China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

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aditya.agd
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby aditya.agd » 30 Apr 2013 05:48

Is there any government in India to protect Indian territory?

nash
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby nash » 30 Apr 2013 08:27

current government is good for nothing, every passing day it is becoming unbearable, either its a coalgate or china or marine etc, supreme court have to intervene in every case.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby member_23455 » 30 Apr 2013 08:36

DavidD wrote:1) Phillips, I agree regarding the importance of territorial issues to the Indian government. The proof is all too evident on this board, and unfortunately for India and as I pointed out in my post, the Chinese are taking full advantage of this fact. Too many people are too worked up over these rinky dink Chinese tactics, and losing sight of the far bigger picture.

2) Yes, you're right, China as an ascending power is seeking to expand in all directions. However, believe it or not, the Chinese are not so stupid as to antagonize all the regional powers. The Chinese government realizes that it cannot simply expand its direct control in all directions, and thus has, by 2011, settled all land border disputes except those with Bhutan and India. How did they do that? They settled EVERY SINGLE one of those dispute at a net LOSS of territory, except the dispute with Vietnam, which was settled at a 50-50 split. The Chinese focus is entirely on the seas, and the land dispute with Bhutan and India is only one part of that plan.

3) As to specifically what India has to do, I can't really speak on that. IMO, what India needs the most is clearer strategic vision. Maybe we can discuss this further later on.


1. Agree, all the bloodlust on BR on annihilating a platoon-odd of PLA with WMDs, airstrikes, et al is just frustration spilling over that the GoI has no bigger picture on China apart from "status quo" - because any other course of action would require the political executive to take risks and up the ante.

2. The facts are to the contrary - China has upped the ante across the board. It is no longer just bullying Phillipines and Vietnam but also taking on big boys like Japan and India. Much before the new Chinese leadership took over and at a time when N. Korea could have been a distraction, China is sending out a message, but we lack the high quality HUMINT and insight into why now and where will this all lead to.

3. India does have a clear strategic vision wrt China - it's just the wrong one of "status quo" similar to the European appeasement of Hitler. We would have gone on business as usual as would the Japanese, with the strategic lines being crossed, as long as the territorial ones were not. Ironically, there will never be a better time for India to get rid of its insecurity as being seen as a poodle of the Yanks, and use this opportunity to become part of the Pacific Pivot and push the dragon back into its lair.

Ironically, there is a precedence for this when we joined the West under the UN flag in Korea, where Indians fought and died as well, as well as our half-hearted collaboration with the US on Tibet.

But not only does this require a change in our govt., we need to dismantle the current China Study Group, NSA, NSAB structures and purge all the posers who serve on these bodies.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Vinit » 30 Apr 2013 09:09

RajitO wrote:
Ironically, there is a precedence for this when we joined the West under the UN flag in Korea, where Indians fought and died as well


As far as I know, India provided medical support in the Korean war, and Indian troops did not participate in actual fighting, nor did they take any casualties. Happy to be corrected with any sources that say different.

India did propose an armistice to the UN, which was instrumental in getting the cease-fire in place and defining the current boundaries.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby member_20296 » 30 Apr 2013 09:24

My gut feeling says there could be several skirmishes across the Indo-Tibetan border, followed by a big blame game on each other and then a universal call from India and China to come to table and resolve all pending issues.

They will try to gain upper hand and come to table to settle issues in their favour. Next couple of years could be tense. In this soccer game we need to ensure we make more goals then we give.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby member_23455 » 30 Apr 2013 16:10

Vinit wrote:
RajitO wrote:
Ironically, there is a precedence for this when we joined the West under the UN flag in Korea, where Indians fought and died as well


As far as I know, India provided medical support in the Korean war, and Indian troops did not participate in actual fighting, nor did they take any casualties. Happy to be corrected with any sources that say different.

India did propose an armistice to the UN, which was instrumental in getting the cease-fire in place and defining the current boundaries.


Not to derail the purpose of this thread or the larger point, but when these medics jump behind enemy lines, a Captain in another action is awarded the Vir Chakra, I would say they fought.

Did they die? Not from the medic unit. Did others die? This is what Amar Jawan has to say:

6574267 Sep Charan Singh (ASC )Army Service Corps UN Operations Korea 3-Mar-52
ME121700 Sep Paltoo (EME )Corps of EME UN Operations Korea 17-Sep-53
2729841 Ptr Dharu Shinde (2 Bn )The Parachute Regiment UN Operations Korea 16-Dec-53
3943286 Sep Raghu Nath (3 Bn )The Dogra Regiment UN Operations Korea 12-Jun-54

Also, check out http://www.koreanwaruk.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Varoon Shekhar » 30 Apr 2013 16:50

Today's "Frontline" will probably have some commentary along the lines of China is not behaving perfectly, but India is more to blame. From A.Noorani or M.Joshi or other China apologist/excuser. Hope I'm wrong...

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby nits » 30 Apr 2013 17:39

rohankumaon wrote:
Chinese troops put up another tent in Ladakh, hoist a banner "you are in Chinese side


Athithi devo Bhava... Please pass them some Beddings and Parle G Biscuits with Hot Tea... this is a localized incident after all... Infact BR should ban discussing such trivial things :evil:

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby sourab_c » 30 Apr 2013 19:15

For what its worth:

Chinese cruise ship in disputed islands angers Vietnam

To many Vietnamese the cruise isn’t about tourism but something more like imperialism: “China’s sending the cruise ship to the Paracels was the latest in a series of unilaterally provocative actions in the area,” Thanh Nien News wrote. (The newspaper is the flagship publication of the Vietnam National Youth Federation.)

China, Vietnam and Taiwan all claim the Paracels, which China has occupied since a brief war with South Vietnam in 1974. They are part of a larger territorial dispute in Southeast Asia with China claiming about 80 percent of the South China Sea and disputing ownership with half a dozen Asian nations, who also have some disputes among themselves. In recent years China has moved to reinforce its claims strongly, calling its sovereignty over the area “indisputable,” as my colleague Jane Perlez has reported.

All that makes the cruise, which departed Sunday, sensitive stuff. And it doesn’t appear to be an entirely ordinary voyage: for one, only Chinese citizens from the mainland of China were allowed on board, Chinese media reported. Chinese citizens from the non-mainland Chinese territories of Hong Kong and Macau, and Taiwanese, overseas Chinese and “foreign passport holders” were “politely refused” for the 4-day, 3-night cruise that cost 6,000 to 10,000 renminbi ($1,000-$1,600), the newspaper Chu Tianjin reported Tuesday, without offering an explanation.


A security alliance between nations threatened by China sounds like a reasonable solution at this point. (We can do things like deploying coastal Brahmos missiles lining Japan to Vietnam to India under mutual control of all nations involved in the pact)

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby NRao » 30 Apr 2013 19:40

1) There is a new and a lot more aggressive leadership - both civilian and military - in China
2) If anyone wants to prevent China from making such moves China has to be taken on and put into her place. What China is betting on - IMHO - is that no one is going to act, which is what needs to be disproved

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby sourab_c » 30 Apr 2013 19:51

^ True. It is time to call their bluff.

I think China is overestimating its capabilities. Part of the reason why China is acting this way is the centuries of repression that the Chinese people have endured. 30 years of growth and prosperity is now causing them to overcompensate which is foolish IMO.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby NRao » 30 Apr 2013 19:57

India NEEDS to take the lead in such matters. But the leader is used to waiting, not a good sign.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby skganji » 01 May 2013 00:20

India needs to kick out incompetent leaders like MMS and the remote controller PM Sonia. They have no vision. They have done lot of damage to India internally and externally . A change in the top leadership is required to pull out chinese tents from Ladakh region. India can't act like a scared rat like in 1962 . India needs some aggression.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby VinodTK » 01 May 2013 06:46

From Times Of India: Third flag meeting fails; China wants India to dismantle security structures in Ladakh
NEW DELHI: A third flag meeting between Indian and Chinese troops failed to break the deadlock between the two sides, with the Chinese insisting that India take down security structures in Fukche and Chumar in Ladakh without offering reciprocal commitments.

"The meeting was unsatisfactory," foreign minister Salman Khurshid told TOI, indicating that the standoff might not blow over just yet.
:
:
:
Indian officials were told by Chinese commanders that they would have to wait for orders from Beijing. This seems to fly in the face of Prime Minister Manmohan Singh's assessment that the incident was "localized" and that the government had a plan to resolve it.

It seems clear now that rather than local adventurism, a well-thought out Chinese strategy is at work that caught India off guard at a time when the government is grappling with domestic political turmoil and on the eve of a visit by Chinese Premier Li Keqiang.


The impasse is pushing India to take more muscular steps which would invite retaliation, a situation India is keen to avoid. But this is looking increasingly likely, sources said.
:
:
:

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby nirav » 01 May 2013 17:30

NRao wrote:India NEEDS to take the lead in such matters. But the leader is used to waiting, not a good sign.


skganji wrote:India needs to kick out incompetent leaders like MMS and the remote controller PM Sonia. They have no vision. They have done lot of damage to India internally and externally . A change in the top leadership is required to pull out chinese tents from Ladakh region. India can't act like a scared rat like in 1962 . India needs some aggression.


The Coal-gate situation seems to be getting out of hand for the Govt. IF the heat becomes too much on the political front, I trust the Congress to launch a diversionary tactic in the name of "national security" by launching limited military action against the Chinese. They would do anything in their power to stay afloat till 2014.

Hope IA has kept its gunpowder dry.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby chaanakya » 01 May 2013 23:58

Chargil??

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby aditya.agd » 02 May 2013 00:08

chinese have caught Indian government pants down. Looks like India is going to lose some more territory. :(( :rotfl: . India's enemies will be enjoying the dhoti flying (for peace) show.... :rotfl:

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 823876.cms

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby aditya.agd » 02 May 2013 00:15

I think the Indian government needs to know that country runs on military strength not on business relationships.... sad day for Indians.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 822794.cms

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby NRao » 02 May 2013 02:34

Indian democracy at work?

The one cog that is weak (or broken) is trying to wake up. Now they will put the pressure on the services, tie their hands behind their backs (SL and Kargil) and have the Services bail the broken politicians out of the mess that the politicians have created.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby skganji » 02 May 2013 03:14

aditya.agd wrote:I think the Indian government needs to know that country runs on military strength not on business relationships.... sad day for Indians.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 822794.cms


I don't think it is a sad day for Indians. They are getting what they deserved. Why are they electing incompetent leaders like MMS and giving goddess like status to Sonia and treating Nehru family as if they are like kings and queens . We need to kick them out of power so that somebody gets a chance to fix the mess that is created by them. Unfortunately Indians don't learn and they elect the same non-sensical leaders again and again. No hope for India. Pakistan on the right and China is kicking on the left. Useless leaders are confused and have no vision to face the crisis boldly. Shameful situation for India. Army, Navy and AF are just for show on Jan 26th and August 15th at India gate. Shame . Shame. Screw business relationships with China. India doesn't need cheap plastic from China.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby RoyG » 02 May 2013 03:30

Yawn, many BRFites including myself knew GoI wouldn't do anything. Now the Chinese troops are being resupplied by trucks. Nothing will change. There will be an inquiry and we will force the Chinese to sit through useless border talks and then eventually manage to push them only halfway back after stopping infra work on our side.

Funny to see some who still believe that this government is capable of growing a pair and actually doing something. Meanwhile, additional salt is being rubbed into a now festering wound by the pakistanis who beat an indian prisoner to death. We couldn't even get the Pakistanis to take action on that case and some believe that the army is going to be handed orders to be "aggressive" against the Chinese.

Even our news channels want to turn this incursion into a "debate" when there is none. It's our land and the Chinks are squatting on it.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby skganji » 02 May 2013 03:38

GOI has no guts and no shame. They will give the land to china forever . They have not done anything when Akshai chin was taken away, when Tibet was annexed and they will do nothing now. Useless dacoits and scoundrels are running the government. My blood just boils how they are f...cking shameless bunch of idiots sitting in Delhi and doing nothing for almost 4-5 weeks from now. Just blast these tents ... f...cking morons . Another case of their incompetency and shamelessness is the death of Sarabjit Singh in Pakistan Jail. GOI lacks even some basic courage to talk to its neighbour toughly to protect its citizen who has been sitting in Jail for dubious reasons. MMS should have resigned for all the scandals and for all his failures.
Last edited by skganji on 02 May 2013 06:20, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby shiv » 02 May 2013 05:36

skganji wrote:I sometimes feel it is being very unfortunate to be an Indian .
Every other country in the world has got some guts and shame . GOI has no guts and no shame.


Wrong thread for this sobbing predictor of defeat

My response here
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6459&p=1450547#p1450547
Last edited by shiv on 02 May 2013 05:47, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby chanakyaa » 02 May 2013 05:37

I sometimes feel it is being very unfortunate to be an Indian .
Every other country in the world has got some guts and shame . GOI has no guts and no shame. They will give the land to china forever....

With all due respect, you realize that you can spare the agony for yourself and future BRFites by taking the charge of the country, because you, YES YOU, are much more smarter, intelligent, and patriotic than all the politicians combined. Imagine, Mahatma Gandhi said the same thing instead of taking the charge of the country, we would be still flying the union jack. My apologies for picking on your post, but the same thing applies to me. No need pointing fingers at politicians. PEOPLE WHO ARE IN CHARGE OF INDIA ARE THERE BECAUSE GOOD PEOPLE LIKE YOU AND ME HAVE DECIDED THAT POLITICS IS NOT FOR US. Lucrative public/private careers are obviously path of least resistance. We can not make big difference in 2014 but we can definitely sow the seeds for tomorrow.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby skganji » 02 May 2013 06:08

I have read both Shiv's comment and chanakyaa's comments. Whatever is your opinion you have spoken ?. I don't agree with Shiv's comments that my comments are non-sense. May be he needs to accept that current political party that is running GOI is completely useless. The Indian leadership has done nothing in last 4 weeks to give any confidence to its citizens and concerned people across the world that they are doing something to stop the chinese aggression. Even in the US, people write about their leaders when they fail. What is wrong in expressing frustration and anger against Indian politicians ?.
I don't think that china will kick India's ass. It is the Indian politicians who are doing nothing and letting china kick its ass. In 1962 it happened way before I was even born. Now in 2013, I am a grown up adult and I can see how the same attitude like in 1962 is still continuing in our political establishment. What kind of confidence are these politicians giving to ordinary citizens like us ?. The politicians who are running the current government are acting like Ostriches when it comes to recent chinese incursion and in the matter of corruption and accountability they are doing everything in their hands to cover their dirty acts and their dirty deeds. Whatever I can do at an Individual level I am doing . Sorry I am not claiming I am the most intelligent . I am just concerned for India as a India born human being.
Last edited by skganji on 02 May 2013 06:15, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby shiv » 02 May 2013 06:15

skganji wrote:I have read both Shiv's comment and chanakyaa's comments. Whatever is your opinion you have spoken ?. I don't think that china will kick India's ass. It is the Indian politicians who are doing nothing and letting china kick its ass. In 1962 it happened way before I was even born. Now in 2013, I am a grown up adult and I can see how the same attitude like in 1962 is still continuing in our political establishment. What kind of confidence are these politicians giving to ordinary citizens like us ?. The politicians who are running the current government are acting like Ostriches when it comes to recent chinese incursion and in the matter of corruption and accountability they are doing everything in their hands to cover their dirty acts and their dirty deeds. Whatever I can do at an Individual level I am doing . Sorry I am not claiming I am the most intelligent . I am just concerned for India as a India born human being.


Wrong thread sir.

THIS IS NOT THE THREAD TO DISCUSS INDIAN GOVERNANCE.

Please rely to my post in the other thread if you have anything sensible to say apart from crying your eyes out. You have made an utterly shameful post and that opinion has been moved to the appropriate thread where Ihave stated what I think

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby skganji » 02 May 2013 06:16

ARE YOU THE MODERATOR ?. IF YOU ARE THEN YOU CAN DELETE THE COMMENTS.
Last edited by archan on 04 May 2013 15:28, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: Warning issued.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby PrithviRajChauhan » 02 May 2013 06:21

Seeing the current scenario one country (which is friendly towards India) is actually feeling good ..... Bhutan
You may ask why ? because Bhutan is considered to be the weakest neighboring country of China !
Well, not anymore guys , that place is well taken by India and that too on good merit.
We Indians deserve this
Achievements of Indians :
1. PM of India --> Get selected by a foreign lady in the so called biggest democracy of world
2. President of India --> Tainted Politicians ( It was rumored that Pratibha Patil while vacating the office even took RP Bhawan cutlery with her)
3. Chief Election Commisioner --> Selection based on political adherence
4. Army chief --> Tainted Army personell gets promoted as Chief of the staff
5. Media --> All political and foreign influenced
6. Chief Justice --> Katju was the chief justice of India and now the unofficial spokesperson of Congress
7. PM Cabinet --> wonderful mixture of professionals with proven expertise in every imaginable act which would be categorized "Criminal Activity" in any civilized country on this planet.

With such a wonderful team of thorough professionals running every important institutions what else is expected ?
And mind it, is we and only we who are responsible for such a mess.
I am afraid to say but I guess democracy is not that good as governance medium for a country which has the largest number of illiterates and poor in the world. I know , lot of people here would find my above statement offensive but that is what I feel. Also I feel the largest minority of this country has too many conflicting views with the majority. With so many contradictions I am not sure what future lies ahead for my beloved India.

I am really lost with words and I see a bleak future for my country.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby skganji » 02 May 2013 06:49

Well said Prithivraj. Truth needs to be spoken and you have spoken it. Don't be afraid. I love my mother India and I don't need anybody's certificate on that. Jai Hind.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby muraliravi » 02 May 2013 06:57

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2013/20130502/main5.htm

Guys no whining here please. Based on the link above it seems the Chinese have started even laying a road. This means they are just buying time and ready for escalation. The army chief has suggested the goi to give permission for full attack and cutting supply lines. Can anybody here educate on if it is possible at this stage.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby sarabpal.s » 02 May 2013 07:06

looking at Sonia and its remote mms I dont think governments going take hard action till her power is in danger.

than she can issue a order to attack to divert internal pressure toward this incident.

government makeing exact ground to use this opportunity later to gather vote by acting cowardly now and raising pitch during election till than.....political dog barks.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby NRao » 02 May 2013 07:28

Chinese incursion 19km, but 750 sq km at stake for India

The audacious intrusion into the Depsang Bulge, a table-top plateau, threatens to cut off India's access to some 750 sq km area in northern Ladakh: an area roughly half the size of Delhi. The face-off site is just about 35km south of the strategic Karakoram Pass, which is at the tri-junction of China-Pakistan-India borders, and overlooks the Siachen Glacier-Saltoro Ridge to the west and the Indian observation post in the Chumar sector to the east.

Indian Army and ITBP patrols to Daulat Beg Oldi (DBO) and the Karakoram Pass have to trek across the Saser and Depsang passes - both in excess of 16,000 feet -- on foot from Sasoma, which is over 80km north of Leh. So, loss of control over the Depsang Bulge would cut off access to the areas north of the passes.

Officers who have done stints there say the Depsang Bulge is the only staging area in the region from where Indian forces can group men and machines to launch any action. This is because the bulge is the only wide open land in the region which is full of high jagged ridges of the Karakoram range in the north and Ladakh range in the south.


And this place did not have some form of a presence to dissuade anyone from marching in on a nice morning?

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby NRao » 02 May 2013 07:35

China Is Seen Nearing U.S.’s Military Power in Region

(NYTime, so may need userid/password)

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Singha » 02 May 2013 07:55

>> And this place did not have some form of a presence to dissuade anyone from marching in on a nice morning?

idea is to preserve peace and tranquility on the border by leaving such openings for people to shaft us.

India is always preparing to fight the last war better(T90s for TSP, cold start, lots of pokhran exercises) rather than the next war.even the idea of holding big scale exercises on himalayan front is likely vetoed by the PMO to preseve panchsheel

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby SaiK » 02 May 2013 08:33

You know what, time has come to demonstrate surya... and make a sound to the neighborhood to back off!! and with a time line to Pokhran III if they fail. And this time, tell the world we have reasons. inform ahead, about even weapons config, test measurements, and do it all open.

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby karan_mc » 02 May 2013 08:58

Seems like chinese are working overtime poking their neighbours
China supplied Mi-17s with TY-90 air-to-air missiles to Myanmar insurgents

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby jai » 02 May 2013 10:32

PrithviRajChauhan wrote:Seeing the current scenario one country (which is friendly towards India) is actually feeling good ..... Bhutan
You may ask why ? because Bhutan is considered to be the weakest neighboring country of China !
Well, not anymore guys , that place is well taken by India and that too on good merit.
We Indians deserve this
Achievements of Indians :
1. PM of India --> Get selected by a foreign lady in the so called biggest democracy of world
2. President of India --> Tainted Politicians ( It was rumored that Pratibha Patil while vacating the office even took RP Bhawan cutlery with her)
3. Chief Election Commisioner --> Selection based on political adherence
4. Army chief --> Tainted Army personell gets promoted as Chief of the staff
5. Media --> All political and foreign influenced
6. Chief Justice --> Katju was the chief justice of India and now the unofficial spokesperson of Congress
7. PM Cabinet --> wonderful mixture of professionals with proven expertise in every imaginable act which would be categorized "Criminal Activity" in any civilized country on this planet.

With such a wonderful team of thorough professionals running every important institutions what else is expected ?
And mind it, is we and only we who are responsible for such a mess.
I am afraid to say but I guess democracy is not that good as governance medium for a country which has the largest number of illiterates and poor in the world. I know , lot of people here would find my above statement offensive but that is what I feel. Also I feel the largest minority of this country has too many conflicting views with the majority. With so many contradictions I am not sure what future lies ahead for my beloved India.

I am really lost with words and I see a bleak future for my country.


Please correct your facts - Katju was never chief justice - just a judge of the supreme court.

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19837
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Philip » 02 May 2013 12:02

As an an aside,if the reports about Pratibha's kleptomania is true,then why should we not call for an inquiry/RTI petition whatever? It is simply scandalous to seethe country "looted and scooted" by swine like out politicos.

Is Salman-the-Cursed still going to Beijing to kiss Leaky-King's backside and beg forgiveness for the countrywide protests against the Chinese theft of Indian territory? past time to organise anti-Chinese demos across the country and burn Chinese goods.

Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 23310
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby Austin » 02 May 2013 13:18

Aerospace Industry Cooperation Between Ukraine and China ( via MDB )

Natalya Pechorina

China was the fourth country to sign a cooperation agreement with Ukraine’s Ministry of Defense and an intergovernmental agreement on defense industry cooperation after the republic declared independence. The two documents were signed in April 1994; seven years later Kiev and Beijing signed a protocol containing amendments to the agreements. In November 2000 the two countries also concluded an agreement on mutual protection of secret information.

During the 4th session of the Intergovernmental Commission held in Beijing in May 2008 Chinese representatives said that bilateral defense industry cooperation had attained a level which warranted stronger confidentiality arrangements. Previously, the bilateral conference headlined “Aerospace Industry Cooperation Between Ukraine and China: Problems and New Approaches”, which was held during the Aviation Expo China 2007 exhibition, was by invitation only, and off limits to the general public.

During the 5th session of the Intergovernmental Ukrainian-Chinese Coordination Commission for Military and Technical Cooperation, held in Kiev on August 12-14, 2009, the two sides reiterated once again that defense industry cooperation between them was of a confidential nature. They vowed to take all necessary measures to protect information about that cooperation, and agreed that neither side would disclose any such information to the mass media or to third countries without prior consent from the other. This is why reports about Ukrainian-Chinese defense industry cooperation are few and far between; in addition, they are often contradictory.

Nevertheless, according to Ukrainian officials, the Chinese military-political leadership regards Ukraine as one of its key foreign partners, with an important role to play in rearming the Chinese forces with the latest weaponry and military hardware. In addition, the Chinese have demonstrated strong interest in exchanging the results of R&D in high-tech areas; they are also keen to train their specialists in Ukrainian universities and specialist schools.

According to Chinese sources, more than 100 Ukrainian-Chinese projects had been completed as of May 2008, and the overall value of bilateral defense industry cooperation deals had reached 1bn dollars. Several large contracts worth a total of up to 800m dollars were signed in 2008-2010. One of them is a contract for aircraft engines made by Motor Sich (TV3-117VM, AI-25TLK, and AI-222K-25/25F types). Under the terms of another deal, specialists from ANTK Antonov are involved in designing a heavy transport for the Chinese Air Force and launching its mass production. The 5th session of the Intergovernmental Commission held in August 2009 in Kiev also agreed to pursue the following important projects:

Supplying radars, radio-electronic warfare technology, communication systems and radio-technical reconnaissance instruments

Refurbishing aircraft, engines and components, including Mi-8/171 helicopters, and Su-27 and Su-30 fighters

Comprehensive training of Chinese engineers and technicians in repairing aerospace hardware

Various equipment for attack and naval aviation helicopters; helicopter protection systems

Sales, repair and upgrade of air-to-air missiles and anti-tank guided missiles

Supply of spare parts for radars used on Su-27/30 aircraft

The Ukrainian partner in most of these projects is the state-owned company Ukroboronservis, a subsidiary of Ukrspetsexport; up until the mid-2000s the company was regarded as the main Ukrainian contractor for all Chinese projects.

Another company with a strong involvement in Ukrainian-Chinese aerospace industry cooperation is Antonov. Its executives have stressed on several occasions that aerospace industry cooperation between the two countries goes back 50 years. It began in 1959, when specialists of what was then the OKB-153 design bureau were helping the Chinese to launch production of the An-2 aircraft under Soviet license. Thousands of these light transports have been built in China, where they remain in production to this day (unlike in all the former Soviet republics). It was perhaps symbolic that the first deal signed between the two countries at the Air Show China’2000 exhibition was an agreement on upgrading the Y-5 (the Chinese version of the An-2), concluded with Shijiazhuang Aerospace Corporation. Another deal, signed with Shaanxi Aerospace Corporation, was to set up an after-sale service and maintenance center in China for the An-12 and Y-8 aircraft. The contract also included designer supervision and upgrade of the Chinese fleet of these aircraft. It was also revealed that back in the 1990s ANTK Antonov had fulfilled two contracts with the Shanghai Aviation University to research the aerodynamic characteristics of new passenger aircraft being designed by the Chinese. During the exhibition itself the two sides signed a new contract to conduct joint aerodynamic testing of a future regional turbojet aircraft.

Ukrainian-Chinese aerospace industry cooperation therefore entered the new century on a high note.

Cooperation between Antonov and Chinese companies

The ARJ21 regional passenger aircraft (joint project with AVIC-I)

On April 30, 2002 ANTK and AVIC-I signed a contract for joint development of the wing for the ARJ21-700 regional jet program. Work under the contract was conducted in 2002-2007. ANTK has fully delivered on its side of the deal. The rollout of the ARJ21-700 aircraft took place in December 2007. ANTK then offered its services in upgrading the ARJ21-900 plane, but the Chinese declined.

The Y-8F600 transport aircraft (joint project with AVIC-II)

In June 2002 ANTK and Shaanxi Aircraft Industry (Group) Co, Ltd (SAC, an AVIC-II subsidiary) signed a contract for joint development of the Y-8F600 aircraft. Work under the contract was conducted in 2002-2007. In September 2007 the two sides signed another contract “for the assessment of upgrade options for the Y-8F600 aircraft”. In February 2008 Ukrainian executives held talks with AVIC-II president, Zhang Hongbiao. The two sides signed a protocol of the working meeting, and agreed to continue cooperation on developing an upgraded aircraft.

The Y-9 medium transport (replacement for the Y-8F600)

Upon completion of the contract for the assessment of upgrade options for the Y-8F600, ANTK approached AVIC-II with an offer of cooperation in conducting the actual upgrade. AVIC-II president Zhang Hongbiao accepted that offer on a preliminary basis. At an exhibition in Zhuhai in 2008 representatives of the united AVIC corporation announced their intention to develop a new medium transport, the Y-9, and to involve ANTK in the project.

Heavy transport aircraft (joint project with AVIC-I and AVIC-II)


On December 18, 2003 ANTK and SAC signed an agreement on joint development of a heavy transport aircraft (HTA). In 2003-2007 there were several events held in the framework of cooperation between ANTK and AVIC-II under the HTA program. AVIC-II proposed the idea of using the An-70 design as the starting point for the HTA. In May 2007 the Chinese side informed its Ukrainian partners that the government in Beijing had designated AVIC-I as the lead developer for the program. In 2008 ANTK and AVIC-I held talks about the terms of the Ukrainian company’s participation in that program; the contract was signed in August 2008. In August 2009 the design phase of the program was completed. The two sides signed a contract for the assessment of the comprehensive technical design of the YX transport. Assembly of the first prototype began that same year. The first test flight of the Y-20 was held on January 26, 2013.

The An-26 and An-30 aircraft previously supplied to China (joint projects with the PLA Main Armaments Directorate, China TALY, and Lingyun Science & Technology Group Co)

In 2001-2004 Ukrainian and Chinese partners signed an agreement on restoring eight An-26 aircraft to flight worthiness. ANTK offered its services in restoring the flight worthiness of the Chinese fleet of these aircraft, but Beijing put the program on hold, citing lack of funds. As of today, ANTK and China’s Lingyun Science & Technology Group intend to continue their cooperation.

China’s Lingyun Science & Technology Group approached ANTK with an offer of cooperation in restoring the Chinese fleet of An-26 and An-30 (operated by the PLA) to flight worthiness. ANTK then prepared a technical and commercial offer on upgrading those planes; the company wanted a share of the subcontracts. In 2006 Aviant Aircraft Plant, which has since been renamed the Antonov Aviation Plant, continued to supply An-26 parts and components to China Taly Aviation Technologies Corp.

MA700 turboprop passenger aircraft


In November 2006 ANTK and AVIC-I held preliminary talks about cooperation in modernizing the Y-7 passenger aircraft; the talks concluded with the signing of a protocol. In August 2007 the two sides signed a memorandum on joint development of a new passenger aircraft, the MA700, to replace the Y-7. Since then, China has ended cooperation with ANTK under that program.

On the whole, Antonov has made a significant contribution to the development of China’s aerospace industry; its importance is comparable to the contribution made by Russia’s Sukhoi, Kamov, Mil, and Yakovlev. Western companies – including American, Israeli and Brazilian corporations – have also played a role. Finally, the Chinese themselves deserve credit. Almost all of the new Chinese planes and helicopters which took to the air in recent years were launched independently, with minimal involvement of foreign partners at the very early phases of R&D.

Cooperation in aircraft engine making

Ukraine’s Ivchenko-Progress and Motor Sich have maintained cooperation with Chinese partners since the mid-1950s, when China launched production under Soviet license of the AI-20 and AI-24 turboprop engines of various modifications used on the An-12/24/26 aircraft. That cooperation eventually led to the signing in December 2008 of new contracts for the AI-25TLK turbofan engines for the K-8 (JL-8) jet trainer aircraft, and for 63 TV3-117VM turboshaft engines used on Mi-171 helicopters. The Ukrainian companies are also providing designer supervision for the AI-222K-25 turbofan engines, which are used in the flight testing of the new L-15 jet trainer. Under another contrat signed in December 2005, Ukrainian companies supply AI-222K-25 and AI-222K-25F engines and components for the L-15 plane.

In October 2006 Ukraine’s ZMKB Progress provided its Chinese partners with a set of technical documents, worth 520,000 dollars, for a project to adapt the AI-222K-25 engines. In early 2007 China National Aero-Technology Import & Export Corporation (CATIC) received from Progress the first batch of four AI-222K-25 engines, worth 1.1m dollars apiece.1

According to Igor Kravchenko, chief designer of Ivchenko-Progress, the next product to be supplied to the Chinese was the AI-222K-25F engine. “As part of that project we have developed a new boost engine technology,” Ivchenko said. “In early summer 2009 we and our partners shipped the first batch of the engines to the customer. The pace of the program suits us very well. Before they began to use the AI-25TLK engines on the JL-8 trainer, there were five or six years of negotiations. It all depends on the requirements of the Chinese customer.” Kravchenko added that China had bought a total of nine AI-222K-25F engines, and signed a contract for another 40.2

The first 10 mass-produced AI-222K-25 turbofan turbojet engines with jet pipes and with a maximum thrust of 24.5 kN (2,500 kgf) were delivered to AVIC International Holding Corp. by Motor Sich in two batches of five, in May and July 2012. The unit price was 1.765m dollars.3 It appears that the engines will be upgraded to AI-222K-25F specification in China, because that is the specification stated by Ukrainian sources which wrote about the deal at the time. The AI-222K-25F model (used on the L-15 supersonic combat trainer) has a maximum thrust of 4,200 kgf in boost mode.

An even more successful product developed by the Ukrainian engine makers is a modified AI-25TL turbofan engine, which entered production in Zaporizhzhya back in the late 1960s.

The JL-8 (the base modification in China) and the K-8 (the export version) were designed as multirole combat trainers which delivered excellent value for money and were very cheap to run. The planes can be equipped with different engines, depending on the modification. In June 1998 the Chinese Air Force took delivery of the first six JL-8 trainers, which were equipped with the Ukrainian-made AI-25TLK engines. The L-11 is an upgraded version of the JL-8 equipped with a Chinese-made copy of the AI-25TLK (designated in China as the WS-11). It was only in March 2003 that the engine passed final certification, but several sources claim that the WS-11 is no longer being used on new aircraft. As of late 2012 the Chinese Air Force and the Chinese Navy operated more than 250 JL-8 aircraft, with another 200 on order.

The K-8 is the basic export version of the trainer. The aircraft supplied to foreign customers who are not under U.S. export restrictions – such as Egypt (K-8E) or Pakistan (K-8P) – are equipped with the Garrett (Honeywell) TFE731-2A turbofan engines. Other customers are offered a version of the aircraft equipped with the Ukrainian-made AI-25TLK engine. As of late 2012, such aircraft were in service with the air forces of Sudan (six K-8S), Bolivia (six K-8VB), and Venezuela (16 K-8W, with another two aircraft already lost). In the case of “problem” customers it makes a lot of sense for China to buy engines from Ukraine so as to ensure uninterrupted exports.

The AI-25TLK sales figures for 2012 have yet to be released. But in any event, based on the numbers supplied to foreign customers so far (about 270), this model is an undisputed leader in Ukrainian exports of aircraft engines.

The supplier has put in place a flexible logistical system whereby faulty engines are sent by the customer to Motor Sich, which performs the necessary repairs and returns them to China. That was the mechanism used in late 2012 for one of the AI-25TLK engine operated by Bolivia. The whole operation took only six months to complete, which is lightning-fast by post-Soviet standards.

In March 2008 the two sides signed a new contract to build an AI-25TLK engine repair facility in China; the deal entered into force the following November. The repair facility was set up by Motor Sich and China’s Tianli corporation at an aircraft repair plant in Xiangfan, Hubei Province. The overall value of the 15-year contract is about 50m dollars. It is thought to be the first of a whole package of licensing deals which include supplies of spare parts and the training of Chinese specialists.

According to Vladimir Shirkov, head of marketing at Motor Sich, the Chinese engine service and maintenance market is very promising because more than 1,000 Ukrainian-made engines are currently in service on Chinese aircraft.

Cooperation on Kh-55 missiles and missile engines

An embarrassing scandal broke out some years ago over the contraband of six Kh-55 (AS-15) long-range cruise missiles from Ukraine to China in April 2000. The missiles were supplied in breach of the international Missile Technology Control Regime, which Ukraine signed up to back in 1998. The shipment was made using a fictitious contract between Russia’s Rosvooruzhenie and Ukraine’s Progress, a foreign trading subsidiary of Ukrspetsexport, for 20 Kh-55 cruise missiles, and a forged end-user certificate purportedly issued by the Russian MoD. Another 12 Kh-55 missiles were shipped in 2001 to Iran. Several people involved in the scandal later died under suspicious circumstances.

China has never recognized that the missiles have ended up on its territory. But in 2003-2004 China’s CATIC bought six fully equipped MS-400 small turbofan engines (matching the number of missiles reportedly supplied to China), loaded with fuel and lubricant, along with GTT-MS-400 solid-fuel generators, for 145,000 dollars apiece.4 The MS-400 (also known as R95-300, R95TM-300, and Product 95) is a compact turbofan engine developed by Moscow-based NPO Soyuz. The engine is still in mass production at Motor Sich; it is used as the main engine of the Kh-55 cruise missile. In 2007 Poly Technologies Inc imported another three of these engines, paying 181,500 dollars apiece.5 Other items supplied to China included special containers, sets of spare parts, logbooks, user manuals, and electronic control systems, including Part 7815, Part BVPR-4S, and the GTT-MS-400 solid-fuel generators. The Ukrainian supplier of all these items was Motor Sich. The official claim was that the engines were bought for future Chinese unmanned aerial vehicles.

Cooperation on Il-76/78 aircraft

Ukraine is known to have exported to China two Il-76MD jet transport aircraft which were previously assigned to the Soviet 37th Transport Aviation Regiment (Artsiz). The planes were made in 1984, and in the early 1990s they were operated by private companies on commercial routes.6 The two Il-76MDs have made a contribution to China’s Project 998, a program to develop an indigenous AWACS aircraft. In 1997 Russia, Israel and China signed a contract on joint development and manufacture of the AI (A-50I) AWACS plane, to be supplied to the Chinese air force. But after coming under pressure from Washington, in the summer of 2000 Israel suspended its participation in the program. In 2001 Israel officially informed Beijing that it was pulling out of the deal.

China did not have any other readily available options for building AWACS systems. It was therefore decided to refit the Il-76MD transports bought in the 1990s into AWACS planes. But the Chinese did not have a sufficient number of them; they could not use the existing fleet of 10 Il-76MD transports operated by the Chinese Air Force because that would weaken the force’s transport capability. Buying a new aircraft was not an option because mass production of the model had already ended. That is why Beijing used one of the Il-76MDs bought in Ukraine for static testing, and the other (which had just been refurbished by the manufacturer) was refitted into a flying laboratory to test various AWACS components. As a result, China was able to conduct the necessary R&D without weakening its heavy transport fleet.

Also, in 2011-2012 Ukrspetsexport signed and began to fulfill two Chinese contracts, worth a total of 95.5m dollars, for three Il-78 tanker aircraft and five Il-76MD transports from the Ukrainian MoD surplus. The deal became possible after the Tashkent Chkalov Aircraft Production Company proved unable to fulfill a Chinese contract for 34 Il-76MDs and four Il-78 tankers signed of the Rosoboronexport in September 2005.

The Nikolaev Aircraft Repair Plant (NARP) is currently conducting pre-sale repairs and refurbishment of two Il-78 aircraft (manufacturer numbers 0063465958 and 0073478359). The first of the two planes is due to be delivered to China later this year. Ukrainian-Chinese cooperation in the aerial refueling tanker segment began back in 2007, when China Taly Aviation Technologies Corp. bought at least six UPAZ-1 standard aerial refueling pods, worth 270,000 dollars apiece.

In previous years, the same Ukrainian company supplied China’s Lingyun corporation with spare parts, instruments and finished products for Il-76/78 aircraft, in addition to control and testing instrumentation and ground service hardware for those planes.

NARP has also provided assistance to the Chinese with repairs and maintenance of the aircraft’s engines. Almost every year AVIC buys from the Ukrainian company various spare parts and special components for the D-30KP Series 2 turbofan engines used on the Il-76/78 aircraft, including turbine blades and compressors. Ukrspetsexport and its subsidiaries act as intermediaries in all these contracts; each individual deal is not large, but their combined value has reached several million dollars.

Some of the exports to China were not channeled via intermediaries. For example, China Taly Aviation Technologies Corporation bought spare parts for engines used on “Tu-154M civil aviation aircraft” directly from Kiev-based ANVP Avialuks repair plant in 2011. In fact, all Chinese Tu-154Ms are in service with the Chinese Air Force; some of them are being used as ELINT reconnaissance planes. Furthermore, most of the components of the D-30KU-154 turbofan engine used on the Tu-154s are interchangeable with components of engines used on the Il-76MD transports.

Carrier-based aircraft

There is a widely held view that the first Ukrainian carrier-based plane sold to China was the T-10K-7 aircraft (serial number 03-02), bought in 2004. That was the missing aircraft component of the Project 11436 Varyag heavy aircraft carrying cruiser, which the Chinese bought in 1999. After the cruiser was delivered to China, the plane was initially left sitting at the Kyrovskoe airfield in Ukraine. In actual fact, however, the first carrier-based plane delivered by Ukraine to the Chinese was the T-10-3 (serial number 01-01), the first such aircraft assembled by KnAAPO. The plane underwent a series of tests at the NITKA aircraft carrier deck simulator (Saki airfield) and was left there because it could not make the flight back to Russia. In the mid-1990s the Ukrainian MoD scrapped the aircraft and cut it to pieces (which proved to be a big mistake later on) before eventually selling the pieces to China.

The plane was used to test various engineering solutions for carrier take-off and landing, including the design of the wing, the reinforced chassis, the landing hook, etc. Buying that aircraft was an excellent way to study the Sukhoi design bureau’s R&D process during the development of a carrier-based fighter. The plane was sold to the Chinese in early 2001, when the Varyag was still sitting in Mykolayiv, awaiting Turkey’s permission to make the passage through the Bosporus. Back at the time, officials insisted that the ship would never again be used in its original role as an aircraft carrier. But the purchase of the T-10-3 (for which China paid a ridiculously low price) was a clear indication of Beijing’s motives for buying the Varyag.

The last carrier-based aircraft supplied by Ukraine to China was an Su-25UTG, a trainer model used for practicing landing on a carrier deck. The plane was delivered in 2007. Previously, in 2006 the Ukrainian Institute of Information Registration supplied Beijing Great Gate Guang Cheng Marine Machinery Suppliers Co. with a set of documents drawn up in accordance with “Technical requirements for the development of structural and functional schemes of an aircraft complex command system”. The deal, which was channeled via the Spetstekhnoexport intermediary, was worth 100,000 dollars.

Thanks to these acquisitions, Chinese specialists obtained access to physical samples of two out of three types of Soviet carrier-based aircraft, plus reams of technical documents. Undoubtedly, this sped up the development of indigenous Chinese models as part of the country’s carrier-based aviation program.

Ukraine has also provided China with substantial assistance related to other modifications of the Su-27/30 aircraft. The leading role here was played by the Zaporizhzhia-based MiGremont. Over several years of cooperation with China Taly Aviation Technologies Corporation, the company has provided the Chinese with all the technical documentation, on electronic media as well as on paper, related to repairs and maintenance of the hull, instruments and components of Su-27 and Su-27UB planes. It has also supplied control and testing instruments and ground maintenance hardware, including the Diana 9 automated diagnostics system (MiGremont’s own original design) worth 150,000 dollars.

The state-owned Motor Repair Plant, based in Lutsk, provided similar services to CATIC. It sold the Chinese technical documents (on paper medium) related to the repairs of AL-31F turbofan engines and engine components used on the Su-27 planes. A Chinese aircraft repair plant in Chengdu obtained from Ukraine manuals for various instruments used for the repair of such AL-31F engine components as Product NR-31V and Product RSF-31V. While they still had the chance, the Chinese also got hold of operation and repair manuals for components of the RD-33 Series 2 turbofan engines used on the MiG-29s; China’s own Air Force does not operate such aircraft, but neighboring India does. That purchase pursued goals other than pure research or analysis of the potential adversary’s weapons. The Russian RD-93 turbofan engine, which is used on the Chinese-Pakistani RC-1 (JF-17) fighters, is a modification of the RD-33. There is little doubt that Chinese designers and engineers have made good use of whatever they have learnt from that engine.

The Kharkiv-based FED research and production company has been working closely with China since the late 1990s. It is a leading supplier of fuel metering systems and hydraulic equipment. It has fulfilled dozens of Chinese contracts over the years; those were mainly related to components of the Su-27 and Su-30MKK aircraft operated by the Chinese Air Force, as well as components for Mi-17 helicopters (including hundreds of NR-3 regulator pumps of various modifications). In 2008 alone, the Beijing-based China Qing An International Trading (Group) Co. Ltd bought about a hundred of NP-96M pumps manufactured by Dnipropetrovsk Machinery Plant, worth 15,000 dollars apiece. The pumps are used on Su-27 aircraft.

Indeed, FED’s cooperation with China has become so close that in 2010 it set up a Chinese subsidiary called FED China Technology. The results of that move were not long in coming. The following year, during the 14th Aviation Expo/China-2011 exhibition, the company signed four contracts with partners from Xian and the Shengyang Aircraft Engines Institute to develop new components for aircraft control systems, as well as pumps for a future engine to be used in new civilian and military planes. After the completion of the R&D phase, the hardware will be manufactured by a joint venture in China.

Another indication of the breadth of Chinese interest in aerospace innovation is the purchase by Wang Hai Long (Liaoning) of three AK1-3 ultralight helicopter kits developed and made by KB Aerocopter (based in Poltava). The contract was signed in December 2012; the price paid by the Chinese was 135,000 dollars apiece.

Airborne weapons systems

In Soviet times, the state-owned company Artem was the lead manufacturer of guided missiles for MiG-29 and Su-27 aircraft. It was therefore almost inevitable that the company would maintain close contacts with Chinese customers. In 2006 China received more than 1,500 R-27 (AA-10) missiles of various modifications; some of them were bought directly from Kiev, others were sold via Russia. Rosoboronexport had bought about 800 assembly kits via DP Progress, and exported the finished products to Beijing.

The price policy of Ukrainian supplies has also been very attractive to the Chinese. Suffice is to recall just one example: in 2006 China bought from Ukraine a batch of 90 missiles designated as Product 470-1E (R-27ER1 air-to-air missiles) and 60 missiles designated as Product 470-3E (R-27ET1 air-to-air missiles). The price was 28,000 dollars apiece. Another batch of six R-27R1 and 14 R-27T1 missiles was bought by Kintex from Bulgaria – but at a much higher price of 262,000 dollars apiece.

There is no information about any Ukrainian sales of these missiles to China in later years. That is probably because China has lost interest in R-27 series missiles, having launched production of its own weaponry in this category. Ukrainian weapons exporters have repeatedly tried to secure sales of new R-27s of various modifications, as well as new missiles developed in partnership with the Luch design bureau. These include Products 621 and 621-1 (Kombat guided anti-tank missiles); Baryer-B; and Gurt missile preparation and testing kit. They have also approached the Chinese about extending the service life of previously exported R-27 missiles and Gurt kits.

The Chinese, however, no longer require these services because they already have a sufficient pool of trained specialists. Furthermore, in 2006 CATIC received from the Kiev-based Luch design bureau a set of testing instruments and diagnostic equipment for the repair of the Gurt kits, as well as all the manuals and technical documents. That had eventually led to a sharp decline in output at Artem.

In early 2008 the Krasilov Machinery Plant supplied a set of engineering documents, user instructions and repair manuals for the APU-470 aircraft launch units and the AKU-170 aircraft ejection units to a Chinese aircraft repair plant in Wuhu. Ukrinmash was involved in the deal as an intermediary. A total of 23kg of these documents were sold for 1,199,627.5 hryvnyas, which was about 240,000 dollars at the January 2008 exchange rate. The Ukrainian company also supplied repair kits for the refurbishment of the APU-470 (1:10) product, as well as various other hardware and testing equipment for the repair of the APU-470 (including vibration benches and testing benches). The value of the deal was also about a quarter of a million dollars. Predictably, since then the Chinese have not required any Ukrainian expertise or spare parts for these products.

In the second half of the 1990s the Khmelnytskyy-based company Novator began to supply finished products N001E and N001VE to the Chinese Air Force’s aircraft repair plant in Nanking. The products in question are targeting radars used on Su-27, Su-30 and Su-30MK aircraft. Their functionality includes target detection, identification, designation and illumination. In later years the Ukrainian company also began to supply parts and components for these radars. It then developed the UM522 low-noise amplification module to replace the unreliable parametric amplifiers used in the N019-09 and N001-09A microwave receivers, and a new quartz generator with better frequency stability compared to the old Soviet-made component. The new parts were used to upgrade the radars already supplied to Beijing. After obtaining that technology, Chinese specialists have been able to reduce the running and maintenance costs by up to three quarters, with a substantial improvement in reliability. Up until very recently Novator continued to provide the Chinese with various maintenance services for the previously supplied hardware, and to supply at very short notice the entire range of spare parts for the N001 radar, as well as repair and maintenance equipment for that radar and its individual components (products N001-22M, N001-22MSE, N019-02A, N019-09A, etc). It also continued to train Chinese maintenance specialists, sharing the know-how for repairing the radar’s microwave modules (including cases which were previously thought to be beyond repair).

The Lviv-based Elektron Television Technology Plant (part of the Elektron Concern) has supplied China Taly Aviation Technologies Corp. with various TV guidance components for air-to-surface missiles; display and targeting systems used on Su-30 aircraft; and the T-1 and T-2 diagnostic kits.7

The Kharkiv-based Ukrprom continued to sell the 36Sh-01 optical locator systems to China National Friend Industry Corporation in 2008, using Ukrinmash as an intermediary. The product was described as “a device for gathering and processing various piloting and navigation parameters, and transmitting such data to various systems on a range of aircraft, including Su-27, Il-86, Il-96 and An-22”.8 It is well known, however, that the system has been installed only on Su-27 fighters; the other planes listed in the product description – including civilian models – are just a cover story.

The Kiev-based RADAR company has been supplying the Chinese with Product Osminog-E almost every year since 2006. The product is an anti-submarine detection and targeting system used on the Ka-28 helicopter. Sales have been channeled via Spetstekhnoexport; the buyer is the Shenyang-based China North-East International Trade Corporation.9

In 2005 China’s NORINCO bought from the Lviv Radio Technology Research Institute engineering designs for the manufacture of a 3mm band homing head for an air-to-air missile. The designs were on electronic and paper media (weighing over 20kg). The deal, in which a subsidiary of Promoboronexport acted as an intermediary, was worth about 1m dollars.

Naturally, this list of Ukrainian-Chinese deals in the civilian and military aerospace segments is far from complete.

Financial and legal aspects of cooperation


In December 2010 Ukrspetsexport reported record annual sales of 975.7m dollars. Sales to China also hit a record of 130m dollars (about 14 per cent of the total), placing the country firmly at the top of the list of 74 Ukrainian defense customers and partners.11 In 2011 Ukrspetsexport reported sales of about 1bn dollars; the figure remained roughly unchanged in 2012.12

During the latest (6th) sitting of the Intergovernmental Commission held in August 2010 in Beijing, the press service of Ukraine’s Industrial Policy Ministry said it hoped that bilateral trade in military hardware and services would reach 1.2bn dollars over the following three years. The accumulated figure for Ukrainian-Chinese arms imports/exports for the past eight years is 1.5bn dollars.12 In 2011 China became Ukraine’s third-largest trading partner, accounting for 3.2 per cent of Ukrainian exports and 7.5 per cent of imports. The trend continued into 2012, with Ukrainian exports to China falling by almost one-fifth to 1.78bn dollars, and imports growing by 26 per cent to 7.9bn dollars. These figures by the Ukrainian statistics agency suggest that arms trade with China will fall well below the three-year target set by the Industrial Policy Ministry; it will barely reach 600m dollars.

Problems also remain with the legal framework. The Ukrainian Cabinet of Ministers has approached the Chinese government with a proposal to sign an intergovernmental agreement on cooperation between the two countries’ defense industry companies. But the Chinese said that they saw no need for such an agreement because the documents that have already been signed have created adequate legal framework for bilateral defense industry cooperation. They added that the existing intergovernmental coordination commission on arms trade was working to a good effect, making the necessary adjustments when the need arises, and resolving various problems.

In addition, Chinese defense industry companies are not allowed to establish direct cooperation ties with foreign companies, firms and individuals. Only certain Chinese companies and corporations authorized by the Chinese State Council have the right to conduct negotiations in this area, exchange R&D information, and import or export military and dual-use technology. That is one of the reasons why, against all Ukrainian hopes, a program of military and technical cooperation with China has yet to be signed. There have also been long delays with the preparation of a joint declaration on defense industry cooperation in third countries’ markets, and with a program to establish an investment fund for joint projects. The Ukrainian partner in the latter project was TASKO Export, another Ukrspetsexport subsidiary.

Ukraine has made a serious strategic error by allowing Beijing to acquire its defense technologies and launch production in China itself. With the existing Ukrainian policy on high-tech industries, China will not remain the country’s defense customer for too long. In a few years’ time it will have acquired sufficient know-how to make the involvement of Ukrainian partners redundant.

subhamoy.das
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Postby subhamoy.das » 02 May 2013 19:28

The hall mark of UPA is to appeasement on all crisis in the name of peace! There is no response to any crisis be economic, financial or social. The citizens are also to be blamed for putting these lame ducks in for 10 years. We will appease till public back lash happens and then it will take a step which will be too late. I wish IA rebells and takes strong tactincal action on the ground.


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