India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Part 2

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India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Part 2

Postby Rakesh » 12 May 2011 00:51

Please stick to the discussion on Rafale & Typhoon only. Nothing else.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby shiv » 12 May 2011 06:48

Not even Katrina? :mrgreen:

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby SaiK » 12 May 2011 08:19

Rakesh bhai, that was a preemptive strike when you closed the part 1 thread. Perhaps, you may want to open that part-1 as "Why India did not select .." or something to that effect, and rename part -2 thread back as MMRCA thread.

This thread from high bandwidth traffic has come down to zilch with your preemptive nukes. :twisted:

jmt :mrgreen:

--------

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Sri » 12 May 2011 09:45

Jai mata di... Let's Rock!!! Thankyou Rakesh Bhai. I too was feeling a little stupid getting caught up in a pointless argument...

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Juggi G » 12 May 2011 12:33

It's Smart Diplomacy
Image

Opinion » Edit Page

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Juggi G » 12 May 2011 12:36


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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Gurinder P » 12 May 2011 12:45



That link is seriously half in the bag. I really hate subscribing to websites for news; it should be public to begin with.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby VishalJ » 12 May 2011 12:48


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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Rakesh » 12 May 2011 20:19

SaiK wrote:Rakesh bhai, that was a preemptive strike when you closed the part 1 thread. Perhaps, you may want to open that part-1 as "Why India did not select .." or something to that effect, and rename part -2 thread back as MMRCA thread.

This thread from high bandwidth traffic has come down to zilch with your preemptive nukes. :twisted:

Sorry Saar...had to close the thread. A couple of guys derailed it with nonsense and the rest (me included!) jumped on the bandwagon to counter that. Makes you wonder whose side these guys are on! Please stick with the discussion at hand.

Vishal Jolapara: BEAUTIFUL SHOT! :)

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby k prasad » 13 May 2011 00:40

Aah well, I'm just happy that the Rafale has been shortlisted. I have from the beginning (2008-09) been a big supporter of the Rafale in this competition. IMO, it fits in really well with our operational doctrines and the kinds of roles that the IAF would look towards filling.

If we look at the history of this tender itself, it evolved from a Mig-21 replacement to a Mig-27 - Jaguar replacement. That in itself is a BIG leap, which changes the focus from A2A and CAP ops to true A2G and Deep Strike operations. This revaluation also points us towards the evolving thinking within the IAF about combat operations, something that I am happy about as well.

A few observations of mine / JMTC about the contract and how its going. (I'll probably talk about the shortlisted aircraft in another post):

1) Frenchies have ALWAYS said FULL ToT including source codes, no holdbacks, no downgrades (some upgrades in fact - one of the senior ppl at AI09 told me that while the RFP itself wasnt challenging, it did have some parts which would be upgrades). Moreover, the heartening part is that at AI11 they didnt seem too worried about the costs aspect. One of the reps I spoke to said that the would be able to provide the best deal, and that the sanctioned costs weren't a concern. The problem really is wrt what they see the cost as including.

2) The feeling I have gotten from the French has been that of quiet confidence in not just their baby, but also in their understanding of which strings to pull and when - notice how they only brought the Rafale at AI11.

3) Of course, my concern is equally about what we haven't heard from the French. Given how quiet they are, it concerns me as an outsider about the things they have NOT said. THey are consummate businessmen, and ally or not, we need to beware of snake-oil selling. Then again, they might just have told the guys who need to know, and not cared about us plebs :-D.

4) It was CRITICAL that the F-18 not make the downselect. Unlike what people would think that it should have made the downselect ("at least for strategic reasons") and then kicked out, that would've been impossible:

(a) Because it didnt do THAT well in the trials per reports. Pulling it along would've been a big mistake.
(b) Once the downselect happens, L1 rule takes over and technical aspects become almost unimportant. It is here that the F-18 might've been a dangerous prospect, since the numbers on order would mean a large chance of a low cost. And at that time, if we choose to bring in technical faults to overrule L1, it would've led to a big hue and cry, with a lot of legal problems and thus, delays.
(c) If it had made the downselect, given that the next steps are purely subjective negotiations and evaluations, and the MoD being as it is, imagine the kind of pressure and 'inducements' that US might've offered. Its a cleanliness factor. I respect AKA if he did take this decision.

Yes, I do love the F-18. Its the baby that got me hooked onto defence. Its the plane I'd want to fly if given a chance. But that doesn't mean we blind ourselves to the obvious faults and dangers of choosing it for so important a rule.

5) Its odd for the US to expect us to buy their fighters to push forward the "strategic partnership". A strategic partnership implies that it is beyond such technical or tactical things like fighter aircraft. What if we expect a quid pro quo, like stopping Pakistan aid, or helping us kill Dawood and gang? Have they forgotten the 8 bn $ of non-fighter military stuff we're buying from them?

At the end of the day, its stupid to have expected India to give the US some handicap on the basis of a hokey 'partnership' that they were selling. The standards for evaluation were the same.

6) With all due respect to Vishnu Som (and I do not want to resurrect a dead argument, just providing my view here), we don't have to give a rats backside about providing a comfortable experience to anyone. They CHOSE to participate and thus, accept the costs, risks and other peccadillos. Even IF we had already decided not to select an aircraft, it made sense for INDIA to take a much closer look at these aircraft and how they perform (its like the proposed-merger with Lau Industries in "THe Dark Knight". Even if we never were going to go ahead with it, taking a closer look at their books helps us):

a. Evaluating their performance and technology available, building detailed knowledge of possible tactics when we face against these aircraft, and building radar images of these aircraft.
b. Remember that the IAF still wasnt fully decided on its strategies or requirements. Looking at a larger choice group gave them a good opportunity to improve their own needs (its like how we look at EVERY mobile in the store to choose whether to buy one with a keypad or not).
c. The kind of interest this contract has brought in has definitely led to a lot of visibility for our defence industry, lot of contracts, and a lot more business. Many of the contenders have already signed offset agreements with local manufacturers, even if they haven't got the contract. They now know the Indian industry better. Coming to AI 3 times in a row might not have got Saab the contract, but it certainly made them take a much closer look at our local defence needs and industries.

It makes good sense for us on multiple counts. If it didnt make sense for the US at the end of it, why should we care?

7) Bill Sweetman at the AeroSeminar 2009 had thought that it did make much more sense for IAF to go in for twin engine medium weight aircrafts. His shortlist at that time I think was the two Eurocanards.

8) I'm still a bit intrigued by the way the select happened. The 'rejected' contenders have not been told that they haven't made the cut. Only the two 'shortlisted' aircraft have been asked to extend their bids. Which means that if a contender at any time decides to keep its offer open, GoI can go back to them and start negotiating. Its like a half-open door. My guess is that GOTUS will try serious backchannel offers on the F-18, with lots of mithai on offer.

9) Conformal arrays are really tough to develop and analyze - the french are doing good work on that front (a lecture on the future of Phased Arrays at AeroSem09 by a french guy had a good audience and some interesting stuff on conformal arrays). Either way, don't expect conformal arrays to even start augmenting planar arrays till 2020 at the very least.

10) There seems to be a big misconception among people about what 'technical' evaluation means. It doesnt simply mean evaluating only that stuff which can be ascribed a number, independent of all other factors.

It instead includes ALL the stuff which would influence how that aircraft would/could perform in the IAF ORBAT, in the role they expect it to play, against the opponents they expect to field it against, in the theatre and locations they might be facing them in, and their effectiveness at other times - availability of spares, commonality, ease of maintenance, etc.

Which means CISMOA, spares availability, sanctions etc etc would end up being factors. These might've been assigned perceptional values or given detailed qualitative evaluations by the IAF personnel and evaluators based on the bids, which would then be used by the top brass and MoD to aid in the downselect.

Hereon come the other stuff that don't directly deal with the aircraft's service effectiveness - stuff like strategic gains, other deal sweeteners, LCC, costs, etc. But to assume that the IAF evaluations should've or would've been limited solely to how fast the craft turned or its radar range, is naive and an insult to the intelligence and independence of the IAF evaluation team.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Sumeet » 13 May 2011 01:13

k prasad wrote:10) There seems to be a big misconception among people about what 'technical' evaluation means. It doesnt simply mean evaluating only that stuff which can be ascribed a number, independent of all other factors.

It instead includes ALL the stuff which would influence how that aircraft would/could perform in the IAF ORBAT, in the role they expect it to play, against the opponents they expect to field it against, in the theatre and locations they might be facing them in, and their effectiveness at other times - availability of spares, commonality, ease of maintenance, etc.

Which means CISMOA, spares availability, sanctions etc etc would end up being factors. These might've been assigned perceptional values or given detailed qualitative evaluations by the IAF personnel and evaluators based on the bids, which would then be used by the top brass and MoD to aid in the downselect
.

Hereon come the other stuff that don't directly deal with the aircraft's service effectiveness - stuff like strategic gains, other deal sweeteners, LCC, costs, etc. But to assume that the IAF evaluations should've or would've been limited solely to how fast the craft turned or its radar range, is naive and an insult to the intelligence and independence of the IAF evaluation team.

This portion is a gem of a piece. Every MRCA fanatic who has been typing in this thread persistently for last half a decade of its existence should read it.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby SaiK » 13 May 2011 02:55

indeed, nice one there. operational aspects can't be exclusive of technical parameters.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby mahesh Sankar » 13 May 2011 05:04

Howwzaat........ hahahah

http://asian-defence.blogspot.com/2011/ ... 5204545020

According to the Russian International Information Telegraph Agency refuses regarding India to purchase the Mig - 35 fighter plane incidents, Russia strategy and technical analysis center assistant director Constantine□Markey extended the branch saying.


Russia should let the Indian Air force undertake the consequence for own decision. In the Moscow tradition to maintains the restraint to the Pakistani sell weapon, but refuses in India to purchase under the Mig - 35 new situations, should carefully examine this policy.


He believed that the Pakistani Air force possibly while purchases Chinese and American fighter plane's also purchases Mig - 35.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Avid » 13 May 2011 07:00

That ^^^?

That logic is as much junk as the english grammar it contains.

Russians, above all, knew it well that they were not getting this contract. It was plenty evident from the time India finalized and committed to the FGFA development. All these are side-show-circuses.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby saip » 13 May 2011 07:03

I dont know how Russians can 'sell' the planes to the bankrupt country like Pakistan. Unless by that they mean they will give the planes for free and another $10 mil to fly them.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby kuldipchager » 13 May 2011 07:41

It is going to be like when we have jaguar from britain,then we also start producing Mig 27.
Say we buy French or Britain.
Mig 35 will get in through back door.
We have to remember,if we end in UN voting on Kashmere issue again.then how we can ask Russian to use VETO?

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Sanku » 13 May 2011 12:47

--- who me ----

:mrgreen:
Last edited by Sanku on 13 May 2011 13:10, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Rahul M » 13 May 2011 13:01

this is the last time I am going to say it nicely. do NOT discuss anything other than rafale or eurofighter here

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby VishalJ » 13 May 2011 15:57

Rakesh wrote:Vishal Jolapara: BEAUTIFUL SHOT! :)

Thanks Rakesh Image
Next-up, श्रीमान् Shiv Aroor riding Katrina & signalling with his LiveFist whilst airborne - Image

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby paramyog » 13 May 2011 16:17

..any insights on how the 2 Delta Canards have performed in the NATO led A2G campaign over the Libyan territory ?
This perhaps is the first time, either draws blood in the battle.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby SaiK » 13 May 2011 18:01

Ef2K did scramble to show us the A2G using the pavwaves-2s, but at libya, the super kat was the leader right from the word go! nicely played by sarkar-ozky.

But, I guess libya is no measure for what we want.


Any plans on resizing the super kat, as she ages? :twisted:

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby RSoami » 13 May 2011 23:26

Rafale: France is a veto holding permanent member of the Security Council.
Its politico-strategic minded and perhaps the most influencial state in the European Union.
Did not apply any sanctions post Pokhran.
With good diplomatic and negotiating skills we could have a powerful ally in the western world we can count on.
Unlikely that the Americans can force the French to slap sanctions against another democratic state. Remember French were keen to sell even to the Chinese.
Proven ground attack ability.
Can be used on aircraft carriers.
A little cheaper.

Typhoon:
Consortium of four different states.
Germany is India of the 50s.Lots of lectures. No real interest in politico-strategic affairs. Likely to be a lecturing nanny and pain in the a$$ although an economic powerhouse.
Spain is facing economic problems.
Uk is an American stooge and has no independent foreign policy. Expect nothing from them.
Susceptible to sanctions by the Americans.
Typhoon was designed for air to air role. Its ground attack capability have not been proven the same way as Rafale`s have been.
Cannot be used on aircraft carriers; not till now.
Costlier.
Newest of the lot and probably has a bright future with lots of upgrades.
We can expect a lot of ToT for the very reason that it is inherently disadvantaged for so many other issues.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Drishyaman » 14 May 2011 00:22

RSoami wrote:
Typhoon:

Typhoon was designed for air to air role. Its ground attack capability have not been proven the same way as Rafale`s have been.
Cannot be used on aircraft carriers; not till now.
Costlier.
Newest of the lot and probably has a bright future with lots of upgrades.
We can expect a lot of ToT for the very reason that it is inherently disadvantaged for so many other issues.


Exactly, EF will come with the tag "Do it yourself" and if we are to do it ourselves why do it on EF, we can very well do it on AMCA

Better to go in for Rafale if it comes with ToT, learn from that enhance those technology and impliment those on AMCA. Squeeze out the Frenchie.
Tejas and Rafale can compliment each other, may be 10 yrs down the line they might share their engine, AESA Radar and may be many things more in terms of technology.
Oh yaa !! Frenchies doesn't have a Naval Version of any single engined aircraft with AESA Radar on Charles de Gaul. I see business here :)

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby MarcH » 14 May 2011 01:18

Drishyaman wrote:Exactly, EF will come with the tag "Do it yourself" and if we are to do it ourselves why do it on EF, we can very well do it on AMCA

Better to go in for Rafale if it comes with ToT, learn from that enhance those technology and impliment those on AMCA. Squeeze out the Frenchie.
Tejas and Rafale can compliment each other, may be 10 yrs down the line they might share their engine, AESA Radar and may be many things more in terms of technology.
Oh yaa !! Frenchies doesn't have a Naval Version of any single engined aircraft with AESA Radar on Charles de Gaul. I see business here :)


Exactly how would you substantiate your claim ? Rafale is ahead in weapons- and AESA integreation. Fine. But exactly which advantage will this bring to the IAF ? By 2014/15, when IAF receives their first airframes, the Typhoon offers a broader weapon spectrum.
ASRAAM or IRIS-T, UK PW IV or GBU-49, Stormshadow or Taurus. Add to that list Brimstone and the PW II/III series of bombs and you've got quite a bit more then AASM and PW II/III on Rafale.
And given the pricetag of modern European (especially French) weapons it's not exactly a bad thing to have a bit competition.

And if you look beyond a2g weapons, you will find that the Tiffy is ahead in the a2a arena. It has a working IRST, HMCS and the quite unique direct voice input.

The British are dead serious about the electronic attack capabality for CAPTOR-E (not even discussed for Rafale). A refined TVC engine prototype is available, too.

Both designs have their benefits. And in my opinion it isn't clear that the Rafale is cheaper in the long run, if one includes weapons.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby SaiK » 14 May 2011 01:42

Leaving cost aside, we should bring out all the technical aspects of both these a/cs, and then compare the offers, and then work on the cost angle on the total offer relative to each other.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Viv S » 14 May 2011 02:29

RSoami wrote:Rafale: France is a veto holding permanent member of the Security Council.


They've also been the most placid member of the Security Council. In any case, its not really relevant to the Rafale's utility in IAF service. The IAF and IN will continue to exercise with their French (and British) counterparts regardless of how the order pans out.

Its politico-strategic minded and perhaps the most influencial state in the European Union.


Debatable. While they have a more robust foreign policy, Germany is by far the most important member of the EU. That comes out of having an economy that's 40% larger than that of France.

Did not apply any sanctions post Pokhran.
With good diplomatic and negotiating skills we could have a powerful ally in the western world we can count on.


India doesn't need to go around desperately scrambling for friends lest someone contemplate another set of dreaded sanctions. Its 2010. By the end of this decade, India should have overtaken France as the fifth largest economy in the world.
With good diplomatic and negotiating skills perhaps France could have a powerful ally in the Asian world that they can count on. Or maybe not.

Unlikely that the Americans can force the French to slap sanctions against another democratic state. Remember French were keen to sell even to the Chinese.


I doubt if eagerness to sell to China should be counted as a plus.

Proven ground attack ability.
Can be used on aircraft carriers.
A little cheaper.

Typhoon was designed for air to air role. Its ground attack capability have not been proven the same way as Rafale`s have been.
Cannot be used on aircraft carriers; not till now.
Costlier.
Newest of the lot and probably has a bright future with lots of upgrades.
We can expect a lot of ToT for the very reason that it is inherently disadvantaged for so many other issues.




There is nothing in the Rafale airframe that makes it more suitable as a strike aircraft (save perhaps its five wet-points to the three on the EF).

Its certainly had a first movers advantage but I wouldn't buy too far into that argument. The Rafale's maiden flight was a good eight years before the EF's. It entered service three years before the EF. And the deliveries of the final 60 Rafales will still end up coinciding with the Tranche 3 deliveries to the European air forces.

Despite the touted emphasis on air to ground capability the Rafale did not get an autonomous ground attack capability till mid-2008. Until then it flying exactly the way the EF T2s are doing - with a wingman (Mirage-2000/Super-Etendard) designating the target. As a matter of fact, the Litening pod was integrated to the EF before the Damocles on the Rafale. By next year the EF will be fully qualified with the Litening-III and Paveway-IV. Still pending is the AESA and Meteor integration and there's no reason why those shouldn't be available within the IAF's time-frame (its debatable if the IAF would be interested in the Storm Shadow with a cheaper domestic alternative available).

Coming to the naval alternative - do we know that the IN would be interested in the Rafale? Eventually they're looking for a fifth generation aircraft which makes excellent sense seeing as the potency of the aerial complement is critical to the security of the entire carrier group. Or do they intend to operate a circus like their counterparts in the IAF - Sea Harriers (for a while yet), MiG-29Ks, N-Tejas, Rafales and F-35/FGFAs (depending on availability and choice).

Also wrt to the cost and ToT - there's nothing about the Rafale that makes it fundamentally cheaper. The French have so far managed to prevent the price from spiralling by offsetting production into future - to the point where it takes possession of a paltry 10 new aircraft annually. The EF consortium on the other hand (with some 'visionary long term planning') drew up contracts, which with punitive clauses, guaranteed their suppliers timely orders, ending up binding themselves into the timescale. Point being, when both aircraft are rolling off HAL's assembly line, there isn't likely to be substantial difference in their cost (if anything the EF will be cheaper, owing to a larger build order for components ordered from the OEMs). And finally, from all publicly available information it appears the EF consortium is offering a far more comprehensive ToT/package with their offer of full membership and so on.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby VishalJ » 14 May 2011 04:27

Image

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Sumeet » 14 May 2011 04:56

Viv S wrote:There is nothing in the Rafale airframe that makes it more suitable as a strike aircraft (save perhaps its five wet-points to the three on the EF).


Ground strike is not just dependent only on TF & SAR Radar mode, E-O sensors for targeting and bunch of air to surface weapons. Airframe performance at sustained subsonic/high speed low altitude flying with heavy to light weapon load matters as well.

I don't know which aircraft performs better on that point.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby andy B » 14 May 2011 05:39


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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Viv S » 14 May 2011 05:40

Sumeet wrote:
Viv S wrote:There is nothing in the Rafale airframe that makes it more suitable as a strike aircraft (save perhaps its five wet-points to the three on the EF).


Ground strike is not just dependent only on TF & SAR Radar mode, E-O sensors for targeting and bunch of air to surface weapons. Airframe performance at sustained subsonic/high speed low altitude flying with heavy to light weapon load matters as well.

I don't know which aircraft performs better on that point.


I specified that the Rafale's airframe did not set it aside. While its more optimized for low speed manoeuvrability owing to its carrier role, it still has roughly the same wing loading as the EF. Fast and low, I'd say the difference would probably be marginal.

Coming to sensors, I deliberately haven't gone into this because a comparison of those would be even more vague than that of their airframes. DBS/SAR modes were tested on the CAESAR and will be feature of the Captor-E. And one can't compare the PIRATE/DASS to the SPECTRA without any reliable data, and glossy journals usually have a lot of English (or French) but very few hard numbers.

But, even without data one thing is certain, the Captor-E will pack a lot lot more brute power than the RBE-2AA, dedicated EW channels aside.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Sumeet » 14 May 2011 07:48

Viv S wrote:
Sumeet wrote:
Ground strike is not just dependent only on TF & SAR Radar mode, E-O sensors for targeting and bunch of air to surface weapons. Airframe performance at sustained subsonic/high speed low altitude flying with heavy to light weapon load matters as well.

I don't know which aircraft performs better on that point.


I specified that the Rafale's airframe did not set it aside. While its more optimized for low speed manoeuvrability owing to its carrier role, it still has roughly the same wing loading as the EF. Fast and low, I'd say the difference would probably be marginal.



I will give you scenarios:

1) To bomb a puke port, the MRCA plane flies out of South West Air command over sea route to avoid detection and surprise enemy. Which one can do sustained subsonic/high speed dash (flying at low altitude for as long as possible) better: Rafale or EF ?

2) IAF needs to defend our coastline and support/attack anywhere from strait of hormuz to strait of malaca. Which aircraft will do better at low flying over sea surface to avoid detection from Naval Surveillance radars and FCRs ?

In other words don't think of ground strike as being limited to targets for which you have to traverse distance over land.

Coming to sensors, I deliberately haven't gone into this because a comparison of those would be even more vague than that of their airframes. DBS/SAR modes were tested on the CAESAR and will be feature of the Captor-E. And one can't compare the PIRATE/DASS to the SPECTRA without any reliable data, and glossy journals usually have a lot of English (or French) but very few hard numbers.

But, even without data one thing is certain, the Captor-E will pack a lot lot more brute power than the RBE-2AA, dedicated EW channels aside.


For air to air mode Rafale can be supported by MKI [with AESA] or PAK-FA/FGFA playing the mini AWACs role. Also, with PAK-FA entering service around 2017-2020, most air to air role will be taken care by it. Most likely, it will lead MRCA and MKI pack into enemy territory. MKI with AESA will be a good companion for Rafale flying radio silent and relying on SPECTRA/FSO and MKI for targeting data. When Rafale has to concentrate its AESA on a "known" target, range will not matter that much.

I agree autonomously Rafale will not be as good as EF in Air to Air combat.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Devesh Rawal » 14 May 2011 10:28

I have a question for the gurus. Can HAL take over a large part of the work done at CASA (Spain) and Alenia (Italy) for the Typhoon? It seems that then we would be left with work from BAE and EADS (Germany) which is not too bad. It seems that the critical components these two are providing are wing components. Since India is "late" to the party, it does not have to respect the kind of european agreement (umbrella contract) that led to the division of labor in the original partners? There would be new work-sharing contracts drawn up.

What's next for the Eurofighter:
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/Eurofighters-EUR-9B-Miltinational-Tranche-3A-Contract-05674/

I suspect these two aircraft are closer to each other than any of the other contenders, and the final decision will be based on price. Everything I am reading about this plane nowadays seems to be about how expensive it is and how the original partners are having heartburn to try and support the costs of development. This is almost a golden chance for India to step in and literally "save" the program. I don't think any of the remaining potential customers offer that ability - not KSA, not the smaller european nations, certainly not Indonesia. Perhaps Japan, but that's a far cry (for a sell) - they don't even buy Airbus in significant numbers. :)

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby rajatmisra » 14 May 2011 13:07

Will the final selection be only driven by price, or will there be a weightage for technical capabilities as well?
One thought - the French already have a large order for Nuclear Power Plant in Jaitapur - will that affect the decision on the MMRCA in anyway?


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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby BENNY » 14 May 2011 17:01

Rafale pictures of the day : New aircrafts delivered
Saturday, May 14, 2011

Image

Rafale C130 during a reception flight at Bordeau Merignac - ©Frenchskies - May 9th 2011
Note the single centerline 2000L tank which is the usual loadout for reception flights.

Image
Rafale M32 spotted at Landivisiau Naval Base - ©Azraelle - May 5th 2011

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby SaiK » 14 May 2011 18:07

Jamal, your link is OT, and violates thread objectives. move it to indo-us strat.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Viv S » 14 May 2011 23:14

Sumeet wrote:I will give you scenarios:

1) To bomb a puke port, the MRCA plane flies out of South West Air command over sea route to avoid detection and surprise enemy. Which one can do sustained subsonic/high speed dash (flying at low altitude for as long as possible) better: Rafale or EF ?


You tell me. They're equally good as far as I can see. Any difference would be marginal. How is flying over sea difference in principle from flying low over the plains of Punjab or the deserts of Thar (mountains being a different kettle of fish)? If anything, degrading performance in the Rajasthani summer's rarefied air would be a greater challenge.

2) IAF needs to defend our coastline and support/attack anywhere from strait of hormuz to strait of malaca. Which aircraft will do better at low flying over sea surface to avoid detection from Naval Surveillance radars and FCRs ?


Amongst themselves, no real difference. But, within the IAF's fleet, the Su-30MKI by far. Its got the range to be really effective over vast distances and while it can't supercruise its fuel reserves allow it plenty of time to go low on approach.

For air to air mode Rafale can be supported by MKI [with AESA] or PAK-FA/FGFA playing the mini AWACs role. Also, with PAK-FA entering service around 2017-2020, most air to air role will be taken care by it. Most likely, it will lead MRCA and MKI pack into enemy territory. MKI with AESA will be a good companion for Rafale flying radio silent and relying on SPECTRA/FSO and MKI for targeting data. When Rafale has to concentrate its AESA on a "known" target, range will not matter that much.


Considering the IAF is looking at a fleet of 126 aircraft, possibly scaled up to 200, its a bad idea to rely on the MKI for air to air missions. It takes away from the flexibility inherent in a multi-role platform. In any case, the EF can fly mixed force missions, strike/CAS missions and still excel at operations requiring air superiority.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby arthuro » 14 May 2011 23:55

Three nice videos of the rafale :

Rafale M on the CdG for the Libyan campaign

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6yzrLnP8ucE

Rafale video from Swiss aircraft film maker Lionel Charlet

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gfP2MJ018Q

Fantastic rafale demo :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWeiG52Q88w

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby VikramS » 15 May 2011 00:43

Viv S:

I think you are confusing a few thing. It is not that Rafale is not capable as an A2A platform. It is just that it was not designed to be primarily an A2A platform as the EF was. The EF still is an incomplete platform when it comes to A2G capabilities.

Another aspect to keep in mind is that strike packages in the future will contain more varied elements. With mobile SAM units becoming common, any serious strike package requires A2A, A2G and SEAD capabilities. While it would be wonderful if a single aircraft could do all. But except for truly stealth aircraft which can ignore the SAMs and even the A2A issues, most other platforms will need to be account for all.

Another very important aspect is ECM and jamming. It would be wonderful to have electronic packages coming from two completely different vendors which completely different design and algorithm philosophies. From a counter-ECM point of view countering two different sets of ECM signatures becomes a lot more complex than countering a single set. In fact I would say that it is wonderful that the IAF has the MKI platform with the strength of Rhamba's legs to do anything they want with it. Unless the strike package is relying very strongly on stealth, the MKI is a wonderful companion to have.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Juggi G » 15 May 2011 03:43



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