Transport Aircraft for IAF

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Kakarat
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Kakarat » 11 Jun 2019 12:50

Philip wrote:AN-70s won't be replacements for an IL-76/476 heavylifter.We need a twin- jet MTA and need to reopen the file for long- term requirements .We lost earlier opportunities to buy out Fokker,Dornier too, where we build the bird for RUAG! I doubt that we would pay a huge sum just for one aircraft type.There is no comparison between Russia's massive state defence enterprises and puny UKR's.The Ru entities have all been reorganised after the collapse of the USSR, many entities esp. in the aviation industry merged or placed under one head for cost- effectiveness.Barring maritime engines which were the UKR's speciality, Russia needs almost nothing from its former republics unlike before.China has lept ahead by employing Ru and former Warsaw Pact scientists in its myriad defence programmes and stealing western secrets.


Yes yes An-70 wont be the right replacement for IL-76 since Russia is no more a partner for the project, If it was then it would have been the perfect replacement

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Philip » 11 Jun 2019 13:35

Please, just look at the disparity in the sizes of each! They are two totally diffetent classes .The 4- engined heavyweight IL-76/476 cannot be a replacement for an MTA.The AN-70 is med-range.Extra C-130s already in service would be a better option.We will have to make do with C-295s until a new MTA programme is mooted.Had babudom not won, the JV for the MTA would've seen thd first aircraft in service by now.Babudom has tried to scuttle the C-295 programme too becos its in the pvt sector where it has no control over the programme..

PS:The turbo-prop AN-70 could better compared with the C-130J.More C-130s would be preferable given its provenance and already in service.
Last edited by Philip on 11 Jun 2019 14:42, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Khalsa » 11 Jun 2019 14:42

I agree with just the last last half sentence of yours.

Il-76 are not heavy future we need to think about. That is covered off by the C-17. Right now the C-17 and IL-76 are filling up the medium spectrum because no one else can.

Plus lets think outside the transport spectrum as well.
EW
Tanker
AWACS

there is more to this than we can imagine.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Kakarat » 11 Jun 2019 20:27

Philip wrote:Please, just look at the disparity in the sizes of each! They are two totally diffetent classes .The 4- engined heavyweight IL-76/476 cannot be a replacement for an MTA.The AN-70 is med-range.Extra C-130s already in service would be a better option.We will have to make do with C-295s until a new MTA programme is mooted.Had babudom not won, the JV for the MTA would've seen thd first aircraft in service by now.Babudom has tried to scuttle the C-295 programme too becos its in the pvt sector where it has no control over the programme..

PS:The turbo-prop AN-70 could better compared with the C-130J.More C-130s would be preferable given its provenance and already in service.


Payload of IL76- 48T (the legacy MD variant in IAF service)
Payload of An-70- 47T
Sure they are not comparable since Russia is not part of the project anymore

And for your information An-70 is not Turbo-prop but Propfan or ultra high-bypass turbofan which offer the speed and performance of a turbofan, with the fuel economy of a turboprop. There is also a planned variant with conventional Turbofan

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby agupta » 11 Jun 2019 21:02

Interesting discussion re An70. I think we're missing a few key facts:
* There is NO evidence that the Ukes are willing to do ANYTHING more than a JV. For all their desperation... it may be even possible there is nothing left to sell except documents. This was a program from the 80s and 90s and 20 yrs later, much of the workforce and talent could be gone (retired, to China, or ...)

*A airframe program whose only hope of survival depends on a (potential) JV with Turkey ? or a US one ?

* What's the supply or value chain behind this...He Ukrainian Propfan is also dead, right ? Its only 2 users on Wiki seem to be defunct or dead Airplane concepts - the An70 and the Be-42. So one branch is to change the engines and re-engineer. How many more such critical components and sub-systems that would have zero commonality with any established supply chain will this need.

It would have been a nice aircraft for sure. It will be missed. Yes - full design knowledge WOULD be useful to the Indian ecosystem but to expect an easy or cheap conversion to a fleet of aircraft is not a given

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby UlanBatori » 12 Jun 2019 01:33

Did they find the missing AN32?

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Khalsa » 12 Jun 2019 04:59

UlanBatori wrote:Did they find the missing AN32?

Yes

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Manu » 12 Jun 2019 05:22

Height of 12 000 feet in Arunachal Pradesh

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Philip » 12 Jun 2019 08:41

Tx K for the engine info.But still not in the class of a jet-engined heavylifter.I still would prefer the Hercules to the AN.Solid support for the bird which I imagine would last at least another 50 years with so many flying.An absolute classic transport.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Khalsa » 12 Jun 2019 16:09

What have you done to my Phillip you yankee scoundrel ?

Fair enough Phillip, In other news Kiwis have bypassed tender to replace their ageing vintage 4 X C-130 with 6 X C-130Js
nothing beats the deep support there but I repeat. the request is for a platform ... not a plane.

Let me ask this another way, what would it take us to build a Boeing 737 like aircraft ?
We got tonnage of help by looking at Mirage 2000 a/c and got lots of consulting hours as well when we embarked on the Tejas journey.
Where and How do we start that journey for a large transport aircraft ?

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Singha » 12 Jun 2019 16:34

imo the embraer KC390 is nearing the IOC. we should sign up a Embraer to borrow the KC390 design but upsize it by 50%.

the only other option is the japanese kawasaki c2- again upsize by 50%

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kawasaki_C-2

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embraer_KC-390

HAL has made nothing bigger than an32 and that too from license. it has no exp in design and manufacture of a modern medium sized plane. we will need lots of handholding but we will get there since brazil and japan are viable aerospace powers.

ukraine antonov is good but who knows what clauses the cheen have put in and their best people and designs may have already been purchased by cheen.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby chola » 12 Jun 2019 16:40

The reason I looked at the AN-132 almost exclusively is because I feel that the size and technology level is in our sweet spot. The chances of it being on-time and successful would be very high. Though I love the size of the AN-70, it might be a bit more we can chew with our first bite at a large aircraft.

The Saudis left the AN-132 project under reported Russian pressure and the difficulty of setting up an industry. I thought the Saudis were too ambitious since SA never even built a Cessna before. Being in the aircraft industry is simply hard.

We have far more experience and, more importantly, an infrastructure in place as opposed to the Saudis and the AN-32 based design is reliable (despite the recent news) and versatile.

Khalsa mentioned the AN-12/Y-8 but the AN-24/26/32 Y-7 is built in a plethora of mil and civ variants too.

Xian Y-7H: (Huo -cargo) A reverse-engineered An-26 with rear loading ramp for the PLAAF
Xian HYJ-7: (Hongzhaji Yunshuji Jiaolianji - Bomber/transport/trainer) A pilot and crew trainer for H-6 heavy bombers
Xian JZY-01: Carrier-based airborne early warning and control (AEW&C) variant.
Xian MA60-100: Reduced weight improved performance.
Xian MA60-MPA Fearless Albatross: Maritime patrol and ASW variant.
Xian MA40: Reduced capacity 40-seat variant offered for sale in 2002.
Xian MA60H-500: A military cargo version of the MA-60, with rear cargo ramp.
Xian MA600: A much improved MA60, the prototype of which was completed on 29 June 2008.
Xian MA700: the latest civilian variant that sits 68-86 with 185 pre-orders

Now the C-295 will be a direct competitor to the AN-132. But the opportunity for the AN-132 was not there before. We are buying the C-295 for the Avros not the 100+ remaining AN-32s we have so we still need more aircraft than the 60 not to mention a platform for many other things including NETRA and its followons.

We will not get full ownership and export rights from Airbus. We will from Antonov if we replace the Saudis.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby abhik » 12 Jun 2019 17:50

C-295 weighs 11t empty, i.e. around 1/2 that of an MKI and around 50% more than Tejas - by no means a "heavy" airframe. This class should have ideally been targeted for designed & made in India rather than screwdriver-giri.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby brar_w » 12 Jun 2019 19:53

Singha wrote:imo the embraer KC390 is nearing the IOC. we should sign up a Embraer to borrow the KC390 design but upsize it by 50%.


Even before the coming together of Embraer and Boeing commercial (which essentially bankrolled Embraer by wiping clean their debt) the two companies had an agreement on the KC-390. It is no coincidence that the aircraft is in the US for testing that could just as easily have happened in Brazil. The USAF has an important decision looming in the mid to late 2020s' around what to do with the Hercules with even the Jercules which is now a nearly 2 decade old design requiring serious upgrades or replacement. An iteration of the KC-390 with more payload and more efficient engines will probably form Boeing's entry to recapitalize the C-130 fleet so I doubt that the two firms would be open to just handing of the design to a third party given how big a potential C-130 replacement market is going to be in the US and around the world in the 2030-2050 time frame.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Singha » 12 Jun 2019 20:05

japani C2++ then, as usual they are in loop of no exports and high unit cost. being a non lethal product should raise less political noises there.


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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Philip » 13 Jun 2019 02:20

We must take a leaf out of China's book.42 A-320s built a month in 2015! It now makes its own clone of it.
Airbus set up a plant for China.
With huge orders of the same by our commercial airlines, why the thought never entered the GOI's head for the same over here beats one. 42 aircraft a year , one-tenth Chin production rate, would be a fantastic achievement for HAL whose production rates of various platforms is dismal.Various specialised versions of the A-320 could also be built just like P-8I ASW birds based upon the Boeing 737.ASW/ LRMP, AEW/ ELINT tankers and transports could be theoretically manufactured over here.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Nikhil T » 13 Jun 2019 02:52

^If we want to build 42 A-320 type planes a year, then HAL is not the right entity for it. It demands a different work culture and different infrastructure.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Khalsa » 13 Jun 2019 05:02

Nikhil T wrote:^If we want to build 42 A-320 type planes a year, then HAL is not the right entity for it. It demands a different work culture and different infrastructure.


Gold struck right here !!

HAL seems to be becoming a failure because we are myopically using it as a looking glass for everything.

HAL must be protected and India must have options

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby chola » 13 Jun 2019 06:53

^^^ Nothing to do with Cheen. It is all Airbus. The management is Airbus. The planning and work schemes are Airbus. The lines are the same at other Airbus completion centers. All the profits (from cheaper chini labor and chini sourced parts) go to Airbus. Everything in short is Airbus.

Cheen has other mass production things we can look at but this is not one of them. It is not even screwdriver giri. There is no chini HAL here to gain TOT. There is no TOT. Just Airbus doing their thing.

That is not to say Cheen doesn't gain greatly from this. A trained workforce and a local plant to spy on is priceless. Cheen holds back European assembled planes to force this plant. https://money.cnn.com/2018/01/12/news/companies/airbus-china-certification-delivery-delays/index.html

BTW, if we want this we have to play hardball with our purchasing.

The Tianjin assembly center in Cheen is one of only four Airbus completion sites in the world, the others are Toulouse (France) and Hamburg (Germany), of course. The only other one outside Cheen is Mobile, Alabama, US. The two biggest markets in the world. We will be the third largest.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby abhik » 18 Jun 2019 16:15


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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Philip » 20 Jun 2019 09:58

What commonalities are there with the 32 and 132 if any?

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby VikramA » 20 Jun 2019 10:24

Philip wrote:What commonalities are there with the 32 and 132 if any?

None what so ever when it comes to engines, avionics except perhaps in aircraft handing and performance which may help in pilot transitions and training

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Karthik S » 06 Aug 2019 15:07

Guys final C 17 was supposed to join in Q3 this year. Any news where our 11th bird is as of now?

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby chola » 06 Aug 2019 16:07

Karthik S wrote:Guys final C 17 was supposed to join in Q3 this year. Any news where our 11th bird is as of now?


As far as I know, the 11th is coming off the Long Beach assembly line as the one of its last planes before it closes down for good. We wanted three but it took the babus so long to approve the order that Boeing sold four of the last five in the final batch the IAF was targeting to Qatar and we ended with the one.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Karthik S » 06 Aug 2019 16:08

That I know, babus sitting on their back sides, happy we got atleast one, was a three way fight to grab last plane. But it's supposed to join anytime now. Considering how much they are being used, wish we gone in for original planned 16.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby chola » 06 Aug 2019 16:12



Yeah, I read somewhere (Alan Warnes I believe) that Saudi Arabia still has a soft hold on the project. In fact, the Saudis said that if India buys the AN-132 then they will continue funding the project. I don't know what would happen if we try buying the design and IP instead of just being sales customer.

I want the AN-132 only if we can own it. Otherwise, I'd just go with the C-295.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby chola » 06 Aug 2019 16:26

Karthik S wrote:That I know, babus sitting on their back sides, happy we got atleast one, was a three way fight to grab last plane. But it's supposed to join anytime now. Considering how much they are being used, wish we gone in for original planned 16.


Well they are pricey compared to the Russians. But just like the P-8s, I don't think the MoD had any idea before we got them that their uptime and availability would be so high and more than justifying the cost. The P-8s in five years flew more mileage than five decades of Ilyushin usage. lol

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Rakesh » 26 Aug 2019 19:56

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1165909326348914690 ---> Boeing has delivered the IAF's 11th C-17 Globemaster III

Image

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Philip » 27 Aug 2019 12:07

The IL-112 has made its debut earlier this year, another possibility to replace AN-32s and will be displayed at MAKS.However the sooner the C-295 deal is sealed- delayed for aeons, the better.Ind. pvt. industry must get its legitimate share of contracts to give competition to mollycoddled , spoonfed DPSUs.Even shipyards are given contracts with no competition, complaints from pvt. industry.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby chola » 27 Aug 2019 15:21

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1165909326348914690 ---> Boeing has delivered the IAF's 11th C-17 Globemaster III

What a beautiful aircraft. I am glad we got the last one before the production line shut down. (Angry at the babus that they sat on the IAF order for 3.)

Where do we go for big transports now? The IL-78? The brand new C-17s are like warships with decades of life but I can't see the IAF not needing more than just 11 of them.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Bart S » 27 Aug 2019 15:39

chola wrote:
Where do we go for big transports now? The IL-78? The brand new C-17s are like warships with decades of life but I can't see the IAF not needing more than just 11 of them.


We should look at getting 747-8Fs, which can do serious heavy lifting, although only with proper airports. The C17s can do a niche role where required whereas the civilian freighters can handle the routine loads. Not everything requires C-17s, with routine palletized loads the 747 can do a great job.


Should also keep any eye out on C17 users who want to sell, though I don't think that there would be any unless they are in financial distress etc.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Karthik S » 27 Aug 2019 15:57

The US has 200+ C 17s. May be they can sell us half a dozen once they pull out of Afg.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Khalsa » 27 Aug 2019 16:55

Bart S wrote:We should look at getting 747-8Fs, which can do serious heavy lifting, although only with proper airports. The C17s can do a niche role where required whereas the civilian freighters can handle the routine loads. Not everything requires C-17s, with routine palletized loads the 747 can do a great job.


Agreed, the amount of tweaking that would be required to service the routine shuttle service between Chandigarh and Leh| thoise would be peanuts compared to the life that would be saved of these airframes.

Many large airlines are offloading 747s but I am not sure about the running costs vs C-17.
Did we ever bash this discussion with regards to IL-76 vs 747s.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Karthik S » 27 Aug 2019 17:01

Wouldn't it make better sense to go for C 5 galaxy instead of 747 cargo version?

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Bart S » 27 Aug 2019 17:12

^^Doesn't have to be a 747-8F, that would be needed only for special, massive cargo requirements. Regular logistics can be handled by civilian freighters though, even USAF with 270 of these outsources a lot of the logistics flying especially for routine stuff. You get civilian cargo models in all sizes from narrow to wide body jets to turboprops.

A semi-government or govt funded civilian freight service would be great. Could ensure high utilization and readiness by handling civilian shipments (massive growth area with ecommerce etc), make profits, and cover the needs of the non-specialized military logistics.

747-8F carries much higher theoretical load than the C17, but needs a longer runway, isn't EMI hardened, doesn't have the strengthened flooring to carry tanks etc, so it isn't quite a substitute for the C17. But basic point is that it would be best to use C17 where required and supplement by regular freighters rather than to try and exclusively use military grade transports.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Bart S » 27 Aug 2019 17:16

Karthik S wrote:Wouldn't it make better sense to go for C 5 galaxy instead of 747 cargo version?


C5s havent been produced since almost 40 years, and much like the 747s, they aren't as tough as the C17s.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Vips » 27 Aug 2019 18:02

Karthik S wrote:The US has 200+ C 17s. May be they can sell us half a dozen once they pull out of Afg.


India is negotiating to buy two old C17's from USA. This was after the Babudom procrastinated in buying the last 3 C17's that were built. We got just one after another buyer bought the other two.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby abhik » 27 Aug 2019 19:38

For palletized loads the A-330 MTTR woul be the perfect fit IMO since it is a dual role (we probably can't afford 2 separate aircraft anyways).

As far as C17s are concerned, Qatar has half a dozen of theo, should be our first target.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Prithwiraj » 27 Aug 2019 21:51

Khalsa wrote:
Bart S wrote:We should look at getting 747-8Fs, which can do serious heavy lifting, although only with proper airports. The C17s can do a niche role where required whereas the civilian freighters can handle the routine loads. Not everything requires C-17s, with routine palletized loads the 747 can do a great job.


Agreed, the amount of tweaking that would be required to service the routine shuttle service between Chandigarh and Leh| thoise would be peanuts compared to the life that would be saved of these airframes.

Many large airlines are offloading 747s but I am not sure about the running costs vs C-17.
Did we ever bash this discussion with regards to IL-76 vs 747s.


Well they need to be converted to freighter version first and get re-certified. Brand new 747-8 F version is in production though.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby brar_w » 27 Aug 2019 21:54

abhik wrote:As far as C17s are concerned, Qatar has half a dozen of theo, should be our first target.


Those are not for sale, and if they go on sale in the mid to late 2020's, I suspect the USAF would want to bid for those as well.


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