India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Part 3

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Jan 2012 11:55

and the first couple of squadrons should be based in GAU.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 10 Jan 2012 12:03

Singha wrote:and the first couple of squadrons should be based in GAU.

I believe the first one or two squadrons are to be based at Ambala (GAU is Guwahati right?).

Final commercial negotiations with the L-1 vendor will then begin before the contract is ready for signing by December or January. IAF, on its part, wants deliveries of the 126 fighters to begin from December, 2014, onwards to stem its fast-eroding combat edge. Plans have already been firmed up to base the first MMRCA squadron at Ambala, with subsequent squadrons coming up both in the western and eastern theatres.

http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes ... ssian-fgfa

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Jan 2012 12:26

ambala - yawn...already chock full of jaguars and bisons.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 10 Jan 2012 12:51

Singha wrote:ambala - yawn...already chock full of jaguars and bisons.

Yes and when are Bison supposed to retire? 2015. So, it makes perfect sense.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 10 Jan 2012 12:54

Hope in AI'13we will see a ooh-aah display by tejas similar to the one posted in the last page by Prasadji

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 10 Jan 2012 13:24

i assume initial basing is also a function of engineering infrastructure set up and training facilities

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Jan 2012 13:45

ambala is not the ideal location to influence the situation either in north or east.

comparing the limited point defence role of the bison to the EF is not 1:1

Tejas mk1 : Bison would be a more 1:1 kind of replacement comparison

imo we should denude the TSP frontier of peacetime bases and focus on north and east only.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 10 Jan 2012 13:49

^^Singha saar, IAF will need time to play around with the new toy when it comes and develop tactics for it. They can't base it at a forward location from the start. Just like how the initial location for the Rambhas was Pune and not Pathankot or Halwara. Still I believe Lawhore might be striking distance from Ambala.

karan_mc · Post by **karan_mc** » 10 Jan 2012 13:51

This is what greets the visitors of the eurofighter site http://www.eurofighter.com/

Any more Rumors required ?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Jan 2012 13:54

*cough cough* hope folks have seen this propaganda video of EF in strike role
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HvEDSI1nf3E

EF going lo-lo-lo...probably in scotland?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijs6csP5 ... ure=fvwrel

nash · Post by **nash** » 10 Jan 2012 14:18

karan_mc wrote:This is what greets the visitors of the eurofighter site http://www.eurofighter.com/

Any more Rumors required ?

I think that seal the case in favour of EF, if this poster was not there previously....

Bye Bye Katrina but we will have Tiffany for pahua ...

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Jan 2012 14:20

but that poster has been up there for months! its not a recent putup.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 10 Jan 2012 14:25

Singha, Regarding Ambala, while the MMRCA for Bison may not be one on one. The IAF probably does not see the LCA being inducted in numbers byt he time Bison squadrans are getting number plated and has put its hopes on the MMRCA.

member_21286 · Post by **member_21286** » 10 Jan 2012 16:07

I was just reviewing all this batch of rumors. If I haven't forgotten anything, the first source to avec dealt with the "Tiphy 'L1' issue" is the German newspaper Der Spiegel, on January 2, in an article written by Hasnain Kazim, a Pakistani correspondant.
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/0 ... 30,00.html

I don’t know if these rumors are only inspired from this paper or not.
Anyway, this article is quite interesting, maybe more than the one of LiveMint. Citing a "senior official" of the Indian MoD, the journalist says that the EF is faourite "although it is still more expensive than the offer of Dassault" with operating costs of "more than 70,000 € per flight hour", "well beyond the bounds of acceptability." The same source affirms that "the EF could be chosen for purely political reasons".

This potential deal, in such conditions, seems to me really questionable... I hope eventually that it won't.
If we remember the previous rumors, most of them said that the Rafale is slightly cheaper than the EF in terms of 'fly-away' unit cost. Now, according to Der Spiegel, it appears that the operational cost of the EF is "more expensive"... The only problematic aspect of the Rafale offer, according to IDRW (just a few days ago) would be the price of spare parts...

So, eventually, would the MoD announce the "L1" or simply the selected offer which takes into account some strategic aspects (ToT, geopolitical issues...) dear to the Government??? Something isn't clear, here...

An idea, someone?

Best

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 10 Jan 2012 16:21

Rumours are bound to float around. A lot of them "authentic".

To me the reason for the delay indicates two things:

a) Bickering over price and the L1
b) A political call will be made

If one of the contenders had come in with a noticeably better price then b) would not have been facored in, considering the $10B figure has been bandied about for some years. That would have to be adjusted to current values and add to that the weaker rupee, making it more expensive than originally envisaged.

Gut feel and tea leaves

tell me that the Rafale might have shot themselves.

karan_mc · Post by **karan_mc** » 10 Jan 2012 17:14

if the prices between two are less then 5 % , then spares , weapons , upgrade road map , cost per flight will also be considered , recent Mirage upgrade deal might have pissed at least some one in IAF . Brazil and some Middle eastern countries , are waiting for India to select the fighters to ride on the large order which India will have which will make economic sense for them.

Will · Post by **Will** » 10 Jan 2012 17:31

Well poor katrina

. But if the EF is selected no doubt it will be the best point defense fighter out there other than the F-22. If the IAF gets it, most probably the MKI will be moved to the mudmover role. But then are we sure that the current MMRCA deal will go through or are they just waiting to scrap the whole thing for one reason or the other and bring in the F-35

through the FMS route.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 10 Jan 2012 17:48

either way we need to get ready to chaDao some pahua's...

koti · Post by **koti** » 10 Jan 2012 17:51

Are there any takers for the thought that this could be a last minute bargain for the Rafale?
Or is everything freezed beyond any changes.

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 10 Jan 2012 18:23

Ofcourse, there are going to be last minute bargains. If St. Antony lives up to his name, there will be. Like squeezing the last drop out of a sponge. (Most MIC are like sponges when it comes to charging you.)

However, whom are they squeezing? Since there is no T1 or T2, I would squeeze both!

anishns · Post by **anishns** » 10 Jan 2012 19:02

Only thing which will leave a sour taste if EF is indeed chosen is this:

Germany Will 'Contribute to an Arms Race,' Charges Opposition

Now, obviously selling the same to Saudi Barbaria is not constituted as an "Arms Race"

koti · Post by **koti** » 10 Jan 2012 20:07

German politics always have the potential to be a serious pain in the lower back.
It should be remembered how Andhra Pradesh and Gujrat(?)/WB Police forces were denied the sale of Glock as the German parties believed the State forces were involved in human rights violations.

Forget the Nuclear delivery of Rafales, it would be really humiliating if a bunch of ultra conservatives back in Germany have the voice to govern the spare supply and technology transfer obligations once the deal is signed.

We need to have a very carefully made deal to avoid this nuisance.

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 10 Jan 2012 20:08

L1 = bhaari/mota lifafa

L2 = halka/patla lifafa

Fortunately both birds are top class.

member_19648 · Post by **member_19648** » 10 Jan 2012 20:46

There was some news that if Eurofighter is indeed chosen, India would be a major hub for spares, one of the advantages of being a partner. If it indeed is so, then we can show the middle finger to the Germans. The details would emerge in some time so hope indeed they have that clause.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Jan 2012 21:08

we also need cast iron legal paperwork that OEMs will provide all assistance to integrate local and third-party weapons over the course of time, starting with astra and sudarshan.

HAL, wipro, taneja, maini, l&t, M&M, tata power could benefit from offsets in the form of aerospace parts and spares. they need to get plugged into the global networks and absorb both process and technology to help us on the next leg up.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Jan 2012 21:12

> If the IAF gets it, most probably the MKI will be moved to the mudmover role

yes the WSO is best in managing a2g sensors, defensive aids and standoff weapons...thats the whole USP of a WSO. its not needed for a pure play A2A role like F15C, F22, Su27, Pakfa ... other than F-14 no interceptor generally was a 2 seater.

we need to spec up the EW , sensors and weapons on the MKI upto F-15E level and let it run free and wild.

Badar · Post by **Badar** » 10 Jan 2012 21:52

Singha wrote:> If the IAF gets it, most probably the MKI will be moved to the mudmover role

yes the WSO is best in managing a2g sensors, defensive aids and standoff weapons...thats the whole USP of a WSO. its not needed for a pure play A2A role like F15C, F22, Su27, Pakfa ... other than F-14 no interceptor generally was a 2 seater

True, other than Panavia ADV. And MiG-31.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Jan 2012 22:14

ADV was kind of a add-on by the british to the core A2G role birds shared by UK, Italy and german tornadoes? it was not a great a2a airframe albeit high top speed, long legs and ample missiles...the F15C's based in lakenheath probably trounced it except at low levels.

Badar · Post by **Badar** » 10 Jan 2012 22:21

Singha wrote:ADV was kind of a add-on by the british to the core A2G role birds shared by UK, Italy and german tornadoes? it was not a great a2a airframe albeit high top speed, long legs and ample missiles...the F15C's based in lakenheath probably trounced it except at low levels.

Absolutely true. But it was more than adequate for its intended role - intercepting Backfires.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 10 Jan 2012 22:35

adv was meant to be intercepting backfires, blinders and maybe fencers over the north sea, its not really meant to do anything else

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 10 Jan 2012 23:09

I am thinking this is all going the EJ200 way! when the French are silent, means they are working hard to get the deal. But then again, nobody has any clue about these rumors.

Will · Post by **Will** » 10 Jan 2012 23:18

Well remember the reports about the EF engine being L1 for the LCA engine deal? It was pipped to the post by the Amriki engine. Dont think price wise that scenerio will repeat this time(the EF Consurtium will have learnt its lesson from that) . But expect twists and turns before the final winner is announced. What do the French have on offer to swing the deal their way? Help on nuke submarines?

karan_mc · Post by **karan_mc** » 10 Jan 2012 23:22

to be frank IAF loves Interceptor aka Air superiority aircraft . IAF chief (not sure if it was current or previous chief) who had told Media that if it was left to him he could have only Interceptor aka Air superiority aircraft in IAF fleet .

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 10 Jan 2012 23:26

karan_mc wrote: IAF chief (not sure if it was current or previous chief) who had told Media that if it was left to him he could have only Interceptor aka Air superiority aircraft in IAF fleet .

I don't remember this. Do you have any link?

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 11 Jan 2012 01:04

Aditya_V wrote:Yes and when are Bison supposed to retire? 2015. So, it makes perfect sense.

Bisons are to retire in 2017.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 11 Jan 2012 01:06

^^There are older non-upgraded Mig-21 M's and Bis that the IAF has to retire first.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 11 Jan 2012 01:09

Kartik wrote:
nachiket wrote: As an aside, the Typhoon seems to lack an Anti-Ship missile (including planned weapon integrations). I'm not aware of a any plan to integrate the Harpoon. The Rafale of course has the air-launched Exocet. The other issue of course is that most a-to-g weapons integration including the Brimstone and Storm Shadow is still ongoing or planned unlike for the Rafale.
EADS has been looking at the feasibility of integrating the Marte-ER anti-ship missile with the Typhoon.

Aviation Week article

Thanks for that.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 11 Jan 2012 02:09

karan_mc wrote:This is what greets the visitors of the eurofighter site http://www.eurofighter.com/

Any more Rumors required ?

It has had that image for many months now..doesn't indicate anything.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 11 Jan 2012 02:24

Singha wrote:EF going lo-lo-lo...probably in scotland?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijs6csP5 ... ure=fvwrel

Its the Mach loop in Wales. Very popular among photographers to get side-on and top down pictures of jets without having to get in the air.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 11 Jan 2012 03:29

nice. hope it can bomb and smoke some kave kamplexes along the mountain sides.