LCA News and Discussions

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tushar_m

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby tushar_m » 04 Apr 2011 10:49

the lca mk1 is tested for all the tech specks in say 2-3 years get FOC & start productions in say 2015
so since LCA mk2 will have similar airframe & electronics (all basic parts same except maybe kaveri & radar ) then it won't take LCA mk2 to take another 4-5 years for IOC/FOC since majority of tests will be completed on the similar platform of LCA MK1.

LCA mk2 with enhanced capability could go into production in say 2015-16 time frame

does LCA mk2 will have 2 get through all the tests LCA mk1 go through :?:

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby nits » 04 Apr 2011 11:13

tushar_m wrote:does LCA mk2 will have 2 get through all the tests LCA mk1 go through :?:


Your Q is answered below - P Subramanyam, director of the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), which is developing the LCA and the AMCA


Brushing aside apprehension of further delay of the kind that has dogged the Tejas programme, Subramanyam insists, “Our design timeline is realistic. The main sub-systems of the Tejas Mark-II will remain unchanged, except for electronics components. So, the Mark-II will not need extensive flight-testing, as most of its sub-systems will have already been test-flown on the Mark-I.”

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Sagar G » 04 Apr 2011 14:23

Designers insist Tejas will belie all sceptical questioning

With the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) entering service with Indian Air Force squadrons, the designers of this indigenous fighter have explained why they believe this will be the world’s premier light fighter.

The Tejas Mark II, which will be developed by 2014 and roll off production lines by 2018, will perform 40 per cent better than the current fighter. After which would come the ultra-modern Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft, the AMCA, which the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) says will be a “fifth-generation plus” fighter, more formidable than anything flying today.

In an exclusive interview with Business Standard, P Subramanyam, the director of the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), which is developing the LCA and the AMCA, responded to IAF criticism that the Tejas was not yet a world-class fighter. He pointed out that the Tejas Mark I, still being flight-tested, had been flown to just 85 per cent of its full capability. The Tejas Mark II --- in which a more powerful GE-414 engine will replace the current GE-404 engine --- would perform another 15 per cent better.

“The Tejas Mark I will expand its performance envelope to its full capability by end-2012. And a major performance boost will come from the Tejas Mark II’s new GE-414 engine, which we have signed a US $700 million (Rs 3,135 crore) contract to build here in India. The Mark II will outperform the Mark I by about 15 per cent in the key aspects of take-off run, rate of climb, acceleration, and turn rate. Most of this would come from the higher thrust of the GE-414 engine. Another 2-3 per cent benefit would come from better aerodynamics… since we will re-engineer the fighter to accommodate the new engine. That overall 35-40 per cent improvement would make the LCA the world’s premier light fighter,” says Subramanyam.

The Tejas Mark I is scheduled to obtain Final Operational Clearance by end-2012. A fighter is granted FOC when ready for combat missions, with all its weapons and sensors fitted, integrated and tested. The IAF worries that the Tejas, already long delayed, might not obtain its FOC on schedule.

Meanwhile, ADA designers are working on the Tejas Mk 2, which Subramanyam says will fly by 2014, enter production by 2016, and obtain FOC by 2018. “Besides re-designing the airframe to accommodate the GE-414 engine, ADA will also grab the opportunity to upgrade key electronics --- especially the flight control computer and some avionics --- so that the Tejas Mark II is a cutting-edge fighter when it enters service”, explains the ADA chief.

“No fancy plan”

Brushing aside apprehension of further delay of the kind that has dogged the Tejas programme, Subramanyam insists, “Our design timeline is realistic. The main sub-systems of the Tejas Mark II will remain unchanged except for electronics components. So the Mark II will not need extensive flight-testing because most of its sub-systems will have already been test-flown on the Mark I.”

ADA designers also say that the “maintainability” of the Tejas has already been established. This key attribute relates to how quickly and easily technicians can service and repair the fighter and, therefore, how quickly it can get out of the hangar and into combat. Out of 200 “requests for action” --- which are suggestions from IAF pilots and technicians for design changes that would ease maintenance --- most have already been implemented. Just 12-15 remain for implementing in the Tejas Mark II.

The Tejas programme will provide the springboard for the ADA’s next project, which will be a more heavily armed and capable fighter. Even as Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd and Russian aerospace giant, Sukhoi, jointly develop the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA), ADA will go it alone in developing an Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft. The DRDO’s R&D chief, Prahlada, has told Business Standard that the AMCA will have features more advanced than current fifth-generation fighters. That means that the AMCA will be technologically ahead of the FGFA when it enters service at the end of this decade.

Asked whether that might be over-ambitious, Prahlada, retorts, “When we had begun the LCA programme, people asked the same question. They thought we would not be able to build a fighter with composite materials, and with an unstable aerodynamic configuration. The Tejas has proved them wrong. Today we say we will build a fighter that is better than Gen-5. And the sceptics will be proven wrong again.”
(Hell yeah :twisted: )

As Business Standard earlier reported, Rs 10,397 crore have been sanctioned for developing the Tejas Mk 2 for the IAF; and another Rs 3,650 crore for the naval Tejas, which would operate off aircraft carriers. Subramanyam points out that this total expenditure of Rs 14,047 crore would be amortised over 200 Tejas fighters, at about Rs 70 crore per aircraft. This projected order includes two squadrons (40 fighters) of LCA Mk 1 that the IAF has already ordered; and an expected 5 squadrons (100 fighters) of LCA Mk 2; and another 2-3 squadrons (40-60 fighters) for the navy.

In addition, the manufacturing cost of the IAF Tejas is projected at Rs 180-200 crore and that of the naval version at Rs 190-210 crore.


Article deserves to be posted in full. Look what Tejas has done to the confidence of our scientists and engineers now I'm confident that our 5th gen plane is going to be a world beater.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 04 Apr 2011 17:22

Sagar G wrote:
Designers insist Tejas will belie all sceptical questioning
  • .. in which a more powerful GE-414 engine will replace the current GE-404 engine --- would perform another 15 per cent better in the key aspects of take-off run, rate of climb, acceleration, and turn rate.
  • Another 2-3 per cent benefit would come from better aerodynamics… since we will re-engineer the fighter to accommodate the new engine.
  • “Besides re-designing the airframe to accommodate the GE-414 engine, ADA will also grab the opportunity to upgrade key electronics --- especially the flight control computer and some avionics --- so that the Tejas Mark II is a cutting-edge fighter when it enters service.
  • The “maintainability” of the Tejas has already been established. This key attribute relates to how quickly and easily technicians can service and repair the fighter and, therefore, how quickly it can get out of the hangar and into combat.

    That overall 35-40 per cent improvement would make the LCA the world’s premier light fighter.

We need to dig more here from a jingo-detailed context how the 35-40% performance boost happens. I guess that would need many BRperts know how.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby suryag » 04 Apr 2011 20:00

^^^ Confidence apart, where are lsp7 and 8 ? It is one thing to design and another thing to get it into serial production successfully. Let us not lose the match in the last five overs. Someone who is a regular tea shop visitor should find out news on 7,8 or NP1 first flight

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby NRao » 04 Apr 2011 20:57

Mar 18, 2011 :: LSP 7 & 8

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-tflQ8CIjaew/T ... /LSP-7.jpg

that aircraft is the LSP-7, nearing completion at HAL. The fighter will soon be handed over to the IAF (and later LSP-8 as well) for user evaluation.


They will come when they come.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby suryag » 04 Apr 2011 21:10

Sirjee that is from Feb 18. That aircraft easily looks 3-4 months away from first flight ? Anyways it was supposed to be provided to the force by March-April now i dont think that is possible. Anyways as has been said so many times in this thread "they will come when they come" until then whines only

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby NRao » 04 Apr 2011 21:25

I recall similar whining when the MKI was being developed. One crashed in the UK and that had an impact. Leading edge stuff are always "when they come", specially something this complicated.

Whine. No problem. But, do not let the BP get too high. Not worth it.

(BTW, the last time I said LCA is a tech demo I was hacked. But when the MKII comes out (yes, when it does), we will see this model as such. BUT, the LCA is a great teaching experience. Knowing that alone I sleep very well. JMTs.)

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Sid » 04 Apr 2011 22:17

I think tall claims like AMCA will be superior to anything flying, esp FGFA, are not funny anymore.

Thier good wrok will do all the PR stunts for them.

One news release like LCA SP1 delivered ahead of schedule will undo most of the negetivity surrpunding DRDO.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby manum » 04 Apr 2011 22:31

Definitely they are not learning...I guess its because there is still not much to loose for these scientific folks...
given MRCA coming and FGFA...it has taken pressure and spot light off em...LCA team is now worried about PR to impress BRF...because IAF is surely not going to get impressed by lip service...

seemingly IAF is tired about the same thing each time...

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby VishalJ » 05 Apr 2011 13:27


nits
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby nits » 05 Apr 2011 13:49

manum wrote:Definitely they are not learning...I guess its because there is still not much to loose for these scientific folks...
given MRCA coming and FGFA...it has taken pressure and spot light off em...LCA team is now worried about PR to impress BRF...because IAF is surely not going to get impressed by lip service...

seemingly IAF is tired about the same thing each time...


Impress BRF...??? why ? BR is not going to order them couple of LCA's if BRF get impressed. The kind of work they are doing is complex and there is no room for error... and they are doing it for the first time...

I know they need to deliver much more but same time we need to trust them much more...

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby manum » 05 Apr 2011 14:03

well i didnt mean BRF "BRF" i used it to signify a bunch of jingo's eager for LCA...
Everyone understands all that, but there is a time when you stop letting it to be an excuse...We are ready for it to be delayed a bit further "courtesy to many older folks who waited for a decade and trusted the development"

so we are nobody to not wait for few more years...but claims about AMCA is bit above the head and annoying in this context...
The kind of work they are doing was never going to be "not complex" then why give dead lines...let it be complex since forever...

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby P Chitkara » 05 Apr 2011 14:14

We keep on forgetting a couple of things while asking a speed up of the process.

    This is our first attempt at a contemporary fighter - lack of past experience
    Processes are not yet fully mature
    Any major failure/incidence was/is just not an option - overcautious maybe, safe definetly

The actual speed up may, just may be seen in the MK2.

WRT AMCA, by the time we reach the PV phase, all of this will already have been done - hence the confidence.

As usual - JMT.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Vivek K » 05 Apr 2011 18:52

The slow speed of development is perhaps a pointer to the lack of industrial capability more than lack of scientific ability. That may go away with time and perseverance.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby ramana » 05 Apr 2011 20:47

SaiK wrote:Would have to be tried at various speed levels as well right, and in all direction of the wind. But as long as the aircraft does not lose sudden altitude it should be safe as gravity + aircraft direction should keep it away from contact after release. Apart from clean separation, what would be the condition when the tank can come in contact again within seconds?


They would have done many CFD simulations and chose the most critical ones to test out. This avoids all those expensive trial runs.

The thing of concern is after the stores are released, due to airspeed and lack of weight (partial fuel tanks etc.), they devleop lift and could do a kalidas manouver.

AIAA monogrpahs on CFD show this phenomena very clearly.

Please to visit a good uty library.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 05 Apr 2011 20:56

thanks ramana. gotcha.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby suryag » 05 Apr 2011 21:54

From
LCA-Tejas has completed 1620 Test Flights successfully. (31-Mar-2011).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-205,PV3-272,LSP1-65,LSP2-172,PV5-32,LSP3-38,LSP4-35,LSP5-21)

to
LCA-Tejas has completed 1623 Test Flights successfully. 01-Apr-2011).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-205,PV3-272,LSP1-65,LSP2-173,PV5-33,LSP3-39,LSP4-35,LSP5-21)

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 06 Apr 2011 08:17

Only in January HAL/ADAs LCA (Light Combat Aircraft) ‘Tejas’ was given IOC-acceptance by the IAF, paving the way for the first 100 examples of ‘Tejas’ Mk1 with the GE404 engine. The design dates back to 1990 in an attempt to replace the 100s of obsolete MiG-21s, but its first flight was delayed until 2001. And it needed until 2008 for the first flight of a production-version. Now a much improved Mk2 as well as a naval two-seater are announced for 2014, powered by the G414. The EJ-200 powerplant was not selected. While GpCpt Krishna put the PV2-prototype through its paces, it was explained that ‘Tejas’ would carry almost 60% of its empty 7-ton weight as ordnance, a figure unmatched by any modern aircraft. The tail-less delta-wing is called the smallest modern combat-aircraft and features (or will partly feature) quadruplex digital fly-by-wire control system, an advanced fully digital glass cockpit and would be multi-mission, all-weather capable. The radar is an ELTA EL/M-2032 multi-mode set.http://s188567700.online.de/CMS/index.p ... &Itemid=47

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby ramana » 06 Apr 2011 08:50

Saik, Google for Aircraft Stores separation Images.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby akimalik » 06 Apr 2011 09:58

ramana wrote:The thing of concern is after the stores are released, due to airspeed and lack of weight (partial fuel tanks etc.), they devleop lift and could do a kalidas manouver.


Hi Sir,

to counter/mitigate such risks, how feasible is it to use small control surfaces. These control surfaces normally would be such that they are "life-neutral". Only at the time of jettisoning these control surfaces would move such that they take the stores away from the a/c?

or have I over-simplified a problem :?:

Rgds,
a

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 06 Apr 2011 18:19

ramana, the one i found http://www.cscjournals.org/csc/manuscri ... JE-118.pdf on the first search.. perhaps I am yet to find something that says at t+0.2 secs (assumption) the front of the store is at the same level of the plane itself..(assuming the plane is not losing height). Now my question was, where is the complexity or risk that after the separation the possibility of an encounter with the mother a/c given the assumptions here. Perhaps the empty (near empty or vacuum?) the fuel tank flight characteristics are different, but it does have the same t+0.2sec description may be slightly driven by aerodynamic design of the tank. just a laid man question onlee.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Abhibhushan » 07 Apr 2011 11:11

Re separation of stores from (fighter) aircraft.

As long as stores are attached securely, problems of flying relate to drag/position of c-of-g, balance and trim etc. procedures and training can provide answers.

When stores are separated in flight, paths of the aircraft and the stores detached will diverge. The design authority has to ensure that the separation is clean under all circumstances. Light stores pose a problem as they might 'float' up and strike the aircraft. some stores also tend to 'tumble' on release.

Solutions provided include powered jettisoning using explosive cartridges, provision of small wing/tail section(s) on the stores body, or designing a stable aerodynamic shape with a natural diversion away from the parent aircraft.
Challenges in such designs are weight or drag penalty and a question of reliability if the solution becomes too complicated (as visualized by akimalik above)

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Arya Sumantra » 07 Apr 2011 13:46

relevant videos.



description of above in detail


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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Singha » 07 Apr 2011 15:33

OMG was it a deiberate test or accident ?

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Arya Sumantra » 07 Apr 2011 16:05

^^ They were testing the drop of 250 lb bum and it is a dummy bum and the chase plane, filming it got the surprise.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby shiv » 07 Apr 2011 17:50

Arya Sumantra wrote:relevant videos.




What is interesting in this video is the simple principle of what the wing does (produce lift) - it seems so obvious but also illustrates what can go wrong.

The starboard wing of the Skyhawk is chopped off and the moment that happens the port wing has a greater surface area and produces more lift compared with the chopped off wing. So the plane, that was banking to the left a monemt before the accident starts rolling violently to the right. Intuition would tell one that the left wing is heavier when the other wing is cut off and that it should go down :!: :D . It doesn't do that.

Also note - fuel from wing tanks and spark/flame possibly from the violent impact.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Singha » 07 Apr 2011 18:01

I guess they shifted to zoom lens after this episode. hope the pilots ejection worked out and he made it back in one piece.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 07 Apr 2011 18:38

it appears to me that the chase plane was asking for trouble staying behind and just below.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby shiv » 07 Apr 2011 18:44

SaiK wrote:it appears to me that the chase plane was asking for trouble staying behind and just below.


The guy seems to see it coming and tries to bank away - but gets hit nevertheless. Of course we are talking fate here and fate was being tempted. I just wonder if the thing would not have clipped the wing if he had not been banking away? Or if he had merely pushed his nose down? Easy for me to say after watching the slow motion video.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Luxtor » 07 Apr 2011 23:57

You guys notice why that bomb flew up like that when it was supposed to just drop down and drift back from loss of forward momentum? When the bomb come off the F-18 it still has some stuff attached to it; maybe some kind of brackets, test/measuring equipment etc. These attachments sticking into the air flow seems to have made the bomb actually climb up and move laterally to the left at the same time and hitting the chase plane. You can clearly see this in a close up shot in what looks like a camera on the F-18 recording the event.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Arya Sumantra » 08 Apr 2011 02:51

^^ According to one of the comments on the video the bum is not released but rather it's the pylon that broke off detached from the wing ! It does seem to be the case.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Luxtor » 08 Apr 2011 13:57

^^^

Ahhh, that explains it, bummer.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby paultd » 10 Apr 2011 21:04

IAF fighter aircraft to be equipped with special gadgets
http://iafnews.nuvodev.com/posts/iaf-fi ... l-gadgets/

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby saip » 10 Apr 2011 22:27

Singha wrote:I guess they shifted to zoom lens after this episode. hope the pilots ejection worked out and he made it back in one piece.


Here is the Discovery channel video of that incident. Both the pilots ejected and lived. Now there is minimum distance prescribed for the chase planes.

http://dsc.discovery.com/videos/destroy ... aster.html

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 11 Apr 2011 03:11

Interesting.. the discovery video says the test bomb was built with concrete!

mmm

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby krishnan » 11 Apr 2011 09:37

“Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) has started the ground integration process of OBOGS in the Technology Demonstrator (TD) version of the LCA Mark-II.


http://iafnews.nuvodev.com/posts/iaf-fi ... l-gadgets/

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby chackojoseph » 15 Apr 2011 16:21

we should send a LSP and drop a bomb on a Libyan Tank or two. I will allay any criticism that it is not battle tested. :|

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 16 Apr 2011 01:54

with a real high political cost? we can arrange more difficult dummy targets than libyan tanks, perhaps testing some of the longer ranged helinas (q: is that planned for tejas with multi-racks like brimstone on tornadoes?)

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Gilles » 16 Apr 2011 11:56

Sorry if this has already been posted:

Image

Tejas engine being flight tested
Last edited by Gilles on 17 Apr 2011 00:40, edited 1 time in total.


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