India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Part 2

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 01 Dec 2011 06:11

Increasingly, I get the feeling that while the EF might be superb in its intended role - supersonic BVR combat; it does not fare too well in the WVR arena esp. as it gets lower and slower. The ATLC, and Corsica DACT exercises, along with the Indradhanush results might point to this. Perhaps the Paf Falcons did score well against it as well. And now the SwAF evals.

They need to stick that HMS/TVC in there pronto quick imho and make this offer as part of the MRCA package. The IAF has not done away with gunfights for a good reason, WVR is still important, at least in India's context.

Taygibay · Post by **Taygibay** » 01 Dec 2011 06:20

Agreed, CainMarko!
Roughly 250 by 350 km in size,
most fighting in between 4k meters mountains
and France, Germany and Italy surrounding them.

Here are examples of their planes' environment :

http://www.wat.tv/video/swiss-air-force ... i4rd_.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbSyg6BXA-M

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0CIXFIOYig

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 01 Dec 2011 10:36

Danell wrote:
Kartik wrote:[...]

IMO, to suggest that a Typhoon with a Captor-E AESA radar and AMRAAM will be only 0.5 points better than the F/A-18 C/D with the AMRAAM sounds bogus.
Over Switzerland and its 40000 km2 ?, it doesn't sound bogus at all for me , never forget this is a Swiss evaluation made by the Swiss air Force for its own missions and adapted to Switzerland 's characteristics. These results are interesting but are not directly applicable to another environment like India i think.

I didn't get your point about 40000 km2.

I am not forgetting that the Swiss evaluation might have had some very Swiss specific requirements. That makes perfect sense to me. But I cannot digest the fact that a fighter with far superior kinematics, MMI, far superior radar (even in its current Captor-M form) and PIRATE would be separated from the F/A-18 C/D by just 0.5 points. I cannot imagine a mission where the F/A-18 baseline would be bettered by the Typhoon by just 0.5 points even if the F/A-18 is updated with the JHMCS with AIM-9X.

There is just too much information that isn't available to us here- what particular Typhoon was being considered and what equipment on it was being considered? For instance, in WVR, what missile and whether HMDS was even considered or not? The Rafale currently lacks a HMDS whereas the Typhoon doesn't. Is a Gerfaut HMDS being developed for the Rafale F3+? Would that have been taken into account?

member_20453 · Post by **member_20453** » 01 Dec 2011 11:57

No matter how much the Rafale was considered the best in Swiss, they still lost, the aircraft was considered best compared to a non AESA typhoon and Gripen C/D. It would have been a whole different game if the Typhoon had Captor-E and Gripen NG was tested. Without AESA EF and Gripen C/D are inferior to the AESA Raffy. Eitherway all the hype about Raffy being the best didn't result in a sale. The french suck and there is no honor in keep delusioning themselves or others saying they had the best in competition, it was an unfair competition to begin with. The swiss were precise but they certainly don't need such a lengthy competition to find out Raffy was the best among aircraft that don't even have common attributes. Raffy seems to be going no where.

Hooray for Gripen C/D, it is pathetic how after soo much hype Raffy still lost. The french do suck at selling the aircraft.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 01 Dec 2011 12:46

I'm surprised at the parallels being drawn between the Swiss and Indian procurements. Just because the Swiss have a (at least partly) professional air force doesn't mean their results coincide with the IAF's. As a doctrinal position the Swiss military trains as the perennial underdog, even more so than say.. the Swedish.

In wartime, their aircraft are intended to operate out of hardened highways and caverns built into mountainsides, the locations of which until recently were state secrets. And like their ground forces they train extensively in ambush attacks. Their pilots know the terrain and topography like the back of their hand and exploit it to the hilt. And this is borne out in DACT exercises where even visiting veterans pilots received bloody noses from the SAF aircraft engaging in pop up attacks from valleys and mountains.

In a country where the air force isn't allowed to go supersonic below 30,000 feet during training and where doing so would result in the aircraft crossing the IB in under five minutes, the Eurofighter's agility and kinematic performance is of vastly reduced importance. Supercruise is almost meaningless.

The IAF on the other hand trains to take the PAF and PLAAF head on and establishing local air superiority if not air dominance is very much a part of its doctrine. Or its as ACM PV Naik puts it - 'to see first and farthest, to reach first and farthest, to hit accurately and hard, and to protect assets.' Which is why I'm convinced that a dubious Deccan Chronicle article notwithstanding, the Eurofighter led the merit list prepared after the IAF's technical evaluations.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 01 Dec 2011 12:58

Kartik wrote:The Rafale currently lacks a HMDS whereas the Typhoon doesn't. Is a Gerfaut HMDS being developed for the Rafale F3+? Would that have been taken into account?

I believe the Gerfaut was abandoned a while ago after running into technical roadblocks. There's no replacement HMS planned for the foreseeable future.

koti · Post by **koti** » 01 Dec 2011 13:16

^^Highly debatable.

In a country where the air force isn't allowed to go supersonic below 30,000 feet during training and where doing so would result in the aircraft crossing the IB in under five minutes, the Eurofighter's agility and kinematic performance is of vastly reduced importance. Supercruise is almost meaningless.

When you mentioned about size of Switzerland, don't you think UAE or Austria which have EF and planning to acquire one have similar constraints?
Just to nitpick, EF's Supercruise is on par with Rafale's according to public info available. Maybe the Swiss knew better.

arthuro · Post by **arthuro** » 01 Dec 2011 13:48

Kartik, septisimus,

The second phase of the evaluation did take into account the Typhoon with the captor-E and the gripen NG. They updated the result of 2008 technical evaluation with manufacturer datas. It is the gripen NG with F414G engine that the swiss are getting in 2015 not the vanilla C/D variant.

A second Evaluation was done between March and August 2009 to take into account the upgrades and improvements of the 3 fighters in their "2015 form". This evaluation was based on data provided by the manufacturers or simulated flights. This final Armasuisse report, with updated rankings was released in November 2009 and is recommending the Rafale for the Swiss Air Force (confirming the rumors heard during the last 2 years).

As for the F18 benchmark it was not a direct capability comparison but evaluations with realistic scenarios versus the F18.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 01 Dec 2011 13:50

koti wrote:^^Highly debatable.
In a country where the air force isn't allowed to go supersonic below 30,000 feet during training and where doing so would result in the aircraft crossing the IB in under five minutes, the Eurofighter's agility and kinematic performance is of vastly reduced importance. Supercruise is almost meaningless.
When you mentioned about size of Switzerland, don't you think UAE or Austria which have EF and planning to acquire one have similar constraints?

The EF was a political purchase by Austria, so yes it may not necessarily have been the choice that the military would have made (I'm quite unfamiliar with their defence planning). The UAE on the other hand is neither landlocked nor mountainous. As a matter of fact, any air engagements are likely to happen over the Persian Gulf (or Iran) rather than over Emirati land.

Just to nitpick, EF's Supercruise is on par with Rafale's according to public info available. Maybe the Swiss knew better.

You mean Dassault claims its at par. Unlike the Eurofighter, the Rafale hasn't demonstrated supercruise.

arthuro · Post by **arthuro** » 01 Dec 2011 14:04

correction : the rafale did demonstrate supercruise during swiss tests and it is regularly performed when rafale are scrambled for Quick Reaction Alert (QRA) in France.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 01 Dec 2011 14:11

a rafale reaching supercruise over swiss airspace will soon be flying over the mediterranean sea...!

koti · Post by **koti** » 01 Dec 2011 14:14

Viv S wrote:You mean Dassault claims its at par. Unlike the Eurofighter, the Rafale hasn't demonstrated supercruise.

I missed on that one. Might I request a source.
TIA.

arthuro · Post by **arthuro** » 01 Dec 2011 14:22

source about the rafale demonstrating super cruise in Switzerland :

The Rafale is the favorite:
The industrial partnership:

The Rafale International Industrial Consortium - made up of Dassault Aviation, Snecma (Safra Group) and Thales, MBDA and their subcontractors are able to offer a Swiss industrial and scientific cooperation for the benefit of all its cantons. This has affected the entire range of suppliers ie: the military with the Rafale, but also the civilian sector, which includes programs for Falcon business jets, the engine type CFM56 civil and avionics for aircraft and helicopters. Some elements of the Rafale are already produced in Switzerland (glass cockpit, fuel tank and more recently additional elements of the Thales radar RBE2).

The offer provides for the outsourcing of many structural components, final assembly and maintenance in Switzerland for the entire program Rafale as well as research and development. The manufacture of armaments (missiles MICA) is also proposed and the development of helmet-mounted sight GERFAUT, systems are also affected as the system of self-protection spectrum and the second generation OSF.

According Dassault, the Rafale is the plane that is best for our country, because as close collaboration with both military and industry are encouraged. Also, be aware that the latest version (F3 +) tested in Switzerland responded to 95% in the specifications and offers the following possibilities:

• ability to flight mode "Supercruise."
• Short take-off distance.
• Range and capacity for extended flight for long surveillance missions.
• Fast implementation including soldiers of the militia.
• Easy integration of the works already constructed.
Multisensor system proposed:

The proposed version of the Rafale in our country is the latest available is the standard 04T with the wiring for the METEOR missile, the Damocles pod XF and the new architecture IDM. The unit will have:

• Radar Thales AESA RBE-2AA.
• System autopotection SPECTRA.
• On the OSF (Front Sector optics) next generation.
• A connection 16 (Link16) next generation (MIDS).
• System data fusion NCW (Net Centric Warfare).

http://psk.blog.24heures.ch/archive/201 ... avori.html

The same source states that it is indeed the typhoon with captor-E who was proposed to the swiss airforce.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 01 Dec 2011 14:51

arthuro wrote:source about the rafale demonstrating super cruise in Switzerland :

The same source states that it is indeed the typhoon with captor-E who was proposed to the swiss airforce.

It doesn't say it demonstrated supercruise. That's a creative interpretation like the idea about the SPECTRA locking onto the APG-79 emissions. Also the development of the Gerfaut has been cancelled altogether, though the integration of the Topsight-E is still possible in the future.

arthuro · Post by **arthuro** » 01 Dec 2011 15:00

perhaps the translation isn't good enough but it is crystal clear : rafale showed ability to fly in supercruise mode during swiss tests.
Also the Gerfault is not completely cancelled : it was showcased during latest paris airshow and I saw it myself on sagem stand (although I don't know if it was fully functional, at least it demonstrates they are promoting it).

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 01 Dec 2011 15:16

arthuro wrote:perhaps the translation isn't good enough but it is crystal clear : rafale showed ability to fly in supercruise mode during swiss tests.

Then suppose I'll have to learn French to see the crystal clarity therein.

Also the Gerfault is not completely cancelled : it was showcased during latest paris airshow and I saw it myself on sagem stand (although I don't know if it was fully functional, at least it demonstrates they are promoting it).

Saw it in a stand at airshow huh.

arthuro · Post by **arthuro** » 01 Dec 2011 15:21

just googled "gerfault sagem bourget" and select "image research" on google and here it is :

http://www.parisairshow2005.com/fr/i_1606_1.php
It was still exposed on sagem stand last June.

The rafale did demonstrate supercruise as clearly exposed during the swiss evaluation but some will always prefer to live in denial.

PS : I have access to professional days at the paris air show and I have invitations from Dassault and Thales so it is quite easy for me to visit Sagem stand. I believe you are quite skeptical which is undersatndable when you don't know who is really writing but I will share with you and others some of my personnal pictures this evening to make my point.

koti · Post by **koti** » 01 Dec 2011 15:29

Viv S wrote: Also the development of the Gerfaut has been cancelled altogether, though the integration of the Topsight-E is still possible in the future.

I thought that was already done.

Couldn't find any sources though.

http://www.deagel.com/Display-and-Netwo ... 81001.aspx
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_h ... n28769391/
http://www.ausairpower.net/hmd-technology.html

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 01 Dec 2011 15:31

arthuro wrote:just googled "gerfault sagem bourget" and select "image research" on google and here it is :

http://www.parisairshow2005.com/fr/i_1606_1.php
It was still exposed on sagem stand last June.

Yep. Agreed. All the cancellation reports were obviously shoddy journalism, this here is conclusive proof.

The rafale did demonstrate supercruise as clearly exposed during the swiss evaluation but some will always prefer to live in denial.

Not in the least. I'm hampered by my knowledge extending only to English and Hindi. I'm sure in French it said the supercruise was demonstrated, and I bow to your inspection of the original untranslated article.

arthuro · Post by **arthuro** » 01 Dec 2011 15:40

Viv S,

I talked to at least a dozen rafale pilots at the lattest paris air show and when I asked if the rafale can supercruise the answer is positive. Now there are no doubts that the Typhoon does better in this field and the french pilots knows it.

The typical AtA configuration is 1 belly supersonic drop tank and 6 micas.

I will make a photo report of those days spent at the professional days paris air show when home this evening.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 01 Dec 2011 16:08

arthuro wrote:Viv S,

I talked to at least a dozen rafale pilots at the lattest paris air show and when I asked if the rafale can supercruise the answer is positive. Now there are no doubts that the Typhoon does better in this field and the french pilots knows it.

The typical AtA configuration is 1 belly supersonic drop tank and 6 micas.

At Mach 1.4 right? Then why is it that the general consensus amongst all observers is that the Rafale's supercruise capability is unproven?

I will make a photo report of those days spent at the professional days paris air show when home this evening.

I'm obviously not getting through here. Surely you don't seriously believe that a mere stall at an airshow is evidence of anything?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 Dec 2011 17:00

the supercruise reference of rafale in wiki points to these two citations. they are not available on the web so I could not check. the first one points to dassault aviation website.

^ "Air defense mission for flotille F12." Fox Three, issue 8, pg. 8. Retrieved: 2011-03-30.
^ Desclaux, Jacques and Jacques Serre (2003). M88 – 2 E4: Advanced New Generation Engine for Rafale Multirole Fighter. AIAA/ICAS International Air and Space Symposium and Exposition: The Next 100 Years. 14–17 July 2003, Dayton, Ohio. AIAA 2003-2610.

and then again one page says:
Though current Rafale variants are claimed to be capable of supercruise, the aircraft was unable to demonstrate this during the Singapore evaluation, and many sources suggest that the aircraft is only marginally capable of supercruise, with light weapons loads and under certain atmospheric conditions, though a planned engine upgrade should, according to some sources , remove this limitation and allow the Rafale to supercruise with more realistic loads at around Mach 1.4.

arthuro · Post by **arthuro** » 01 Dec 2011 17:11

I don't know the exact speed but sufficient to be called supercruise by the pilot themselves. There is no general consensus at all. Since early 2000s rafale pilots are declaring that it can supercruise. I perfectly remember that when the rafale M entered in service around year 2000 in their F1 standard pilots were achieving supercruise when they were task for QRA.

arunsrinivasan · Post by **arunsrinivasan** » 01 Dec 2011 17:13

I think at this stage what matters is not the technical capabilities of Rafale vs EF but the commercials, ToT, & how much bargaining power / flexibility India will have when it comes to the MLU. I think the second part is very critical as we dont want the winner blackmailing us when the time for MLU comes as it seems to have happened with M2K upgrade. On that note alone I think Rafale should get the boot in opinion. My 2 cents.

arthuro · Post by **arthuro** » 01 Dec 2011 17:15

From DSI :

Rafale in Switzerland, why it gets stuck

DSI , dec 1

The failure of the Rafale in Switzerland raises many questions. I talked to Joseph Henrotin, revered editor of DSI and expert on air strategy and, more generally, the relationship between technology and strategy.Rafale crashed in Switzerland. Clearly, Rafale beat its competitors in the evaluation, but was not cheap . The price determines everything ?

[...] Indeed, technically speaking, the aircraft was ahead of its competitors and in general, the Rafale is an excellent fighter. [...] But the technical merit is not all. The price factor is also involved, especially when the Western states, including Switzerland, are through an unprecedented crisis.

In a context where Switzerland has no enemies on its borders, It could be difficult to politically legitimate and justify considerable costs in the eyes of the population, even certainly committed to the spirit of defense (probably more than anywhere else in Western Europe) . Moreover, the structure of these costs is not yet known: certainly, there is the one of the purchase. But there are the rest (MCO, ammunition, packages offered, the implications of local industries, etc..) And, at present we do not know much about the offer and its overall costs. But perhaps the Swedes are very strong in this game.

Other factors also come into play. The Rafale would replace the F-5. In the Swiss doctrine, the Tiger must be "dispersible" and able to operate from RHA (road sections used as emergency airfields). The aircraft [Gripen] is versatile and lightweight - it meets the spirit of technological and strategic cultures in Switzerland. Comparatively, the Rafale is certainly versatile, but is neither heavy nor light . Also some members of the Swiss Army saw the aircraft as belonging to an "overkill" for too many missions to complete.

There remains the question of marking policy, too. The Rafale is the aircraft of the war in Libya. From what I know of some Swiss "decisionmakers" sees the aircraft as very "offensive". I do not think, given the discussions I had with the Swiss military, that this feeling has been shared by them. By cons, it could be the case with some decisionmakers ... At this stage it is in any case too early to draw any lessons from this case.

In fact. Rafale has difficultiles like the French industry, in general, with the sentence: we are of course the fourth exporter in the world, but far from the first three and a fifth on our heels. Do we have a problem?

From a technical point of view, no, our equipment is good - although sometimes they are so good and they are too expensive. However, this remark does not apply in the field of combat aircraft, rather in the field of ammunition.

Ok. Why it gets stuck then?

[...]the issue is very complex. That said, I will give some tips to a hypothetical graduate student.

- First, we consider our exports with the eye of the engineer: for us the case is first technical, while technic has only a minor role in purchase decisions of equipment. We are not on the same level as the customer.

- Two, exporting is a trade issue. You have to be agile, lightweight, fast, imaginative and lethal to competitors. Whatever the field, it is the only business formula that works. But I feel that we're not.
Just an anecdote, but it seems to me very indicative. At DSI, from time to time , we interview industrialists. It can be important because it could allow a military or political customer, to understand the motivations, the foundations, the possibilities of a project outside of direct channels of communication specific to negotiations. But this year I had eight refusals from French companies [..] . I do not give names, I accuse no one, I'm just trying to understand. But in six years of publications, I have never had a refusal or delay by a foreign manufacturer ...

- Three, exporting armament is a military matter and strategic studies are not an intellectual luxury. How do you sell something to someone if you do not know his intellectual references, its strategic culture or, more basically still, his habits of negotiation? Yet it is the royal road to "customer oriented".

Taygibay · Post by **Taygibay** » 01 Dec 2011 18:16

The french suck and there is no honor in keep delusioning themselves or others saying they had the best in competition, it was an unfair competition to begin with.

Easy to say when secure behind an internet connection huh Troll?
You have once again rendered anything you can say worthless by adding insult to your
usual lies.

For the rest, the Rafale's proposed HMCS is the Top Sight, not the Gerfaut;
all 3 aircrafts in the Swiss competition were allowed to revise their bids in
the second iteration so what they put in those is their fault, whichever;
trying to base arguments on minimizing the value of the Swiss work is a
pathetic immature way to act.

All 3 ACs were compared to a known quantity so the evaluation stands.

@Viv_S The supercruise is 1.2 Mach with central EFT and Micas, I posted the link,
just read back, please. Singha gave them too BTW.

Agreed with koti and mostly with Arunsrinivasan although by the time the MLU
comes around, the local adaptation should be quite feasible. If HAL & the rest
of the Indian aero-mili industry run a production line for a few years and cannot
manage upgrades to their liking, it is a very sad situation that should worry you.

I hope the IAF and GoI choose the best AC for their needs and trust that they will
not do so based on untruthful advertising and fanboys' opinions.

If it is the Typhoon, may it shine over the Himalayas.
Same the other choice around.

Good day to the good people, TAY.

P.S. The reactions of these last pages do not reflect in too good a fashion on BRFites.
Let's just add congrats to SAAB if things go through.

saptarishi · Post by **saptarishi** » 01 Dec 2011 18:19

i don't think the swiss decision will have any bearing on mmrca. if rafale comes out cheaper in total of eight levels of price ( starting from m1 to m8) then i don't think why they can't make it. rafale still has lots of frontiers left uae,brazil and india. but you never know. dassault guys play spoilsport and rafale remains unsold. i really feel for this jet. it is second best jet in all departments. jack of all trades but i guess master of nothing. but it is a force multiplier no doubt. brazil will not go for rafale due to shortage of funds thats for sure. uae might go for typhoon, super hornet international roadmap or f-15 silent eagle. dassault guys should really be active in its marketing especially with the mod babus. it did well in technological evaluation,it does everywhere but with mod babus they need to be on their toes. eads guys might just steal the show. i really feel for this jet raffy.a good jet undone by incompetent negotiators

sukhish · Post by **sukhish** » 01 Dec 2011 21:17

Raffle lost the Swiss competition, no matter how much advanced it is, it still lost.
Similarly they will loose Indian competition also. The so called world's best 4.5 generation fighter which no one wants to buy. How does that sound!!!!

member_20453 · Post by **member_20453** » 01 Dec 2011 21:22

Tay...I'll say it yet again...The french indeed suck.. Their repeated failure to sell a good aircarft like Rafale proves yet again exactly what I have been saying the French suck. Their record of Raffy failures speak for themselves. BTW never said any lies about any of the contenders.

Arthuro Sahab, Raffy was indeed tested with RBE2 and Captor-E EF and Gripen NG simulated. Big difference. Simulations are hardly to be taken seriously and the Swiss didnt take them seriously. Raffy hence kept scoring higher due to having done physical tests. The Raffy being considered the best is still based on unfair incomplete competition. Raffy is no doubt a great aircraft. It can supercruise, no idea about the speeds though.

Great win for the Gripen NG. It was the only aircraft suitable for Swiss needs. Swiss neither has the use or the need for expensive twin seaters. Raffy and EF are over qualified to meet the requirment for one of the most neutral countries in the world. The biggest threat they face will be in joint excercises and an occasional passenger aircrarft that has its transponder OFF.

No offense Tay..u scratch my back...I scratch yours. My sadness on the French comes from deep disappointment in their inability to sell quite clearly one of the finest modern aircraft available on the market today.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 01 Dec 2011 21:31

I think all that Ef is not proven yet is its AESA and A2G/S missions, except for the pave waves they claim to have fired against Libya. Going by their capability, we have little doubts they will deliver, especially when our labs are in exchange as a partner. Except for political reason, I would not discount Ef's capability especially when one considers it paired or on mission support with MKI. Having total controls over the system especially in a net centric warfare is vital in winning future wars..

We can't reduce visibility of net-centric missions over supercruise or internal weapons or other 5th generation specs interfering with a political decision that is about to take place.

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 01 Dec 2011 21:49

Septimus P. wrote:Tay...I'll say it yet again...The french indeed suck.. Their repeated failure to sell a good aircarft like Rafale proves yet again exactly what I have been saying the French suck. Their record of Raffy failures speak for themselves. BTW never said any lies about any of the contenders.

Arthuro Sahab, Raffy was indeed tested with RBE2 and Captor-E EF and Gripen NG simulated. Big difference. Simulations are hardly to be taken seriously and the Swiss didnt take them seriously. Raffy hence kept scoring higher due to having done physical tests. The Raffy being considered the best is still based on unfair incomplete competition. Raffy is no doubt a great aircraft. It can supercruise, no idea about the speeds though.

Great win for the Gripen NG. It was the only aircraft suitable for Swiss needs. Swiss neither has the use or the need for expensive twin seaters. Raffy and EF are over qualified to meet the requirment for one of the most neutral countries in the world. The biggest threat they face will be in joint excercises and an occasional passenger aircrarft that has its transponder OFF.

No offense Tay..u scratch my back...I scratch yours. My sadness on the French comes from deep disappointment in their inability to sell quite clearly one of the finest modern aircraft available on the market today.

So my question is. Should their inability to sell; and the fact that they have been losing and I think more desparate now, not be used to our advantage to get the a/c IF we think it is the best?

Taygibay · Post by **Taygibay** » 01 Dec 2011 22:08

@Septimus_P & ** ( sic )

<del>

Stooping to your level, I just cannot do.

you just did. kindly do not repeat.
Rahul.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 01 Dec 2011 22:20

What has this thread come to?

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 01 Dec 2011 22:36

India always seems to like stuff that world doesnt like...so maybe IAF will be rafale first foreign customer

kelesis · Post by **kelesis** » 01 Dec 2011 22:40

On the Swiss deal, it seems that the story is not really over. The choice of the gov needs the parliament approval and according to the MP in charge of the trials, the Gripen offer has 100% chances to be rejected.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 01 Dec 2011 22:49

http://www.eurofighter.com/fileadmin/we ... 011web.pdf
read pg 9/12.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 01 Dec 2011 22:50

@ septimusP and co, what's with the bad mouthing of nationalities going on ? any more of that and people are going to get hellphyrred in this thread.
@ others, kindly report posts that cross the line, mods can't read every thread.

member_20453 · Post by **member_20453** » 01 Dec 2011 23:04

Rahul sahab pardon my badmouthing of nationality, won't happen again! How about I bad mouth Dassault, would that be okay? Just an honest question.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 01 Dec 2011 23:07

The Swiss decision has absolutely nothing to do with the Indian one. India has already made the technical decision.

It really does not help to compare what Brazil/UAE/Swiss do with that of the IAF. The recs have got to be very different.

kelesis wrote:On the Swiss deal, it seems that the story is not really over. The choice of the gov needs the parliament approval and according to the MP in charge of the trials, the Gripen offer has 100% chances to be rejected.

So can the Indian. IF the cost diff between what is offered and some bench marked cost then the Indian MMRCA deal could also be scrapped.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 01 Dec 2011 23:12

Septimus P. wrote:Rahul sahab pardon my badmouthing of nationality, won't happen again! How about I bad mouth Dassault, would that be okay? Just an honest question.

it speaks very poorly about your cognitive abilities if you can't make your point without bad mouthing somebody. you can of course do what you want, I would do what I must.
cheers.