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Transport Aircraft for IAF

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Zynda
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Zynda » 01 Sep 2017 14:54

We have to give credit to the US Armed forces for pioneering PBL concepts. IIRC, it was US Navy which started PBL on massive scale with F-18s during 90s.

I remember watching Akash Yodha documentary during the early 2000s, when the video commentator had mentioned that India had the largest heavy lift capacity fleet in Asia (perhaps during that time)...so like Bala mentioned, the IL-76 is a good plane as long as it is available. Of course, the C-17 exceeds 76 in almost all parameters and yes, we should have gone for another 6 at least if possible, brining up the total fleet size to 16.

Karthik S
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Karthik S » 01 Sep 2017 15:04

US has 187 active and 14 C-17s in reserve, if they could sell us 5 from reserve, we can bring the number to 16.

Singha
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Singha » 01 Sep 2017 16:43

Karthik S wrote:Will we have any use of AN-124 or C-5 size aircraft?


their only real use is in airlifting very heavy or bulky cargo like armour, SAMs, big radars, road mobile ICBMs ... C17 can also do that but there are limits.

the old AN22 used to do the same before AN124.

Singha
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Singha » 01 Sep 2017 16:45

the IL76MD90A is a stretch but the diameter of tube is not increasing. so makes it still useless for airlifting T90 or Smerch..as the current width barely fits a T72. ..despite the 50% more payload weight.

brar_w
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby brar_w » 01 Sep 2017 17:37

Most western modern SAM systems can deploy DO/DO with the C-17 and even THAAD which has a much larger deployed footprint is transportable using it. I Don't think most of IAF's and IAs modern air defense systems should have any trouble deploying using the C-17 or a combination of C-17 and C-130J. More footprint optimized AD systems (like MEADS and NASAMS) can even be deployed exclusively via the C-130J.



THAAD Launchers :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnRW_jsSBzk
Last edited by brar_w on 01 Sep 2017 18:42, edited 1 time in total.

abhik
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby abhik » 01 Sep 2017 18:28

BTW what is HAL's plan B now that MTA is off the table? Hope they are not doing chai-biskoot internally after doing chai-biskoot with the Russians for a decade.

YashG
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby YashG » 02 Sep 2017 00:44

Guys as we discuss the costs of russi and amriki planes, I'd like to add that american platforms and for that matter all western platforms are inherently very well designed - but its a double edged sword sometimes. So we might be paying for some design costs for US platform that wouldnt really be useful to us. To that extent its a built in cost that we can do nothing about. Just to be clear this doesnt mean that the cost differential is not worth it - as higher availability justifies it -but as a caveat we maybe paying some over designing.

For e.g. Americans are increasingly designing their aircrafts for accomodating 0.5% to 99.5% percentile of their population - not for 5% to 95% percentile as earlier. Their decision to do this rises from the fact that US population is ageing and their pool for armed forces is limited. For india the pool is so large that any design that works for 5-95% percentile also will still leave us with no shortage of pilots. As someone who understands something about design ( I teach design - at good places :wink: ) I can tell you taking design envelope to 0.5-99.5% is a far larger cost than taking it to 5-95%.
Stuff like this and more adds up to the final cost that we shouldnt be paying.

Russis on the other hand dont do this design so well, so their hardware is cheaper. Physical characterstics of Indians is way diff than US & russis. So a 5-95% demographic design for russians will be something like 10-85% demographic fit for Indians (numbers only guesswork ) but a 0.5%-99.5% demographic design might still be 5-95% or even 3-98% fit for indian. How it affects the user experience is evident in the love in forces for western maal.

Design is often so intangible that you can feel it even if you dont see it. Therefore user experience wise between two products even if same specwise - will leave vastly difference user experiences - users wont be able to tell you sometime why they love a certain hardware but a well designed product will always make a fan out of an user. I think this might be a reason why forces love all maal western. I dont see why with a bit of product design inputs can make desi maal too lovable - who knows LCA might already be there, since NID, Ahmedabad had inputs to LCA.

Gaur
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Gaur » 11 Sep 2017 11:09

India, U.S. in talks for C-17 deal

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/india-us-in-talks-for-c-17-deal/article19656203.ece

On June 26, the State Department notified Congress of a possible sale, approving it under the Foreign Military Sales programme. “The validity of the Letter of Acceptance for the sale expires in mid-October and India has to conclude the deal before that or ask the U.S. for an extension,” an official said.

The aircraft, along with associated equipment, technical support and warranty, is estimated to cost $366.2 million.

“The aircraft will be handed over within a month of the contract having been signed after some routine checks and maintenance. The handover will be done in the U.S. itself, and it will be flown to India by Indian pilots,” Pratyush Kumar, president, Boeing India, told The Hindu.

The Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) gave its approval for the purchase in December last.

Karthik S
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Karthik S » 11 Sep 2017 11:16

Thanks, was wondering what happened to the deal. So we have been still sitting on our back even with the last C 17.

Philip
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Philip » 11 Sep 2017 12:26

Yes,the "white tail" if left in the coop will soon turn "grey"! An interesting titbit found about the A-330 tankers for the RAF.They're being leased at rather high cost,but interestingly some other western air forces are cleverly leasing old Tri-Star aircraft for much less than the Airbus,TRi-Star aircraft with far more tanker capacity (30%%) as well as range/endurance. This is an avenue that the IAF can also pursue/examine,leases for similar or more competitive aircraft than just the Airbus,whose performance is inferior and price superior.

Singha
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Singha » 11 Sep 2017 13:01

lockheed tristar is a very old a/c some kind of ancestor the MD11 - of the famous 5 seats in the middle fame 2+5+2

Bart S
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Bart S » 11 Sep 2017 16:45

abhik wrote:BTW what is HAL's plan B now that MTA is off the table? Hope they are not doing chai-biskoot internally after doing chai-biskoot with the Russians for a decade.


Wouldn't a 'land' version of the Shinmaywa US-2 be in the same weight class?

Singha
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Singha » 11 Sep 2017 17:27

the sea plane shape is not suited to land ops.

Bart S
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Bart S » 11 Sep 2017 18:25

We could still collaborate on making a land variant with them, will require major changes but a lot of the subsystems can be carried over. Win-win for both as their production line is pretty stagnant.

abhik
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby abhik » 11 Sep 2017 18:34

Still don't get why BRFites have a hard on for sea planes. The Japanese have the C2 transport aircraft which might be just what we need (in high double digit numbers at least).

Chinmay
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Chinmay » 11 Sep 2017 18:49

Why do we want to add to the zoo? Sticking to the proven C-130Js + C-295s(if and when they come) should be sufficient. HAL doesn't need to produce an MTA.

Viv S
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Viv S » 11 Sep 2017 18:58

The IAF is already slated to operate 12 C-130Js. We have built up valuable experience with the type, it works well everywhere including our high altitude air strips. Why complicate matters by introducing yet another type, to perform the same role?

If more MTAs are needed, and I am not entirely convinced they are, just order another batch of the cheaper non-SF variety C-130Js, or (if the orderbook is large enough) set up a local assembly line at TASL.

Edit: Chimay beat me to it.

Bart S
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Bart S » 11 Sep 2017 21:03

I think the point of the MTA was not just to get a transport aircraft (when any number of proven platforms exist to buy off the shelf) but to get expertise with a large platform and also control some of the design. For example, good as it is, the C130 is never going to be allowed to be modified as a bomb truck or even a AC-130 clone gunship. Or a MPA with our own mix of non-US weaponry.

Viv S
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Viv S » 11 Sep 2017 21:42

Bart S wrote:I think the point of the MTA was not just to get a transport aircraft (when any number of proven platforms exist to buy off the shelf) but to get expertise with a large platform and also control some of the design. For example, good as it is, the C130 is never going to be allowed to be modified as a bomb truck or even a AC-130 clone gunship. Or a MPA with our own mix of non-US weaponry.

Core design experience we will only get with a new clean-sheet project which isn't economical for the quantities we envision (the export market is already saturated). The best we can hope for is local assembly and component production that can hopefully feed into the global eco-system. In the C-130's case, that would mean TASL expanding its participation in the production process.

Special variants (bomb-truck, gunship, tanker, EW) already exist in the C-130's case and that's a major advantage, if anything. With any other aircraft we'd likely contract with the OEM to undertake & certify modifications to the airframe affecting flight characteristics.

Other minor customizations, with third-party EW gear or weapons for example, are quite feasible. Functionally, its no different from IAI-Gulfstream modifying a G550 for ISTAR or AEW functions.

Indranil
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Indranil » 11 Sep 2017 23:08

I think India will take up the design and development of 20-40 Tonner. Matter of time.

Kakarat
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Kakarat » 16 Sep 2017 15:10

I think India should consider Kawasaki C-2 as replacement for MTA and have them manufactured in India by private sector under collaboration with Japan. The Japanese developed it specifically for short runways and it is suppose to land with 26 ton on a 500m runway.
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