INS Vikrant News and Discussion

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member_20067
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby member_20067 » 12 Aug 2013 23:35

My intention was by no means to disparage our achievement but I wanted to highlight the technically correct statements---Some of the nations including Japan and Spain has built their carriers. That's all.

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby vdutta » 12 Aug 2013 23:55

Our govt PR machine does a horrible job in showcasing our achievements. Watching TV makes it look like that Antony is being launched and the carrier just came to watch. Everyone is just showing Antony and same shot of Vikrant to go with the news.

However here are few images of Vikrant in water which i didnt see anywhere in our media.

Image

Image

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby vdutta » 12 Aug 2013 23:58

Few More. If anyone has getty account then we can get hi res images as well.

Image

Image

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby vdutta » 13 Aug 2013 00:02

Side shot

Image

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby Suraj » 13 Aug 2013 00:07

Eric Leiderman wrote:Suraj there are at least a couple of reasons that the island and other appendeges have not been welded on before she is floated out of the graving dock

1) you will see spoonsoons attached to the hull, that means that there is a restriction on the vessels draft which the sponsoon s counteract with their extra buoyancy, so less the superstructure less the requirement for buoyancy.
2) from a shipeyard real estate point of view , it is much more costly to keep a vessel in a dry dock than alongside a quay.
vessel's hull is now water tight and the remaining work can be done with her afloat at a cheaper berth.
3) the dry dock can be used for other ships.

Very good points. Thanks for the technical input.

Interestingly, Vikrant, at 262m, appears to be longer than any carrier the Royal Navy has built, excepting the QE class which is under construction; it exceeds the Ark Royal by a few metres, as built. There's an interesting pattern here: our first real aircraft is a 4th gen Gripen equivalent (yes we made the Marut too, but that was shortlived). Our first attempt at a submarine is an SSBN. Our first attempt at a carrier is longer than anything one of the most famous navies has built. Fits a pattern - we tend to overreach ambitiously, struggle, but learn a lot in the process. I hope the lessons learned the hard way are amortized in future to our benefit.

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby Bade » 13 Aug 2013 01:36

Quite colorful decoration.
Image

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby Bade » 13 Aug 2013 01:38

Oh Well not a lungi dance exactly !
Image

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby Mihir » 13 Aug 2013 02:00

Hi Suraj, the length of a carrier is essentially dictated by two things: the length of the dry dock available, and the performance of the aircraft it is supposed to carry. If you have a long enough dry dock, building a long carrier isn't that much of a challenge (relatively speaking, of course).

Your larger point is valid, but I don't think this is a case of ambitious overreach. In fact, the overall approach comes across as relatively conservative: the displacement isn't very high, a proven solution is being used to provide propulsion, the electronic equipment and weaponry will be generally tried-and-tested stuff (apart from a few subsystems here and there), a foreign design consultant has been roped in to avoid mistakes, and so on. That's why I'm very optimistic about the vessel's future. Obviously, there will be nasty surprises, cost and time overruns and all that jazz, but nothing of the kind that has affected the Tejas or the Arjun programmes.

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby Bade » 13 Aug 2013 02:23

If the restriction on the vessel's draft was that led to early float out without the full deck superstructure, does it mean IAC-2 Vishaal at 60K tons, would need a brand new dock to be built at Kochi. Or maybe it does not matter, as it just means a fatter carrier ?

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby Mihir » 13 Aug 2013 02:36

There's little doubt that it will be longer. Making a carrier too wide will lead to problems with roll, and will probably increase drag, reducing the design speed.

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby Mort Walker » 13 Aug 2013 02:48

The report of 37, 500 tonnes displacement. Is that unloaded and without the superstructure?

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby Mihir » 13 Aug 2013 03:17

INS Vikrant will have approximate displacement (weight) of 18,500 tonnes at its launch. 37,500 tonnes is the standard displacement. The full-load displacement will probably be around 40,00 tonnes

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby Suraj » 13 Aug 2013 03:51

Mihir, thanks. I definitely didn't mean 'overreach' as a pejorative. It's a reflection of the fact that we aim ambitiously, despite the purported SDRE mindset (though we fund in a somewhat SDRE manner...) It leads to the development being more protracted and leads to much whining, but ultimately generates something very substantial for a first effort.

As a size comparison, this picture of the CdG with USS Enterprise is a good reference, since the Vikrant is about a metre longer than CdG: pic

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby KrishnaK » 13 Aug 2013 04:28

The vikrant will carry much more fighters than the Vikramaditya ?

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby vina » 13 Aug 2013 04:33

Bade wrote:If the restriction on the vessel's draft was that led to early float out without the full deck superstructure, does it mean IAC-2 Vishaal at 60K tons, would need a brand new dock to be built at Kochi. Or maybe it does not matter, as it just means a fatter carrier


Bade Mian, Cochin shipyard has a capability to build ships upto 100,000 tons displacement. The have built a couple of oil tankers of that size. So, building even an Unkilesque Nimitz class will not be a problem , the graving dock has enough capacity.

The reason why it is floated out with the sponsons welded to the side is to give it stability. A partially built ship like the Vikrant is light ship rides high above the water and will topple over otherwise. As it is fully built, it will settle down in the water and it wont need those sponsons. This is the exact same reason why cargo ships take on water ballast when they unload cargo and are traveling empty. Obviously, the ballasting systems and stuff in the IAC are not functional yet, so you have to do this.

You cannot build a "fat" carrier as it will need to move at pretty sizable speeds (upwards of 28 knots, unlike a cargo ship ) and it will require ginormous power if you do that. The length will increase close to 300mts for a 65K ton ship and yes, the breadth and draft will increase as well , proportionally to get that displacement.

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby vina » 13 Aug 2013 04:34

KrishnaK wrote:The vikrant will carry much more fighters than the Vikramaditya ?

Yes. VikAd was not a full carrier (refer to the older pics before conversion, when it was a Minsk class), it has a compromised hanger size and the island is inconveniently placed somewhat in the middle, rather than right at the edge.

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby George J » 13 Aug 2013 04:44

Really like the nettipattam on the ski jump, very nice touch.

Since the mid 80's every time we used to cross Venduruthy bridge (usually for the airport) my ungle use to point to CSL and say, that's where they will be building India's aircraft carrier.

Being a young jingo I would eagerly look out of the our ambassador window looking for the aircraft carrier, all I saw was some rusty old SCI ship.

In the years that followed the airport moved to Nedumbasherry and and that put an end to our trips over Venduruthy bridge. They even built a NEW Vendurthy bridge and Kerala became God's own country where you now find "pav bhaji" on the menu on road side restaurants on NH-47.

Well after all these years my ungle was right about the aircraft carrier.

There was this lonely road winding through rubber plantations that went to the Naval Armament depot . My ungle used to point to the road and say, "that's the road to the Naval Armament Depot, some say that's where they store India's nuclear bombs." :twisted: This was long before Shakti... nuff said.

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby Indranil » 13 Aug 2013 04:48

George J wrote:Really like the nettipattam on the ski jump, very nice touch.

Since the mid 80's every time we used to cross Venduruthy bridge (usually for the airport) my ungle use to point to CSL and say, that's where they will be building India's aircraft carrier.

Being a young jingo I would eagerly look out of the our ambassador window looking for the aircraft carrier, all I saw was some rusty old SCI ship.

In the years that followed the airport moved to Nedumbasherry and and that put an end to our trips over Venduruthy bridge. They even built a NEW Vendurthy bridge and Kerala became God's own country where you now find "pav bhaji" on the menu on road side restaurants on NH-47.

Well after all these years my ungle was right about the aircraft carrier.

There was this lonely road winding through rubber plantations that went to the Naval Armament depot . My ungle used to point to the road and say, "that's the road to the Naval Armament Depot, some say that's where they store India's nuclear bombs." :twisted: This was long before Shakti... nuff said.

Loved your post. God bless your ungle.

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby NRao » 13 Aug 2013 04:55

GJMan,

For an old-ish coot you have a great memory!!

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby Bade » 13 Aug 2013 05:34

vina-mian, Mihir and others thanks! I realized it cannot be fat like a tanker, but the current one is already 800+ ft long and the big daddys are like 1000ft long. So a factor of two in increased displacement weight for the next carrier has to show up somewhere other than just in the length. :-)

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby vina » 13 Aug 2013 05:49

Bade wrote:So a factor of two in increased displacement weight for the next carrier has to show up somewhere other than just in the length.

Bade Mian, I told you that the breadth and draft will increase proportionally , so, assuming that the Block Coeff ie Lenght *Breadth * Draft /Displacement ie, L*B*T/Delta remains the same, if now, L goes up by 25%, and Delta goes up by 2 , you have that B*T together go up by 60% and since you want ideally a deep ship (structurally and hydro dynamically good) , you increase breadth by 20%, the depth goes up by 33% ..

The limit usually is that there is a limitation on depth because you want to go through canals like the Suez (depth limitation) and Panama (length, width and depth), but that is really no concern here, because, even a Unkil like 100,000 ton carrier will fit into the Suezmax and Panamax LBT limits.

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby Bade » 13 Aug 2013 06:26

Nicely done with numbers. thanks again !

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby Singha » 13 Aug 2013 07:12

the heavies tend to be wider ... makes for nice parking areas and additional safety clearances for the landing area.
enlarges the hanger too below decks - always a huge plus. and those deck edge lifts need to be big to fit the hawkeye/CH53 types.

all in all, I am ready to celebrate when keel is laid for a 65,000t empty bad boy...to be called INS Munna :wink:

CTOL + Shornet + SH60 + NTejas. CTOL kind of implies Shornet + SH60 but both are excellent platforms in naval role that need no sifarish and ghooskhori to stand on own legs and deliver. hugely field-proven too unlike the delicate darling euro-babes.

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby Bade » 13 Aug 2013 07:21

If it takes 10 yrs to build and induct a carrier, then they better start soon for a 2025 milestone. Ak Antony's speech did drop copious hints as to where it will be built. ;-) Vizag is the sub factory and kochi will likely be the big carrier shop for at least a few more decades...till a time when we will need more than 5 carrier groups or multiple SSBNs in another hundred years.

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby Manish_Sharma » 13 Aug 2013 07:26

Singha wrote:all in all, I am ready to celebrate when keel is laid for a 65,000t empty bad boy...to be called INS Munna :wink:

CTOL + Shornet + SH60 + NTejas. CTOL kind of implies Shornet + SH60 but both are excellent platforms in naval role that need no sifarish and ghooskhori to stand on own legs and deliver. hugely field-proven too unlike the delicate darling euro-babes.

For this combo both the Boeing and Sikorsy will lobby US govt. to allow EMALS to be sold & installed with enough ToT given so our people can maintain and service it. 8)

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby member_23455 » 13 Aug 2013 08:20

Image

Back to the Vikrant...which of you Sanskrit scholars can help translate what's on the crest?

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby Amitabh » 13 Aug 2013 09:08

Hilarious - Mint's article has used the photo of a slightly different (and somewhat bedraggled) Vikrant!

Image

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby member_22539 » 13 Aug 2013 09:25

^Only the filthy vermin we call journalists can defame our nation in this way. Even a corrupt to the core politician is much better than this lot. If only there was a law making such traitorously defaming articles punishable by death. These scums deserve no place in our nation.

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby SaiK » 13 Aug 2013 09:33

That SOB must be banished from desh.. drop him in pakistan or some palce where he can get stoned to death.

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby member_23455 » 13 Aug 2013 09:49

Marten wrote:
RajitO wrote:Image

Back to the Vikrant...which of you Sanskrit scholars can help translate what's on the crest?

Not a scholar, but it essentially says "Will be victorious in all battles". (Jaye ma sama yudhi-spardha~ha)


Thanks! Normally the DDM is good at picking up on such trivia but this time alas...

Amitabh wrote:Hilarious - Mint's article has used the photo of a slightly different (and somewhat bedraggled) Vikrant!

Image


:-? Rajeev Chandrashekhar, the MP who has done his bit for the National War Memorial had tweeted an old pic of Vikrant before he changed it.

Best to be positive and shoot them a mail about it, though some morons still can't be bothered...

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby Anujan » 13 Aug 2013 09:51

RajitO wrote:Image

Back to the Vikrant...which of you Sanskrit scholars can help translate what's on the crest?


From Rig Veda "I defeat those who dare to fight me"

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby member_23455 » 13 Aug 2013 10:04

Anujan wrote:
RajitO wrote:Image

Back to the Vikrant...which of you Sanskrit scholars can help translate what's on the crest?


From Rig Veda "I defeat those who dare to fight me"


+100 for the source!

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby Arunkumar » 13 Aug 2013 10:14

Marten wrote:
Bade wrote:Quite colorful decoration.

Thrissur Pooram onlee, except now at Kochi! Cheers to the team.
*Lungi dance once again.

Anujan, thanks for the correct translation.


Yes pooram!!. Good observation. The umbrellas and Nettipattam hanging down from the decks.

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby vdutta » 13 Aug 2013 12:43

Is engine fitted and what about power source?
Doesnt seem like it has become self propelled yet

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby suryag » 13 Aug 2013 12:49

I underestimated CSL a lot and i realise how much they have done to go from http://tarmak007.blogspot.com/search/la ... %20Vikrant to the Vikrant as it is today - this in a year

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby Atri » 13 Aug 2013 14:52

Anujan wrote:
RajitO wrote:Image

Back to the Vikrant...which of you Sanskrit scholars can help translate what's on the crest?


From Rig Veda "I defeat those who dare to fight me"


इंद्र त्वोतास आ वयं वज्रां घना ददीमही जयेम सं युधि स्पृधः - RV 1.8.3 - Oh Indra, Protected by you, we will destroy the one who attacks us using sharp and heavy weapons like Vajra....

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby Austin » 13 Aug 2013 16:15


SaiK
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby SaiK » 13 Aug 2013 17:02

Atri ji, perfect slok representing NFU.

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby nits » 13 Aug 2013 18:30

Between all this fun fare of operating two Carrier force... have we done calculations if we have all required support ships \ submarines to operate two full fledged carrier fleet.

Note that we will need dedicated ships \ aircraft \ submarines \ minesweeper with each AC when they go on patrols; and this valuable assets will not be available for other operations when dedicated to a carrier fleet...

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby Kakarat » 13 Aug 2013 18:44

I think we should start an Online petition to save the IMS Vikrant addressed to all the chief ministers of the costal states of India. We can get it signed by 1000s of people and hope at least one will be interested in saving this Piece of History


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