Transport Aircraft for IAF

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Indranil
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by Indranil »

I will reengine the HS748 and convert them to tankers.
abhik
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by abhik »

What is the useful fuel load that a C-295 actually transfer? I doubt it can refuel more than one MKI per sortie (it actually weights less than an MKI) which sounds quite pathetic. Better to go for a purpose built aircraft like A330 MRTT that has 65t useful payload.
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by Manish_P »

^ Approx 6000 Kg as per the brochure

It need not be restricted to refuel only Su30 MKIs

Yes, it is no alternative to a dedicated tanker.
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by Avinandan »

Indranil wrote:I will reengine the HS748 and convert them to tankers.
Indranil Saar, HS748 will have similar payload as C295.
Shouldn't HAL or IAF assist GTRE by providing couple of planes for Kaveri testing or is it because Kaveri can't be retrofitted to a propeller based plane ?
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by nachiket »

Does the C-295 tanker variant have extra fuel tanks in the cargo hold or something? Otherwise, looking at its regular fuel capacity, I don't see how it can be useful.
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by Cybaru »

Indranil wrote:I will reengine the HS748 and convert them to tankers.
That would be pretty awesome for refueling over extended Indian territory. You could even give two to every Squadron. One could effectively fuel one - two aircraft at a time, which should be enough.

Between this, C295 pallet system (if added) & the current 6 Il-78, we probably don't need more refuelers.
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by brar_w »

I always wondered why the IAF never mixed in KC-130J's with the C-130J order. You can take the former and use it for tanking and convert it to the latter by removing the external tanks and the internal fuel tank.
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by Kartik »

abhik wrote:What is the useful fuel load that a C-295 actually transfer? I doubt it can refuel more than one MKI per sortie (it actually weights less than an MKI) which sounds quite pathetic. Better to go for a purpose built aircraft like A330 MRTT that has 65t useful payload.
The C-295, if built and acquired in the numbers that are being talked about (56 odd) will be more than what the IAF needs for basic transport duties given the 11 C-17s and 12 C-130Js plus the Il-76s. A secondary role of tanker makes a lot of sense as a force multiplier, with fuel tanks that can be easily removed when not performing the role of a tanker. It is an ADDITIONAL role, you're not buying C-295s purely for that role, but rather configuring a small portion of your fleet to double as tankers.

It's obvious that it's better to have purpose built tankers, like the B-767 MRTT, A-330 MRTT or KC-46A, but that entire tender is stuck in some quagmire and showing no signs of emerging. At least this way the IAF will have airframes that can perform tanker duties when required rather than sit and wait another decade for another MRTT tender to be started and then cancelled.
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by Kartik »

brar_w wrote:I always wondered why the IAF never mixed in KC-130J's with the C-130J order. You can take the former and use it for tanking and convert it to the latter by removing the external tanks and the internal fuel tank.
I never understood it either. Poor planning is my guess.
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by Rishirishi »

With the old Hawker Siddeley 748 and AN-32 getting old, I am sure the IAF needs to find replacements for the 160+ AC. In addition civilian demand will probably increase. What about teaming up with SAAB to produce the Saab2000 ? in India? Perhaps some parts can be replaced with carbon to make it even more fuel efficient. They are fast, reliable and fuel efficient.
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by Philip »

For heavlifters,the new upgraded IL-76s with all- round extra performance,smaller crew,etc., is a very cost effective acquisition,costing 1/3 to 1/4 that of a new C-17,not in production too. The legacy Uzbek assembled ones have given us decades of excellent service and are all being upgraded to almost the new 476 std. A new med. lifter is required and the dust is being shaken off another MTA programme required to replace by the end of the decade the 100+ AN-32s which were built in the UKR.The UKR's defence industry has taken a beating after its civil war and spat with Russia, who are now rapidly building plants at home to replace Sov. era weapon systems dependent upon other ex- Sov. republic nations for components like engines,etc. Great names like Antonov will find the going tough in the future without orders from Ru and its CIS allies unless their differences are quickly settled.

At the light transport level, the C-295 is a good step forward but orders must be substantial to keep local) manufacturing costs low and establish the suppport chain.We've been making the DO-228 for decades.Surely we can build upon that experience and squeeze out an improved larger version?
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by Manish_Sharma »

^Il 76/476 spend most time in maintenance , very very very low availability
chola
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by chola »

We need to get on with the C-295. It's almost inevitable we'll be buying a good number for our medium transport needs.

But the potential and the versatility of the thing is really amazing:

C-295 MPA/Persuader
Maritime patrol/anti-submarine warfare version. Provision for six hardpoints.

C-295 AEW&C
Prototype airborne early warning and control version with EL/W-2090 360 degree radar dome. The AESA radar was developed by Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI) and has an integrated IFF (Identification friend or foe) system.

C-295 Firefighter
Dedicated aerial firefighting aircraft.

CC-295 SAR
Dedicated search and rescue aircraft for the Royal Canadian Air Force.

C-295 SIGINT
Dedicated signals intelligence version.

AC-295 Gunship
Gunship version developed by Airbus Defence and Space, based on the AC-235 Light Gunship configuration.

KC-295
Dedicated tanker aircraft.
The big one, IMHO, is the flying chapati.
Image

If we can get licensed MII production of this beauty, we would have a platform for so many critical force multipliers.
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by Philip »

We don't have any 476s.We have the A-50 version for the AWACS though.They're the new avatar.Yes,I would thinkcthat legacy IL-76s 3 decades on would require more extensive support.But the bird is so reliable and capable that the IAF is upgrading the entire fleet.

The need for an MTA is gaining strength despite AN-32 upgrades. The IAF must wisely choose a JV partner forthe same sooner rather than later.
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by Thakur_B »

C295 will cover Avro replacement well, but the Sutlej need replacing too. Sooner or later we will have to bite between Kawasaki C2, Emb C390 and C130.
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by souravB »

I am going to ask a very obvious question which will sound very stupid.
If anybody can help me understand why IAF doesn't outsource logistics? not the whole thing but the bread and butter stuff and progressively, with clearly formulated SOPs, some critical stuff too. IAF can then maintain it's transport fleet with less variants and less numbers even. It does keep focus of IAF on its teeth, rather its tail.
Thanks.
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by Kartik »

Few more details on the wet contact trials of the C-295 tanker. If the C-295 is acquired and built by Tata, this is a must-have feature on at least a dozen of them. They don't need to be dedicated tankers mind you, so there is inherent flexibility to taken on transport roles when required.

Wet contacts fuel C-295 tanker trial
Airbus Defence & Space has furthered its flight-test activities on the C295 by demonstrating the medium transport’s ability to transfer fuel during an initial series of “wet” contacts.

Performed in January from the manufacturer’s final assembly site in Seville, Spain, the air-to-air refuelling (AAR) flights involved an Airbus test aircraft and a Spanish air force C295 receiver.

“In total, the aircraft fitted with the removable AAR kit performed five wet contacts, transferring 1.5t of fuel,” Airbus says. The activity was conducted in daylight conditions across a flight envelope of 100-130kt (185-240kt), it adds.

Once adapted for the tanker role, the C295 deploys a 30m (100ft)-long refuelling hose from its closed cargo ramp, with operations supported via the use of a remote vision system.

“The flight test campaign also included night flight operations and the successful proximity test in pre-contact position with a Spanish air force [Boeing] F-18 fighter at a flight speed of 210kt,” says Airbus.
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by rajsunder »

chola wrote:The Japanese are actively looking for overseas customer of their well-regarded Kawasaki C2 transport.

https://www.defensenews.com/digital-sho ... ort-fleet/

Image

I am surprised that India had not been mentioned as a possible buyer/partner.
Japanese arms tend to be on the costlier side. I bet this plane would be at least 150% the cost of an equivalent western cargo plane.
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by Cybaru »

I am still stuck with Indranil's idea of HS748 conversion for both MPA and refuelers. Most fighters won't need more than 4 tons unless they are rambha - so for 2/3rd of the fleet - they should pan out and be able to fuel two fighters at a time.

most drogue type refueling activity takes a lot of time - so for example, refueling a whole package of 6 m2ks with one il-78/a330 will take for ever. Best to have smaller platforms that can fuel two at a time and three of those can refuel the whole strike package at the same time of 30-45 mins.

I am still deeply against a dedicated refueler like A330... Too few, too expensive, too long...
chola
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by chola »

rajsunder wrote:
chola wrote:The Japanese are actively looking for overseas customer of their well-regarded Kawasaki C2 transport.

https://www.defensenews.com/digital-sho ... ort-fleet/

Image

I am surprised that India had not been mentioned as a possible buyer/partner.
Japanese arms tend to be on the costlier side. I bet this plane would be at least 150% the cost of an equivalent western cargo plane.
Yes, most likely. But them going after the New Zealanders but not us as potential partners/customers surprised me. Not that I really care. Their stuff are even more expensive than the goras as you noted. But it kind of tells me where we are in their geo-strategic view.
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by Khalsa »

chola wrote:
rajsunder wrote: Japanese arms tend to be on the costlier side. I bet this plane would be at least 150% the cost of an equivalent western cargo plane.
Yes, most likely. But them going after the New Zealanders but not us as potential partners/customers surprised me. Not that I really care. Their stuff are even more expensive than the goras as you noted. But it kind of tells me where we are in their geo-strategic view.
First of all
the NZ Govt put aside a Billion Plus for the replacements of 5 X C-130s. As expected every man and his dog pitched their aircraft. The brazilians , Japs and Europeans. The ones making the least amount of noise were the Americans.

The winner is the stretched version of the Herc. 5 X C-130s have been ordered.

The Japs did this (if it bothers you) because the money is set aside, no ToT involved. Its a simple no nonsense buy that is actually more faster than how Singapore buys a/c. With mera desh mahan. Grandsons are born to the managers who first float the tender to buy a Mirage 2K replacements.

Sorry I am a bit negative these days. This def expo 2020 has done my head in.
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by chola »

^^^ Thanks for the explanation, Khalsa ji. No need to apologize for any negativity. I haven't been a happy camper myself lately (with these billions being set aside for Kamovs and Apaches while our own helos get little orders.)
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/129 ... 70401?s=20 ---> Indian Air Force C-17s are flying to Leh more than ever before amidst the standoff in eastern Ladakh. Here's an undated video of how comfortable IAF Skylords squadron C-17s are operating up in the Himalayas -- this takeoff from 11,562 feet.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/129 ... 39200?s=20 ---> A great photo that’s been doing the rounds recently of a T-72 rolling into a Skylords Squadron's C-17. Not clear if it’s from the current standoff though. Could be older.

Image
Manish_P
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by Manish_P »

Interesting photo

Most videos i have seen of M1 Abrams (and Howitzers) in C17 show the main gun pointing rearwards..
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by VKumar »

Must seriously start procuring or producing sea planes for SAR as well as transportation. At least some with range to service IOR.
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by tsarkar »

Done in the 80's in Sri Lanka and Ladakh.

The gun was aligned rearwards then.

I am hoping to see Arjun being transported to Ladakh on the C-17.

Image
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by Manish_P »

Right sir. Which is why I wondered about the front facing gun in the C17. Is the height of the C17 cargo hold much higher as compared to the IL76? It sure looks wider
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by Rakesh »

A beautiful twitter thread for serial number watchers! :) Click and enjoy.

https://twitter.com/Maverick_bharat/sta ... 65477?s=20 ---> All 11 C-17 Globemasters of the Indian Air Force.
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/KUNALBI25146617/sta ... 45409?s=20 ---> Cockpit of the C-17 Globemaster of the IAF.

Image
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/strategic_front/sta ... 06177?s=20 ---> The IAF selected the Airbus C-295 to replace the HS748. The $2 billion deal for 56 C-295 has cleared the cost negotiation stage, CCS is yet to approve the acquisition. Airbus is working with DRDO for AEW&CS (Pic 1) and Multi Mission Maritime Aircraft (MMMA) for the Coast Guard (Pic 2).

Image

Image
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by Rishi_Tri »

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/strategic_front/sta ... 06177?s=20 ---> The IAF selected the Airbus C-295 to replace the HS748. The $2 billion deal for 56 C-295 has cleared the cost negotiation stage, CCS is yet to approve the acquisition. Airbus is working with DRDO for AEW&CS (Pic 1) and Multi Mission Maritime Aircraft (MMMA) for the Coast Guard (Pic 2).
This is one deal that should not happen. Never happen.

India gets Indonesian derivative of a Spanish Aircraft. Loses the opportunity to develop relatively simple indigenous transport capability. Is dependent on the source countries for eventual upkeep, life extension, and redesign if needed. Money down the drain.

Every nation with some industrial capability has its own simple transporter, let alone the big ones.

Let alone Avro, An 32 replacement planning should have started at least two decades ago. If not two decades ago, in 2014.

This acquisition if it goes through shall be a slap on Make in India and Atma Nirbhar Bharat!
Last edited by Rakesh on 02 Dec 2020 09:12, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: Please do not re-quote pictures when replying. Post Edited.
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by V_Raman »

all these deals will be in stasis till brazilian delegation visits India with their president attending the parade. if india goes on to take a stake in embraer - then it will be all embraer.
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by srin »

India considers French offer of six Airbus multi-role mid-air refuellers
According to South Block sources, while IAF wanted to get an Airbus 330 MRTT on wet lease from a British company, the French proposal involves selling 5–7-year-old six aircraft for the air force with a certification of another 30 years of platform life at a much-reduced rate. IAF has been eager to acquire MRTT since the past decade with the previous RFP expiring without any results.
The French proposal is a win-win for IAF as the international market for aerial platforms is down due to Covid-19 pandemic.
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/135 ... 12736?s=20 ---> The IAF’s $2.5 billion deal with Airbus for 56 C295 transports (Avro replacement) is the other big deal expected to be signed this year. A model of a C295 (powered by @prattandwhitney PW127 engines) seen here on display at the Tata stall at #AeroIndia2021.

Image

Image
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/ReviewVayu/status/1 ... 02017?s=20 --->

Very interesting display at HAL...the HS-748 Avro upgrade with a new cockpit, avionics, etc!!!

The proposal has been sent to the IAF to upgrade a sizeable number of Avro's.

Second phase to get new engines with Pratt & Whitney as a front runner.

Image

Image
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 67552?s=20 ---> Ukraine pitches AN-178 as replacement for IAF An-32 fleet.
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by Mollick.R »

Not sure about if this news belongs to this thread or not...... still though...........

In a first, Tata to build military aircraft in India as it acquires IP rights
By Manu Pubby, ET Bureau Last Updated: Feb 01, 2021, 09:47 AM IST

In a first for the industry, the Tata Group will develop and manufacture a military aircraft in India, having acquired intellectual property rights for a German-origin platform. The plan, ET has reliably learnt, is to integrate indigenous sensors and payloads to convert it into an intelligence gathering asset. :D :D :D

The high-altitude, twin-engine aircraft, capable of playing multiple roles from signal intelligence to cross-border surveillance, is currently in the final stages of testing in Germany. It is likely to arrive in India in the next three months for further integration.
Tata Advanced Systems (TASL) will showcase the capabilities of the aircraft at the AeroIndia in Bengaluru next week. Though the company has not shared details of the design, the aircraft is likely to be based on the Grob G 180 SPn – a German-made jet that never reached serial production due to financial strains

TASL is yet to get any firm orders for the aircraft in India, but top executives say the investment has been done keeping in mind future requirements of the armed forces. A manufacturing plant will be set up for serial production in the future, they added.

The company sources said the aircraft it is developing is designed for flying at 41,000 feet altitude with a maximum altitude of 45,000 feet and can be used for intelligence gathering, surveillance and reconnaissance (ISR) purposes. It is designed to land on grass and gravel. The low-wing, twin-engine composite aircraft is expected to have a range of 1800 nautical miles and 6-7 hours endurance with a payload capacity in excess of 1,000 kg.

“We are now focusing on modifying the aircraft to fit special payloads so that it can undertake a demonstration of surveillance capabilities. For a country like India, with multiple mountain ranges spread across the country, including on international borders, this capacity is extremely vital. India has been dependent on foreign suppliers to meet this need,” said Sukaran Singh, MD of TASL.

He added that acquiring such technology will enable India to modify and fit any payloads it wants within the country, reducing dependence on foreign suppliers. “With TASL bringing this aircraft technology to the table, India will have a cutting edge air-borne surveillance platform, with control over the software, customisation as well as maintenance, based within the country,” he said.

The need for effective border surveillance has been a focus after recent tensions with China in Ladakh.


https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 620506.cms
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by Mollick.R »

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by Kakkaji »

Behind the paywall but:

Rs 15,000 crore Tata-Airbus deal for military transport aircraft at CCS door
BENGALURU: With contract for the light combat aircraft signed–the largest military order placed domestically--focus has shifted to a mega deal which, if approved by the PM-led cabinet committee on security (CCS), will see military transport aircraft being manufactured in India.

High on the priority list of Indian Air Force is finalisation of an estimated Rs 15,000-crore contract to manufacture the C 295 transport aircraft in India by a Tata-Airbus combine, which would make it the first time a military plane of such size is built domestically.
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