India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Part 3

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby rajanb » 13 Jan 2012 14:13

# of rumours for Tiffany># of rumours for Katrina># of rumours for total no show.

Here is a total no show rumour:

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_channel.jsp?channel=defense&id=news/asd/2011/12/07/02.xml

LANGKAWI, Malaysia — Victor Komardin, the deputy director of Russia’s arms export agency Rosoboronexport, contends that the two short-listed candidates for India’s Medium Multirole Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) competition have effectively ruled themselves out by putting too high a price on their fighters.

India’s politicians told the local press earlier this year that the MMRCA contract was a $10 billion deal, but reports from India in recent weeks say the manufacturers of the two finalist aircraft, the Eurofighter Typhoon and Dassault Rafale, are each asking for around $20 billion to fulfill the 126-aircraft order, Komardin says.

“Against the backdrop of the [financial] crisis [sweeping the world], it is hard to see how any government would allow such a waste of money, particularly when there are social problems” to deal with, Komardin says. “And there is no imminent threat to India’s [sovereignty]. My prediction is that this tender will be canceled.” Komardin spoke to Aviation Week on the sidelines of the LIMA Airshow in Langkawi, Malaysia.

India and Russia are close partners on defense. Rosoboronexport’s MiG-35 was on the long list for India’s MMRCA competition. Komardin says the MiG-35 was withdrawn from the competition before the short list was decided. If India issues a new tender, it creates an opportunity for Russia and the U.S. to rejoin the competition.

:eek:

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Singha » 13 Jan 2012 14:18

the 40 extra fighters we ordered - has anyone confirmed they will belong to SAC and be wired for nuclear role?

if no - its all hot air.
if yes - the question posed by Badar does not arise because MKI is the chosen vehicle for good or bad. it has the advantange of being produced in india now and Rus will co-operate more in such areas.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby kmkraoind » 13 Jan 2012 14:54

My favorite choice of bird is F-18 and second choice is Rafale, and I was a tad disappointed when my favorite was eliminated. If DD of Rosoboronexport is correct (probably he had intel on the issue), there are fat chances that MMRCA goes to F-18 or F-35 through FMS route :D. Anyhow, MKI is a good air-superiority bird and its super sister PAK-FA will impose air supremacy much more than EU birds. Probably, time to change the tittle of thread. :wink: JMT.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Badar » 13 Jan 2012 15:12

Singha wrote:well the SSBN leg will be based on very same missile delivery tech. you cant trust one leg and not the other.

the fighter mafia will be happy to go play their games and avoid having N number of a/c locked down for nuke delivery role - its pretty useless against china anyways...even upto chengdu is a stretch. the pakis we can deal with using prithvi's alone.

The issue is not the missile. The Tatra trucks are reliable. The railway coaches are reliable (for a flexible definition of reliable applicable to Indian Railways :) ). Is Arihant reliable?

Reliable enough to inspire confidence that we can wipe out a whole leg of the triad? I don't think so. We won't even know if the Arihant is reliable or a gigantic waste of money for a decade or so. Counting on the Arihants is inadvisable at this stage of the proceedings. Even if the Arihants and the SLBMs and submerged launch capability are proven, even if the communication with submerged SSBNs is proven, even if the reliable escorts (SSN?) to protect the boomers and/or the creation of secure bastions (where?) is proven; Integrating the whole into a harmonious system and accumulating a sustained tracked record of availability and proven survivability is long long undertaking. I doubt if they can be a creditable player significantly sooner than the end of the next decade. I make no comment about the long term viability, just the short and medium term availability.

The fighter mafia will be willing to give up a slice of the nuclear triad with all attendant prestige, funds and importance?

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Badar » 13 Jan 2012 15:17

Singha wrote:the 40 extra fighters we ordered - has anyone confirmed they will belong to SAC and be wired for nuclear role?

if no - its all hot air.
if yes - the question posed by Badar does not arise because MKI is the chosen vehicle for good or bad. it has the advantange of being produced in india now and Rus will co-operate more in such areas.


MKI does not necessarily preclude the use of any other platform for this role. An MMRCA squadron might be tasked with nuclear strike in addition or as an alternative to the MKI if necessary. I am not arguing for one, just mentioning possibilities and options. If you had to have a nuclear strike squadron would you rather base it on MKI, Rafale or EF?

Please note that we managed to weaponise the Mirage 2000 for nuclear delivery. And the Jaguar.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Austin » 13 Jan 2012 15:38

Right now MKI will be used or converted for N delivery as IAF knows the aircraft quite well after decades of service , so there is maturity of platform from end user perspective. At a later day may be a decade from now one of the MMRCA winner will be converted to nuclear role.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Singha » 13 Jan 2012 15:38

I was not talking about Arihant at all, just that same agni project tech would feature in K4. if they are trusting A2 and A3 enough to launch production and deploy as our main deterrent then K4 will be trusted. K15 is already working.
for until 2025 our primary deterrence will be based on road and rail mobile missiles...

I prefer neither mki, rafale or ef for manned nuke delivery (a b1b or tu22m3 would be much better)...but given the 3 restricted choices would run with the 2 seater EF or Rafale due to better EW systems (dass/spectra), more modern engine , probably more uptime, more efficient cockpit and less RCS. and in case of EF a better radar and aam for self defence and running through the linebackers. the rafale with 2 extra drop tanks has the lead in current range, so EF needs to get CFT for that role. payload is not a big issue as the 'device' is likely to be around 2000lb only and maybe only 1 or 2 will be carried.

farnborough mockup - http://www.aviation-news.co.uk/archive/ ... p_farn.jpg
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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Austin » 13 Jan 2012 15:41



Frekin Ugly bitch with those CFT.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Singha » 13 Jan 2012 15:44

"black cat or white cat, if it catch mice, it is good cat" - Chairman Mao.

you want ugly - look here http://www.patricksaviation.com/files/p ... _29278.jpg

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Badar » 13 Jan 2012 15:52

Singha wrote:for until 2025 our primary deterrence will be based on road and rail mobile missiles...

And if you retire the strike squadrons it will not only be the primary but the sole means of deterrence. All eggs in one basket - missiles.

I prefer neither mki, rafale or ef for manned nuke delivery (a b1b or tu22m3 would be much better).

I know you like the Su-34 :)

..but given the 3 restricted choices would run with the 2 seater EF or Rafale due to better EW systems (dass/spectra), more modern engine , probably more uptime, more efficient cockpit and less RCS. and in case of EF a better radar and aam for self defence and running through the linebackers. the rafale with 2 extra drop tanks has the lead in current range, so EF needs to get CFT for that role. payload is not a big issue as the 'device' is likely to be around 2000lb only and maybe only 1 or 2 will be carried.


So you have no preference between the Rafale and Typhoon for this role, even though both are, according to you, a superior alternative to the MKI.

A question: why the two seater version of the Rafale or Typhoon (with the attendant compromises in fuel fraction)? Why not the single seat version?




Jeebus!

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby arunsrinivasan » 13 Jan 2012 15:57

Livefist: Countdown To MMRCA?

We're square in the time window now for an announcement on the M-MRCA competition. The last ten days have been thick with rumours of a Eurofighter victory (the company has wisely stayed away from comment). It's an incredibly delicate situation now. Last night, Reuters Aero tweeted saying the two parties were called for a meeting, but that it was unclear if this pertained to a decision or an update. The tweet appeared to draw its essence from an earlier tweet in the day by Newsx defence editor Vishal Thapar, who claimed that only Eurofighter representatives had been called for a meeting. He similarly wondered in his tweet if this had been for a "verdict or clarification". Now, unless this meeting was hardcore top-secret, my information is that no representatives of either company were summoned to any meeting yesterday (Thursday, Jan 12). My sources at both vendor companies and the MoD said there was no meeting, but that it was expected "soon". But this is hardly important. Assuming that the meeting didn't in fact happen, it is after all expected to happen at any time.

The sense I get is the government has until Republic Day (Jan 26) to declare the lowest bidder -- if it wants to, that is. After that, the country enters a phase of an elaborate series of crucial state elections that bring with them their own political sensitivities and code of conduct guidelines. The sense I get, therefore, is that if the government intends to make an announcement this month, it has to be in the next 10-odd days. Otherwise, it could drift for months as the establishment's mind gets diverted. As always, stay tuned.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Singha » 13 Jan 2012 16:14

> I know you like the Su-34

Nyet. everyone knows my fav is the Tu160. but its not on the market.failing that I would like a b1b painted dark grey and going lo-lo-lo.

> why 2 seater rafale/EF

you are right. this is not needed, a single seater ef/raffy would work just fine. its a all or nothing mission and just a ccip drop, needing no active lasing or managing a plethora of EW kit unlike a prowler or b1/tu160.
Last edited by Singha on 13 Jan 2012 16:16, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Badar » 13 Jan 2012 16:16

Singha wrote:> you are right. this is not needed, a single seater ef/raffy would work just fine. its a all or nothing mission and just a ccip drop, needing no active lasing or managing a plethora of EW kit unlike a prowler or b1/tu160.


oh all right then. I was thinking you might be hinting at the two man rule.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Singha » 13 Jan 2012 16:22

well the launch code and final signed triplicate notarized paper with rs500 franking would be needed before takeoff in our case methinks. we cannot keep bombers in the air 24x7 waiting orders.

btw u will love a old movie called "fail safe"..a grizzled old veteran in my old office one day came up to me and gave me on VHS tape after he knew I was a mil nut.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fail-Safe_%281964_film%29

part of it is on youtube.
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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby kelesis » 13 Jan 2012 16:23

Via Twitter :

ReutersAerospaceNews :

Indian spokesman is denying a report that Eurofighter won MMRCA on price as "completely wrong" - the wait continues.. //

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Badar » 13 Jan 2012 16:29

Singha wrote:well the launch code and final signed triplicate notarized paper with rs500 franking would be needed before takeoff in our case methinks. we cannot keep bombers in the air 24x7 waiting orders.

btw u will love a old movie called "fail safe"..a grizzled old veteran in my old office one day came up to me and gave me on VHS tape after he knew I was a mil nut.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fail-Safe_%281964_film%29

part of it is on youtube.


Oh yeah I have seen it. Like strangelove better though.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Viv S » 13 Jan 2012 16:42

indranilroy wrote:That is true because you are also considering unreal images ... but radars don't :(


I know. While the human eye will see a distorted shape, a radar should have little trouble in identifying the object/target.


That is true ...but I just told you how it is not constant with a moving plane can't be locked onto.


I'm afraid I didn't get your explanation. Sure the target doesn't have a uniform cylindrical shape, but as long as the radar is getting a return, tracking the aircraft is simply a matter of having sufficient resolution and processing power. Modern AESAs should be able to cope with that quite well.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Viv S » 13 Jan 2012 17:37

Badar wrote:Consider the air delivered leg of the nuclear triad of India. Which of the three (MKI, Rafale, EF) would the premier choice for a nuclear strike mission from the IAF perspective?
* As a standalone stealthy aircraft with a stealthy payload?
* Or as a part of a alpha "take-on-all-comers" strike package?

Do you think any points where explicitly given for parameters exclusive to the above scenario in the competition?
Do you think this particular mission profile should have a large impact on the final acquisition decision?


Well in the conventional sense I think we're passed the stage where aircraft were a viable means of nuclear weapons delivery. By which I refer to toss bombing. Even the Rafale while ostensibly a nuclear strike aircraft employs the ASMP-A missile at standoff ranges. The closest IAF alternative would be an air launched Brahmos with a nuclear warhead, obviously with the Su-30MKI serving as the platform. Maybe the Nirbhay could adapted for a nuclear payload in the future.

But all the same assuming the IAF wants to retain the capability to carry out toss bombing attack, possibly to hit a dynamic target like a mobile armored force, the best option would be a twin seat Eurofighter. The bomb will presumably be a low yield device and target designation would ideally be done by the WSO employing the Litening and/or Reccelite/Reco-NG pod. For accurate delivery the aircraft will have to fly fairly low and slow and then accelerate at full throttle away from the blast zone while maneuvering towards friendly airspace. The Rafale could perform this quite well too, its just that the EF's higher acceleration and climb rate might give it a slight advantage.

Not a pundit here, but in response to your question - I think this mission profile should have a very minimal role in the acquisition decision.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby uddu » 13 Jan 2012 18:09

If there is any cancellation or cutting down the numbers then I would like the numbers be filled with our own Tejas
Image

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Badar » 13 Jan 2012 18:18

VivS, fair enough.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Avid » 13 Jan 2012 18:34

Hello Badar -- the same old BR Badar (or was it Badr?)

If so, welcome back :-)

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Badar » 13 Jan 2012 18:47

Avid wrote:Hello Badar -- the same old BR Badar (or was it Badr?)

If so, welcome back :-)


Hello there Avid, Same old, same old. I was just banned for seven years for my many sins :)

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Avid » 13 Jan 2012 19:12

Sins = Rationality and the desire not to go in circles with same old tired arguments?

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Cain Marko » 13 Jan 2012 20:36

The possibility of rigging the MRCA for nuke strike is interesting. I'll favor the Rafale for both standalone and as a part of a strike pckg -

1) It has longer legs, which will certainly help.

2) Dunno how consortium bosses might react to the thought of hardwiring their hardware for nuke role. Nuke nudists like Ger. might want no part of it. Frenchies have no problems AFAIK.

3) Rafale is optimized for multirole better than Fitter - strike missions, more emphasis on RCS reduction ("discrete") and low level flights. And is certainly ahead of the EF as of now.

4) FWIW, it is already fixed to do the same in Adla via the ASMP - IOWs, it comes ready. Plus, if the strike has to be carried out via a heavy, long ranged ASM - Brahmos type (or the new Prahaar derivative), I think Rafale offers more options.

5) The one place it might come short is escort - but this is not a given, not with capabilities such as an AESA/Meteor combo or IRST/Mica IR.

This is not to say that the EF can't do it - some tweaking might be necessary but altogether possible. Difference of unni-bees wonlee. But I like the versatility offered by the Rafale.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Singha » 13 Jan 2012 20:50

assuming a single heavy standoff missile of the JASSM-ER size when nirbhay comes online, the rafale loadout would likely be
- centerline - nuclear tipped missile
- inboard pylons - drop tanks
- next pylons - 2 x Mica EM
- wingtips - 2 x Mica IR

I dont think it will carry any more Mica's using the 4 side pylons on fuselage on such missions, to reduce weight and improve time-in-air. I also dont think they will use the addl 2 wing drop tanks outboard of the main tanks to preserve some speed and agility and not look like a fat whale.

the Typhoon would look like a modified version of this pic.
http://hassaanrabbani.files.wordpress.c ... anes-3.jpg

- centerline - the nuclear missile
- 2 drop tanks
- 4 wing pylons - 4 x Amraam missiles (or 2 amraam and 2 asraam)
- wingtip has the jammer/towed decoy stuff already

so it comes down to internal fuel, 2 wing drop tanks (the rafale is said to have bigger external tanks...not sure if rated for supersonic flight or if supersonic rating needs smaller and sleeker tanks).

the EF can have CFT. and so can the Rafale. both about equal size.
http://www.b-domke.de/AviationImages/Mi ... s/3971.jpg

not much to choose between the two in that role imo. with modern FBW and terrain following mode, neither would have any problem flying blind at night nap of earth at 600-700kmph range in penetration missions...using glonass and terrain map databases to navigate to within meters of a waypoint a 1000km away.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Badar » 13 Jan 2012 21:54

Avid, just got tired of over the top jingo giri. Wasn't fun anymore. OTOH, I dare say I was a major pain in the backside and the admins then must have breathed a sign of relief when I shook my fist at them and disappeared. :D

VivS, GD, the consensus I am getting is that as far as strike is concerned the Rafale and Tiffy are roughly equivalent (after full A2G certification/integration) platforms. Rafale might be slightly better but not by that much.

Lets consider another mental exercise: radio intercept suggests that an enemy might attempt a nuclear strike on a leading armored element. The weapon will be delivered by an aerial platform with a 100km range standoff missile. A nearby squadron is ordered to drop everthing else and maintain a BARCAP. Same choice, what would you rather the squadron be comprised of? Typhoon or Rafale? Ignore other aerial platforms, SAM's etc for this.

Same scenario, but what if you had a choice of three, MKI, Tiffy and Rafale? Then which one?

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Indranil » 13 Jan 2012 22:00

Viv,

I don't want to be part of the annual cycle of regurgitation the same stuff ... so I will leave you with what you want to believe ... but the very fundamental basics of stealth shaping is:

1. Do not have perpendicular surfaces as they work as corner reflectors
1.a. this why all the stealth planes have either canted vertical stabilizers or no stabilizers at all
1.b. you see the wing and the body blended through extremely smooth and no cylindrical curves ... with non cylindrical curves the reflected waves is not constant and of variable magnitude which is difficult to characterize as a single object and to lock onto
2. Do not have cylindrical shapes
2.a look at the fuselage of stealth planes
2.b The F-18 intakes were re-modeled
3. the best configuration is to have extremely flat panels which are joint in very sharp edges
3.a. The panels should not be perpendicular.
4. If possible direct the reflected waves in as few directions as possible aka edge mapping.

Anyways I won't say anymore about it ... you are entitled to your view ... but that won't change the facts of physics.

P.S. you asked me a question about the perpendicular mirrors example that I gave you:
1. If you have 2 perpendicular mirrors and you move to a place where the incident rays no longer fall on any of the mirrors then you can't see yourself ... Ofcourse you can't ... but if you put a third perpendicular mirror i.e. in the shape of 3 sides of a box, you have no place to hide as long as you stand in front of them ... what's more no matter where you move the reflection is identical.

2. Instead of the 3 perpendicular mirrors if you have a convex mirror, then you can always see yourself ... albeit you can ... but think of it like this ... that mirror is not convex as in part of the lateral surface of a cylinder ... It is convex and follows a complex curved path ... now if you move with respect to this mirror, you will look different everytime ... Now if this mirror was flying you would observe reflected rays but you would have no way to say it is bouncing of the same object ... Now you asserted that modern radars can track such things ... apparently the J-20/F-22/PAKFA/B-2 developers disagree.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby SaiK » 13 Jan 2012 22:07

but air delivery nukes would be only for smart and sub kilotons right? these would be to smoke out some large terror hub or mountain kave kamplex or some special delivery aspects.

I am thinking, that is not in the RFI itself. Should there be such a need, I think we would use MKI or AMCA in the future.

Agnis/shaurya should do the needful jobs for the larger NFU case.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby koti » 13 Jan 2012 22:18

However, to use the Eurofighter Typhoon as an example, an aircraft with CFTs can carry a full weapons load and two 1,500 litre CFTs, whereas a Typhoon without CFTs has to sacrifice at least two weapons pylons to carry drop tanks, reducing either range or weapons load.

What does this mean??
And can Rafa do this too?(Whatever it is)

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby SaiK » 13 Jan 2012 22:38

Raffy with CFTs will be as ugly as Euffy without it. So, why is that if CFT becomes a requirement then why not increase the internal fuel area by extending the a/c by that much space? When mid-air refueling options are becoming necessary for all future ops, do we really care about CFTs, and reduced aerodynamics for dogfights?

which takes precedence?

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby nachiket » 14 Jan 2012 00:12

koti wrote:
However, to use the Eurofighter Typhoon as an example, an aircraft with CFTs can carry a full weapons load and two 1,500 litre CFTs, whereas a Typhoon without CFTs has to sacrifice at least two weapons pylons to carry drop tanks, reducing either range or weapons load.

What does this mean??
And can Rafa do this too?(Whatever it is)

koti, without CFTs (Conformal Fuel Tanks), the extra fuel needed would have to be carried in external drop tanks that increase drag, reduce payload and the number of hardpoints available to carry ordnance.
Yes the Rafale is going to get CFTs as well, probably before the EF does.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby koti » 14 Jan 2012 01:01

Noted.
Thank You.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Philip » 14 Jan 2012 03:58

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/ ... el=defense

This AWST report if true will kill the Rafale,make no mistake.It also brings into stark examination our decision to upgrade the 50+ M-2000s.One is not sure whether this is a devious French tactic to tilt the MMRCA deal in its favour.Why should we also build another 3 Scorpene's too?

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Gurneesh » 14 Jan 2012 04:05

That article is 2 years old. IIRC, the french upgrade deal did not materialize.

OTOH I doubt pakis would have the money to pay for upgrades and this might have been a tactic by french to bag some more indian contracts.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby VinayG » 14 Jan 2012 04:26

Philip wrote:http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story.jsp?id=news/awst/2010/02/15/AW_02_15_2010_p34-203443.xml&headline=French%20JF-17%20Deal%20Could%20Anger%20India&channel=defense

This AWST report if true will kill the Rafale,make no mistake.It also brings into stark examination our decision to upgrade the 50+ M-2000s.One is not sure whether this is a devious French tactic to tilt the MMRCA deal in its favour.Why should we also build another 3 Scorpene's too?


phlip saar
the french did not approve the contract 2 years ago and it is still effective because according to the article Pakistan does not give enough guarantees, including regarding the protection of French technology. Radar and missile art could find themselves in the hands of the Chinese masters of the program JF-17

below article in french translated

Un contrat militaire avec le Pakistan bloqué par Paris
april 2010

[b]According to Le Monde, Paris has decided to block a major contract for defense equipment to Pakistan, electronics, and missiles that were intended to equip Pakistani fighter aircraft JF 17 manufactured in China. A contract which amounts to the first $ 1 billion 200 million-a total of 6 billion, which could then fall into the water, not to upset India, but also perhaps to protect French aviation industry.


The Sino-Pakistani fighter little JF-17 entered service in 2007, but soon, the Pakistani military are not satisfied with Chinese electronics. They decided to re-equip their aircraft with European systems. Companies are selected Thales and MBDA.

According to Le Monde, in 2008, the Interministerial Commission for the Study of exports of war material gives a positive opinion, but, according to the French daily, three-week visit to Paris of Pakistani Prime Minister Yusuf Raza Gilani, Paris would have about-face. The head of the Pakistani government is expected in Paris April 19 for an official visit.

Pakistan does not give enough guarantees, including regarding the protection of French technology. Radar and missile art could find themselves in the hands of the Chinese masters of the program JF-17 (Thunder).


Technical issues in addition to diplomatic and trade issues, because France is also in talks to sell military equipment to New Delhi. It should not offend the neighboring India.

Finally, if France wants to export its Rafale in the UAE, it must find a buyer for the Mirage 2000 of the UAE army. However, these aircraft could be sold in Pakistan. But if the JF 17 is upgraded, the Pakistani military will no longer need these Mirages Used ...[/b]

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby SaiK » 14 Jan 2012 07:22

see.. when IAF procured su30MKI, we made sure even if they sell to china, certain pieces remain sole part of MKI. I think we need to invest these billion moolahs the same way. Follow the same model.. and the reason we are asking for source code.. so that we can integrate various stores of our kind, and perhaps work on our won net-centric control systems.

having a plan to go for a wide use AWACs it is a requirement that all a/cs can be net-centered, and have mission profiles CnCed from these platforms.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Singha » 14 Jan 2012 08:43

we need as much CFTs as we can get. our paltry fleet of 6 + 6 (proposed) refuelers need all the help they can get. if the MRCAs can manage without refuelers all the better. the CFTs need to be filled only for high loiter CAP missions and DPSA missions not for shorter missions. and much less drag and rcs impact than drop tanks.

for QRA cap and long range standoff bvr sniping from high level its the typhoons comfort zone - high climb rate, high ceiling, superb manouver performance, best radar, meteor+amraamC7 of the 3.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby PratikDas » 14 Jan 2012 10:27

Sorry for the newbie question:

Are Rafale's CFTs more or less plug-and-play or is reconfiguration in the midst of a campaign out of the question?

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Singha » 14 Jan 2012 11:06

iirc all cft need a few hours to put in or out...so not a *daily* mission specific deal but more like you set it up if need be when the sqdn deploys for a role like dpsa that needs it for some time.

contrary to popular view here it seems the EF CFTs are actually 700 ltr more in total than Rafale CFT...which is not surprising because EF fuselage part is longer, Rafale behind the cockpit looks like someone hit its rear with a mallet and made it shorter than it should have been

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conformal_fuel_tank

Dassault Rafale

Two 1,150 litres (300 USgal) CFTs were first tested by Dassault in April 2001.[3]

Eurofighter Typhoon

Wind tunnel tested by BAE, two CFTs with 1,500 litres (400 USgal) capacity.[4]

Nice pic of F15E CFT removed from the plane..the beauty of Khan being they added 4 more pylons on the sides with the necessary electrical interfaces to mother a/c. giving the f15e its phenomenal ability to hang the kitchen sink right upto the tailpipe.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... 5E_CFT.jpg

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby member_22516 » 14 Jan 2012 13:47

PratikDas wrote:Sorry for the newbie question:

Are Rafale's CFTs more or less plug-and-play or is reconfiguration in the midst of a campaign out of the question?


Hi, i am brand new on this VERY interesting forum.

As said above, CFTs are "plug-an-play" but for a campaign. It's many hours to plug on the fuselage, with specific tools. So the AF has to prepare its fleet and decide which squadron will be equipped with CFTs and which mission it'll match.
CFTs can't be dropped while in the air, so you remain heavier in case of dogfight.
But it can be useful for RCS reduction from ground radars, instead of external tank.

For nuclear mission, French AF has a 6-aa missiles configuration: 1 central nuc weapon, 2 ext 2000ltr tanks, 4 mica em (aft fuselage and wing), and usual 2 mica ir at wing tips.
Same for recce mission, with AEROS in central position, allowing to have self armed recce mission many kms beyond the front line (which proved to be efficient over Lybia).
Scalp-eg can be fitted the same, or with 2scalps instead of the wing micas.
Aft fuselage micas will be replaced by meteor by 2014.
Naval configurations are the same (except bi-scalp).


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