India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Part 2

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby koti » 02 Nov 2011 00:15

Thats something good for the Rafale.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Katare » 02 Nov 2011 01:13

If you call some one pimp for "a" side while batting for other side, you should be ready to accept a similar tag for yourself.....

Better not comedown to such low levels and argue on merits........

Whn it comes to credentials most here would not even qualify to compete in the league that Shukla gets to play.....

I strongly disagree with his arguments but do see the merits and points he is making.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby eklavya » 02 Nov 2011 02:07

Katare wrote:Whn it comes to credentials most here would not even qualify to compete in the league that Shukla gets to play.....

I strongly disagree with his arguments but do see the merits and points he is making.


What are Shukla's credentials to argue for/against F-35 / Rafale / Typhoon?

What does Shukla know about the J-20?

What does Shukla know about the FGFA/PAK-FA?

Is he a test pilot?

Is he an aerospace engineer?

Does he have any experience in aircraft / aircraft systems evaluation?

Did he provide any data to back-up his assertions?

Shukla is using his journalistic licence to misinform and mislead.

We should not dishonour any pimps by putting Shukla in their company.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby SaiK » 02 Nov 2011 02:37

does not he pay attention to politics as well? our babooze have said we have already engaged with one country on the 5h gen, and this MRCA is not stealth related by requirements?

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Craig Alpert » 02 Nov 2011 04:38

here's some numbers for all you kids out there debating about Tiffy vs Rafale

Image


Nato operations in Libya by country

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby MarcH » 02 Nov 2011 05:06

I'm kinda sceptical about the relevance of the Libyan arms demo. India doesn't face a third world country with 60ies vintage equipment. The worst case scenario is a two front war against Pakistan and China.
Fighting Flanker hordes is what the Tiffy has been designed for. Several stories have surfaced over the years, that Tiffy is at an advantage in the high and fast flight regime. The Leh trials, Singapore trials the story from that Luftwaffe pilot. He even gave a number: above 20k ft the Tiffy is the aircraft of choice (even compared to Rafale).

That beeing said, I still think the Rafale should be picked. It's (probably) cheaper, there is this Kaveri with ECO core and this insanely expansive M2K upgrade. The only way I can imagine some sane person would pay that much for such a lousy upgrade (no new engines, no AESA upgrade) is to cross finance the MMRCA deal.
It is the only explanation to me. This way Dassault is able to bid really low, and the IAF get's an aircraft. And with the combined weapons package, the IAF may even save some more rupees and get's at least a little bit commonality between it's fighters. Without such creative accounting I have my doubts IAF will ever get a MMRCA.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby nachiket » 02 Nov 2011 05:10

MarcH wrote:...insanely expansive M2K upgrade. The only way I can imagine some sane person would pay that much for such a lousy upgrade (no new engines, no AESA upgrade) is to cross finance the MMRCA deal.
It is the only explanation to me. This way Dassault is able to bid really low, and the IAF get's an aircraft. ...

Err, regardless of how that is spun, it would mean collusion between the IAF and Dassault to rig the MMRCA deal. Best not to make such assumptions.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Taygibay » 02 Nov 2011 05:12

Nice pic, Craig old man, LOL

Just this :
currently operating from French Air Bases of Avord, Nancy, St Dizier, Dijon and Istres, as well as Evreux and Orléans for planes engaged in logistics.


should be enough to discredit your generalist newspaper, mate.

Main base for France were Solenzara in Corsica and Suda in Greece where
M-2000 both D and -5 were co-located with the Qatari M2Ks.
In addition, the CDG CVG provided sorties for a month plus.
In addition, SCALPs were fired which are considered cruise missiles
in the UK. Why did they not count then?

Besides which the sorties are not broken down by plane type.

Here :
http://www.defense.gouv.fr/operations/autres-operations/operation-harmattan-libye/actualites/libye-fin-des-operations-de-la-coalition-en-libye

where one reads :
Les moyens qui étaient encore déployés sur zone (3 Mirage 2000D à La Sude en Grèce, 5 Rafale et un drone à Sigonella en Italie, un bâtiment aviso, commandant Birot ) ont terminé leurs missions au profit de l’OTAN aujourd’hui.

"The means that were still dispatched on zone ( 3 Mirage 2000D at La Suda in Greece, 5 Rafale and one drone at Sigonella in Italy, one aviso type vessel Commandant Birot ) finished their missions for NATO today."

Getting your mili infos from tabloids may just not cut it, huh? :rotfl:

Good night all, Tay.
Last edited by Taygibay on 02 Nov 2011 05:59, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Katare » 02 Nov 2011 05:47

eklavya wrote:
Katare wrote:Whn it comes to credentials most here would not even qualify to compete in the league that Shukla gets to play.....

I strongly disagree with his arguments but do see the merits and points he is making.


What are Shukla's credentials to argue for/against F-35 / Rafale / Typhoon?

What does Shukla know about the J-20?

What does Shukla know about the FGFA/PAK-FA?

Is he a test pilot?

Is he an aerospace engineer?

Does he have any experience in aircraft / aircraft systems evaluation?

Did he provide any data to back-up his assertions?

Shukla is using his journalistic licence to misinform and mislead.

We should not dishonour any pimps by putting Shukla in their company.


Replace shukla in your questions with your name and answer the questions first and than see if you understand what I was trying to say......

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Kovy » 02 Nov 2011 07:52

Craig Alpert wrote:here's some numbers for all you kids out there debating about Tiffy vs Rafale

Image


Nato operations in Libya by country



As Taygibay said, this is a very misleading chart.

It does not include the Charles de Gaule aircraft carrier which should add
2000 more men, 20 more fighters, 2 more Awacs and around 900 sorties to the french count

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Ganesh_S » 02 Nov 2011 08:40

well there are key issues which may conflict in a comparative analysis between the eurobirds performance in libya and the MMRCA evaluation process. one important issue is the threat perception which is entirely different between the two combat zones, partly because of the geographical landscape in our northen front and the level of sophistication in terms of technology and skills in our neighbourhood. The point i am trying to make is how credible can libyan performance of eurobirds be in terms of determining which bird would be more suitable from our threat perspective. Is there a possibility that IAF is looking for specific roles to be performed by the chosen platform ?

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Singha » 02 Nov 2011 08:48

there were no a2a fights over libya. hence that regime remains unexplored in real life.
if libya had a couple squadrons of competently flown Su27 then we could have seen some action on day1-2 before "global pawa" strikes by B1's using JDAMs and JSOWs would surely have wrecked the airfields and hangers beyond repair. just 3 of these flying from montana (?) took out a huge munitions base in shaba now pockmarked with craters like the moon...add to that 100s of tomahawks fired by a converted ohio SSBN would be retargeted to airbases.

while kids fight, the big dog growls and ends the contest in a couple days of 100% cardio levels.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Taygibay » 02 Nov 2011 08:50

Of course, Ganesh_S ( great Indian nick BTW :D )!

Which is why I asked repeatedly for an assesment of IAF needs
in order to determine which candidate was best suited.
I do understand that the IAF does not make public its battle plans.
Yet without those, the MMRCA is tough to gauge.

So that in the meanwhile I would tend to favor the most complete
contender and Libya ( once again * ) showed which that was.

Good night all, Tay.

*How many EFs over A-Stan again? :-?

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Ganesh_S » 02 Nov 2011 09:37

Taygibay wrote:Of course, Ganesh_S ( great Indian nick BTW :D )!

Which is why I asked repeatedly for an assesment of IAF needs
in order to determine which candidate was best suited.
I do understand that the IAF does not make public its battle plans.
Yet without those, the MMRCA is tough to gauge.

So that in the meanwhile I would tend to favor the most complete
contender and Libya ( once again * ) showed which that was.

Good night all, Tay.

*How many EFs over A-Stan again? :-?


You are absolutely right in saying that IAF does not disclose all its needs or plans publicly and i beleive that trying to provide an assesment without significant amount of classified details doesnt justify our arguments. similarly the question of How many EF's over afghanistan doesnt conclude much, as again what has been acheived in afghanistan doesn't nessarily solve IAF needs as it would presumably already have the capabilities to preform similar combat operations (exceptions being carrier borne operations which the mig 29 k's may eventually fullfill). The least we can do is to speculate on critical aspects of a future combat scenario which the IAF is likely to be involved.


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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby eklavya » 02 Nov 2011 13:26

Katare wrote:Replace shukla in your questions with your name and answer the questions first and than see if you understand what I was trying to say......


Katare, our friend Ajai Shukla is loudly proclaiming his views on which jet the IAF should buy, which jet it should not, and that the J-20 is superior to the Rafale/Typhoon. He is doing all of this without any facts or figures to back up his views. So, the questions have to be answered by Shukla.

In case you did not notice, I am not the one trying to tell the IAF what to do, but Shukla thinks he knows better than the professionals in the IAF. To question the IAF's professional judgment, Shukla needs to demonstrate that he knows what he is talking about.

As a reader of his article, I have every right to ask what his competence is to make such strident claims on such a complex topic.

So, you may have to have another go at explaining exactly what you were trying to say.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Philip » 02 Nov 2011 15:15

Nick:Transfer,not production..of a sqd. or two of rafales from the French assets.The same was done with the SU-30s,when existing twin-seat Flankers were first supplied to the IAF and then replaced by more capable aircraft progressively.If we can get at least one sqd. from the French within a year,our pilots and techies can gain aheadstart until the fuly capable aircraft arrive.I'm sure that the French can also ramp up production to at least 16 a year.It will be more difficult for the EF nations to do the same,as their production has to first finish the large Saudi orders,apart from existing orders for allies, before any deliveries to new customers.

Darshaan: If you read my posts carefully,and from your comments,it is clear that you haven't,I have always advocated "horses for courses".Unlike A Shukla,who has blinkers on-can only see the JSF and hasn't even got his facts right,I advocate and recommend,not like him decry the entire MMRCA acquisition acting like the JSF's pimp.If you read my posts you will see that I welcomed the C-130s and wanted even more even before the IAF announced their need,the Hawk aeons ago a decade before the IAF took a decision,and the recent Apache decision as well.The P-8I decision only with a query about the inability of it to perform "low and slow" anti-sub ops,requiring anti-sub torpedos with wing-kits,and the vastly superior range and endurance of the Bears,which fortunately the IN are not pensioning off but extending their lifespan with mid-life repairs.

My analyses has been objective, based upon open as much open source and inside info wherever avaiable. Here are some hard facts.

Reg. the M-2000 vs MIG-29 capability at Kargil,it wasn't too long ago when Shiv and others posted the Vayu article by retd. AM Masand,where he described the IAF's inside evaluation of the two,pitting them against each other.The MIG-29 trounced the M-2000 in air-to-air combat,time and time again,shocking the Mirage afficiandos.However,the MIG-29 was meant for air combat to defeat the F-16 and other wstern aircraft,not meant originally for the multi-role task.The Soviets/Russians had other dedciated aircraft for this role,namely the SU-24 and the SU-27 Flanker was developed into the fab SU-30MKI for India.The MIrage-2000 was also meant right from the start to peform the strike role too,including that of N-strike in French colours.It is widely believed that some of our M-2000s also are meant for the same role.

Now back to AS and his ingnorance about the JSF.AWST recently had quoted official reports that the JSF delays was setting back first production deliveries for allies to 2017. The British have abandoned the STOVL version and only the USMC are hanging on as they will require replacements for the huge inventory of Harriers aboard their amphibious warfare flat-tops.The OZ air force see their deliveries pushed back to 2020 realistically and are again looking at buying more F-18SHs as an interim solution.Other US allies in the Asia-Pacific region are looking at a wide range of options including the two Euro-canards and the F-15SE with its AESA radar.The US is also under pressure from Israel to deliver JSFs to it first.Therefore,where will the timely deliveries of JSFs to the IAF come from?

Secondly,the enormous cost of the JSF,coming in at least $125M apiece,is also frightening the US's allies who had expected it to cost under $100m.In these days of great economic stress and another recession in the offing,numbers of JSFs on option for US allies has dramatically reduced.I mentioned the RN who have abandoned the STOVL version along with a lower number of aircraft too as they have also dumped one of their QE carriers and require only about 40+.If sold to India at $125m apiece,it would cost twice as much as an indigenously built SU-30MKI,which the Indian Express in its front-page item today happily informed us of the flight testing of the very first SU-30MKI built entirely with Indian raw material at a cost of...$50-60M only! This cost of an SU-30MKI is also expected to be even below the price of an inferior MMRCA fighter on offer and the Super-Flanker being developed to carry Brahmos and possess an AESA radar will cost not more than either of the two Eurocanards.This is the only point of note in AS's diatribe against the MMRCA acquisition.This is why I've all along said that if the IAF wanted to merely keep numbers healthy,we should've lumped for more upgraded multi-role MIG-29/35s,which the IN are acquiring -MIG- 29Ks,at a cost of about $40M apiece.Unfortunately,France stopped production of the mirage-2000,which was the iAF's iniitial preference.Or if a western bird was wanted ,to acquire western technology,the Gripen would've been an excellent choice especially as the Swedes have offered us very handsome TOT,which unfortunately is too close to the requirements of the LCA and therefore dumped,as if acquired and with further delays of the LCA,that project would end up the same way as the HF-24.

Thirdly,the actual capability of the JSF and the threat from the Chinese fighter is also a moot point.We have in the JV with the Russians,the FGFA which will definitely enter service this decade and for which we have already planned to acquire between 200-250 of the same at a cost of approx. $100m.This aircraft,twin-engined against the single-engined JSF,will have a better perfomance especially in terms of paylaod,range and perhaps even its ASEA radar,coming in that too at 25% less in cost! Unless the Chinese have taken a giant leap in aaerospace technology,authoritative aviation analysts say that they will face large hudles in developing the advanced engines and AESA radars apart from advanced weaponry to go with the aircraft.They may have stolen stealth tech in the form of composite tech and materials obtained from downed US aircraft and UCAVs,passed on to them by the Pakis,and from their industrial espionage,but most analysts say that the Chinese stealth bird will be inferior to both the Raptor,JSF as well as the FGFA.There is no way that the Russians are going to sell the Chinese their stealth tech,as they have a sole JV with India for the same,as well as creating another competitor for the aircraft which they hope to build upto 1000+.

Apart from this,AS has forgottn that the entire PLAAF inventory will not be made up of their J-20s and will comprise of aircraft that will in technology and capability be 4th-gen at the most.More importantly will be the large numbers of reverse-engineered SU-27s,which are inferior to Indian MKIs.It is the numerical strength of the PLAAF equipped with modern 4th-gen aircraft that will be a greater threat than its 5th-gen fighter,as the PLAAF will be able to deploy large numbers of them in any spat with India,more too if it as we fear part of a joint dragon-pig campaign.A war-gaming study found that even the Raptor would face severe difficulties when faced with overwhelming numbers of Flankers in the Pacific region and that the US would have a hard time defending Taiwan from its islnd bases.This is why to me the crucial factor in the acquisition of the MMRCA is how cost-effective and capable will these 120 aircraft be when faced with the overwhelming superiority in numbers that the Sino-Paki axis possesses,as the high cost of acquisition has to be set off with acquisitions of a cheaper complemntary aircraft which was expected to be the great Indian hope the LCA.The IAF needs a fleet of 1000 aircraft if it is to meet the joint Sino-Pak challenge ,which now has a maritime dimension as well as a larger role for India in the Central Asian region to protect our interests in Afghanistan.

Here's more of the campaign touting for the JSF!
http://news.in.msn.com/national/article ... id=5560765

US offers India the Joint Strike Fighter, top defence technology
Although the US lost out in the bid to sell India 126 multi-role combat jets, it has offered New Delhi "top-of-the-line technology", including "the best in the world" Joint Strike Fighter (JSF).

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby SaiK » 02 Nov 2011 19:53


big time OT! should go into another thread or a new thread.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Taygibay » 02 Nov 2011 20:09

@ Ganesh_S
similarly the question of How many EF's over afghanistan doesnt conclude much,


Of course, it was but a "pique" at those who conclude from the EF's
use in Libya that it is as good as the Rafale when it was in fact not
used in even 20% of the capacities exhibited by Dassault's AC.
The Typhoon aficionados were prompt to point out back then that
the Raffy in A-stan began in about the same role as the Tyffie over
Libya, which was then seen as too little and has suddenly becomed
"flawless" :?: :?: :?:

This put apart, your call is very justified :
The least we can do is to speculate on critical aspects of a future combat scenario which the IAF is likely to be involved.


My reluctance to do that myself is born of a lack of sufficient knowledge
as to the IAF's vision of a conflict with its most probable opponent, China,
but I will give it a try on your mark if it is remembered that I am more
than willing, even expecting, to be corrected by those who know best.

The PLAAF shows :
Aircraft
Bomber/attack: 600
Fighter: 1,300
AWACS: 4
Large transport: 80
Tanker: 10
Special mission: 30
Surface-to-Air Missile
Manpower: 210,000
SAM launcher: 500
AA gun: 16,000
*1

A breakdown by type gives us :
Currently the PLAAF and PLA Naval Aviation operate a mixed fighter fleet consisting of both older aircraft fielded in the 1980s, and newer designs introduced in the 1990s and later. The thousands of J-6 (MiG-19 Farmer) fighters that once made up the fighter fleet have been retired. The current inventory is composed primarily of third- and fourth-generation fighters and fighter-bombers, including 800~1,000 J-7 (MiG-21 Fishbed) and J-8II fighters, 76 Russian-built Su-27 fighters, 95~116 Chinese-assembled J-11 fighters, 76 Russian Su-30MKK multirole fighters, and some 60~80 Chinese indigenous J-10 multirole fighters.
*1

The IAF shows :
Fighter and multi-role combat aircraft
Sukhoi Su-30 MKI is IAF's prime air superiority fighter ("Tip Of The Spear") jointly developed by Russia's Sukhoi and India's Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL).
The fighter aircraft in the IAF inventory are the primary means to achieve and maintain air supremacy over the battle field. These aircraft are designed for air-to-air combat in order to achieve their goals.
The Sukhoi Su-30MKI is the IAF's primary air superiority fighter with the capability to conduct strike missions. The IAF have placed an order for a total of 272 Su-30MKIs[98] of which 159 are in service as of June 2011.[99]
The Mikoyan MiG-29 known as Baaz (Hindi for Hawk) is the IAF's dedicated air superiority fighter and forms the second line of defence for the IAF after the Sukhoi Su-30MKI. The IAF operates 69 MiG-29s, all of which are currently being upgraded to the MiG-29UPG standard.[100]
The Dassault Mirage 2000, known as Vajra (Sanskrit for Thunderbolt) in Indian service, is the IAF's primary multirole fighter. The IAF currently operates 51 Mirage 2000Hs.[101]
The Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-21 serves as an Interceptor aircraft in the IAF. The IAF currently operates about 200 MiG-21s, 121 of which have been upgraded to MiG-21 Bison standard.[102] While the MiG-21 Bison is likely to be in service till 2017, the remaining aircraft are expected to be phased out by 2013. The MiG-21s are planned to be replaced by the indigenously built HAL Tejas


And AtoG :
The SEPECAT Jaguar known as Shamsher and the Mikoyan MiG-27 known as Bahadur (Hindi for Valiant) serve as the IAF's primary ground attack force.[105] The IAF currently operates 139 Jaguars[106] and over 100 MiG-27s.




So 900+- Fishbed, 75 SU-27 and 105 J-11, 75 SU_30MKK and 70 J-10 in yellow
VS 190 Fishbed and incoming TEJAS, 69 MIG-29 and 51 Mirage 2000, 160 SU-30MKI
and 135 Jaguars plus 100 Mig-27s in green

Those numbers seem to favor the "pandas".
Although 160 MKI to 145+ MKK/J10 favors India;
and so does 235 Jags/Floggers to 180 J-11/Floggers.

The problem rests on those 900+ Fishbeds against 200 + Tejas on your side. *2
Of course, even going fom 126 to 180 MMRCA still does not give us an equality.
A finer analysis however shows that if the IAF needs to keep some squadrons
available for Pakistan, the Chinese need even more to counter the arc of possible
foes that includes Japan, South Korea and the US Pacific fleet.
In short, the number of threats is much greater for China than for India.

The LCA goes in slowly and most agree that the Mk2 is the final objective.
The MMRCA having been delayed, its numbers are needed to complement
an already existing lack.

Let's now understand that the Typhoon is the best choice if all that is expected
is to fight those yellow Fishbeds in air superiority. The ratio comes down quite
quickly as I trust the qualitative strength of the EF would bring the quantitative
advantage of the J-7/8 down and possibly down hard.

On the other hand, the abilities shown by the Rafale not only also allow us to
pit it at the same fleet but add a few other possibilities.
The Rafale can do its own SEAD which would help entering Chinese air space.
The Rafale can do deep strikes ( especially on account of the ground mapping
and terrain following possibilities of the RBE2 which the EF lacks ).
The Rafale uses Spectra from self-protection to target acquisition and, which is
more important, can do all this AT ONCE. *3

It is all well to down enemy fighters with a great ratio.
It is all better to destroy the enemy's air fields and maim its ability to take flight.
There's quite a choice of them to target 8) *4

The Rafale offers those possibilities and offers them just about now.
Part of that may stem from a simple difference in timeframes for
developing the two contenders but it is so, that's all.

Then come the technological and industrial aspects which may change
the prospects although the relationship between France and India seems
to be a good point for the Raffy too.

This is my starting position on the MMRCA as it stands now.
Please add and correct to this view, guys.

Good day all, Tay.

*1
http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/default.asp

*2 I'm eluding the PAK-FA to J-20 "thang" as these are not in service yet and
the very purpose of the MMRCA seems to be to fill the "present" gap.

*3 The famed/infamous omnirole as shown here :
For example, in a strike mission, we had the number two of the four-ship flight
dropping six bombs ( AASM - modular air to ground weapon. French GPS/INU
[Inertial Navigation Unit] guided bomb ) and firing three Mica air-to-air missiles
in one minutes and six seconds. Two threatening hostiles were killed, while the
six AASMs reached their six respective DPIs ( Direct Point of Impacts ) around
30 nautical miles ( 48 km ) away.


That is out of the article Justifiably Proud that can be found in the #265 April 2010 edition
of the excellent Air Forces Monthly magazine ( which I recommend ) under the penmanship
of one Jon Lake which can hardly be construed as a Rafale fanboy. :)

*4
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_People's_Liberation_Army_Air_Force_airbases

P.S. @ Philip
The transfer may not be either needed nor even proper as the present Rafale F3
still lack the AESA RBE2.
I repeat that the Dassault production line is able to deliver up to 30 fighters per year
and that the output rates have so far been dictated by French finances as optimal around
8 planes yearly but brought up to 11 on account of a promise of sustainability of it made
to Dassault by the French govt in case of lack of exports. As a matter of fact Dassault
would prefer the minimum to be 14 planes.
The RBE2 AESA are being produced as we write and their induction in the line should even
be in advance of phase to the last of the third order instead of waiting for the fourth slice.
The retrofit would thus be avoided if those were to be diverted to the ACs for an Indian
delivery and those could thus be sped up from the initial 2013 date to about mid-2012.
Next summer in short :D
Last edited by Taygibay on 02 Nov 2011 21:17, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby GeorgeWelch » 02 Nov 2011 20:32

Taygibay wrote:I repeat that the Dassault production line is able to deliver up to 30 fighters per month
and that the output rates have so far been dictated by French finances as optimal around
8 planes monthly but brought up to 11 on account of a promise of sustainability of it made
to Dassault by the French govt in case of lack of exports. As a matter of fact Dassault
would prefer the minimum to be 14 planes.


I think you mean per YEAR.

GeorgeWelch
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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby GeorgeWelch » 02 Nov 2011 20:44

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/the-d ... ale-t.html

Place your MMRCA bets: Rafale, Typhoon or (surprise!) F-35?

If US officials could dream, the perfect scenario would perhaps unfold like this: The IAF official opens the Rafale and Typhoon bids on 4 November, and instantly passes out from sticker-shock. After the official is revived with a nasal blast of cumin powder, the MMRCA acquisition process is put back on hold. The next two or three years pass uneventfully, and finally the IAF decides to buy the F-35 sole-source as the only available fighter on the market possessing a combination of stealth and sensor fusion.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby kit » 02 Nov 2011 21:11

If IAF can get the Raptor as the high end mix of the equation , then maybe it should consider the F35 as the low end requirement. Can that happen ? .... but definitely OT !

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Taygibay » 02 Nov 2011 21:16

Thank you George, good sir, correction made.


And kit, no one gets the Raptor, period.
Not only is it not on offer for export but
its production line is no longer active.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Singha » 02 Nov 2011 21:47

the supply of hashish from their munna allies have breached the walls of respected mags now. its strong, its good and its available

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby koti » 02 Nov 2011 21:48

Those numbers seem to favor the "pandas".
Although 160 MKI to 145+ MKK/J10 favors India;
and so does 235 Jags/Floggers to 180 J-11/Floggers.

The problem rests on those 900+ Fishbeds against 200 + Tejas on your side.


Good comparison my friend, I have a few observations though.

PLAAF has around 700 operational Fishbed type AC against 900.
These are expected to further reduce making room for more MKK and J-11's.

Expecting the EF or Rafale to take care of them is not required as the time frame MMRCA will be arriving will have these fighters seeing their near end of service and thus far lesser operational numbers.
So, the MMRCA should be able to hold well against AC like J11b and MKK.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby ramana » 02 Nov 2011 21:54

F-35 offer is not serious at this time. Read the language!

However chatterati want to scream loud to get attention.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby koti » 02 Nov 2011 22:07

Actually it does sir.

A/c commonality apart, I think we should go ahead and procure enough aircraft to fill in a few squadrons like the Mirage 2000s.
We can have a first hand experience with these supposedly super fighters and put in a good amount of input for the AMCA :roll: .
Since these will arrive sometime like 5 years(?) before the arrival of FGFA, we can have more mature tactics involving stealth and anti-stealth.

However JSF cannot do what MMRCA is intended to do. Hence, IMO we don't need to mix these two things do.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby SaiK » 02 Nov 2011 22:29

hashish can smell half way round the world, and pizzas and torilinis can smell bangalore roads. italians are economically down, and could be role switching going for next generation of sicilians al capones ties with jasoos that is been hailed by subverted desh media afsars.

hey, that is my part of the OT.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Ganesh_S » 02 Nov 2011 23:48

To begin with, honestly appreciate the amount of effort you put into this debate.

Of course, it was but a "pique" at those who conclude from the EF's
use in Libya that it is as good as the Rafale when it was in fact not
used in even 20% of the capacities exhibited by Dassault's AC.
The Typhoon aficionados were prompt to point out back then that
the Raffy in A-stan began in about the same role as the Tyffie over
Libya, which was then seen as too little and has suddenly becomed
"flawless" :?: :?: :?:


I do agree that the capabilities demonstrated by rafale were far more than the typhoon which was primarily designed keeping A to A combat in mind, this essentially means there is a preliminary tradeoff here. Having said this neither afghanistan nor libya would have offered any prospects of stiff resistence in the A to A arena for these platforms to be tested.

My reluctance to do that myself is born of a lack of sufficient knowledge
as to the IAF's vision of a conflict with its most probable opponent, China,
but I will give it a try on your mark if it is remembered that I am more
than willing, even expecting, to be corrected by those who know best.



Fair enough, lets first assume china to be a prominent threat first. Now consider a war scenario within a highly probable framework by trying to determine who retains first strike, IMO and by your analogy none would, cause china needs to retain its airpower against US, korea, japan etc whereas IAF and india would be happy to maintain a status quo. From here lets assume (even though unlikely) it would be in china's interest to break this status quo and hence would initiate a first strike. under such circumstances Rafale's SEAD and other A to G capabilities would be secondary in prominence to eurofighter's proclaimed A to A capabilities. while on the other hand IAF has committed to super sukhoi's as its strike platform which IMO is china specific in case of any eventuality.

similarly it may be the other way round in rafale's favour when it comes to pakistan, where it isnt a number game in terms of inventory hence tade off's between A to A's and A to G's may be acceptable and SEAD capability may be crucial considering a high probability of an first strike option.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Taygibay » 03 Nov 2011 00:16

So, the MMRCA should be able to hold well against AC like J11b and MKK.


Thnx for the update complement, koti.

Then we can envision this :
2) Redesigned air inlets of engine intakes to reduce the radar cross section, this coupled with the adoption of composite material, and application of radar absorbent material has reduced the radar cross section (RCS) of 15 square meters of Su-27SK to just >3 square meters of J-11B.

3) Full air-to-surface / sea capability is added and J-11B is able to launch various precision guided air-to-surface and air-to-sea munitions.

6) Improved radar. The new radar is able to track 8 targets at the same time, and engage 4 of the 8 tracked simultaneously. When used against large surface target such as a destroyer, the maximum range of the radar was in excess of 350 km. The range against aerial targets was not disclosed, but it would be definitely much shorter, as in all radars. The Chinese official report claims that the radar is better than the 147x/KLJ-X radar family, but stop short of identifying the exact type. Contrary to many erroneous comments by many domestic Chinese sources, which mistakenly claimed that the radar had adopted a passive phased array antenna, the official claims of many Chinese governmental sources such as technical journals and publications have revealed that the radar still adopted a slotted planar array antenna.
*1

which sounds like a Raffy on point 3.
As for the 3 square meters RCS and slotted planar array antenna radar, both Eurocanards beat that.

As for the MKK, the IAF will be able to practice tactics of engagement
against its own MKI as soon as it gets its MMRCAs, the sooner the better. :wink:

@ Ganesh_S Thnx too and
As answered to koti, I believe that the Eurofighter may have an advantage
in AtoA when it gets the Captor E based on size of the antennas but I also
believe that the Rafale has enough abilities in this domain if not as much
as some report from exercises would acknowledge.
To be fair play, let's give an edge to the Typhoon in AtoA then.
In such a case, the EF would be best in a Chinese strike countering role
while the Rafale would be second best there while as you suggested, it would
be first notch in a Paki scenario with the EF falling way behind.
The name of the acquisition program being M-MULTIROLE-CA, it still seems to
balanced towards Dassault's plane.
Besides, the Chinese should also try for land penetration in a first strike case
and the ability to do both AtoA and AtoG at the same time should come in handy.

Good afternoon all, Tay.

*1
http://asian-defence.blogspot.com/2011/10/chinas-j-11-fighter-jet-modernization.html
Last edited by Taygibay on 03 Nov 2011 03:10, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Neshant » 03 Nov 2011 01:21

The US needs to STEP UP its lobbying efforts to get the JSF in the competition.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby nachiket » 03 Nov 2011 01:26

Neshant wrote:The US needs to STEP UP its lobbying efforts to get the JSF in the competition.

What do you think shukla saab's article is?

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Taygibay » 03 Nov 2011 03:13

But, but Neshant and nachiket, why would India want the JSF?

No real ToT, fat chance they'll let you manufacture parts and
the AMCA is to provide similar capacities?

Go AMCA go 8)

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby PratikDas » 03 Nov 2011 03:53

The 600+ point technical evaluation of the MMRCA candidates is being heralded as a tough but respectable achievement in its own right. If the notion of the F-35 coming in from the flanks is even entertained, it would have to go through the same technical evaluation. Albeit, that evaluation could be be performed quickly with only one player in the field, but it would have to be done nevertheless and it would take time.

Vying for the limelight 3 days before the bids from the other players are opened is just a hopeless attempt by the US to manufacture yet another reason to be unhappy with India and an attempt to generate sounds bites for Obama's next speech, in Chicago perhaps, about jobs being lost to "Bangalore".

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby nachiket » 03 Nov 2011 04:15

Taygibay wrote:But, but Neshant and nachiket, why would India want the JSF?


Never said we did. I was just pointing out that the Lobbying efforts were in full swing, as seen in the article in question.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Taygibay » 03 Nov 2011 05:01

Agreed to PratikDas and oops, sorry to nachiket.
:)

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Victor » 03 Nov 2011 05:19

A more pointed title on the F-35 offer:
US offers India partnership in developing most advanced fighter craft
The US today offered India partnership in the development of the world's most advanced flying machine, the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby sohels » 03 Nov 2011 05:30

Here's the actual U.S. Department of Defense report:
Report to Congress on U.S.-India Security Cooperation

Our efforts over the past ten years have focused on relationship-building and establishing the foundation for a long-term partnership. The strong ties between our two militaries reflect this. The United States remains committed to a broad defense trade relationship that enables transfers of some of our most advanced technologies.


We recognize that India is also seeking to build its own indigenous defense industry, and is looking for the best technologies to use in its defense sector. The United States wants to develop deeper defense industrial cooperation with India, including a range of cooperative research and development activities. The United States is committed to providing India with top-of-the-line technology.


The United States has taken many steps in recent years to facilitate science and technology and research and development cooperation with India. In so doing, we have signaled our unambiguous intent to pursue cooperative opportunities on increasingly sophisticated systems. As our relationship continues to mature, we expect co-development of armaments to become a reality.


Sounds purposeful, but vague.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Taygibay » 03 Nov 2011 06:22

LOL
Our efforts over the past ten years have focused on relationship-building ...

Meaning that before there wasn't one and still may not be?


:P

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby RamaY » 03 Nov 2011 06:37

Victor wrote:A more pointed title on the F-35 offer:
US offers India partnership in developing most advanced fighter craft
The US today offered India partnership in the development of the world's most advanced flying machine, the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter


This goes with the ricemati comments on nuke deal. I see desperation when I read this with Acharyaji's post on 2050 economic scenario.

At 2.5% of GDP rate Indian defense budget would be ~$400b region by 2030-40 timeframe and india might still keep at least 1:2 advantage in PPP terms....


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