To be honest Rafale has two 75kN engines & TEDBF will have two 100-110kN engines, considering both about 25ton takeoff weight... There's simply no comparison (SH has far higher wingloading).John wrote:That said unless we move away from ski jumps you aren’t going to be able to launch even Rafale-m or SH with anything more than a limited payload.
INS Vikrant: News and Discussion
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion
Last edited by RishiChatterjee on 29 Jul 2021 19:26, edited 1 time in total.
Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion
Agreed, but that still does not take away from the fact that the MiG-29K can land and take off - from a ski jump - with Kh-31s and/or Kh-35s.
The video evidence is pretty clear on that fact.
The video evidence is pretty clear on that fact.
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion
Rakesh wrote:Agreed, but that still does not take away from the fact that the MiG-29K can land and take off - from a ski jump - with Kh-31s and Kh-35s.
Right.. Well, it seems I was wrong about that (probably hvt was too). That makes me really happy in this caseCain Marko wrote:Even the original mig29k bort 41? being tested from the kuz in the 80s were able to take off with a full 4500kg payload, that too from the smaller runway.RishiChatterjee wrote:
Lookinh for it, hold on... The payload issue from ski jumps is a thing. I've seen Murican navy vets making fun of Rusky carriers.
Possibly one of the reasons for not getting serpentine intakes, as they said it was to extract as much thrust as possible.
Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion
Maybe a silly question - but is the a/c in the video carrying dummies weighing less than the actual missile? HVT being wrong in such matters is very rare.Rakesh wrote:Agreed, but that still does not take away from the fact that the MiG-29K can land and take off - from a ski jump - with Kh-31s and/or Kh-35s.
The video evidence is pretty clear on that fact.
Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion
I searched HVT sir's tweets and couldn't find one that actually says this.Vivek K wrote:Maybe a silly question - but is the a/c in the video carrying dummies weighing less than the actual missile? HVT being wrong in such matters is very rare.Rakesh wrote:Agreed, but that still does not take away from the fact that the MiG-29K can land and take off - from a ski jump - with Kh-31s and/or Kh-35s.
The video evidence is pretty clear on that fact.
Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion
Yes but given the size and speed you have a very small window to intercept them.Aditya_V wrote:Question is then can Python V like R-73 have the capability to intercept incoming Cruise Missiles, then there can be case of limited LCA navy for INS Vikram Aditya, INS Vikrant and Shore based based defence of Ports in Peninsula India and, A& N islands. From shored based role then take over some of the IAF anti shipping roles also and possibly quickly drop light Torpedoss in areas where enemy Submarines have been detected.
There is FB photo showing Mig-29k parked in Vikram with 2 rocket pod and 2 Kh-35 + 4 AAM. Which is an interesting payload. I don’t think it’s for a photo op.
Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion
It isn't just about weapons carriage but overall weight you can launch. Within that limitation (generally speaking) you can always trade range for payload.
Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion
https://twitter.com/ANI/status/1422811135212875780?s=20
Proud & historic day for India as the reincarnated Vikrant (IAC) sails for her maiden sea trials today, in 50th yr of her illustrious predecessor’s key role in victory in the 1971 war. This is the largest & most complex warship ever to be designed & built in India: Navy officials
Proud & historic day for India as the reincarnated Vikrant (IAC) sails for her maiden sea trials today, in 50th yr of her illustrious predecessor’s key role in victory in the 1971 war. This is the largest & most complex warship ever to be designed & built in India: Navy officials
Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion
Congratulations to the Cochin shipyard for making the ship sail on her maiden voyage.
Best of luck to her crew and her captain for a successful and safe voyage.
May they find every flaw in the first voyage and fix it before the year is over. So that she can take her place in the fleet.
Best of luck to her crew and her captain for a successful and safe voyage.
May they find every flaw in the first voyage and fix it before the year is over. So that she can take her place in the fleet.
Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion
via@ANI 12:16 pm · 4 Aug 2021Proud & historic day for India as the reincarnated Vikrant (IAC) sails for her maiden sea trials today, in 50th yr of her illustrious predecessor’s key role in victory in the 1971 war.
This is the largest & most complex warship ever to be designed & built in India: Navy officials
WATCH VIDEO
via@indiannavy·1hProud & historic day for India as the reincarnated #Vikrant sails for her maiden sea trials today, in the 50th year of her illustrious predecessor’s key role in victory in the #1971war
Largest & most complex warship ever to be designed & built in India.
Many more will follow...
Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion
The windows of the bridge seem to be missing.
Don't see them shinning.
The crew will get wet in monsoon.
They will need to wear water proof clothing. Or they will catch cold.
What's with all the tug boats. Don't SDRE have engines.
Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion
The radar set up has been perplexing my brain for a while. I feel it is not MF-STAR.
The koreans have placed MF-STAR on their ship, with a similar layout like ours.
This is a ship commissioned in 21. There should have been a similar bulge like the Korean ship, but it is not there.
My personal view, it is our radar.
The koreans have placed MF-STAR on their ship, with a similar layout like ours.
This is a ship commissioned in 21. There should have been a similar bulge like the Korean ship, but it is not there.
My personal view, it is our radar.
Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion
Fantastic!
India needs to think big and start IAC2 very soon, to build upon the experience from Vikrant, to preserve and enhance this knowhow. This must be in addition to ongoing subs and other warships being built. A 5 trillion economy will need more defending.
India needs to think big and start IAC2 very soon, to build upon the experience from Vikrant, to preserve and enhance this knowhow. This must be in addition to ongoing subs and other warships being built. A 5 trillion economy will need more defending.
Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion
No, we need to start building the second ship in the same class. Dont want one-offs, we need fast copy paste. Make the second ship faster based on the learning. No need to undergo the cycle of design, justify the higher budget need, etc.
Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion
I used to be in the same boat, but after seeing discussions on the limitations of STOBAR, I think its time to take the plunge. CATOBAR 65K carrier, our domestic steel productions has improved, so have electronics, radar, etc. If we are building SSBNs and SSNs, we can use some of that tech to design one for warship propulsion.srin wrote:No, we need to start building the second ship in the same class. Don't want one-offs, we need fast copy paste. Make the second ship faster based on the learning. No need to undergo the cycle of design, justify the higher budget need, etc.
Better to start building two 65K Nuke powered carriers which can enter service in 2035 and 2040 - of course budget permitting.
Whatever we do - STOBAR conventional 45K or 65K CATOBAR - we should not waste the learnings from IAC-2 and keep the docks idle. Time to order the second carrier.
Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion
+108. Just with wider lifts.srin wrote:No, we need to start building the second ship in the same class. Dont want one-offs, we need fast copy paste. Make the second ship faster based on the learning. No need to undergo the cycle of design, justify the higher budget need, etc.
Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion
A real beauty she is!
To put it ironically ... "that ship has already sailed".srin wrote:we need to start building the second ship in the same class.
Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion
https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/14228 ... 74496?s=20 ---> For those of us, close to Naval Aviation, this is the most beautiful sight in a long time.
Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion
This is the only image I got which shows the radar is little more detail. Notice the thin link of the rectangular array, below the IFF.
May be it is MF-STAR, may be it is not. The other radar with IFF on the top is our ABM LRTR.
The super structure earlier had a hole similar to what a MF-STAR would need. This has been changed to a rectangle. I am becoming more confident, that this is our radar.
No IFF in earlier design.
May be it is MF-STAR, may be it is not. The other radar with IFF on the top is our ABM LRTR.
The super structure earlier had a hole similar to what a MF-STAR would need. This has been changed to a rectangle. I am becoming more confident, that this is our radar.
No IFF in earlier design.
Last edited by nam on 04 Aug 2021 20:54, edited 2 times in total.
Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion
MF-STAR is costly and very sophisticated. If somehow we have managed that by ourselves, then we have come a long way. That also means, more of our warships (even Frigates) can start having them.
Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion
Any chance of seeing the LCA Navy landing on this beauty soon in say 6 months time?
Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion
Thank you for that video. So happy to see her sailing on the open seas.sajaym wrote:A real beauty she is!
Sailed to the next port --> 65,000 ton CATOBAR. But the CDS is not budging and the Navy will not accept anything less than a CATOBAR. One side will have to give in, but it is not looking good for the Navy. This delay is hurting the Navy.sajaym wrote:To put it ironically ... "that ship has already sailed".srin wrote:we need to start building the second ship in the same class.
Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion
I edited your post and added the pictures in. What a gorgeous ship! Absolutely beautiful.sankum wrote:https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/14228 ... 74496?s=20 ---> For those of us, close to Naval Aviation, this is the most beautiful sight in a long time.
You can see the (small) lifts clearly. Hopefully during a mid life refit, she can go in for a surgery and widen those lifts.
Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion
Amazing . Great job guys posting lovely pictures.
Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion
IMHO there’s no radar in those towers, they’ll fit the MFSTAR at a later date, as can be seen from the above images where the VLS cells would be fitted are also panelled over. Weapons and final outfitting will come after sea trails are complete and she goes to pre-commissioning work up I guess.nam wrote:This is the only image I got which shows the radar is little more detail. Notice the thin link of the rectangular array, below the IFF.
May be it is MF-STAR, may be it is not. The other radar with IFF on the top is our ABM LRTR.
The super structure earlier had a hole similar to what a MF-STAR would need. This has been changed to a rectangle. I am becoming more confident, that this is our radar.
No IFF in earlier design.
+ Files will start to move on IAC-2 maybe in 4 years. Frankly I feel like for the best part of the next 2 decades IN will be a 2 carrier navy unless something major attention is given to the IN. SSNs only by 2030, downgrading LRMPA numbers, no minesweepers etc etc it’s pretty clear the navy is being given low priority status.
Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion
Anyone going to distribute .. mithai equal to the weight of the air carrier
Ah congrats to all involved
Ah congrats to all involved
Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion
Yes no MF STAR isn't the other radar Indra Lanza radar also being fitted on P-17a?nam wrote:May be it is MF-STAR, may be it is not. The other radar with IFF on the top is our ABM LRTR.
Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion
John, sorry...but what does that mean exactly?
Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion
John is it possible that the MF-STAR isnt fitted yet fully but is provisioned for and hence the blister radomes arent seen.John wrote:Yes no MF STAR isn't the other radar Indra Lanza radar also being fitted on P-17a?nam wrote:May be it is MF-STAR, may be it is not. The other radar with IFF on the top is our ABM LRTR.
The RAN 40L was supposed to be originally fitted right and then changed to the lanza i think!
Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion
Any used carrier's or flat-tops that will be available in 10 years time? We have to start planning for our third carrier replacement of Vikramaditya.
Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion
Seriously, India’s own designed and made aircraft carrier floated out under her own power today and you’re speaking of going backwards and buying off the shelf?Vips wrote:Any used carrier's or flat-tops that will be available in 10 years time? We have to start planning for ourthird carrierreplacement of Vikramaditya.
IAC-1 was first envisaged at a time when India’s entire economy wasn’t worth what even Mumbai’s GDP is today.
Work on IAC-2 will commence at a time when India’s economy is ~$5Tn to be commissioned by the time it is ~$10Tn.
No more imports should even be considered
John is it possible that the MF-STAR isnt fitted yet fully but is provisioned for and hence the blister radomes arent seen.andy B wrote:John wrote: Yes no MF STAR isn't the other radar Indra Lanza radar also being fitted on P-17a?
The RAN 40L was supposed to be originally fitted right and then changed to the lanza i think![/quotet]
RAN-40L is confirmed for IAC-1
https://twitter.com/parthu_potluri/stat ... 72768?s=21
Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion
We will be building the 3rd carrier if and when its size is decided and that will take at least 10-12 years to build but by then we will also need to replace the Vikramaditya, We need at least 3 carriers to have one carrier each in an operational mode for the east and west coast. so willy-nilly we will be in the market for a used carrier/flat-top, unless the Navy and our strategic planners are ok and happy operating a two pony stable.KSingh wrote:Seriously, India’s own designed and made aircraft carrier floated out under her own power today and you’re speaking of going backwards and buying off the shelf?Vips wrote:Any used carrier's or flat-tops that will be available in 10 years time? We have to start planning for ourthird carrierreplacement of Vikramaditya.
IAC-1 was first envisaged at a time when India’s entire economy wasn’t worth what even Mumbai’s GDP is today.
Work on IAC-2 will commence at a time when India’s economy is ~$5Tn to be commissioned by the time it is ~$10Tn.
No more imports should even be considered
Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion
I think for the next 20 years the IN is destined to be a 2 carrier navy as like you say by the time IAC-2 is ready Vikky will be ready for retirement. Even if a sister ship to IAC-2 is ordered it won’t follow IAC-2 for at least 5 yearsVips wrote:We will be building the 3rd carrier if and when its size is decided and that will take at least 10-12 years to build but by then we will also need to replace the Vikramaditya, We need at least 3 carriers to have one carrier each in an operational mode for the east and west coast. so willy-nilly we will be in the market for a used carrier/flat-top, unless the Navy and our strategic planners are ok and happy operating a two pony stable.KSingh wrote: Seriously, India’s own designed and made aircraft carrier floated out under her own power today and you’re speaking of going backwards and buying off the shelf?
IAC-1 was first envisaged at a time when India’s entire economy wasn’t worth what even Mumbai’s GDP is today.
Work on IAC-2 will commence at a time when India’s economy is ~$5Tn to be commissioned by the time it is ~$10Tn.
No more imports should even be considered
I’d like to be proven wrong, i had leans assumed IAC-2 would’ve been at least ordered by now, that is hasn’t answered likely won’t be this entire decade means the entire plan has to be re-imagined. This will be the most decade for Indian carrier construction.
Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion
Vips, the Navy's aircraft carrier strategy rests on having three aircraft carriers - one for each seaboard + 1 in reserve. The three are Vikrant, Vikramaditya + IAC2. There is no plan on the horizon to replace Vikramaditya in the near future (20 - 25 years).
Now the Navy is insisting that IAC-2 be a CATOBAR vessel. They will *NOT* entertain any other idea, other than a CATOBAR. So with that on the table, there are 2+1 countries operating or building a CATOBAR vessel.
1) US - They will not part with their 11 CATOBARs
2) France - They will not part with their only CATOBAR
3) China - Under Construction and the less said about Chinese maal, the better
You are not going to get a CATOBAR vessel from any of these three nations. So in the absence of such, what do you do? You build your own. And that is what the Navy wants. On the principle of used vs new, I will side with KSingh. We have had enough tamasha with used carriers i.e. namely Vikramaditya. So new build it must be.
They have a way out, drop the insistence (for now) of a CATOBAR and build another Vikrant Class vessel. They can have one by the end of this decade and they will have a three carrier navy, that they have always been dreaming of. By the end of this decade, they can start on the build of a CATOBAR vessel. And when she gets commissioned in 15 years, the Vikramaditya can be retired. This plan is roughly a 25 year timeframe, so relatively in line with the eventual retirement of the Vikramaditya.
Otherwise, the Indian Navy will remain a two carrier navy well into the next decade. The ball lies in the Navy's court.
Now the Navy is insisting that IAC-2 be a CATOBAR vessel. They will *NOT* entertain any other idea, other than a CATOBAR. So with that on the table, there are 2+1 countries operating or building a CATOBAR vessel.
1) US - They will not part with their 11 CATOBARs
2) France - They will not part with their only CATOBAR
3) China - Under Construction and the less said about Chinese maal, the better
You are not going to get a CATOBAR vessel from any of these three nations. So in the absence of such, what do you do? You build your own. And that is what the Navy wants. On the principle of used vs new, I will side with KSingh. We have had enough tamasha with used carriers i.e. namely Vikramaditya. So new build it must be.
They have a way out, drop the insistence (for now) of a CATOBAR and build another Vikrant Class vessel. They can have one by the end of this decade and they will have a three carrier navy, that they have always been dreaming of. By the end of this decade, they can start on the build of a CATOBAR vessel. And when she gets commissioned in 15 years, the Vikramaditya can be retired. This plan is roughly a 25 year timeframe, so relatively in line with the eventual retirement of the Vikramaditya.
Otherwise, the Indian Navy will remain a two carrier navy well into the next decade. The ball lies in the Navy's court.
Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion
Yea Leonardo was blacklisted it is possible we managed to snag one which raises bigger question of how we are going to property maintain it.KSingh wrote:The RAN 40L was supposed to be originally fitted right and then changed to the lanza i think
That said not 100% sure if it is RAN 40l, we don't know how a Tata built variant of naval Indra Lanza radar looks like and without front pic we cannot properly identify it.
Last edited by John on 05 Aug 2021 04:09, edited 1 time in total.
Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion
Quite valid reasoning. I think we will hear about firm plans for the next in a few years.Rakesh wrote:Vips, the Navy's aircraft carrier strategy rests on having three aircraft carriers - one for each seaboard + 1 in reserve. The three are Vikrant, Vikramaditya + IAC2. There is no plan on the horizon to replace Vikramaditya in the near future (20 - 25 years).
Now the Navy is insisting that IAC-2 be a CATOBAR vessel. They will *NOT* entertain any other idea, other than a CATOBAR. So with that on the table, there are 2+1 countries operating or building a CATOBAR vessel.
1) US - They will not part with their 11 CATOBARs
2) France - They will not part with their only CATOBAR
3) China - Under Construction and the less said about Chinese maal, the better
You are not going to get a CATOBAR vessel from any of these three nations. .
Now BR (not the forum!) is having BP even thinking about it
Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion
There is another option and quite attractive too, but not sure if it will work.
It will still be new build, but it is everything the Indian Navy wants (& more) in IAC2 - nuclear power, EMALS, 75K+ ton, etc. From that angle, she is perfect for the Navy. And it is the Porte-avions de nouvelle génération (PANG), which is French for new generation aircraft carrier. And she is a confirmed project for the French Navy, not some shipyard's imagination. It will be the French Navy's second aircraft carrier after the Charles De Gaulle and is expected to arrive in the 2030s.
Advantages
1) Cost sharing with the French, which will lower the overall cost of both vessels
2) Give the Indian Naval Design Bureau insight into how a nuclear powered & CATOBAR aircraft carrier is constructed
3) Eliminates much of the delay in designing and building your own CATOBAR
4) Rafale M, which the Indian Navy favours because of the Rafale in the IAF
5) EMALS which is the new generation catapult system
Disadvantages
1) Sharing the reactor tech with India
2) Sharing the aircraft carrier tech with India
3) Assuming 1 & 2 passes, our MoD Babus will get asthma attack when they see the astronomical cost the French will charge for this.
Drop the nuclear reactor & substitute for conventional power and the cost will come down significantly. But then the cost savings for the French may not exist. Below is the PANG design...
It will still be new build, but it is everything the Indian Navy wants (& more) in IAC2 - nuclear power, EMALS, 75K+ ton, etc. From that angle, she is perfect for the Navy. And it is the Porte-avions de nouvelle génération (PANG), which is French for new generation aircraft carrier. And she is a confirmed project for the French Navy, not some shipyard's imagination. It will be the French Navy's second aircraft carrier after the Charles De Gaulle and is expected to arrive in the 2030s.
Advantages
1) Cost sharing with the French, which will lower the overall cost of both vessels
2) Give the Indian Naval Design Bureau insight into how a nuclear powered & CATOBAR aircraft carrier is constructed
3) Eliminates much of the delay in designing and building your own CATOBAR
4) Rafale M, which the Indian Navy favours because of the Rafale in the IAF
5) EMALS which is the new generation catapult system
Disadvantages
1) Sharing the reactor tech with India
2) Sharing the aircraft carrier tech with India
3) Assuming 1 & 2 passes, our MoD Babus will get asthma attack when they see the astronomical cost the French will charge for this.
Drop the nuclear reactor & substitute for conventional power and the cost will come down significantly. But then the cost savings for the French may not exist. Below is the PANG design...
Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion
The infrastructure to support refueling, plus the storage/disposal of nuclear fuel for a single ship could be cost prohibitive as well. Whereas the infrastructure to support the future SSN and SSBNs are in the works, I have not seen such for a nuclear powered surface fleet.Rakesh wrote:
Disadvantages
1) Sharing the reactor tech with India
2) Sharing the aircraft carrier tech with India
3) Assuming 1 & 2 passes, our MoD Babus will get asthma attack when they see the astronomical cost the French will charge for this.
Drop the nuclear reactor & substitute for conventional power and the cost will come down significantly. But then the cost savings for the French may not exist.
Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion
Good point gpurewal-ji.
I remember former CNS, Admiral Sunil Lanba getting a presentation on LEU reactors that power the French Navy's Barracuda Class SSNs. The buzz back then was that a similar reactor design could be used for the Indian Navy's own SSN program. Not sure what came of it.
Why Admiral Sunil Lanba’s visit to a French nuclear shipyard is significant
https://www.dailyo.in/politics/admiral- ... 20543.html
12 November 2017
https://twitter.com/livefist/status/929287862138281984 ---> And here’s the Indian Navy Chief scoping out the Barracuda SSN build/maintenance architecture at Naval Group’s VR (Virtual Reality) centre at Cherbourg.
https://twitter.com/livefist/status/928938303285374976 --> Indian Navy Chief, Admiral Sunil Lanba briefed on Naval Group's Barracuda Class nuclear attack submarine at Cherbourg, France yesterday.
I remember former CNS, Admiral Sunil Lanba getting a presentation on LEU reactors that power the French Navy's Barracuda Class SSNs. The buzz back then was that a similar reactor design could be used for the Indian Navy's own SSN program. Not sure what came of it.
Why Admiral Sunil Lanba’s visit to a French nuclear shipyard is significant
https://www.dailyo.in/politics/admiral- ... 20543.html
12 November 2017
https://twitter.com/livefist/status/929287862138281984 ---> And here’s the Indian Navy Chief scoping out the Barracuda SSN build/maintenance architecture at Naval Group’s VR (Virtual Reality) centre at Cherbourg.
https://twitter.com/livefist/status/928938303285374976 --> Indian Navy Chief, Admiral Sunil Lanba briefed on Naval Group's Barracuda Class nuclear attack submarine at Cherbourg, France yesterday.
Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion
PANG won't be entering service till the second half of the 2030's and it is likely going to be delayed given the complexity involved. IAC-1 is now in the water. If the IN does not require nuclear propulsion then it should simply iterate this design to meet budget, schedule and performance requirements for the future carrier aviation needs. Larger lifts to allow multiple aircraft, more power and cooling, and perhaps a Catapult if the IN thinks it will need larger payloads, naval 5GFA, or a more diverse and capable air-wing in the future. All of those things can be incrementally added to the basic design without throwing the entire design effort away and joining a 15-20 year French project which probably won't deploy operationally till 2040.