 1/12th-scale model in two configurations: with and without winglets also installed (below). These could be added later in the flight test programme. Earlier computational fluid dynamics work was intended to find the optimal position and angle for the rotodome to minimise its effect on the transport’s vertical fin.

“We want to see the aerodynamic effects of carrying the rotodome and identify any requirements for fuselage and cooling power changes,” he said. Self-funded study work on the concept started in the second half of 2010, with the rotodome design having been selected due to its ability to provide 360° surveillance coverage.

Windtunnel testing has already been conducted at DNW in the Netherlands using a 1/12th-scale model in two configurations: with and without winglets also installed (below). These could be added later in the flight test programme. Earlier computational fluid dynamics work was intended to find the optimal position and angle for the rotodome to minimise its effect on the transport’s vertical fin.

If advanced, the AEW programme could deliver an aircraft with between four and six onboard operator consoles and an unrefuelled mission endurance of 7-8h, according to the company’s early estimates. However, the engineering work so far has not considered possible candidate radar systems for the C-295.

Assessment of the rotodome design could also have utility for any future AEW adaptation of the Airbus A319 or A320, said Airbus Military.
(something that may be of interest to India as a potential platform for the AWACS-India project)

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Kartik » 11 Jun 2013 09:58

Perhaps Airbus Military could also sweeten the deal by offering a development partnership for their future military transport to the private sector company that they partner with - if they win the HS-748 replacement deal.

Airbus Military mulls future medium transport offering

Speaking in Seville on 29 May, Ureña-Raso said the company's next development task could be to create an offering to fit below the size of the C-130 Hercules. Possible payload capacities for such a product could be in the 9t area already occupied by the current C295, or in the "16-18t" sector, he said. The latter would pit any such transport in the same broad category as Embraer's turbofan-powered KC-390 transport and tanker, which the Brazilian company says will be able to lift between 16 and 23t, depending on mission type. Embraer's developmental product should be ready for service introduction with the Brazilian air force during 2016.

Despite his hints at Airbus Military's possible future development strategy, Ureña-Raso notes that no such activity will be launched in the short-term, while final assembly of the A400M continues to ramp up and the company also pursues a "second wave" of orders for its Airbus A330-based multi-role tanker transport, and further orders for its C295 product line.


anyway this is out in the future, so they could say that the private sector company that they partner with, could develop adequate experience to take on design and fabrication of large assemblies and components for their future medium transport. That would assure the India private sector company of further returns on its investment and a potential future product that it could assemble in India and offer at competitive prices to export markets. Would give Airbus Military a potential lower cost assembly site than its European assembly sites.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Singha » 11 Jun 2013 10:17

A320neo etc would have a loaded endurance of around 6 hrs if my memory of 737-800/900 serves me right and its equivalent. that would put a huge stress on limited tanker resources for the typical 12-18 hr awacs mission. so while the plane itself might be good and capable of handling and powering our radar and its crew , its profile is somewhat lacking.

the A330 is better for the job I think as it has 2 engines, ETOPS certifications , huge range and can provide luxurious rest areas , eating, planning rooms for the airborne staff of around 20-25 incl trainees. it would be able to sortie from a really rear base like Hyd or Blr, fly to positions over north and east india and recover back on its own steam or go a couple of refueling cycles by virtue of sleeping areas/seating and room for additional crew to be in comfort.

capex will be slightly more expensive, but thats for plane only...rest of kit will be same.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby srai » 11 Jun 2013 11:07

The IAF is going to need around 100-150 light-medium (>5t) transports to replace both HS-748 and some of the An-32s. MTA will replace the remaining An-32s. The IN could get 12-24 of these for its Medium MPA requirement. The IA might also get 25 of these (5 for each command) along with potential orders from BSF, RAW, and private cargo companies.


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