India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Part 3

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 24 Jan 2012 05:15

Oman requests RFP from UK for 12 Typhoons

Oman has issued a request for proposals to BAE Systems linked to the purchase of about 12 Eurofighter Typhoons, only one month after its plan to also buy a new batch of Lockheed Martin F-16s was revealed.

In a statement issued on 23 January, the UK government said it "welcomes the government of Oman's request for a proposal from BAE Systems for the supply and support of Typhoon aircraft". The milestone represents "an important step towards the contract", it added.

The UK and Omani governments have been involved in bilateral discussions over a Typhoon sale for the past several years, with Muscat's interest now believed to be linked to the acquisition of Tranche 3 production examples.

A deal is expected to be signed later in 2012, said BAE, which added that deliveries would start three years after the order confirmation. The company has already handed over its first 24 Typhoons to Saudi Arabia under a Project Salam deal totalling 72 units.
...

FlightGlobal article

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 24 Jan 2012 06:59

Some interesting observations on the Typhoon and surprising ones on the Damocles LDP

RSAF driving Typhoon forward

When the Saudi Ministry of Defence was asked to send an aircraft to BIAS, it naturally chose an example of its latest fighter – the Eurofighter Typhoon.

It was flown into the show by one of the Third Squadron’s senior pilots, Lieutenant Colonel Khalid Almaki.

He and the unit’s deputy commander, Colonel Hammad Alhammad, have been keen to talk about the Royal Saudi Air Force’s new fighter and paint an extremely rosy picture of the progress that is being made. Both are ex F-15 Eagle pilots, and though both point out that the F-15 remains an impressive and capable fighter, the Typhoon enjoys a significant and decisive edge.

Almaki highlighted the fly-by-wire control system and the carefree handling that it confers, while Alhammad spoke with enthusiasm about the aircraft’s thrust-to-weight ratio, performance and man-machine interface.

The two officers were both among the initial Typhoon cadre, with Alhammad one of eight pilots to be trained by the RAF at Coningsby and Almaki one of two trained in Spain. The squadron has now graduated eight pilots from Typhoon conversion training ‘in-kingdom’, and seven more are due to graduate soon.

Though it functions as a conversion training unit, the Third Squadron maintains an operational role and began standing quick reaction alert (QRA) six months ago. The RSAF then started air-to-air gunnery (something the RAF still has not done) and, showing an admirable confidence, has retained a night AAR clearance for its Typhoons even after the four Eurofighter partner nations withdrew their own night refuelling clearances.

The squadron began air-to-ground training last month as part of a phased work-up, which will culminate in the full exploitation of the Phase 1 Enhancement, part A (P1EA), when that becomes available.

Tranche 2 aircraft can, of course, carry and drop a range of air-to-ground weapons, including the UK Paveway II laser-guided bomb and GBU-16, but they do not have the austere air-to-ground capability provided under change proposal 193 (CP 193) and recently combat-proven in Libya. Nor do they have a laser designation pod (LDP).

The RSAF has, thereby, become the first Typhoon operator to start air-to-ground operations using Tranche 2 aircraft, which will not gain a full air-to-ground capability until P1EA is released in mid 2012.

With the introduction of P1EA Tranche 2, Typhoons will have ‘full’ SRP10 Tranche 2 software, which will allow the aircraft to drop Paveway IV, GBU-10, GBU-16 and EGBU-16, and will clear the aircraft to strafe ground targets. The new software will also provide significant workload and capability enhancements.

Though the RSAF regard the number of bombs (and the type) dropped as ‘secret’, both pilots confirmed that they had dropped many laser-guided weapons, with Damocles-equipped Tornados ‘spiking’.

The RSAF pilots expect to receive a laser designation pod ‘soon’, and claim that this has already been integrated, though they would not comment as to which pod had been chosen. The Lockheed Martin Sniper pod is believed to be one possible option, as well as a UK-built and de-branded version of the Litening pod, whose Israeli origins otherwise make it problematic for Saudi Arabia.

Some believe that the Thales Damocles pod, already built under licence by Saudi Arabia’s AEC for use by RSAF Tornados, may be the most likely choice, although the French pod is not highly regarded and has no real high-resolution capability for the non-traditional ISTAR role that other pods allow.

It was reported that the UAE wanted Sniper rather than Damocles when it was considering the procurement of the Dassault Rafale, and even that the French Armée de l’Air has been in negotiations for Sniper pods as an alternative to the Damocles for its Rafales.

BAE Systems has experience of integrating all three types of pod – the Litening pod on Typhoon and Tornado, Sniper on the Harrier GR.Mk 9 and Damocles on the Saudi Tornado. Integrating any of the pods on the Saudi Typhoons would be straightforward.

Though the first eight Typhoons delivered to Saudi Arabia were painted in Tenth Squadron markings, plans changed and the Tenth Squadron has not yet stood up. Its aircraft are among the 24 that now equip the Third Squadron at Taif.

The Third Squadron hopes to be authorised to begin airshow display flying ‘soon’, and its pilots are all vying to be selected as the nominated display pilot, according to Alhammad!

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 24 Jan 2012 07:14

I have a feeling, with the current tussle between the MOD and the Army chief,
and the state elections looming large and close by; GOI might not make a call
on the MMRC any time soon.

The UPA government might want to play safe, by not taking a decision. The logic
here being why give the opposition one more stick to hit the government with
(regardless of who the winner is). If UPA does well in the upcoming state elections,
they might announce the winner soon after the elections. Worst-case scenario would
be, UPA fairs badly and the Government will drag the process along.

Hope I am wrong and the government announces a winner the day after
republic day.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 Jan 2012 08:22

americans seem to have taken over the Litening pod further development since 2000 and pushing it to higher level via Northrop Grumann.

LITENING G4
LITENING G4, which began to be delivered to U.S. forces in 2008, added new sensors for improved target identification and other advanced target recognition and identification features. The LITENING G4 provides significant enhancements in terms of both recognition range and image quality.[5] The LITENING Gen 4 technology and capability is also available in a kit form that allows users to upgrade their currently fielded LITENING pods.

I would say we can get the latest mark of Litening pre-integrated as thats what Luftwaffe and RAF will likely use or get the Sniper XR. Litening2 is a old kit dating back a decade and not amenable to the latest "COIN/IED hunting/iphone driven 2lb guided PGM delivery/style guru/android ice cream sandwich app integration" roles khan is evolving.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 25 Jan 2012 02:06

MMRCA decision imminent, CCS meet to discuss deal and army chief controversy
The Hindu

A meeting of the high-level Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) took place in the capital on Tuesday amid speculation that the date of birth (DoB) controversy involving Chief of Army Staff (COAS) Gen. V.K. Singh as well as the MMRCA (combat aircraft) mega deal for the Indian Air Force was discussed.

Two defence deals, including the big-ticket deal for the acquisition of 126 MMRCA (combat) aircraft for the Indian Air Force are also likely to be announced soon amid speculation that these too could have been discussed at Tuesday’s CCS meeting.
The French Dassault company — manufacturer of the Rafale — and the European (German, British, Italian, Spanish) EADS Eurofighter — manufacturer of the Eurofighter Typhoon aircraft — are the two only contenders now left.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 25 Jan 2012 06:13

when are we going to move over to policy based governance? this ever long dhoti shivering on politicians holding service requirements has gone beyond any comparison to any nation on the planet. /rant.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 25 Jan 2012 06:47

Indian politics and policy!!!!!!!! Oxymoron.

nash · Post by **nash** » 25 Jan 2012 09:34

Can we expect to know the winner by the eve. today or it wil only tommorow or after state election. ??

Will · Post by **Will** » 25 Jan 2012 10:02

NRao wrote:Indian politics and policy!!!!!!!! Oxymoron.

Just hope and pray that the Chinese dont decide to make use of this window to "teach India another lesson". Our soilders cant fight just on guts and for glory. More than a bloody nose is what maybe in store and all because of these spineless politicians.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 25 Jan 2012 15:12

I consulted the oracle.Same answer as before!

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 25 Jan 2012 21:56

she asked you take red pill or blue pill?
also, check if you see "made in italy" tag.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 25 Jan 2012 22:02

Si,si!

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 25 Jan 2012 22:22

Philip wrote:I consulted the oracle.Same answer as before!

I asked my friendly neighbour astrologer. His parrot also said the the decision will definitely be taken within next 2 - 1354 days.

K

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 25 Jan 2012 23:25

His parrot must be really predictable.. in the sense, having said a range, would be very difficult by any human measure.

The fact is it did not say 1355 days.

Mihaylo · Post by **Mihaylo** » 26 Jan 2012 00:24

Next week: MMRCA decision 'about to happen'
Week after: MMRCA decision 'approaching'
Week after: MMRCA decision 'at hand'
Week after: MMRCA decision 'on the way'
Week after: MMRCA decision 'brewing'
Week after: MMRCA decision 'expectant'
Week after: MMRCA decision 'forthcoming'
Week after: MMRCA decision 'likely next week'
...
...
...
YAWN

arunsrinivasan · Post by **arunsrinivasan** » 26 Jan 2012 07:40

as Sir Humphrey says "In the fullness of time, when the right moment arises" ...

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 26 Jan 2012 09:34

I think that Katrina with it's active stealth tech is winning the hard fought race.

member_20453 · Post by **member_20453** » 26 Jan 2012 16:15

I think EF takes this home fair and square! This is taking too long, either they annouce a winner or cancel and go for the full spec Super Hornet International through FMS.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 26 Jan 2012 16:24

Is The Eurofighter Upstaging The F-16 As The World’s Most Popular Fighter?
Defenseworld

      Oman has become the latest addition in the Middle East to express its interest in acquiring the Eurofighter Typhoon. The Government of Oman has requested BAE Systems to submit a formal bid for the supply of the fighter aircraft. Delivery of the first aircrafts is expected to take place in 36 months, according to a BAE Systems spokesperson.

      This statement comes after Saudi Arabia, the Middle East’s first Typhoon customer, announced last month that they had made amendments to ‘Project Salaam’ and, are now expecting 72 fighter jets and not 24 as originally requested. The United Arab Emirates also made a shocking move in November, 2011 during the Dubai Air Show when it expressed its interest in the Eurofighter. This shift came after France’s long running campaign to sell up to 60 Dassault Rafales to the UAE reportedly stalled over price negotiations.

      The Eurofighter is steadily becoming the most coveted fighter aircraft among governments. Earlier this week, the Eurofighter was chosen as the fighter aircraft to keep the skies clear during the upcoming World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland. A clear indication that the strike fighter is growing in strength, as well as numbers, including recent order book now totals 707 Eurofighter aircrafts.

      The four partner nations of the Eurofighter program have ordered 620 aircrafts: 180 for Germany, 121 for Italy, 87 for Spain and 232 for the UK. Austria placed an order of 15 aircrafts; the first two were delivered in July 2007. In addition, Eurofighter has come tantalizingly close to winning a large contract for 126 plus options for 72 fighters in India. It has been shortlisted along with Dassault’s Rafale in a final face-off, the results of which are expected within the next 1-2 months.

Arunkumar · Post by **Arunkumar** » 26 Jan 2012 16:40

Jan-26 gone and still no news. Next stop Jan-31.

Badar · Post by **Badar** » 26 Jan 2012 16:45

It is obvious IAF/Babus are are kicking themselves for letting go of the Gripen.

BAe is said to be cooking a scheme where they rename the Gripen as Tyfale and sell it to BEL who will again give it a sanskritized name and pretend its an Indian development. Cent per cent true, you can take this to the bank.

member_22516 · Post by **member_22516** » 26 Jan 2012 17:49

It seems that RAF EF pilots have received special orders from HQ not to come too close to French borders and to avoid any contact with AAF Rafale. And a2a exercices between the 2 countries are at a very low level.
If true (this statement should be cross-checked), it means they are not confident that the result would be in EFT favor, in pure radar ranges as well as in tactics.
What should be checked also: are there same instructions given to German Luftwaffe, Spanish or Italian AF towards their EF sqdrns.

member_22605 · Post by **member_22605** » 26 Jan 2012 17:50

HAL is said to be cooking a scheme where they rename the Tejas as Rafoon and sell it to EADS who will again give it a swedish name and pretend its a European joint development and market it in Brazil/Oman/Qatar/UAE etc as a more modern and economic alternative. Cent per cent true, you can take even this to the bank.

Luxtor · Post by **Luxtor** » 26 Jan 2012 18:21

...... Any second now !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 26 Jan 2012 18:42

Raf Khan wrote:It seems that RAF EF pilots have received special orders from HQ not to come too close to French borders and to avoid any contact with AAF Rafale. And a2a exercices between the 2 countries are at a very low level.
If true (this statement should be cross-checked), it means they are not confident that the result would be in EFT favor, in pure radar ranges as well as in tactics.
What should be checked also: are there same instructions given to German Luftwaffe, Spanish or Italian AF towards their EF sqdrns.

And where did you stumble across this nugget of information?

The closest EF base would be RAF Coningsby (remaining EFs are in Scotland) and that's still a long way from France. They may occasionally exercise over the North Sea but they're unlikely to be operating over the English Channel. Even so, AFAIK the closest Rafale base is Saint-Dizier which is even further away from the Channel than Coningsby. And finally, they are both friendly militaries that are aiming to move even closer over the next decade. They don't have a history of engaging in impromptu dogfights like the Turks and Greeks over the Aegean Sea.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 26 Jan 2012 19:03

Badar, I understand your anxiety, but that post of yours on gripen is not coherent at all.

Badar · Post by **Badar** » 26 Jan 2012 19:49

SaiK wrote:Badar, I understand your anxiety, but that post of yours on gripen is not coherent at all.

Saik, read the second "inside information" leaked by raghuk; it will become clear.

ref: supposed Rohini radar "scandal".

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 26 Jan 2012 20:22

The news will appear tomorrow. All newspapers expected as usual.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 26 Jan 2012 20:27

Badar wrote:It is obvious IAF/Babus are are kicking themselves for letting go of the Gripen.

BAe is said to be cooking a scheme where they rename the Gripen as Tyfale and sell it to BEL who will again give it a sanskritized name and pretend its an Indian development. Cent per cent true, you can take this to the bank.

If you can believe Ajai Shukla, who has been updated by Gripen International that MoD has asked them to wait and it is not still over.

The way LM is acting in pushing F-35 as well as assurance to Gripen makes me think MoD is keeping some back door open.

trushant · Post by **trushant** » 26 Jan 2012 20:30

shiv wrote:The news will appear tomorrow. All newspapers expected as usual.

Shiv saar ..is it one more of your tongue in cheek wala statement or really tomorrow is THE D Day

Badar · Post by **Badar** » 26 Jan 2012 20:40

Kanson wrote:
Badar wrote:It is obvious IAF/Babus are are kicking themselves for letting go of the Gripen. BAe is said to be cooking a scheme where they rename the Gripen as Tyfale and sell it to BEL who will again give it a sanskritized name and pretend its an Indian development. Cent per cent true, you can take this to the bank.

If you can believe Ajai Shukla, who has been updated by Gripen International that MoD has asked them to wait and it is not still over.
The way LM is acting in pushing F-35 as well as assurance to Gripen makes me think MoD is keeping some back door open.

Wow, great! Even my mischief making is no good. Seems there is a grain of truth behind my rumor mongering!

As much as I like the Gripen for its fit to the IAF, I don't think there will be any purchase. Not within the context of MMRCA.

Shiv saar ..is it one more of your tongue in cheek wala statement or really tomorrow is THE D Day

trushant, Cent per cent guarantee!

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 26 Jan 2012 21:07

The financial ground and assumptions based on it have shifted drastically and this could easily have altered our thinking on the MMRCA. We may also not be able to afford it any more in its current form. This is what babus may be struggling with and IAF agonizing over with a lot of finger-pointing as per usual. IMO, this is a golden opportunity to change the project so that we get 150 capable fighters within the next 5 years instead of 10, and collaboration in key technologies. The best way to do this is drop the idea of license manufacture and buy off the shelf. Go for what is available the fastest at the best price. This:

* gets us the fighters much faster
* gets them much cheaper
* gives the oiropeans (or amrikans) much needed domestic jobs
* increases our leverage on collaboration (or "offsets") in key techs
* loses nothing in political terms and may actully increase goodwill and a willingness to help us out in return

Let's hope this is what they announce tomorrow

kelesis · Post by **kelesis** » 26 Jan 2012 21:31

A little bit off topic, but interesting article :

UK considers Rafale and F-18 as 'interim aircraft'

http://www.defencemanagement.com/news_s ... p?id=18662

According to The Times, Admiral Sir Trevor Soar, the current commander-in-chief fleet, said concerns were growing about rising costs and delays in the JSF programme, something now worsened by order cuts from the US.

Soar, who was addressing defence companies at the ADS Maritime Interest Group, reportedly said the UK might not receive the $100m per piece F-35 jets until a decade after the delivery of the carrier, currently set for 2019.

He was said to be considering the French Dassault Rafale and the US F-18 Super Hornet to give Britain an "interim aircraft capability".

No navy Typhoon and no sea Gripen...

Badar · Post by **Badar** » 26 Jan 2012 21:37

Viv S wrote:
Raf Khan wrote:It seems that RAF EF pilots have received special orders from HQ not to come too close to French borders and to avoid any contact with AAF Rafale.
And where did you stumble across this nugget of information?

Check the latest AvLeak mag issue.

A rafale was taking advantage of a sunny day by sunning itself on the tarmac. A while later it took off its radome to, you know, get an even tan and all. You know how uninhibited those french birds are. Well anyway the next thing you know a Typhoon had sidled up to the topless rafale and was nuzzling the rafale's twin exhausts with its mustache. Quite a scandal followed, which was barely hushed up.

A while later, a chagrined Dassault introduced the tiny nEUROn to the world as a completely unrelated development. Since then Dassault is like a touchy father with a shotgun. Hence the RAF is showing the better part of valour.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 26 Jan 2012 21:40

Any insider news on IN joining the IAF on the MMRCA price negotiations for their requirements?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 26 Jan 2012 22:02

trushant wrote:
shiv wrote:The news will appear tomorrow. All newspapers expected as usual.
Shiv saar ..is it one more of your tongue in cheek wala statement or really tomorrow is THE D Day

You haven't read the fine print which I have now enlarged. I hope tomorrow will be the day and will be the first to take credit if it is - but I have no information

Ravi Karumanchiri · Post by **Ravi Karumanchiri** » 27 Jan 2012 00:05

It seems to me that neither Dassault nor EADS would be keen at this point to hear the IAF/MoD's decision too soon. Both companies are at risk of not hearing what they would like.

As it stands now, both contenders can claim to be "winners" in the MMRCA contest, having been downselected. Their salesmen get to say "Don't even bother considering those other aircraft (F16, F18, Mig-35, Gripen), they are not competitive against our Rafale/Typhoon -- they have been exhaustively tested and compared by the IAF."

When the decision is announced, one of these commercial contenders will become a "loser" in the MMRCA contest, and that stain may stick for a long time. That's a significant risk in today's highly competitive, technologically-driven defense equipment marketplace.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 27 Jan 2012 01:03

^you are talking one of the two here, and of course the other (winner) would like always like to hear it!

btw, the loser anyway would suffer or feel frustrated. The reason, our universal brotherhood NFU babudom thinks about satisfying the most possible loser with small chunk of the share in some other business avenue.

so.. I said it first here! who is the winner.

member_20453 · Post by **member_20453** » 27 Jan 2012 02:18

EF all the way, Raffy is going home.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 27 Jan 2012 02:52

Check out my oracle's prediction many posts ago,based upon "sound" clairvoyancy principles used by a reputed Indian astrologer,that the "Ra-fale" would "fail".In the fine print,like Shiv, I also mentioned that astro-scientific explanations would be given if the prediction was wrong too!

Here I must caution members as to the sudden unexpected massive solar flares earlier in the week,causing havoc with sat commns.,forcing flights to avoid the polar route,etc.According to the Mayan prophecies,such intense solar activity would cause havoc on earth.Coming in this critical week of decision,and that the word "flare" is also an anagram that can be read and sound as "rafel",all bets are off as anything can happen (except an order for JSFs)!