India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Part 3

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NRao
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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby NRao » 31 Jan 2012 06:39

On the topic of India going back to the parent organization for upgrades in the future, that defeats part of the purpose for the MMRCA. MMRCA was to be produced in India - granted not completely under most circumstances. However, India should have good enough access NOT to lean on the parent company to upgrade. Specially if the upgrades are expected some time around 15 years from inception. It would be a travesty if India was to be that backward at that time in such matters.

IF India cannot be independent is design by around 2025-30, boy, that would be a sad case.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby shiv » 31 Jan 2012 09:01

In December last, were the two final MMRCA contenders asked to extend their bids till the end of January? Or was it 3 months? Or indefinitely?

Also, when does Jan 31st end? 24:00 hrs IST, or US Pacific time. Or when the Japanese say goodamara or whatever they say for "Good morning"?

Key questions... :roll:

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby rajanb » 31 Jan 2012 09:11

shiv wrote:In December last, were the two final MMRCA contenders asked to extend their bids till the end of January? Or was it 3 months? Or indefinitely?

Also, when does Jan 31st end? 24:00 hrs IST, or US Pacific time. Or when the Japanese say goodamara or whatever they say for "Good morning"?

Key questions... :roll:


Your question can only be answered by another question. The end of Jan 31st. Which year are you referring to? Then I can hazard a guess as to the time zone. Hint: Maybe it is Aloha time with the complication of the date line! :((

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Cain Marko » 31 Jan 2012 09:17

Viv S wrote:Well.... TWR is a useful statistic but it provides only a partial picture. The Tejas has a large wing area for its size, leading to higher parasitic and wave drag, an effect which will be even more pronounced at transonic and supersonic speeds. I wouldn't dismiss the IAF's concerns without more detailed information.

Fair enough. But as you well know the larger wing also compensates by providing lift.

The orders so far total 8 LSPs and 40 SPs. That's not an insubstantial quantity; the IAF's Mirage fleet for example is 'just' 51 strong. Its enough to keep the line humming till the Mk2 arrives on scene.


Disagree here - the M2K was always going to be difficult to get in numbers thanks to its cost. Not so with the LCA. Moreover, I think the LCA deserves a greater push, it is a homegrown product afterall. In any case, an order of 150 LCAs is "token" imvho. The bird should be produced en masse - not unlike the MiG-21, which it was originally supposed to replace. If anything it should make up the bottom layer of the IAF pyramid, and consequently have the largest numbers. A streamlined IAF would have 300 MKI + 200 Pakfa + 200 AMCA + 300+ LCA.All the more so as it is growing into a fighter that can replace multiple a/c of the current inventory (mk1) - MiG-21, MiG-27, and in all probability the Jaguar.

Anyways, the larger question that I think still looms is, wherefore the sudden need of a twin engined MRCA, which the IAF has never really had in its inventory? Considering how farsighted most of its projections are, I find it incongruous that this need was not specified ages ago. The very fact that this need has arisen in the last 4-5 years shows that it is an afterthought - a result of the choices in an expanded race over which it had little control.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby rajanb » 31 Jan 2012 09:47

ramana wrote:
rajanb wrote:^^^^ Sure. And an unknown, unwanted aircraft called the Gnat was beating the cr@p out of that generations best: The F-86 :lol:



Rajanb, It was the IAF pilots' tactics that did the job and not just the plane.
Again the man behind the machine.

However should India always handicap its fighting forces due to politicians inclinations?


Ramana. I agree with your post in full. We shouldn't handicap our bravehearts at all.

At the same time, since the MMRCA is supposed to "replace the MiG21 and the M2K", that does not mean we are looking for equivalent a/c. But a modern and better a/c to fulfil that role.

Whilst I personally root for the Raffy, I quite understand that I am not a know it all about a/c, I am confident that the AF is capable of chosing the right one for the envisaged role. Particularly the guys who have evaluated it. The >600 parameters, if they were pulled out of someone's brains, in isolation, would be a rather shoddy way of doing it.

If not in isolation, the >600 parameters besides evaluating the various geo requirements, maintainability, quick turn around and importantly, its performance and how it would fit into the overall fleet consisting of MKIs, Jags, et al. Sure, there will be overlaps.

With my past experience, I have come to realise, that a product design team, if initially tasked with designing an omnirole product, do it successfully because they have catered to the products ability to deliver in different roles.

On the other hand, to take a product and then evolve it for different roles will blunt some of its capabilities. The latter product will be poorer by he changes. And costs will escalate.

I am a Raffy fan for that very reason. And I feel dealing with a one country product is easier than a collection of them.

Knowing that the F-16 and F 18 did suffer because, while they maybe still current, they are way past the ability to absorb various tech. w/o comprimising original wow characteristics.

Now, it depends on the babus and the politicos to stand by the AF's decision.

And google will never give us the total picture. No matter how much we quote from it! It is only the guys who have gone into the innards of all these birds can tell you. :wink:
Last edited by rajanb on 31 Jan 2012 09:55, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby rajanb » 31 Jan 2012 09:49

++ CM


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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby NRao » 31 Jan 2012 12:19


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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby krishnan » 31 Jan 2012 12:35

Maybe GoI is waiting to see whether the world ends in 2012 :P

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby rajanb » 31 Jan 2012 12:42

What I was mulling over is whether the FM is trying to keep the budget deficit down and hence this after 31st March. And the news hit.

This is how the corrupt, black and salted away Billions are affecting us.

Nonetheless, the scores of politicians who visit astrologers will tell you that since Mars The God of War is retrograde, and will be going direct after 14th March, the decision to postpone till after then will be auspicious for the AF. Besides we will not get attacked too. :rotfl:

Now back to looking at Katrina's and Tiffany's horrorscope to tell you which one will win.

Sorry if OT but an occaisonal rant is pardonable, no?

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby shukla » 31 Jan 2012 12:46



However, New Delhi will "soon" announce the lowest bidder for the contract worth about $11 billion, two defense ministry sources told Reuters separately.


So they'll announce the lowest bidder ~ in turn the winner "soon"? and only delay signing a contract??

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Roperia » 31 Jan 2012 13:03

Lets redefine soon in the BRF dictionary. :)

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Philip » 31 Jan 2012 13:05

Did not the Oracle warn one earlier of major disruptions,especially for aircraft due to the massive solar flares? We now await the "Ides of March".Who will play Caesar and who will play Brutus? (We already know who will play "Anthony",He!He!)

Viv S,you know my predeliction for ze French,especially the cabaret artistes of ze Moulin Rouge! Surely it would be more fun to go to Romantic Paris for negotiations and confabulations,and all manner of "undulations",sipping champagne,cognac and fine wines; enjoying foie gras,truffles,caviar and gastronomic marvels of French cordon bleu cuisine,instead of guzzling llitres of lager and swallowing sausages and sauerkraut ?!

PS:That Russian comrade at MAKS was spot on when he said that no winner would be seen in Jan. as the GOI couldn't afford the prices of the two EU birds.Does he have an inside line to the MOD and will he be proven right?

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby nash » 31 Jan 2012 13:35

The source added the defense ministry was considering further extending the tender to buy an additional 80 or so jets, saying bidders excluded from the current process might be permitted to take part

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/01/ ... A820120131


So the back door entry for unkill...

or we gone split the order.. 126 to L1 & 80 to L2... too much speculation to handle

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Philip » 31 Jan 2012 13:43

But what is Unkil squeezing so hard,to influence our leaders when it is well known that they are a gang of ahem....impotents?

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby rajanb » 31 Jan 2012 13:53

nash wrote:
The source added the defense ministry was considering further extending the tender to buy an additional 80 or so jets, saying bidders excluded from the current process might be permitted to take part

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/01/ ... A820120131


So the back door entry for unkill...

or we gone split the order.. 126 to L1 & 80 to L2... too much speculation to handle


Either that, which I doubt. Or it is a manouvre to ensure that that the noise level from losing vendors, which may delay the acquisition, is stymied.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Singha » 31 Jan 2012 14:02

guess is 80 F-18-I/JSF for IN, with EMALS catobar & e2d for ADS2 which will make it a true sea control ship ....

the recent varyag trials and reports of PLAN quickly planning a sister ship followed by 2 more (bigger) would surely have run alarm bells.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby nash » 31 Jan 2012 14:03

rajanb wrote:Either that, which I doubt. Or it is a manouvre to ensure that that the noise level from losing vendors, which may delay the acquisition, is stymied.


If GoI thinking of extending the order and want to reduce the noise level from losing vendor at this stage ... i would say 108 to both Tiffany and Katrina..... there would be no noise at all

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby nash » 31 Jan 2012 14:07

Singha wrote:guess is 80 F-18-I/JSF for IN, with EMALS catobar & e2d for ADS2 which will make it a true sea control ship ....

the recent varyag trials and reports of PLAN quickly planning a sister ship followed by 2 more (bigger) would surely have run alarm bells.


80+ JSF without any stringent would be awesome and if we able to get them by 2016-17 at the rate of 20 then it would be... oh la la la

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Singha » 31 Jan 2012 14:14

at some point we have to take a call on ADS2 - another cavour or something meatier. the meat factor obviously needs catobar and either of JSF/F18I/Rafale to justify the price tag of the ship - not tejasN or mig29K.

I suspect IN will run with JSF or F18I or both because
a) much larger production run and upgrade path
b) might get EMALS and other hard to find carrier kit
c) better missiles like amraam and jadraam
d) better radar than rafale

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Snehashis » 31 Jan 2012 16:39

Saurabh Joshi of Stratpost is claiming that the lowest bidder will be announced by this weekend.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby member_20453 » 31 Jan 2012 16:40

IN will certainly go for the F-35, all they really have to do is issue the rfp and put the F-35 under trials, the aircraft will prove itself better than anything out there. I hope we jus scrap the MRCA and go for the JSF or F-18 International IN. Both are far better and offer much more multirole value for money.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Kailash » 31 Jan 2012 16:59

Rafale Wins !!!!! reports Headlines today

Declared lower bidder :)

Shiv aroor doing the reporting

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby rajanb » 31 Jan 2012 17:05

RAFFYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY WINS. HOORAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY

http://www.stratpost.com/


Rafale wins MMRCA



he French Dassault fighter aircraft Rafale has been selected to be the Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) of the Indian Air Force (IAF).

Dassault beat the four-nation consortium’s Eurofighter on price, with the fighter being identified as L1, or the lowest technically qualified bid.

StratPost understands that Dassault has been issued a letter from the Ministry of Defense, communicating their selection.

Three representatives of the Eurofighter consortium were also summoned to the Ministry of Defense at South Block on Tuesday afternoon, when they were informed of their loss in the competition.

The bid was originally estimated to be worth USD 10.4 billion, as per the budget estimate approved in 2007, but it is likely to have faced a substantial escalation in cost, keeping in mind inflation and the fall in the value of the Indian Rupee.


My CHAIWALLAH was correct!!!!!!!!!

Not only on price but also the stuff I posted earlier today. We have the best of the lot. :D
Last edited by rajanb on 31 Jan 2012 17:16, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby nash » 31 Jan 2012 17:09

so its katrina ... where is my pahua.... :twisted:

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby abhischekcc » 31 Jan 2012 17:13

Maybe GOI is waiting to see the end of Europe's economic crisis, and if any country collapses :P

They do not want a repeat of the USSR in Europe, I suppose :mrgreen:
Last edited by abhischekcc on 31 Jan 2012 17:15, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Kailash » 31 Jan 2012 17:15

Those who can, watch Headlines today NOW :)

Air chief marshal retd S Krishnaswamy speaking

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby nash » 31 Jan 2012 17:16

Kailash wrote:Those who can, watch Headlines today NOW :)

Air chief marshal retd S Krishnaswamy speaking


what he is speaking .... sorry can't watch it now.. can u give us the details .... :)

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Apparao » 31 Jan 2012 17:19

Dassault Rafale wins USD 10.4 billion Indian Air Force jet fighter deal: Sources

New Delhi: Sources have told NDTV that the French aviation company Dassault Rafale has won the $10.4 billion deal for supplying fighter aircraft to India. The Indian Airforce plans to buy 126 aircraft over the next ten years.

The first 18 aircraft will be bought off the shelf. The rest 118 will be manufactured in partnership with an Indian company.

There were six contenders for the worlds biggest defence deal which included MIG- 35, F-16 Falcon, F-18 Hornet, Gripen Euro-Fighter, Typhoon and Rafale. Of these, the Typhoon and Rafale were shortlisted. The rest were rejected as they didn't meet the technical qualifications.

http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/dassault-rafale-wins-usd-10-4-billion-indian-air-force-jet-fighter-deal-sources-171975?pfrom=home-lateststories
Last edited by Apparao on 31 Jan 2012 17:22, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby SSridhar » 31 Jan 2012 17:20

Wow... at last, after so many years, we have light.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Austin » 31 Jan 2012 17:21

EXCELLENT NEWS !!!!!!!!!! Finally she made it

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby VinayG » 31 Jan 2012 17:24

Image

Image

:mrgreen: :mrgreen:

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Kailash » 31 Jan 2012 17:25

Krishnaswamy said it is good that they made the decision, congratulated, but was uncertain it was decided already. HT anchor assured him it is decided :)

Wing commander Bakshi and air chief marshal SP Tyagi were also on call

Tyagi says either one could have come out as winner. Says it would be a major technology infusion. Brings in next gen Radar, ECM etc etc

Shiv aroor - magnificent aircrafts - both of them. Rafale history has been Jinxed - never exported - probably priced too high (>100 mil) ... blah blah... how he personally flew and knows about rafale's plus points etc
Last edited by Kailash on 31 Jan 2012 17:27, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Vivs » 31 Jan 2012 17:25

Great news! Lets roll with Kat!! :D

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Venkarl » 31 Jan 2012 17:26

Great News to all of us....though my chaiwala thought it could be tiffy in 2003..I am glad that rafale won. A beer for me tonite.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby bksahu » 31 Jan 2012 17:26

great news!!!!!

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby neerajb » 31 Jan 2012 17:27

I am so happy that atlast they selected a plane. Somebody pinch me, just to make sure that I am not dreaming. :)

Cheers....

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Cain Marko » 31 Jan 2012 17:37

AWESOME!!! Go Rafale!! THE PERFECT CHOICE!! I am happy today. Perhaps it was based on this that the offer to the Swiss was made at reduced prices?

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby mallikarjun » 31 Jan 2012 17:38

Finally a decision...go jingoes, u got it what u wanted...happyyy :) :) :)
hopefully french will send us a squadron or two quickly!!!!

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Venkarl » 31 Jan 2012 17:38

I thought Arthur would post this good news...where is he?


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