Transport Aircraft for IAF

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Aditya_V
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by Aditya_V »

How accurate is that article, seems BS, how can after 30 years IAF suddenly decide one fine day AN-32 is unfit. Mainstream media seems to be putting rubish which was shown on social media
Paul
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by Paul »

It could be true though.

Someone I know was flying to A&N on an an32 which suddenly developed engine trouble in 90s. They had to dump the entire load into BOB including live goats, atta etc. to make it back to chennai.

This incident seems to tally with IAF recommendation.
Pratyush
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by Pratyush »

Aditya_V wrote:How accurate is that article, seems BS, how can after 30 years IAF suddenly decide one fine day AN-32 is unfit. Mainstream media seems to be putting rubish which was shown on social media

It is possible for IAF to change its assessment, as the are owner of the aircraft and are aware of the risks involved in operating this design after all this time. Moreover the age of the aircraft fleet will also be a deciding factor.
adityadange
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by adityadange »

why not fly at lower altitude?
JTull
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by JTull »

adityadange wrote:why not fly at lower altitude?
Efficiency reduces, which means lower range - a critical issue over sea.
rohitvats
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by rohitvats »

I cannot comment on the veracity or otherwise of the HP report above, but do remember that AN-32, like T-72, is one of those inductions which happened solely because USSR was giving them to us literally free!

IIRC, it is said that each AN-32 costed same as a Maruti-800 car when it first came out. When it was trialed for Para-Drop, it was found unsuitable at the entire stick got dispersed over a large area. Even the Red Army did not recommend An-32 for static line para drop.
Aditya_V
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by Aditya_V »

I agree AN-32 is less than ideal, but why is IAF talking of upgrading them or flying them all these years. The aircraft cannot be grounded one fine day, without replacements in arriving in numbers, right?
abhik
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by abhik »

What is the safety record of the AN-32 (compared to its peers)?
rohitvats
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by rohitvats »

Aditya_V wrote:I agree AN-32 is less than ideal, but why is IAF talking of upgrading them or flying them all these years. The aircraft cannot be grounded one fine day, without replacements in arriving in numbers, right?
Frankly, we don't know what IAF said. All you've a single report which quotes 'something' from the IAF investigation. W/O knowing the full context of the report, we would be running around circles.
Indranil
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by Indranil »

The An-32 just underwent a midlife upgrade! There are multiple civilian planes based on it. In flight de-icing is not rocket science anymore. The Saudis just ordered a whole bunch of An-132 (modernized An-32). May be a ready-made solution is already available*. We may need to modify the plane to add sufficient deicing capability. But junking a workhorse like the An-32 without the replacement line (Tata-Airbus) being in place does not make much sense.

*The Chinese may also have a solution with their civilian MA-60/MA-600/MA-700 versions.
Pratyush
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by Pratyush »

I don't think that the IAF is planning to junk the 32. The are saying that they will not moov people on the plane. That reduces the usability of the plane.
Indranil
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by Indranil »

The question remains if IAF is not going to use the An-32s to move people, then what will it use: 228s are too small, Avros are old, C-130s and C-17s are too few!

Meanwhile, the Tata/Airbus collaboration to manufacture C-295s has gone nowhere. HAL chairman says that he can manufacture a 50/70 seater in 6-7 years. God knows how. I hope that they don't reinvent the wheel and go with something that is almost there and make it their own. For example, the Jetstream 61/71 is an offshoot of the Avros. It is a refined design which will be more or less reliable, but has no place in ATR. It is state-of-art, circa 2001. Take it, make it state-of-art circa 2020, aka change the avionics. It will do just fine. Let the young inexperienced designers cut teeth on something like this first. I don't know if HAL can go with the Antonovs with them in bed with the Saudis and the Chinese.
NRao
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by NRao »

Pratyush wrote:I don't think that the IAF is planning to junk the 32. The are saying that they will not moov people on the plane. That reduces the usability of the plane.
And that too, move people across the sea/ocean, I thought.
Neshant
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by Neshant »

I've lost track. Is there any indigenous transport aircraft project going on now that India has exited the MTA project with Russia.

Maybe that should be a starting point of discussion with Boeing/Lockheed over cooperation in aircraft development in India.

Start with the design of a transport aircraft and FADEC engine development for the military/cargo as opposed to fighter aircraft.

Something that can lift a payload of 20 to 25 tons over a medium distance.
Philip
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by Philip »

The IAF's procurement policy appears to be the eorst of the three services.We ard now buying "HanSolo",the very last C-17 available at what will be a collector's item price.Years ago
I predicted that ee would be in the soup post C-17 demise.Now only the IL-476 fits the bill for the future yhough smaller.
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by Rakesh »

Rakesh
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by Rakesh »

AN-32 courier service for Kargil from Jan 10
http://www.ndtv.com/jammu-news/an-32-co ... 10-1642942
NRao
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by NRao »

IAF to procure another Boeing C-17 transport aircraft
The Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) chaired by Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar on Friday approved the purchase of one more Boeing C-17 Globemaster heavy-lift transport aircraft, and also reviewed the ongoing projects of the services and the DRDO, sources said.

The Indian Air Force currently operates 10 C-17s, which it began inducting in 2013.
Aditya G
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by Aditya G »

Parrikar i believe has exercised all options clauses from UPA purchases. This is the right approach as you get good price for options instead of new tenders.
Bheeshma
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by Bheeshma »

Instead of buying 1 apiece why not 2 more and make 2 squadrons of 6 each? Complemented by 12-18 IL-76's (upgraded if possible) its a pretty decent heavy lift capability for IAF.
More importantly isn't C-17 production line closed? So second hand would be the only option. In that case why only 1?
NRao
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by NRao »

Not too sure. But, one because only one was left (white tail). They had a requirement for more.
Aditya G
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by Aditya G »

They have picked up whatever was left on the C-17's unsold inventory. For a plane that was produced in excess numbers C-17 has surely done well to have customers scrambling for it.
Bheeshma
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by Bheeshma »

Even puny tinpots like qatar and kuwait will have 8 C-17's. Very bad planning from GoI and IAF in that regard. They may have to do with 11 C-17 and same number of IL-76's.
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by Rakesh »

When the deal for the C-17s was signed in June 2011, there was an option for six more. As always, A K Antony and his cronies at the MoD dilly dallied and when production ended in 2015, that was the end of that. Boeing reportedly reminded the Indian Govt about the production deadline, but nothing came out of it. So Bheeshma, we could have had two squadrons of eight plans each...but such is the malaise of our babus and politicians.
Cybaru
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by Cybaru »

There is a bone yard with 2-3 squadrons of C17 lying around. Time to pick up 8 surplus with zeroed out frames.
Viv S
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by Viv S »

The US has 14 C-17s held with the reserves. Another 16 aircraft are set to join them, where they'll undergo very sparse usage mainly to keep the aircraft airworthy.

Two C-17 squadrons to shut down - Dec 22, 2014
The Air Force will inactivate two C-17 squadrons over the next two years in a budget-saving move, according to new details released by Air Mobility Command Monday.

Sixteen C-17 Globemasters — eight from the 17th Airlift Squadron at Joint Base Charleston, South Carolina, and eight from the 10th Airlift Squadron at Joint Base Lewis-McChord, Washington — will transition from primary inventory to backup inventory, saving the Air Force about $110 million a year, an AMC news release said. That means the planes will no longer receive funding for personnel and flying hours but will continue to get necessary resources to support weapon system sustainment.

Eventually, however, the Air Force plans to transfer the aircraft to the reserve component.

"In this fiscally constrained environment, we have to balance readiness, capability and capacity," Major Gen. Michael Stough, director of AMC strategic plans, requirements and programs, said in the release.

"To best preserve this capability, the intent is to fund these aircraft back into primary mission aircraft inventory in future years, and transfer them to the Reserve Component — we're working with our Air National Guard partners to do that, perhaps even as early as" fiscal 2016, Stough said. "We rely on our total force partners to meet our global requirements; we couldn't do the mission without them. We'll continue to leverage the unique strengths of the active and Reserve components to meet current and future requirements with available resources."

The inactivations were first announced in March as part of budget submissions, but Monday's release provides the most details so far.

The C-17 squadron at Charleston will make the transition in fiscal 2015, followed by the McChord C-17 squadron in fiscal 2016.

The C-17, which made its debut in 1991, is considered the Air Force's workhorse in providing troop and cargo transport — often in war zones and areas affected by natural disasters and humanitarian crises. This summer, C-17s ferried food and supplies to Yazidis stranded on Mount Sinjar.

As of this May, the Air Force had 187 C-17s in its active-duty inventory, 14 in the Air Force Reserve and 12 in the Air National Guard.
Viv S
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by Viv S »

Trouble is the service brass & MoD mandarins appear to be living in silos. They have little to no interest in deviating from convention.

As a consequence we can spend $45 mil on each Mirage MLU and contemplate buying brand new F-16s, but are dead-silent on the possibility of acquiring second-hand Mirages from other operators.
Karthik S
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by Karthik S »

We need 5 more C 17s based on initial requirements, if we can get those planes in reserve, it will be good enough. BTW a country like Qatar with 2.3 Lakh citizens needs 8 C 17s? What will they transport and to where?
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by Cybaru »

One of the qatari C17 is flying around in qatar airways colors. But yeah, they could make a request for 5-8 additional used frames under fms and close this transport saga once for all.
Paul
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by Paul »

They need C17s to transport Limos/SUVs when the Sheikhs come to Pakistan to Hunt Houbaras. I'm serious.
Austin
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by Austin »

India To Buy Six More C295s for Coast Guard

http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/ ... oast-guard
Cain Marko
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by Cain Marko »

^ very good news Austin, and interesting to boot:
The Airus-Tata partnership will deliver the C295s for the Coast Guard in “raw” condition to the Defence Research Development Organisation (DRDO), which will integrate an indigenous mission system. “DRDO could likely use a surface-scanning radar that could be coupled with transponders on boats, an imperative for the Coast Guard,” said Bharat Malkani, managing director of Max Aerospace & Aviation Ltd. The mission system could be a derivative of the multisensor airborne early warning and control (AEW&C) system developed by Center for Airborne System (CABS) with DRDO for the Embraer 145 platform, a defense official told AIN. “The C-295 is not a complicated aircraft. It is easy for DRDO to integrate the sensor in the nose with OEM input. It is not complicated structural work, and can be certified for airworthiness by the Indian body, CEMILAC,” said the official.

The Airbus Defence and Space C295 maritime patrol aircraft comprises a range of sensors and components including search radar, electro-optic/infrared sensors, electronic support measures, an electronic intelligence system (ELINT), COMINT, a magnetic anomaly detector (MAD), an IFF interrogator, a satcom, a datalink and a Link-11.
An indigenous suite for the MPAA is not far - fantastic, was waiting for this for a long time!
nachiket
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by nachiket »

^^ Excellent news if true. A C-295 MPA would be a good addition to the IN as well to supplement the bigger more expensive P-8s.
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by Cybaru »

It's possible we may see AEW off this platform as well for future if the deal is signed.
Philip
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by Philip »

We have in he past bought second hand aircraft.Our Ru LRMP aircraft for a start. If I remember correctly,a few ex-RN Sea Harriers too.So what's the problem picking up almost new ex-USAF C-17s if we really want more of the type? Or at lease lease them! NATO leased Soviet era transports and helos during the Afghan conflict,if the west could do that why can't we too? After all we're leasing an Akula-2 with another in the pipeline. Why limit leasing to just the IN? In future,only brand new IL-476s will be available for heavy transports,which I predict will be acquired once the legacy IL-76s start retiring.
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by Kakarat »

Cybaru wrote:It's possible we may see AEW off this platform as well for future if the deal is signed.
Image

Either we could get this fitted with our own radar or even ask Airbus to develop some thing similar to EMB-145 version, India definitely needs more AEWs
Both EMB-145 and C-295 are almost of the same size
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by Cybaru »

yeah. Hope they give the first few raw to DRDO first to get on with the CG and AEW conversions. If the chappati has undergone testing, we could use that config. Anyways for C295 AEW version, it was IAI that provided the radar.
Kakarat
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by Kakarat »

If DRDO takes up this project and if there is a potential confirmed order then Airbus might provide its current prototype for testing the radar and subsystems till the first purpose built aircraft is ready since there is no order for this type yet

If we want to continue discussions on this we should take it to AEW&C News & Discussion
abhik
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by abhik »

Karthik S wrote:We need 5 more C 17s based on initial requirements, if we can get those planes in reserve, it will be good enough. BTW a country like Qatar with 2.3 Lakh citizens needs 8 C 17s? What will they transport and to where?
Probably bought as part of the protection money/reverse jizya paid to the US. With the expected IAF follow up order not coming through ('white tail' which we are buying rolled out of the assembly line over a year ago) Boeing had to dump it someone. Though I don't doubt the Qataris also got some favours from the the US (like a donation of anti tank missiles to the freedom fighters of their choice by the culinary institute).
Lalmohan
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by Lalmohan »

possibly the qataris were going to supply the various sunni 'freedom fighters' around the mid east who were going to do god's work?
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