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Transport Aircraft for IAF

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby brar_w » 18 Jan 2017 02:33

The US will primarily consider this for decoy, decoy-jammer, and swarm payloads with stand off or recovery needs. PGM intergration, if happens will likely be for CAS or other "dial a strike" scenario in a low intensity, sanitized conflict.

PGM possibility does exist with future systems and it may well be a niche capability that they demo and put aside in case they ever need it. Could be a Big Safari project. GBU-X has an objective range in excess of 180 km but that is likely insufficient in a China like conflict for this mission (for altitude launches) somewhere out there in the vast Pacific but will work in plenty of areas to justify pursuing it.

http://i68.tinypic.com/v5v79x.png


RCO is working on the arsenal plane but it is widely believed to either be based on the B-52, or the B-1. They have however, explored this option for it.



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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Cybaru » 18 Jan 2017 09:09

brar_w wrote:The US will primarily consider this for decoy, decoy-jammer, and swarm payloads with stand off or recovery needs. PGM intergration, if happens will likely be for CAS or other "dial a strike" scenario in a low intensity, sanitized conflict.

PGM possibility does exist with future systems


Both PGM and dial a strike have already happened.

First SDB from C-130J
http://www.c-130.net/c-130-news-article360.html

C130 W PSP package and the Harvest Hawk units launch griffin missiles and I do see them launching bigger payloads from within cabin. http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/har ... ers-05409/

and the Derringer Door so that cabin can remain pressurized
http://www.navair.navy.mil/index.cfm?fu ... ry&id=4921

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Philip » 18 Jan 2017 12:25

A better platform that the MTA would be an IL-76/new 476 bird.heavier payload,better engines,avionics,etc. The MTA was to have had the same cockpit as an IL-476 and fuselage section,so with 20+ IL-76s already in service,why not modify one to see if the concept is really worthwhile? Frankly,for such a saturation bombing role,a dedicated bomber should be obtained.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby brar_w » 18 Jan 2017 15:48

Cybaru wrote:
brar_w wrote:The US will primarily consider this for decoy, decoy-jammer, and swarm payloads with stand off or recovery needs. PGM intergration, if happens will likely be for CAS or other "dial a strike" scenario in a low intensity, sanitized conflict.

PGM possibility does exist with future systems


Both PGM and dial a strike have already happened.

First SDB from C-130J
http://www.c-130.net/c-130-news-article360.html

C130 W PSP package and the Harvest Hawk units launch griffin missiles and I do see them launching bigger payloads from within cabin. http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/har ... ers-05409/

and the Derringer Door so that cabin can remain pressurized
http://www.navair.navy.mil/index.cfm?fu ... ry&id=4921


I was speaking about strategic transporters like the C-17 and C-5. C-130 has been in the USAF's plan for CAS for a while now.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Cybaru » 18 Jan 2017 16:31

Maybe Boeing could be a partner. They don't have a product to compete against LMs c130. MTA with same engines as c17 the p&w 40000lb and similar cockpit could be quite a competitor against a lot of other offerings. They could even sell/reuse potions of c17 line which name sense and design and development would happen in India.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Nick_S » 21 Jan 2017 05:35

C295 Refuelling Helicopter

https://youtu.be/xqbs9AF2wFM

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Austin » 03 Mar 2017 00:06

India Mulls Ilyushin Airlifter and Tanker Upgrades

http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/ ... r-upgrades
The Ilyushin Design Bureau has reported progress with Indian defense officials on agreeing an upgrade and life extension for that country’s Il-76/78 fleet. It also has offered India the upgraded Il-78MD-90A aerial tanker, and licensed production of the Ilyushin Il-114-300 regional turboprop for both civil and military missions.

At the recent Aero India show, the Indian defense ministry made public its “decision in principle” made earlier this year for a lifetime extension (up to 40 years) and a modernization of the 16 Il-76MD airlifters and eight Il-78MKI aerial tankers already in Indian Air Force (IAF) service. A similar decision is expected soon for the five Il-38SD anti-submarine warfare (ASW) aircraft serving with the Indian Navy.

The Il-114 license offer was made during the show. Production of the type is being restarted at the new location of Lukhovitsy, south of Moscow. According to Russian negotiators, Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd has signaled an intent to produce both civilian and military versions of the Il-114 under the Make in India program. The two sides are discussing ways HAL and other Indian companies can supply parts and components to Russia for completion of newly made Il-114s. The issue is expected to be discussed in detail during the next meeting of the inter-government commission on military-technical cooperation.

The Il-114-300 is viewed as a platform for development of a next-generation ASW aircraft to replace the Il-38 whose production discontinued in 1972. The Indian navy has been operating the Il-38SD version since 2010, when its first aircraft underwent a lifetime-extension and modernization program in Russia. But there were extensive delays and performance shortcomings, although these issues have since been resolved. The navy’s five remaining Il-38s are soon due for maintenance, during which they can receive upgrades similar to those now being made to the Russian navy’s Il-38Ns, with the more advanced Novella P-38 sensor suite.

Meantime, following India’s ditching of earlier plans to purchase the Airbus A330 Multi-Role Tanker Transport, the Russian proposal based on the re-engined version of the Il-76 airlifter is again under consideration in New Delhi. The first Il-78MD-90A tanker powered by four Aviadvigatel/Perm Motors PS-90A76 turbofans is taking shape at Ulyanovsk-SP factory. In addition to the engines, it differs from the IAF’s current Il-78MKIs in having UPAZ aerial refueling apparatus redesigned for high fuel transfer rates.

The IAF already uses the new PS-90 turbofans, since they are installed on the three A-50EI versions of the Il-76 that were delivered to India by Beriev for the Airborne Early Warning and Cobtrol (AEW&C) mission. These have been demonstrating satisfactory readiness, which suggests that the IAF Il-76 upgrade will also include replacement of the existing D-30KP engines with the PS-90. Ilyushin is also hoping to sell some new-build Il-76MD-90As to the IAF.

At Aero India, Indian officials confirmed their intention to continue buying the A50EI AEW&C aircraft beyond the two additional ones that are now being completed in Russia at Taganrog. The A-50EI houses an Israeli radar system, the IAI/Elta EL/W-2090 Phalcon.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Philip » 03 Mar 2017 19:55

Been saying for aeons that the IAF should standardise its AWACS/AEW,tanker and heavy transport reqs. on the proven IL-76/76MD-90 platforms .C-17 prod. has ended and the new IL-76-90 aircraft are vastly cheaper than any competition from Airbus. Having lost the tanker requirement,Airbus is pitching heavily for the hugely expensive A-330 for the indigenous AEW platform,which has less capability than the Phalcon radar. AS said before,we need a smaller platform than the A-330,but larger than the existing EMB which will enable us to field twice the number of AEW aircraft.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Cain Marko » 04 Mar 2017 05:22

Nick_S wrote:C295 Refuelling Helicopter

https://youtu.be/xqbs9AF2wFM


THis reminds me ....do the IN Ka-31s and 28s have this capability now?

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Karthik S » 04 Mar 2017 05:25

Did we get the 11th C 17 yet? Been few months since we decided to buy the remaining white tail.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby NRao » 05 Mar 2017 00:20


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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby ragupta » 05 Mar 2017 02:30

Cybaru wrote:Maybe Boeing could be a partner. They don't have a product to compete against LMs c130. MTA with same engines as c17 the p&w 40000lb and similar cockpit could be quite a competitor against a lot of other offerings. They could even sell/reuse potions of c17 line which name sense and design and development would happen in India.


Boeing is the sales partner for KC-390.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Cybaru » 05 Mar 2017 08:02

ragupta wrote:
Cybaru wrote:Maybe Boeing could be a partner. They don't have a product to compete against LMs c130. MTA with same engines as c17 the p&w 40000lb and similar cockpit could be quite a competitor against a lot of other offerings. They could even sell/reuse potions of c17 line which name sense and design and development would happen in India.


Boeing is the sales partner for KC-390.


What does that mean operationally? Can they not help create a different segment of transporters with another country? Can they not consult? Is it binding?

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby ragupta » 05 Mar 2017 21:08

Cybaru wrote:
ragupta wrote:
Boeing is the sales partner for KC-390.


What does that mean operationally? Can they not help create a different segment of transporters with another country? Can they not consult? Is it binding?


No idea, was just pointing to this fact.
Personally I would like KC-390 Made in India, In fact Embraer's product range suits India regional jet market too. It would be relatively cheaper to acquire. But if that is not happening.

I would like to see something of a hybrid design, with 3 door in the back for egress and ingress, one main for equipment that is typical of existing transporters, the other 2 on the sides for troops, so that it is faster to load and offload.

With the current experience in DRDO and HAL, a transporter project is less risky. If will be something different than the existing types. with the collective knowlegde of HAL, DRDO, NAL, ADA, Mahindra aerospace, India should be able to get this project off the ground. India is spending billions buying equipment, it should not be that difficult to spend half a billion on this project with long term benefit.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby putnanja » 13 Mar 2017 07:30

Indo-Russian transport plane JV grounded

It may now be just a matter of time before Multi-role Transport Aircraft Ltd. (MTAL), the Indo-Russian company that was to have spawned India’s own military transport aircraft, is wound up.

The closure of the company, when it happens, will formally bury a decade-old plan to co-design and co-develop a cargo/transport plane for the armed forces of the two nations.
...
...
The board of Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), which is an equal partner in the venture, may take the matter to its closure once it gets the nod, it is learnt.

A hint of this came during the February Aero India 2017, when HAL chairman and managing director T. Suvarna Raju said, “The MTA (Multi-role Transport Aircraft) project is not progressing well. As of now, no work is going on and it is currently in the ‘stop’ mode. We will be knowing about its future in the current year.”
...

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Philip » 13 Mar 2017 13:08

Sad decision.It means further delays in filling the much-needed gap .With even the LTA mired in the mud,how long will the IAF have to wait for the smaller transports which are the workhorses of the fleet? All the AN-32s have been upgraded in the UKR,but even they need to be replaced in around a decade and the MTA and LTA together would've served as suitable replacements. There was some talk/media reports about the IL-114 being examined as a suitable JV.Anything further on the same?

http://in.rbth.com/news/2016/10/18/russ ... ane_639915
Russia and India may set up joint production of Il-114-300 plane
18 October 2016 TASS

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby putnanja » 13 Mar 2017 13:49

Good riddance, the MTA project has languished for more than 10 years with no movement. Better to get more C-295s and/or C130s (non-special force versions) .

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Austin » 16 Mar 2017 16:50

India to fit six new C-130J s with terrain warning system

http://www.janes.com/article/68763/indi ... ing-system

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby pandyan » 16 Mar 2017 21:18

^^

Looks like it is TAWS Equipment + Data Subscription. Data Subscription looks more like a GPS upgrade scam :eek:
The Indian Air Force (IAF) is to equip six new Lockheed Martin C-130J Hercules transport aircraft equipped with the Terrain Awareness Warning System (TAWS), it was disclosed on 15 March.

A solicitation posted by the US Air Force (USAF) on the US Federal Business Opportunities (FedBizOpps) calls for the delivery of six C-130Js with the terrain elevation data for the TAWS. This TAWS subscription will run for 40 months starting 31 May 2017 through 31 August 2020, and will likely be renewed after

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby brar_w » 16 Mar 2017 21:37


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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby pandyan » 16 Mar 2017 22:14

Brar saar - thank you! how does it work in the context of indian subcontinent...does it mean that all terrain data in/around India is continuously mapped and updated by honeywell?

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby NRao » 16 Mar 2017 22:28

pandyan wrote:Brar saar - thank you! how does it work in the context of indian subcontinent...does it mean that all terrain data in/around India is continuously mapped and updated by honeywell?


Interesting question. So I took a quick peek at it.

http://www.uasc.com/home/shop/avionics/taws

Terrain Data

The high-resolution terrain database is stored in internal flash memory and updated using the Data Transfer Unit via a high-speed Ethernet bus. It features a data point approximately every 0.5 mile world-wide and up to 0.1 mile at mountainous airports. The terrain database also includes data for depicting oceans and large inland bodies of water.


I would expect military use would be more precise, including mention of power lines, etc.

Also remember the foundational agreements? One of them deals with digitizing terrain.
Last edited by NRao on 16 Mar 2017 22:29, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby brar_w » 16 Mar 2017 22:28

pandyan wrote:Brar saar - thank you! how does it work in the context of indian subcontinent...does it mean that all terrain data in/around India is continuously mapped and updated by honeywell?


Yes, I think they maintain a terrain database (hence the subscription). This is widely used on the commercial side as well.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Austin » 17 Mar 2017 20:42

via AFM

IAI proposes 767-300ER tanker
ISRAEL AEROSPACE
Industries (IAI) is offering
its Boeing 767-300ER
based Multi-Mission
Tanker Transport
(MMTT) to meet an
Indian Air Force (IAF)
requirement for six new
tanker aircraft. A new
tender for a tanker is
expected soon, after the
Indian defence ministry
cancelled plans to acquire
the Airbus A330 Multi-
Role Tanker Transport
(MRTT) last June. This
was the second time
the tanker procurement
tender had been
terminated since 2007.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Singha » 18 Mar 2017 07:16

Hal had done nothing on mta and were expecting a free ridevia Russians.if they could design and test the rest of it then western engines were on the shelf.

Now il114 will be the same thing just license assembly

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Neshant » 18 Mar 2017 08:07

Russians did not agree to jointly design a FADEC engine for the MTA so India opted out.

Essentially MTA was turning out to be another FGFA where Russians do the work (of putting in the same old technology). The plane is then rebranded as something new which India builds under license.

Another bag of money for an imported plane essentially.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Austin » 18 Mar 2017 10:34

Singha wrote:Hal had done nothing on mta and were expecting a free ridevia Russians.if they could design and test the rest of it then western engines were on the shelf.

Now il114 will be the same thing just license assembly


What has HAL done on any transport program so far , It has not built even an 8 seater of its own design , All it has done on transport program is lic built HS-748 and Do-228 faithfully for decades ( it didnt even care to improvise on both program ) and on commerical side has build Airbus Doors for decades which has been good revenue earner for door but nothing serious in terms of technology development.

HAL is a greenfield when it comes to any transport program be it civilian or military , it would take HAL decades even if it start doing things seriously on its own like design its own aircraft even building 50 Seater ATR types would be a decade long exercise ...but it wont be a bad project to start with they will have to start from somewhere.

All we see year on year at every AI airshow is promise to build a 50 and 100 seater since Deve Gowda days but nothing serious comes out of the project it fades as soon as AI get over

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Singha » 18 Mar 2017 12:05

well then it should have chosen a more needy or reliable partner like embraer, casa, dornier to start on that track with a 50 seater turboprop of C295/ATR72 size perhaps. going from 0 to a MTA class a/c right away hands over all technical leadership to the partner - russia in this case.

so MTA was nothing more than a scam from word go , license making and workshare branded as co-dev.

HAL has not even managed to FOC the laghu shakti engine yet let alone the kind of engine which MTA needs - why does anyone again believe it will have anything to contribute in a 0->MTA situation. the world over, engines are made by engine specialized makers not airplane makers.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Austin » 18 Mar 2017 12:31

Singha wrote:well then it should have chosen a more needy or reliable partner like embraer, casa, dornier to start on that track with a 50 seater turboprop of C295/ATR72 size perhaps. going from 0 to a MTA class a/c right away hands over all technical leadership to the partner - russia in this case.

so MTA was nothing more than a scam from word go , license making and workshare branded as co-dev


The other partners had a mature project so there was no learning curve for HAL , all it would do with C295/ATR72 is what it did with HS-748/Do-228 faithfully lic build it for decade or two , MTA was work in progress so had better learning opportunities but I am sure in the end even HAL would end up doing lic buldn them.

The best opportunity to learn is to design and build it yourself from scratch , its a decade long process and lot of learning opportunities involving private players to be involved from start , I am sure HAL/NAL can jointly design a 50-60 Seater for military needs for transport/CASEVAC/Light MPA role .....if civilian end up buying few all the more better ,even if Military makes use of it atleast beginning has been made , then they can graduate to building 100 seater so on and forth.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Austin » 18 Mar 2017 12:42

Check VKS presentation at AI 17 starts at 29:25 where he talks of RTA-70 and technologies needed to realise the program.

https://youtu.be/cMz7QdNK75c

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Austin » 19 Mar 2017 11:12

An-132 Light Transport Aircraft , Modernised version of An-32 from Antonov Design Bureau

Image
Image
Image


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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Indranil » 19 Mar 2017 20:41

I think this belonds to the international aviation related thread.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Austin » 19 Mar 2017 22:56

^^ I was thinking if we can cut a deal with Ukraine and build this at HAL as logical replacement for An-32 of IAF , Antonov needs customer and would be happy to part technology to make this in india.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby srai » 20 Mar 2017 03:17

Austin wrote:^^ I was thinking if we can cut a deal with Ukraine and build this at HAL as logical replacement for An-32 of IAF , Antonov needs customer and would be happy to part technology to make this in india.

Better to lump 54 Avro replacement with 100 An-32 replacement. Airbus CN-295 with TATA partnership is in the works to replace the Avros. More viable to continue CN-295 with more orders.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Bheeshma » 20 Mar 2017 03:33

Also use the same frame for C-295 based MRMP for IN and ICG. That should be 36-42 additional numbers. Walk away from MTA and get another 16-20 C-130's.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby abhik » 20 Mar 2017 09:57

Why should Tata/Airbus get the contract without​ any competition?

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Bheeshma » 20 Mar 2017 10:12

Other than HAL who else can make it in India? I would rather HAl-NAL work on RTA.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Philip » 20 Mar 2017 11:04

Who else? Watch this space!

Mahindra is already making parts for the Sukhoi Superjet,a 100+ med. range regional jet that uses European engines and is in large-scale production.
The MC-21 is larger,passr. capacity 150-200. Both types are being looked at by Indian airline operators.

http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp ... 525030.ece
Mahindra in race for airliner project: Russia
SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT CHENNAI MARCH 18, 2017 00:00 IST

Towards FTA:Nirmala Sitharaman, Union Minister, and Denis Manturov, Russian Minister, in Chennai.Bijoy GhoshBijoy Ghosh
‘Might be considered to manufacture parts for Irkut MC-21’

Russian Minister for Industry and Trade Denis Manturov said here on Thursday that the aerospace unit of Mahindra & Mahindra Ltd. is being considered to manufacture of parts for the Russian airliner, Irkut MC-21, in India.

“Currently, we are working on another civil aviation project apart from the Sukhoi Superjet [100]. This is the MC-21, which is scheduled to have its first flight soon. Tomorrow [Friday], we are having talks with the Indian aerospace company Mahindra & Mahindra, which is currently our partner for manufacturing interiors for the Sukhoi Superjet. We think they can also be partners for the MC-21 project, both manufacturing some components and producing interiors,” said Mr. Manturov, speaking through a translator.

Mr. Manturov was addressing a joint press conference with Nirmala Sitharaman, Union Minister of State for Commerce and Industry. The interaction took place post-inauguration of the sixth International Engineering Sourcing Show, a three-day event being organised at the Chennai Trade Centre.

Mr. Manturov is being accompanied by a 120-strong delegation to the show which is being held for the first time outside Mumbai. Russia is this year’s Partner Country; 400 exhibitors and 500 foreign delegates are participating.

Ms. Sitharaman said she and Mr. Manturov discussed the possibility of signing a Free Trade Agreement with the Eurasian Economic Union. Negotiations are on, she said, but refused to speculate on a deadline.

“Russia, as a member of the EEU, is actively engaged in the negotiations and we are trying to push for the FTA to be signed to work for the mutual benefits of out economies,” said Mr. Manturov.

Other members of the EEU are Armenia, Belarus, Kazakhstan and Kyrgyzstan.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Bheeshma » 20 Mar 2017 11:07

Sukhoi super jet will never be made in India.They are desperately trying to sell it in the Indian market.Anyway these are not military transport like the C-295.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Austin » 20 Mar 2017 11:14

srai wrote:
Austin wrote:^^ I was thinking if we can cut a deal with Ukraine and build this at HAL as logical replacement for An-32 of IAF , Antonov needs customer and would be happy to part technology to make this in india.

Better to lump 54 Avro replacement with 100 An-32 replacement. Airbus CN-295 with TATA partnership is in the works to replace the Avros. More viable to continue CN-295 with more orders.


TATA wont be doing any thing more than Screwdriver Giri with these CN-295 , all they will do is assemble this in India.

Atleast with An-132 we might have a chance to get the design/tot and lic to build it in India.


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