LCA News and Discussions

krish.pf · Post by **krish.pf** » 09 Mar 2011 12:44

We were the first non-warsaw pact country to get the -29s. I dunno if the Mig-29Bs have been upgraded with N-019M(E) Topaz in the 90s, but what we got originally was the N-019EB Radar. This radar, is furthur downgraded than the N-019EA radars which went to the warsaw pact countries. This is the same radar which were on the Iraqi -29s which got shot down during the gulf war. Anyway, the stats on this EB radar is-

385kgs
Lacked Laszlo datalink
Furthur reduced(cmompared to EA) IFF and ECM capabilities
Detection 50-70km for 3sq
Tracking 40-60km for 3sq
Detection 40-70km for 3sq, if Target is below 3000m
Tracking 30-60km for 3sq, if Target is below 3000m
Only a single target can be engaged.

The detection and tracking are the same even on the non export variant. The downgrade was carried out on IFF, ECM, Radar Modes & etc, not on the range.

no disagreement and that is possible. but even if i take the standard russian version the ranges mentioned are 50-70km for detection and 40-60km for tracking!!! which means you can only fire at ranges below 60km in the best case scenario.

The detection and tracking range are for 3sqm targets. None of the paki fighters come with a low 3sqm RCS when it's combat ready & loaded. So those ranges are not the best case scenario.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 09 Mar 2011 12:57

To be honest, we got watered down Soviet stuff and Pakistanis got watered down American stuff (Remember the J79 powered F-16 proposed by Jimmy Carter?). Americans never gave AIM-7 Sparrow to Pakis even when Soviet planes crossed their airspace to bomb camps.

However, because the Russians trusted us, since our interests were too wide apart for any conflict of interest, they watered our stuff less than others. Also because we used their stuff quite effectively, they were suitably impressed.

So to use a BR term, we were equal-equal in those days. Today, free market rules!

Merlin, yes, while Prithvi propulsion is marginally better than Scud, the guidance is miles ahead! As i said, a good case of using available means for achiving better capabilities.

krish.pf · Post by **krish.pf** » 09 Mar 2011 13:20

Yeah. We were lucky in those days. We payed for this stuff with Rupees, tea, wheat and what not, to the Soviets, while the paksitanis got soyabeens for their foreign exchange instead of F-16s. lol

I only wish we have shot down an F-16 during the Kargil war with the -29. We were so close. Damn!! I still have the ACIG post by the paki insider-

I have been out of the PAF for a few years now- and in some respects have as much access to sources now as some civvie aviation fanatics- but still do retain contacts which give me the inside scoop sometimes. Here's my unbiased opinion on what happened in this incident. First some disclaimers- the IAF NEVER gave Chibber a big gallantry award- this was a routine award for a job well done- like an Air Medal in the USAF- not an award in the league of a Medal of Honor or DFC! Secondly, in this particular occasion, the PAF was bested- there, I said it- there's no shame in it- there have been many occasions in the past conflicts of 1965 and 1971 when it was the other way around- any professional pilot will tell you that success and failure are two sides of the same coin- anyone who claims to be invincible is lying or an adolescent amatuer masquerading as a professional. To lay this story to rest- and though the PAF is understandably not keen to trumpet it around town- those in the know know- lets keep it at that, so I'm not exactly revealing any state secrets.

The PAF in Kargil was NEVER tasked to aggressively counter the IAF (forget the crap about them being scared)- it was very much an Army (read Musharraf) show- with even the civilian leadership in the dark about some aspects. Our friendly neighborhood tinpot dictator (Musharraf) then looked for scrapegoats- so he got rid of Nawaz and then turned on the PAF for not doing its job (bullshit!!!) by firing much of its top brass recently. Forgive me for digressing, but as someone who dedicated his life to the service of Pakistan, I hate to see it falling back into dictatorship. But the key message is- the PAF was never under orders to engage the IAF, unless they crossed the LOC. On this occasion, I gather the Indian MiG-27s did cross the LOC briefly and the local NLI commander who was having the crap bombed out of him called in desparately for support- the PAF, which had been frustrated at having to sit it out till now, saw an opportunity to bloody the IAF nose as they were reported to have crossed the LOC. Two Falcons on alert were vectored into the MiGs, but received the jolt of their lives when an IAF MiG-29 locked onto BOTH of them (to answer the ongoing debate I see on this aspect of the IAF Mig-29s capability). They tried to break lock- but the MiG persisted, and while I do agree they could have pressed home- there were some controlling factors:
1) strict orders not to cross the LOC
2) Hell, they thought they were about to get a salvo of R-27s up their noses...as an aside, one of the Falcon pilots was a greenhorn and was pretty shaken by this experience- got razzed to death for weeks afterwards.

What would have happened if the Falcons had pressed home- who knows???? The MiG had a definite BVR edge and in close combat with the R-73/HMS, all bets are off. Plus, if the Falcons did cross the LOC, they would have been fair game to any other MiG-29s lurking about as they would no longer be over friendly terriotory- sometimes discretion is the better part of valour, n'est c'est pas?

ahh.. those were the days.

---

Got carried away. Sorry for the OT post.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 09 Mar 2011 13:26

tsarkar wrote:Anyway, discussing weight is a moot point, the relevant point was that we were following the very aggressive American design philosophy. Compare that to Dr Kalam setting modest goals for Prithvi to build designer confidence. All three services jumped for Prithvi.

As usual wrong.

Prithvi Project was definitely to be inducted project. When I was doing the Prithvi Missile Story, I was told this specifically. DRDO had asked MoD if the project will meet the fate of Project Devil, Valient and ATGM.

Army (and a section of MoD) first hesitated. It wanted to know is it could be imported. But, as govt had assured the induction, they were overruled. Beside, the services were fighting over the control. IAF wanted it to be in its control as its a long distance flier. IA - IAF tussel ensured its induction.

ks_sachin wrote: Chako you are a journalist. I was a journalist. At the outset let me congratulate you on the work you are doing..You are a few of the posters i read.......es and form my opinions......which I shall keep to myself.....(this was a cardinal rule I was taught as a journalist when I joined the profession)

Yes I read what you had said once. You said that you left Bangalore and journalism when things were hotting up. Thanks for the trust. LCA along with Arjun and George W Bush is very volatile subject. People have extreme opinions about them. Besides, some attitudes on these projects is so imbibed, that a generation of people have to stop existing before the positiviness and hopfullness can be brought in. Hence, I am working on some active journalism. I do not end up in passive journalism as it negates the very reason why I took this career changing descision of mine. Thanks Again.

negi · Post by **negi** » 09 Mar 2011 14:23

tsarkar wrote:Edited much later - IAF MiG29s were never wired for R77

TSarkar ji are you sure about this ?

Jagman where is that picture of IAF Mig-29 armed with R-77 ?

At this point in time I only have BHarry's article in ACIG handy

http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_236.shtml

It is now confirmed that all MiG-29s of the IAF are R-77 capable.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 09 Mar 2011 14:47

tsarkar; great posts, and don't mind people who use personal nastiness as a excuse for the fairly poor knowledge base.

Kudos for maintaining a great line and length, if I may say so.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 09 Mar 2011 15:02

Ummm, the lugs are common, so no problem attaching it to the pylon, however the pylon data interface and mating the datalink to the radar is the key. FWIW, I have not seen even Russian 9.12 with R77. From the manufacturer http://migavia.ru/eng/military_e/MiG_29_UB_e.htm I'm quite interested in seeing the picture, if you could point me to it.

negi · Post by **negi** » 09 Mar 2011 15:21

TSarkar I don't have the picture, this is what I could find by googling.

uploaded by Aditya from keypub.

http://img191.imageshack.us/i/idraams.jpg/

Have to admit some of the stuff is questionable but as far as R-77 on Mig-29 is concerned even Harry has it on ACIG.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 09 Mar 2011 15:40

Mig-29 being hardwired to fire the R-77 sometime in late 90's is a big mystery , it seems it was via PAF chief in an interview that the general world got aware of this capability.

Those news of R-77/R-27 integrated with M2K and Mig-29 with Super 530D BVR is just not true , they just managed to intergate the R-73/Magic with M2K/29.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 09 Mar 2011 15:43

Unless its psych-ops to scare the Pakis, it doesnt make sense. R77 without datalink is a 15 km ranged missile. No one would use an expensive missile w/o datalink. Modifying those old radars, that were not software defined, would have been a major pain, that too without OEM support.

When George Fernandes inducted MKI in 2002 at Pune, air dominance was emphasized for the first time because of the high loadout, multi target tracking of software defined Bars, and the long ranged R-77 via datalink. Even Su-30K could not employ R-77. I doubt any Indian aircraft before MKI and Bison could employ R77.

Added Later - Look at the pain to integrate R-73E with Tejas, and the decision to go ahead with Python 5 in Mk2

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 09 Mar 2011 15:56

tsarkar wrote:Unless its psych-ops to scare the Pakis, it doesnt make sense. R77 without datalink is a 15 km ranged missile. No one would use an expensive missile w/o datalink. Modifying those old radars, that were not software defined, would have been a major pain, that too without OEM support.

Tsarkar Sir , From what I did read long time back and this is from memory , they did that upgrade covertly to give the Mig-29 a BVR capability against the F-16 , the capability allowed them to fire a single BVR R-77 missile and the radar/data link was modified for it.

After all how do the old Mig-29 fire the R-27 without a datalink update provided to the missile in mid course and then terminal guidance for SARH via aircraft radar ?

Added Later - Look at the pain to integrate R-73E with Tejas, and the decision to go ahead with Python 5 in Mk2

They probably went for Python 5 it is because its a far more capable missile compared to R-73E if not in range atleast the seeker/eccm capability is superior.

If they could integrate R-73 with M2K without the OEM support , then integrating it with LCA with OEM support and based on IAF needs is not a problem.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 09 Mar 2011 16:12

I think part of our Mig29 fleet called Mig29S has the R77 firing capability.

karan_mc · Post by **karan_mc** » 09 Mar 2011 16:15

If i remember correctly Hal carried out local upgrades to Mig-29 to enable it to fire R-77 missiles in early 1997-99 time frame

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 09 Mar 2011 16:45

The first Indian R77 orders was in 1996 as a part of Bison and MKI packages. I have always seen MiG29 & Su-30K with R-27 only. Integration is not technically impossible, just a tad bit complex. Anyway, would have been good to see a picture.

Are there pictures of R-73 on Mirage? The missile quantities are barely sufficient for their base birds, I wonder where does the surplus rounds comes for integration and testing with other birds.

The only "cross polination" I know was Magic on MiG-21 because of the small warhead & small ranged R60. Even that wasnt standard loadout.

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 09 Mar 2011 17:29

Singha wrote:I think part of our Mig29 fleet called Mig29S has the R77 firing capability.

That's what I remember reading too, its the MiG 29S/C which have the capability.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 09 Mar 2011 17:34

tsarkar wrote: Are there pictures of R-73 on Mirage? The missile quantities are barely sufficient for their base birds, I wonder where does the surplus rounds comes for integration and testing with other birds.

Is this openly available information or are you privy to special information on missile stocks with the IAF? The Tejas seems to have tested two and been flown with more. The Su-30 has been shown off firing R-73s in Vayu Shakti.

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 09 Mar 2011 17:38

According to this article from Igorr, its happening with the Mig-29UPG program:

http://igorrgroup.blogspot.com/2011/02/ ... ailes.html

The weapon: RVV-AE, R-73E, R-27R1/R-27T1, R-27ER1/R-27ET1, Kh-29T/L, Kh-31A/P, Kh-35, KAB-500KR/OD/L, unguided bombs 50-500 kg, S-24B, S-8 unguided rockets.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 09 Mar 2011 18:12

IIRC, A CAG report had criticised r-77 and r-73 and mentioned that India has a good stockpile of it. Can someone dig that out? or was it r-27?

vina · Post by **vina** » 09 Mar 2011 18:22

r-27

Alright folks, lets get back to the regular LCA programming. But if ever there was a dud missile , it must be the R-27. In the Eritrea-Ethiopia conflicts, the Mig 29s and Su-27s flown by mercenary pilots on both sides fired a couple of dozen R-27s each at each other and registered next to no hits and I think zero kills. A total waste.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 09 Mar 2011 18:26

@ shiv, Yes & No.

Missile shelf life varies from x flight hours to y years in storage. Typically, missiles are procured based on z missiles per aircraft over the y years lifetime of the missiles. New missiles are ordered based on life expiry of old missiles. Missile stocks are used up over the lifetime.

Now given 300 MiG21 in service in the last decade, the significant quantity of Matra Magic ordered for them would have been reflected in Matra/MBDA orderbooks & financial results, and it didn’t. The only orders reported were sufficient for Harrier, Mirage and Jaguar. Note that missile life is expiring, Harrier has been retired, MBDA is pitching ASRAAM for Jaguar and MICA for Mirage. In the absence of significant Magic orders other than those tallying for the three birds, I conclude the missile was never significantly deployed on MiG-21, just 1 or 2 tested.

Note that we’re seeing less & less R-60s, even on un-upgraded MiG21s, because those missiles too are life expiring.
Same goes for R-77 & R-73, the late 90’s orders were sufficient for the approx 100 Su-30MKI + 120 odd Bison in service from 2000-2010. Had MiG-29 used R-77 or R-73, we would have seen incremental missile orders in that decade that we don’t. 10 missiles for Tejas testing and captive trials can come from existing stocks. Exercise firings are part of budgeted expenditure.

vina · Post by **vina** » 09 Mar 2011 18:31

tsarkar wrote:I conclude the missile was never significantly deployed on MiG-21, just 1 or 2 tested..

Simply not true. The PN Atlantique was brought down over the Rann of Kutch by a Mig-21 firing a Magic II! The Magic II integrated on the Mig-21 saw operational service.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 09 Mar 2011 18:40

vina wrote:
tsarkar wrote:I conclude the missile was never significantly deployed on MiG-21, just 1 or 2 tested..
Simply not true. The PN Atlantique was brought down over the Rann of Kutch by a Mig-21 firing a Magic II! The Magic II integrated on the Mig-21 saw operational service.

Are you sure? For the BR article here

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Histo ... tique.html

says it was R-60.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 09 Mar 2011 22:52

Hi-tech & Indian - Tejas, the indigenously built Light Combat Aircraft, is going places
T.S. SUBRAMANIAN

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 09 Mar 2011 23:40

^

In a year or so, the GTRE and Snecma (French manufacturer of civil and military aircraft engines) will start working jointly on Kaveri, and the engine will reach final development in about five years. There are plans to integrate the engine with Tejas to evaluate and validate Kaveri's design. “This will give us the confidence to work with Snecma,” said Subramanyam.

confusion onlee.. on this partnership need

vic · Post by **vic** » 10 Mar 2011 09:26

The ADA is working on it and hopes to have a test flight in December 2014 and begin production in mid-2016.

What does this line mean? Does it mean that mark-2 will start rolling off the assembly line from Mid-2016 or that they will "start" producing LCA MK-2 from 2016 and it will start rolling off the production line in 2018??????

In any case, F414 will be adequate for production run of 5-10 years and if more LCA are ordered then I think Kaveri-JV can be integrated.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 Mar 2011 19:59

tejas night flights are continuing..one just took off.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 15 Mar 2011 13:42

CJ ji any news on LSP7 & 8 ? If not anything else

some update on the number of flight tests

Last known
LCA-Tejas has completed 1582 Test Flights successfully. (23-Feb-2011).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-203,PV3-270,LSP1-62,LSP2-166,PV5-26,LSP3-31,LSP4-33,LSP5-11)

to

LCA-Tejas has completed 1599 Test Flights successfully. (11-Mar-2011).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-204,PV3-272,LSP1-63,LSP2-169,PV5-28,LSP3-35,LSP4-34,LSP5-14)

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 15 Mar 2011 20:21

Those Chitradurg bomb trials were with dumb bombs.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 16 Mar 2011 03:39

Viz-a-viz discussion on use of Russian and Western missile types on Mirage-2000H and Baaz; only 'proof' that we have are IDR article and BHarry comments that are already posted in the thread. We also had posts by retd Flt Lt Samar Shah in AFM forum in 2001/2002 claiming R-27 integration on Mirage-2000H and Super 530D integration with MiG-29.

However, IAF has never displayed such configuration publicly. Even, if they had - would it suffice as evidence? Doubt so. Nevertheless I have no reason to believe it was not done.

Tsarkar's debate on whether the missiles were actually deployed with squadrons is interesting one. Very few - even in Air Force -are privy to 'state of affairs' on ground. For example; the Matra missile stocks with our Chetak squadrons were over with expired TTL in 1990s. But we still retained them as 'anti tank' squadrons.

My point is that there are no concrete answers to questions related to armaments - from dumb bombs to LGBs.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 16 Mar 2011 08:06

Perhaps use of such configuration would make everyone believe. Video is the only option from delivery to target destruction.

Even, then someone may find arguments that parameters doesn't substantiate the actual configuration. Either believe the configuration or configure to make believable, is all within our plausible choices.

Of course, I am not talking anything about paki inflatable F16s here.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 16 Mar 2011 09:39

suryag wrote:CJ ji any news on LSP7 & 8 ? If not anything else some update on the number of flight tests

Last known LSP5-14)

Something is coming up. Will keep updated as soon as it happens.

Hiten · Post by **Hiten** » 16 Mar 2011 10:09

Has the angle of attack the LCA has been tested to known in the public domain?

if not, then in the Gripen flight testing video, one of the questions asked by the audience was if the Gripen had experience with testing the aircraft at 28 degrees [replied that the Gripen has been tested up to 80 degrees] - could this be any indicator of the AoA the LCA has been tested to so far?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXKvNe2VWt4

---------------------------
Update:
okay, found it. The good Colonel had indeed spoken about the alpha

The Tejas has currently tested an Alpha of just 22-24 degrees, and will go up gradually to 28 degrees.

http://www.business-standard.com/india/ ... al/400393/

no revelations here then

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 16 Mar 2011 10:13

there were one (or maybe two) night flights of tejas yesterday around 7.45pm and 8.30pm. the 1st could have been a jaguar based on engine note.
so night flight testing (incl weapons drop at night) are likely ongoing...

Jaeger · Post by **Jaeger** » 16 Mar 2011 11:06

Saw the trainer on landing approach from over Koramangala this morning ~10.40am. Cockpit 'hump' was quite distinctive.

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 16 Mar 2011 16:23

Hears the LCA last night and saw the trainer? landing forenoon today. Everything seems to be under wraps.

Bharadwaj · Post by **Bharadwaj** » 16 Mar 2011 19:17

Another night flight....

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 16 Mar 2011 19:59

yes around 8.30pm seems to be the usual departure slot.

vina · Post by **vina** » 16 Mar 2011 20:03

Yes . 20:30 seems right. I thought I heard two just a few minutes back.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 17 Mar 2011 08:29

Wiring schemes to be enhanced on lca mk2
Ignis Aerospace Partners With Lectromec, Radel On Aircraft Wiring

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 18 Mar 2011 14:49

In the meanwhile, the LCA flies day and night,
Increasing daily our enemies fright,
With a roar of thunder and a radiant release of wares,
A suandron will soon form so enemies beware!

Poor attempt at poetry.