India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Part 3

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India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Part 3

Postby Tanaji » 06 Jan 2012 23:36

Please continue here

Link to old thread:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5934&start=4000

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Viv S » 07 Jan 2012 00:10

kelesis wrote:Viv,
Gallois and EADS were not aware of the Typhoon offer to AUE and learnt it by the press...

http://www.marianne2.fr/blogsecretdefense/L-Eurofighter-aux-Emirats-cachoteries-anglaises-actualise_a430.html


The British BAE offer for EFs to UAE yes. That wasn't the point. Point is that Gallois has been actively involved with Eurofighter's export campaign and has not been a hurdle for it, despite what his background as a former director of Dassault would suggest.

France can block any offset of EADS if it is not in its own interest. EADS is a political company, for example Germany wants to sell the Daimler's stake to the state but according to the shareholder agreement France can buy it in priority... If France doesn't want to waive its priority right, it will control EADS. Germany will have to negociate with french gov... In addition France will not allow eurocopter, astrium or airbus offsets in a Typhoon deal if it is against its interests. Indian gov is well aware of this and that is why I think the offset package of EF is not so good.


Assuming that France does indeed exercise veto rights over EADS activities, why doesn't it simply block the EADS offer of the Eurofighter to India? Its clearly not in its own interest. Also, what differentiates Cassidian from Airbus, Astrium and Eurocopter? After all it is partially French owned as well (EADS' stake in MBDA is vested in Cassidian).

With regard to the offsets package not being good - BAE and EADS Cassidian between them have a far far larger industrial size and unlike Dassault both see an expansion in India as a key part of their long term goals.

Also reposting an earlier quote -

Louis Gallois (EADS) - Off-sets are not an obstacle for us. Our will to invest in India is high and the off-set factor is not a big constraint.

Charles Edelstenne (Dassault) - [Offsets] “compensation is really very tough. It will be very difficult to answer to this request.”.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby kelesis » 07 Jan 2012 00:57

The British BAE offer for EFs to UAE yes. That wasn't the point. Point is that Gallois has been actively involved with Eurofighter's export campaign and has not been a hurdle for it, despite what his background as a former director of Dassault would suggest.


Not at all! the big issue is that BAE can offer the Eurofighter to a country without any discussion with EADS... Whatever the reasons, that says a lot.

Assuming that France does indeed exercise veto rights over EADS activities, why doesn't it simply block the EADS offer of the Eurofighter to India? Its clearly not in its own interest. Also, what differentiates Cassidian from Airbus, Astrium and Eurocopter? After all it is partially French owned as well (EADS' stake in MBDA is vested in Cassidian)


Again you don't understand the nature of EADS. It is not a classical company, it is a political company. EADS is governed by states not by private investors.

Eurofighter = not a french company, no french job, no french technology. France can not say anything
Astrium, Eurocopter = mainly french (jobs, technologies, first customer)
MBDA = mainly under french control (via EADS)
Airbus = france/germany equal control

With regard to the offsets package not being good - BAE and EADS Cassidian between them have a far far larger industrial size and unlike Dassault both see an expansion in India as a key part of their long term goals.


Offsets are offer or/and allow by states, not companies.
Dassault is just 30% of the Rafale, Thales and Safran are very big companies (not to mention Dassault System and many others like DCNS). Considering the big stake of EADS in Dassault Aviation, the French state can negociate with India offsets in Eurocopter or Astrium. After all, EADS stake in Dassault is biggest than its stake in Eurofighter...

Louis Gallois (EADS) - Off-sets are not an obstacle for us. Our will to invest in India is high and the off-set factor is not a big constraint.

Charles Edelstenne (Dassault) - The Indian request for tender including offsets [were] “very tough”.


I watched the press conference, Edelstenne said these words with a vey big smile... He also said Eurofighter is an industrial disaster, this time with a very serious face.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Indranil » 07 Jan 2012 02:06

Arthuro wrote:For now, it seems that the Rafale keeps an operational advantage over the Eurofighter, the Indian Air Force put the french aircraft ahead of its European rival.

I have been supporting Rafale for a while ... I have also been following the MMRCA saga for a while ... but nowhere have I found a single instance where IAF has in anyway shown its favoritism towards any of the planes ... in fact it is part of the agreement that the evaluations will not be made public.

So I have no idea how respected newspapers just go ahead and print whatever nationalistic favoritism they might have ... and pass it as the opinion of other organizations!!!

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby arthuro » 07 Jan 2012 02:32

They simply got this information through industry sources. That has nothing to do with nationalism...What would be the point as it would not change the outcome of the MMRCA competition ?

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Indranil » 07 Jan 2012 02:45

arthuro ... that is the ubiquitous veil that the reporters use ... an industry source who can't be named!

Why is it so difficult to pass one's opinion as one's own? The reporter/editor/industry source find/feel that Rafale is better than EF ... so say it like that ... why badge it as IAF's sentiments?

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Danell » 07 Jan 2012 02:49

these sources confirm what was also said to Shiv Aroor "and selected journalists at Aero India by Indian Air Force officers":

the big European twins, the Dassault Rafale and the Eurofighter Typhoon are the IAF's two most preferred aircraft, and in that order


MMRCA evaluation ranking:
1 Rafale
2 Eurofighter
3 Gripen
4 F18
5 F16
6 Mig 35

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2011/04/m- ... wcase.html
http://livefist.blogspot.com/2011/02/co ... nking.html

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Viv S » 07 Jan 2012 02:57

kelesis wrote:Not at all! the big issue is that BAE can offer the Eurofighter to a country without any discussion with EADS... Whatever the reasons, that says a lot.


Its not forbidden under the MoU signed by the members. Its how BAE sold EFs to Saudi Arabia.

Again you don't understand the nature of EADS. It is not a classical company, it is a political company. EADS is governed by states not by private investors.

Eurofighter = not a french company, no french job, no french technology. France can not say anything
Astrium, Eurocopter = mainly french (jobs, technologies, first customer)
MBDA = mainly under french control (via EADS)
Airbus = france/germany equal control


As it happens, I do understand the nature of EADS, though you've posted a vastly over-simplistic version of the state of affairs.

In any case, none of what you've said answered my question to you. To repeat - what differentiates Cassidian from Airbus, Astrium and Eurocopter? Why is it that France will not block Cassidian offsets bundled with the Eurofighter?


Offsets are offer or/and allow by states, not companies.
Dassault is just 30% of the Rafale, Thales and Safran are very big companies (not to mention Dassault System and many others like DCNS). Considering the big stake of EADS in Dassault Aviation, the French state can negociate with India offsets in Eurocopter or Astrium. After all, EADS stake in Dassault is biggest than its stake in Eurofighter...


Yeeaah... the Indian MoD is NOT negotiating offsets with states. Offsets in the civilian sector, need to be made with a wholly owned subsidiary of the company/s involved in the RFP. Which means the French state cannot under the MoD's terms, offer up offsets in Eurocopter and Astrium. The Indian MoD on the hand, will recognize them under EADS, if it manages to show them as such.

Coming to the second point - where did you get this idea about Dassault being eligible to receive only 30% of the Indian MRCA's contract value?

Thales and Safran just like Selex Galileo, Rolls Royce, MTU, Avio and Indra, account for a limited part of the aircraft contract and are thereby liable only for a limited part of the offset requirements.

I watched the press conference, Edelstenne said these words with a vey big smile... He also said Eurofighter is an industrial disaster, this time with a very serious face.


Huh? You want me to believe he was actually joking and the journalists who reported his remarks - compensation is really very tough. It will be very difficult to answer to this request, misinterpreted good natured humor for fact?

Of course he thinks that the Eurofighter is a disaster - he's the Dassault CEO.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Indranil » 07 Jan 2012 03:08

Danell,

Do you want me to show you a completely different ranking "as told to a select group of journalists by a group of Airforce officials who did not not want to be named"? And from near about the same period?

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Danell » 07 Jan 2012 03:15

indranilroy wrote:Danell,

Do you want me to show you a completely different ranking "as told to a select group of journalists by a group of Airforce officials who did not not want to be named"? And from near about the same period?


Please do it, especially if it is reported by a journalist as famous as Shiv Aroor.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Viv S » 07 Jan 2012 03:25

arthuro wrote:They simply got this information through industry sources. That has nothing to do with nationalism...What would be the point as it would not change the outcome of the MMRCA competition ?


Trouble is there are several articles saying the EF was highest ranked, others saying Rafale was the highest ranked.

And now its looking more and more likely that there was no ranking, that those are just perceptions of different IAF officers involved or in the know. The IAF submitted technical report to the MoD, not a merit list.


That's something Shiv Aroor said originally as well -


Well, here's some stuff that's confirmed true, authoritative, new, and potentially explosive for contenders in the Medium Multirole Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) competition.

... the air force's trial report has been submitted to the MoD, but the latter hasn't approved it yet. The trial report strictly contains a tabulated representation of each contending platform's compliance or otherwise for each of 643 test points. Significantly, the trial report does not quantify the level of compliance of each airplane, but rather leaves this for the MoD to understand. In other words, the trial report has all the data and results, but no recommendations, no merit list, no explicit downselect, no stated eliminations, nothing. Yet, by virtue of the data it presents, everything is implicit. It provides the data. It provides the benchmarks for compliance. The MoD figures out who's in, who's not quite in, who's definitely out. The IAF hasn't put that down. The IAF has submitted a "factual report" -- the rest is upto the MoD. Again, there's been no ranking at any stage.




Coming back to the authenticity of the La Tribune article, I've made no secret of my skepticism about the veracity of reports published in foreign newspapers (which includes British ones not just French articles), for the simple reason that fishing for confidential information in India is a painstaking and slow process. If there are breaks in the story, I'd expect them to come from veteran Indian defence journalists with reliable sources in the IAF or MoD. And French or British articles will almost invariably depend on second hand sources that are inherently unreliable.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Danell » 07 Jan 2012 03:46

Like in all evaluations , there is obviously a ranking based on several criteria and especially according to the importance of these criteria. Without ranking , there is no selection or shortlist.
Regarding the work of the journalists, it is obvious that the latest informations given are the most relevant ... ;)

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Indranil » 07 Jan 2012 04:20

Danell wrote:
indranilroy wrote:Danell,

Do you want me to show you a completely different ranking "as told to a select group of journalists by a group of Airforce officials who did not not want to be named"? And from near about the same period?


Please do it, especially if it is reported by a journalist as famous as Shiv Aroor.


You wanted links ... I am posting them ... Feel free to waste your time on these reports ... how could the French get that Rafale and the British/Germans that Eurofighter leads the same evaluation, garnered from "IAF officials conducting the evaluation" is beyond me :roll:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/01/22/arms-india-eurofighter-idUSLDE60L24R20100122?type=marketsNews
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/industry/defence/8114951/UK-closes-in-on-11bn-fighter-deal.html

I actually like Shiv Aroor and I respect him for the same report that you cited ... he says "These are the poll results of yet another super-unempirical, unscientific poll"... Very few in the IAF will know about the actual rankings and I can assure you that they would lose their jobs if they open their mouths to the journalists at any show ... The journalists will be getting information from friends of these guys (Shiv says, "They claimed that this one ranking was the one that concluded the field evaluation trial report submitted to the MoD") ... Why do you think the government would have let Shiv Aroor to have retained whatever he wrote on his blog if that information did not actually reveal anything ... Take my word ... which plane is actually leading the race is amongst the most guarded secrets of India right now ... Nobody in the know will speak to any insider/journalist at any show.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby shukla » 07 Jan 2012 05:05

India Set To Unleash Raft Of A&D Deals
Aviation week

The first month of the year is expected to bring perhaps the most anticipated decision in current contracting activity—the lowest bidder, and therefore prospective winner, of the Indian air force’s Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) competition (AW&ST Nov. 14, 2011, p. 36). Dassault and EADS Cassidian are jockeying to supply either Rafales or Typhoons, respectively, with the winner expected to provide at least 126 aircraft.

A defense ministry officer said the team scrutinizing the MMRCA bids is expected to select the competitive bid in the third week of January; and if so, the government would attempt to award the contract by March. “It would take something disastrous for 2012 not to be the year of the MMRCA,” he said.

The original request for proposals was released in 2007, and it was once expected to have been awarded by 2011. Still, by some accounts, this is the endgame of a competition that began almost a decade ago (AW&ST Feb. 7, 2011, p. 46).

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby kuldipchager » 07 Jan 2012 07:19

Somebody like it or don't like it.Mig 29K and Mig 35 are devolp by India's funding.
They will not select any off the two birds until Mig 35 starting testing.
Then the deal might be done,then Mig 35 will come through back door.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Singha » 07 Jan 2012 08:07

rather than Mig35 which is a unproven quantity, I would give IN another 50 Mig29K , base them on land in the MH-Guj belt and offload that sector of seaward offense and defence from the IAF. atleast there will be commonality with the INs Mig29K fleet rather than a 3rd Mig29 type in IAF.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby NRao » 07 Jan 2012 08:17

Danell,

For what it is worth, at THIS point in time, any IAF ranking does NOT matter.

Once the "files" were sent to the MoD, BOTH air crafts are equal as far as the MoD and the process is concerned. Just as the technical aspects were of importance to the IAF, it is the cost, political aspects and offsets that are of concern to the GoI (MoD + Mo Finance + etc). Which ever air craft is selected, the IAF cannot cry about it any longer, they have to live with it.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby NRao » 07 Jan 2012 08:36

kuldip chaggar wrote:Somebody like it or don't like it.Mig 29K and Mig 35 are developed by India's funding.
They will not select any off the two birds until Mig 35 starting testing.
Then the deal might be done,then Mig 35 will come through back door.


Not a pleasant topic, but:

Oct 2011 :: Death of Mikoyan

This is the worst case that I have read about. I said this long back, the MiG is gone, I just never saw it is a viable option. Great air craft. But, not a viable one.

BTW, India backed Sukhoi - all the way. Seems like there was and is a far better synergy between the two - ever since the MKI story. Even with the 5th gen one, I can bet that India will play a far larger role.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby SaiK » 07 Jan 2012 09:23

Rather than ranking, how these a/cs fared against IAF's 643 parameters would be more interesting.. Most public domain would like to know that data.. and I doubt IAF will ever give that out.

So, nobody in the world outside those special IAF ranks would know about the rankings.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Philip » 08 Jan 2012 04:35

Viv is quite correct.A few months on after Aero-India,I spoke to a former AM on the MMRCA evaluation,who said that the air force would never give a ranking,1st,2nd, style evaluation,but a comparative statement,listing out how the aircraft performed ,whether it met reqs. or not,etc.This evaluation would however be clear enough for the MOD to decide upon a shortlist.He was certain though that the IAF would choose a twin-engined aircraft,his preference,in the Indian context of flight safety,bird strikes,missions,etc.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby shukla » 08 Jan 2012 04:36

Just MAYBE the Mirage and Mica deals were cleared just in time before the final announcement so the French won't have too much to complain when the contract is awarded to EADS...

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Kakkaji » 08 Jan 2012 04:46

Even though I am a Rafale supporter, I think for political and offset reasons this contract will go to Eurofighter. I don't mind, I just want them to award this contract quickly now. The wait is killing me. :x

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby SaiK » 08 Jan 2012 05:28

:rotfl: Jan 7 2012. 7 days gone since new year, is like 7 years!

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Singha » 08 Jan 2012 10:43

my money is on EADS for this one....air superiority over emerging chinese threats and block52 f-solah is essential both for defence and offense ...and the big captor-E + amraamC7 + aim9X/python5 combo + better fast n high performance of EF has better look n feel imho than rbe2aa + mica IR + mica EM.....bismillah!

it might also be possible to cart around 16 SDB2 on EF and fire from mach1 and 40,000ft to achieve a 100km standoff range against medium threat targets in lieu of AASM and for longer target the StormShadow, KEPD350, SLAM-ER, JASSM and Nirbhay are essential for targeting battery radars of the s300/HQ-xx type. other than nirbhay and crystal maze which is compulsory we can go with whichever is cheapest and longest stick...maybe a mix of SLAM-ER for bulk strikes and cost containment + JASSM for uber high value targets like the gravestone/tombstone/bigbird radars

the skies must be cleared for strike fighters to flow through enmasse and go after chinese tanks, arty and IFV forces...and the bulk of jags, mig27, m2k, mig29, su30, tejas are not as discrete and capable as Rafale in lo-lo-lo so while a 100% rafale force like the French have is fine with the skies and threats not being so clear and still do substantial damage our force matrix in strike pkg is much weaker and needs addl cover...we need a proper 'jharu' to sweep the skies and hostile radars and the Captor-E is it. :twisted:

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby kuldipchager » 08 Jan 2012 10:55

kuldip chaggar wrote:
Somebody like it or don't like it.Mig 29K and Mig 35 are developed by India's funding.
They will not select any off the two birds until Mig 35 starting testing.
Then the deal might be done,then Mig 35 will come through back door.


Not a pleasant topic, but:

Oct 2011 :: Death of Mikoyan

This is the worst case that I have read about. I said this long back, the MiG is gone, I just never saw it is a viable option. Great air craft. But, not a viable one.

BTW, India backed Sukhoi - all the way. Seems like there was and is a far better synergy between the two - ever since the MKI story. Even with the 5th gen one, I can bet that India will play a far larger role.





Evearybody have a right to express his opion*********

Mig 35 will have 5th genration Technology from I/R fighter which will be easy to apply.
And west will hold it back.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby SaiK » 08 Jan 2012 10:57

http://www.eads.com/eads/int/en/news/pr ... trs4d.html
The unique detection performance derives from a multitude of Cassidian's Transmit- and Receive Modules, based on the most recent GalliumNitride (GaN) technology. GaN holds unique electronic characteristics like high power added efficiency and allows for very efficient industrial production processes. Cassidian is the European leader in this technology.

Perhaps this experience and joint venture, could help us both for IAF and IN.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Singha » 08 Jan 2012 11:09

we need help in fielding a local aesa radar for the Tejas and beyond because khan banned the export of EL-2052 technology claiming it was developed using some US parts and under US mil aid funding.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby mayankdr » 08 Jan 2012 11:54

Okay guys, some news form idrw.org about MMRCA shortlist.
Sorry if this has been posted before.
http://idrw.org/?p=6276.
:roll:
Cheers!!

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby chaanakya » 08 Jan 2012 12:23

There is no ranking after the shortlisting on technicals. L1 would be decided in financials and that would include policy considerations as well. UK and Germany are as important as France so govt would have to take a call.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Austin » 08 Jan 2012 12:27

I wont be surprised of Rafale Spares , Weapons and Support end up being expensive if the Mirage upgrade deal has given us any hint for the shape of things to come.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby pragnya » 08 Jan 2012 12:29

the Mig 27s which have had frequent crashes in the recent past have raised a valid question mark over the 'reliability' of these machines. while the 'cost' of loss of a machine is one factor which can somehow be replaced, can it replace the cost of an experienced pilot who has trained for years finetuning tactics for a particular combat mission?? 'every' loss of a Mig 27 adds to a loss which can not be quantified in real terms. besides the number crunch due to the loss of a machine adds to the complexity of 'combat readiness' of the IAF.

while L1 cost over lifetime is the key factor in the selection, won't the cost saved by Mig 27 replacement be taken into account??

this is where Rafale selection, IMO, will become important as only it will be able to replace the Migs besides take load off the underpowered jags till they come with replaced engines.

besides it is no less worthy in A2A!!

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby chaanakya » 08 Jan 2012 12:36

kuldipchager wrote:kuldip chaggar wrote:
Somebody like it or don't like it.Mig 29K and Mig 35 are developed by India's funding.
They will not select any off the two birds until Mig 35 starting testing.
Then the deal might be done,then Mig 35 will come through back door.


Not a pleasant topic, but:

Oct 2011 :: Death of Mikoyan

This is the worst case that I have read about. I said this long back, the MiG is gone, I just never saw it is a viable option. Great air craft. But, not a viable one.

BTW, India backed Sukhoi - all the way. Seems like there was and is a far better synergy between the two - ever since the MKI story. Even with the 5th gen one, I can bet that India will play a far larger role.





Evearybody have a right to express his opion*********

Mig 35 will have 5th genration Technology from I/R fighter which will be easy to apply.
And west will hold it back.


India faced intractable issues with Russian suppliers and MIG with spares and serviceability, hence orders dropped. MIG 35 could not be considered , even 29 is having these issues.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby bmallick » 08 Jan 2012 12:48

pragnya wrote:this is where Rafale selection, IMO, will become important as only it will be able to replace the Migs besides take load off the underpowered jags till they come with replaced engines.


Pragnya, please note that the Jaguar re-engine plan is running in parallel. What this means is that by the time the MRCA comes out in good numbers to "take load off the underpowered Jaguar", the Jaguar re-engine would have been a done thing and the Jaguar may not be so under powered then :-).

MRCA replacement of Mig-27 would be done probably earlier than their taking on additional responsibilities from the Jaguar. This is further indicated by the fact that the IAF is going for Jaguar re-engine option, but not going for any more updates on the Mig-27. I believe the Jaguar is going to displace the Mig-21 and become the Grand Old Man (or should it be workhorse) of the IAF, circa 2020. It would be the only dedicated fighter platform in the IAF, with the Mirage, Mig-29 (upg), Su-30, LCA & MRCA being multirole.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby pragnya » 08 Jan 2012 13:49

bmallick wrote:Pragnya, please note that the Jaguar re-engine plan is running in parallel. What this means is that by the time the MRCA comes out in good numbers to "take load off the underpowered Jaguar", the Jaguar re-engine would have been a done thing and the Jaguar may not be so under powered then .


there is still no final word on the honeywell offer. there is a whole lot of tug of war going on between RR and HW as this report indicates!! the fact that there is an Adour infra available at HAL is not a factor which may be dismissed easily by IAF. all in all, this is going to take a while.

even when it fructifies and the engine upgrade is put in motion, the fact that IAF has a sizeble fleet of jags means the whole programme is going to take years before it is completed!! while i agree it will run parallel, my point of Rafale will take the burden off the Jags is 'only supplementary'!! primary being Mig 27 replacement.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby nachiket » 08 Jan 2012 20:37

bmallick wrote:
MRCA replacement of Mig-27 would be done probably earlier than their taking on additional responsibilities from the Jaguar. This is further indicated by the fact that the IAF is going for Jaguar re-engine option, but not going for any more updates on the Mig-27. I believe the Jaguar is going to displace the Mig-21 and become the Grand Old Man (or should it be workhorse) of the IAF, circa 2020. It would be the only dedicated fighter platform in the IAF, with the Mirage, Mig-29 (upg), Su-30, LCA & MRCA being multirole.

I am not sure that the MRCA will be replacing the Mig-27. Bear in mind that the IAF already retired all its Mig-23s (except trainers) and there are several squadrons of Mig-21 M and Bis yet to be re-equipped. The Su-30's will be replacing some of them. The MRCA will have to replace the others and help in bringing the IAF's squadron strength to the sanctioned 39.5. The LCA when it comes will be replacing the Bisons. So I don't think the Mig-27s are going to be replaced anytime soon.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Viv S » 08 Jan 2012 21:19

Danell wrote:Like in all evaluations , there is obviously a ranking based on several criteria and especially according to the importance of these criteria. Without ranking , there is no selection or shortlist.
Regarding the work of the journalists, it is obvious that the latest informations given are the most relevant ... ;)


You don't actually need rankings to shortlist the aircraft. The competing aircraft were judged on their adherence to a set of minimum performance parameters compiled by the evaluation team.

For example (at random intended to be illustrative not accurate), the IAF would have specified that the aircraft needed to have a radar with a minimum range of say 200kms. Both the EF and Rafale would make the cut. But if they were being ranked, the EF would have been awarded X points, corresponding to its performance above and beyond the benchmark, while the Rafale would be awarded Y points. Same goes for all other factors like operational range, speed, engine MTBO, etc, possibly with negative marking where minimum expected standards weren't met.

In the actual evaluation, the EF and Rafale probably posted very similar levels of performance while remaining a cut above the remaining four, making the shortlist a relatively straightforward affair, without a ranking being necessary.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby NRao » 09 Jan 2012 01:04

kuldipchager wrote:Evearybody have a right to express his opion*********


Sure, you are entitled to one.

Mig 35 will have 5th genration Technology from I/R fighter which will be easy to apply.
And west will hold it back.


What is "I/R"?

Do you have a link we can look at, or is it just an opinion?

TIA.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby NRao » 09 Jan 2012 01:25

Like in all evaluations , there is obviously a ranking based on several criteria and especially according to the importance of these criteria. Without ranking , there is no selection or shortlist.


True, there was a technical ranking and the top two made it (perhaps on the points they earned).

BUT, the moment the proposals reached the MoD, the technical ranking had no meaning. The MoD is NOT taking the technical ranking into account. IF they had then the selection would have ended with the technical ranking. Now the ranking would be L1/political/whatever.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby MarcH » 09 Jan 2012 02:48

While I read quite often that Typhoon + American weapons would be a cost effective solution, I ask myself why not Rafale + American weapons ? None of those listed are integrated in either platform (or integrated in both, as is the case with older Paveway series bombs...). And both use the same Mil Std databuses.

As much as I like the Tiffy, I think in a scenario that involves war with china I would prefer an aircraft with better endurance. Airfields close to the front will probably be under constant missile fire and thus unusable.

Maybe French have their attitudes and charge an arm and a leg for spareparts but at least their aircraft is ready to go as it is. Various reports claimed the Rafale is cheaper up front. The ToT agreement should then make sure that most common spare parts are made locally, and thus affordable.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Philip » 09 Jan 2012 03:47

Dornier,Fokker,MIG.Many famous aircraft companies have passed into the sunset.The three listed however still survive in diff. avatar's.Opportunities missed in picking them up,esp. Dornier.Do-228s are made by RUAG (built by HAL),328's by Fairchild Dornier.I wonder whyw e never considered making the larger aircraft,it would've given us the equiv. of an ATR type for both commercial as well as military variants.Fokker went bankrupt and was divided up into service cos. for their aircraft.MIG is now part of Russia's consolidated OAK,but I wonder what it would've been worth,had an offer been made and whether the Russians would've been willing to sell the co.?
Had we picked up an EU aircraft co. when they were available,it would've helped considerably in augmenting HAL's R&D strengths and tech base.

Does the MICA deal represent a pay-off for the French,or when seen in the context of the M-2000 upgrades a converging of procurement policy towards French wares? The Brits are inside already with the Hawk extras deal.It is only the "poor" Germans who have yet to be "fed"! I strongly recommend that they be fed a deal for U-boats,which would ensure that our knowledge gained operating German subs will not be lost forever.The funny thing is that Europe has actually "won"! There is so much off interwoven strands between the two aircraft,esp. in common weaponry,ownership of companies,etc.,that if the EF wins,the French will still make a lot of money out of the deal,while it will not be the case for the Germans if the Rafale wins.The next major aerospace deal is for almost 100 multi-role helos for the IN.


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