INS Vikrant: News and Discussion

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Rakesh
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

Rakesh wrote:Both the Rafale M and the F-18 will be able to carry a pair of anti-ship missiles, a pair of CCMs + drop tanks to protect the carrier strike group from enemy surface combatants during war. Additional aircraft - with BVRAAMs + CCMs + drop tanks - can be added as escorts for these strike aircraft as well. These tests that Dassault and Boeing are doing at the SBTF in Goa, is to test the viability of these aircraft operating from a ski jump with such a payload.
https://twitter.com/RAFIndia_/status/14 ... 15234?s=20 ---> Rafale M trial from SBTF continues...

• Aircraft is armed with two to four air-to-air missiles and one Exocet missile.
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by venkat_kv »

Rakesh wrote:
John wrote:Since beginning we been very non transparent with what is happening with Mig-29k, while deal is for Vikrant I believe depending on AC chosen it will replace Air arm for Vikramaditya as well. If enough ACs are procured it make sense to gradually transfer 29k to IAF that’s the option that makes most sense, especially given the cost of operating two different platforms and potentially three when TEDBF is ready.
The initial deal was for 57 aircraft, to be divided into three squadrons (18 aircraft each) + 3 spare airframes. The three units were to be allocated for each of the three aircraft carriers. That is *NOT* happening, as IAC-2 is now scheduled to arrive only by 2040 when INS Vikramaditya retires.
.....
Rakesh Saar/Yagnasri/Lakshman PST,
when everyone says that INS Vikramaditya is going to retire by 2040, is it because it will reach the end of its life or are we just getting rid of it as the OPPEX will be far higher to maintain that ship with its assorted issues?
In the worst case that the ship still has residual life, can we use it as a heli-carrier and use drones which will be far easier on it than say Mig-29K?
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

Rakesh wrote: https://twitter.com/RAFIndia_/status/14 ... 15234?s=20 ---> Rafale M trial from SBTF continues...

• Aircraft is armed with two to four air-to-air missiles and one Exocet missile.
One can clearly see the Exocet (in white) in the centreline pylon. This is the AM-39 variant of the Exocet. All open source info states that the air-launched version of the Harpoon (AGM-84K) will be longer in range (270 km vs 70 km) when compared to the AM-39. Wiki states that the maximum range of the AM-39 depends on the altitude and speed of the aircraft, but it still will not exceed that of the AGM-84K. The Harpoon also carries a heavier warhead (800 lbs versus 364 lbs) when compared to the Exocet. Plus the F-18 - with a pair of GE F414 turbofans - will also have more thrust (max wet thrust of 196 kN vs max wet thrust of 150 kN from the pair of M-88s) which will result in a heavier payload.

The Indian Navy's P-8I fleet uses a Harpoon variant (AGM-84L) which has a range of 124 km. I am not sure which variant of the Harpoon is on offer to the IN for the F-18SH. Brar, any inputs you can provide?

More tests are expected with Meteor + Mica combo, Meteor + Exocet combo, etc. All tests will include drop tanks as well.

https://twitter.com/AnirudhGB/status/14 ... 88741?s=20 ---> Rafale M spotted carrying:
• 2 x 2000 litre drop tanks
• 4 x MICA AAMs
• 1 x Exocet anti ship missile.

Not too bad considering it took off from SBTF at INS Hansa which has a inclination of 14°

https://twitter.com/Dish_Troyer/status/ ... 97348?s=20 ---> Loaded...

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

venkat_kv wrote:Rakesh Saar/Yagnasri/Lakshman PST,
when everyone says that INS Vikramaditya is going to retire by 2040, is it because it will reach the end of its life or are we just getting rid of it as the OPEX will be far higher to maintain that ship with its assorted issues?
In the worst case that the ship still has residual life, can we use it as a heli-carrier and use drones which will be far easier on it than say Mig-29K?
Why the saar? :)

INS Vikramaditya is a heavily modified Kiev Class aircraft carrier. Four vessels were built (Kiev, Minsk, Novorossiysk and Admiral Gorshkov). The first two were sold to China to be used as hotel/museum. Although we all know the real purpose of hotel/museum. The third suffered a fire in 1993, was sold to North Korea in 1995 and was broken up there in 1997. The fourth (Admiral Gorshkov) was converted into INS Vikramaditya after an overpriced refit. Therefore she is the only vessel remaining in her class.

The upside is that during her refit, most - if not all - of her machinery was replaced. However the quality of materials used was subpar, as evident from the boilers that failed. The navy has not indicated what the availability has been since her commissioning in 2013, but I am sure it would be nothing to crow about. As time passes, she will likely continue to offer sub-optimal availability. This *MIGHT* place additional stress on the Vikrant (and her crew) to increase her annual at-sea availability.

Continuing with the Vikramaditya will increase the Navy's annual OPEX, but for now there is nothing that can be done. The navy has to bear this burden. However just keeping her harboured in port may not be ideal either, as the machinery may not function if not used for a length of time. I am not a mechanical/naval engineer, so someone can hopefully plug in here and advise. Nether is the MiG-29's availability anything great either. The Vikramaditya is a mess, so forget heli carrier and drones.

It is for this reason, why a follow on Vikrant Class vessel makes ample sense. Quicker arrival time than the bells-and-whistles IAC-2. Can also result in the Navy having two aircraft carriers (Vikrant + follow-on Vikrant) versus just one (Vikrant). I am in full support of the bells-and-whistles IAC-2, but time is not something the Indian Navy has on her side. Why wait till 2040 for IAC-2, when the Navy can have Vikrant + follow-on Vikrant + IAC-2 by the early 2040s?
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by brar_w »

Rakesh wrote:
The Indian Navy's P-8I fleet uses a Harpoon variant (AGM-84L) which has a range of 124 km. I am not sure which variant of the Harpoon is on offer to the IN for the F-18SH. Brar, any inputs you can provide?
There are three current anti-ship/surface attack weapons operational on the SH, and another that will be available from 2024. The Block 2 and 2+ Harpoon should have a 200+ km range when launched from a fast jet. The 2+ variant is fully networked which I don't think is currently offered in the Exocet family (though I could be wrong). Then there is the unpowered JSOW-C which has surface attack capability using a passive IIR seeker. This is also fully networked via LOS data-link. Finally there's the LRASM which is an autonomous networked (including beyond LOS networking) weapon with 500-900 km range. The Kongsberg/Raytheon Joint Strike Missile (also LOS networked) will also be available for F/A-18 E/F starting 2024. The US Navy has also added an anti-ship mode to its SEAD weapon (AARGM) and has demonstrated that in live testing. One would assume that its successor the Extended Range version will retain this capability since it uses the same guidance.
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Aditya G »

Rakesh wrote:...However the quality of materials used was subpar, as evident from the boilers that failed...
The failure was due to a new, non-absestos lining insisted by IN. Post incident the lining was replaced by conventional absestos and issue was rectified.
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Barath »

Aditya G wrote:...
The failure was due to a new, non-absestos lining insisted by IN. Post incident the lining was replaced by conventional absestos and issue was rectified.
Agree with Aditya. But the IN had justification. The original boilers were specified with asbestos insulation. Since asbestos is not good for the environment (potential carcinogen risk during degradation,) many countries started phasing it out or banning it. That's why the IN specified new ceramic linings during the refit, which were not up to the task. Thus back to asbestos lining after the initial trials. https://stratpost.com/ins-vikramaditya- ... y-delayed/
Fun photo: Boiler rooms of the Kuznetsova, the Liaoning and the Vikramaditya https://twitter.com/CavasShips/status/7 ... 6026924032
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Barath »

Pratyush wrote: It would have been possible for our designers to add a 10 k tons hull plug in front of the island. With a length of 30 meters and the beam of ship.
The longer ship you proposed would be longer than the dry docks it was constructed in, or available. In fact, CSL is just now in process of constructing a larger dry dockfor future aircraft carriers and oil and gas vessels; available July 2023 onwards. Maintenance dry docks(other than CSL)/ permanent berth would still be a potential challenge for future carriers. Naval dockyard mumbai can handle only IAC-1 size carriers . The IAC-1 heritage started with a smaller ship, that grew over time. Cost has also increased.
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by ramana »

It is good to keep it as a helicopter carrier for a few more years after the replacement carrier joins the force.
OPEX is much less than the CAPEX. And increased with justication.
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

Self explanatory, but nice to see somebody finally report this.

Please ignore the title, as they quoted the Hindustan Times article on that. I have posted that HT article as well, below this article.

India could lease four or five Rafale Marine for the aircraft carrier INS Vikrant
http://www.opex360.com/2022/01/02/linde ... s-vikrant/
02 Jan 2022
According to the Indian press, the Rafale Marine will therefore be subjected to “intensive” tests for nearly twelve days, from the ground test facility [SBTF] at the INS Hansa naval base in Goa. This will include verifying its ability to take off from a 283-meter-long flight deck equipped with a springboard, such as that of INS Vikrant, the first Indian-designed aircraft carrier whose admission to the active service is scheduled for August 2022. And also to see if its dimensions are compatible with the elevators installed on board this ship.
Theoretically, and according to a study quoted by Mer&Marine in 2012, the Rafale Marine is able to take off from an aircraft carrier in STOBAR configuration. And this, without structural modification compared to the devices of the French Navy.
The article below talks about the Rafale M or F-18 for operations aboard Vikramaditya, but I believe they meant Vikrant. If anyone can verify the claims, in the quoted portions below, it would be nice.

Nuke capable Rafale-M tested for INS Vikrant in Goa
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... 76996.html
07 Jan 2022
The Rafale-M's dimensions also mean more of them (14) can fit onto the deck of the Vikramaditya as compared to 10 or 11 F-18s. It also requires very minimal modification to the wheel-chokes of the Vikramaditya, which are reversible and can be de-modified, if required.
The Rafale-M can carry up to four-five tonnes of external load (with full internal fuel) for a ski take-off. With lesser internal fuel, it can carry more weapons depending upon mission requirements. Thus it can carry out all roles, including combat air patrol, intercept, AD escort, as well as sea and land-strike with full internal fuel.
Officials familiar with the matter also added that unlike the F-18s, which requires the carriers to be fitted with a new carrier optical landing system, the Rafale M’s can work with the existing one on the Vikramaditya.
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by ramana »

Chocks not chokes. Damn reporters.
Chocks are blocks placed under the wheels to prevent motion.
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by ramana »

Rakesh the plan is to have them below deck on the INS Vikrant. And hence the lift checkout.
On the INS Vikramaditya, it is to have them above deck in a pinch.
Not the writer compared the on-deck space for both Rafale M (14) and F-18s(10 or 11)
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by k prasad »

The Rafale-M's dimensions also mean more of them (14) can fit onto the deck of the Vikramaditya as compared to 10 or 11 F-18s. It also requires very minimal modification to the wheel-chokes of the Vikramaditya, which are reversible and can be de-modified, if required.
Comparing the dimensions:

F-18 E/F:
Length: 18.31 m
Wingspan (folded): 9.32 m
Wingspan (open): 13.62 m
Height: 4.88 m

Rafale M:
Length: 15.30 m
Wingspan (folded): NA
Wingspan (open): 10.80 m
Height: 5.30 m

Mig-29K:
Length: 17.30 m
Wingspan (folded): 7.50 m (uncorroborated)
Wingspan (open): 11.99 m
Height: 4.40 m

The F-18 folded wingspan vs Rafale's open wingspan doesn't seem to differ by very much (1.5 m), while the F-18's open wingspan is about 3 m wider than the Rafale's. Length too is significantly larger on the F-18, and while it might allow for some overhang off the starboard hull from the flight deck, it would very likely still take up extra real estate.

Sortie rate will be determined partly by how quickly can the aircraft be moved from the hanger, through the elevators and then on the flight deck, and how easy and quickly can weapons be loaded onto the hardpoints. While the F-18 MIGHT fit through the elevators if set at a skewed angle (i suspect the length is the big concern here), it'll certainly eat up a LOT of time in maneuvering the F-18 into and from the elevators. Plus, fewer aircraft with unfolded wings on the flight deck can also impact flight readiness.

Only real questions here will be (1) Can the Rafale fit through the Vikrant lifts, and how much will the solution found to shove off the 1-1.3 m required for clearing the 10m wide lift adversely affect sortie rate, and (2) how much do we lose in terms of hanger space and maintainability and operational readiness with the non-folding wings?

If (1) is figured out, then (2) might be a non-issue given that the Rafale is 3 m less in length than the F-18, so could actually fit more in the hanger.

Officials familiar with the matter also added that unlike the F-18s, which requires the carriers to be fitted with a new carrier optical landing system, the Rafale M’s can work with the existing one on the Vikramaditya.
This is interesting, given that the Rafale M and F-18's have taken off and landed off each other's Navy's carriers, so I'd assume that there's some flexibility in their ability to operate with other OLS's?
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Prem Kumar »

Barath wrote:
Aditya G wrote:...
The failure was due to a new, non-absestos lining insisted by IN. Post incident the lining was replaced by conventional absestos and issue was rectified.
Agree with Aditya. But the IN had justification. The original boilers were specified with asbestos insulation. Since asbestos is not good for the environment (potential carcinogen risk during degradation,) many countries started phasing it out or banning it. That's why the IN specified new ceramic linings during the refit, which were not up to the task. Thus back to asbestos lining after the initial trials. https://stratpost.com/ins-vikramaditya- ... y-delayed/
Fun photo: Boiler rooms of the Kuznetsova, the Liaoning and the Vikramaditya https://twitter.com/CavasShips/status/7 ... 6026924032
Asbestos is a known carcinogenic and been stopped even in residential & commercial construction. Our sailors will be exposed to it for a decade and that too on an aging ship.
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by k prasad »

Prem Kumar wrote:
Barath wrote: Agree with Aditya. But the IN had justification. The original boilers were specified with asbestos insulation. Since asbestos is not good for the environment (potential carcinogen risk during degradation,) many countries started phasing it out or banning it. That's why the IN specified new ceramic linings during the refit, which were not up to the task. Thus back to asbestos lining after the initial trials. https://stratpost.com/ins-vikramaditya- ... y-delayed/
Fun photo: Boiler rooms of the Kuznetsova, the Liaoning and the Vikramaditya https://twitter.com/CavasShips/status/7 ... 6026924032
Asbestos is a known carcinogenic and been stopped even in residential & commercial construction. Our sailors will be exposed to it for a decade and that too on an aging ship.
It is a significant issue, but as long as they don't disturb the asbestos and cause it to become airborne particulates, a reasonable amount of the risk can be reduced. We had an older building here on campus that they decided NOT to go in for asbestos removal because it was quite expensive, and was not an immediate danger as long as it hadn't degraded. Hopefully they have mitigation measures in place to reduce the risk significantly for those working in the boiler rooms.
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

k prasad wrote:Comparing the dimensions:
Thank you for posting the info. Greatly appreciated.
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by k prasad »

Rakesh wrote:
k prasad wrote:Comparing the dimensions:
Thank you for posting the info. Greatly appreciated.
Glad to help Rakeshji. Btw, this link references an IDRW report mentioning estimates that Vikrant's aircraft lifts are 11.20 m x 16.5 m, which, if true, would actually be just about enough for the Rafale to get through.

Based on this, I created an approximate comparison between the Rafale-M and the F-18E on the Vikrant's aircraft lifts. The black and red scale bars are 12 m x 20 m total

The Rafale M JUST about fits, with 20 cm clearance on either side, after removing any armaments from the wingtip pylons. Length is not an issue at all. The F/A-18E with folded wings has more than enough clearance, but will probably have some issues maneuvering into hanger if the length becomes a problem. That said, the size comparison is really interesting in terms of real estate required both on the flight deck and in the hanger space.

Image
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by sankum »

In INS VIKRANT there is turntable to turn aircraft in front of both lifts.
Question is what is width of hanger. In Google Earth it is estimated at 21m. It can very well be 22 or 23 m.
Italian carrier on which INS Vikrant is based has hanger of 134 m by 21m.
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

prasad, that is an amazing post. thank you for doing that.

-----------------------

An excellent article highlighting the differences between the Rafale M (Naval variant) and Rafale C/B (Air Force variant). Gives a good insight into what the IN will have to work with on the Vikrant, if the Rafale M is chosen.

When you click on the link below, the article may load up in French. But not to worry....at the top right of the article, there is an option to select English and even Hindi :)

Differences between the Rafale Marine and "Air"
https://omnirole-rafale.com/differences ... ne-et-air/
29 April 2020
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by ramana »

Prasad, Can you stack the aircraft side by side on a Vikramaditya flight deck and see how they look?
Offcourse approximate dimensions only.
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Roop »

ramana wrote:On the INS Vikramaditya, it is to have them above deck in a pinch.
I don't think that would work for maintenance operations. It's fine when the ship is under way and not doing anything interesting. But in intensive carrier air ops, there is always some maintenance required on the aircraft. That maintenance has to be done in a hangar, not on deck in the open. What if it's raining?
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by sankum »

Rafale M cannot go in the hanger of INS Vikramaditya as it has two lifts of width 8.6 m and 9.6m as far as I remember.
It will only be used on INS Vikrant.
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by sankum »

INS Vikrant standard load is 20 Mig 29 k + 10 Helicopters.
Should be able to carry 10 Rafales in place of 12 Mig 29 k on deck. Total 18 Rafales + 10 Helis.
INS Vikramaditya can carry 13 Mig 29 k +2 Helicopters on deck.
Should be able to carry 9 Rafale in place of 13 Mig 29 k on deck.
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by k prasad »

ramana wrote:Prasad, Can you stack the aircraft side by side on a Vikramaditya flight deck and see how they look?
Offcourse approximate dimensions only.
Ramana Saar... this is very very rough, and not on the Vikramaditya, but on the Vikrant (which I figured might be a better comparison since the Vikramaditya's lifts aren't big enough to host the Rafale).

I got the top view of the Vikramaditya from https://postimg.cc/Bt7DBTff, linked from https://idrw.org/ins-vikrant-will-small ... m-or-f-18/, scaled the pixels accordingly, and roughly stacked the Rafales on the deck, trying to stay aligned with the parking lines.

Image

Looks like 10 on the flight deck at the very least... maybe a 11th near the ski ramp, if the infrastructure allows, and possibly up to 12-13 if they can use one or two of the aircraft lifts as parking spots.

I have also shown a Rafale on the fore aircraft lift, and it looks like the dimensions I stated in my earlier post from IDRW might be somewhat incorrect, at least based on the overlap. The width looks about right, because you can kinda see a really tight fit, but the length seems a little bit shorter than my 16.5 m post earlier.

I have also tried a more crowded parking configuration with oblique angles, and one aircraft parked facing seaward... allows for 13 aircraft on deck (+ 2 on the lifts, if possible). This probably has a lot of issues, and might not work, but here it is, for completeness.

Image
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by sankum »

Thanks k Prasad. INS Vikrant will carry 10 Rafales in place of 12 Mig 29 parked.
You need sufficient space for the fighters to safely and quickly move around. Two more Rafales can be parked on take off spots for a combat group of 12 fighters. ( Maximum fighters which can take off and land in one go for a mission.)
There has to be space for heli operations also.
INS Vikramaditya deck is more cramped than INS Vikrant and will carry less Rafales.
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by k prasad »

sankum wrote:INS Vikramaditya deck is more cramped than INS Vikrant and will carry less Rafales.
That's assuming they can even figure out a solution to getting the Rafales through the INS Vikramaditya's aircraft lifts. Else, Vikramaditya stays with its Mig-29Ks.

As a note to my pictures above, I might have wrongly measured the length of the Vikrant in pixels -- i measured from left to right, but the ship's length, if measured slightly obliquely, will be a little bit longer, in which case, the Rafales should've been scaled to be a little bit smaller than they appear now, maybe 95%-98% of the size here. It won't change the picture a lot.

And yes, for sortie rate, it will probably be better to keep the deck not too crowded, if the weapons fit and other combat op readiness can be done in the hanger before moving up to the flight deck. That however will probably still require wingtip armaments to be loaded on the top deck, else the aircraft cannot fit on the lifts.
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/VinodDX9/status/148 ... 40323?s=20 ---> MiG-29K in the elevator onboard INS Vikramaditya

Image
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by nam »

The news that we have dropped plans to import the moth balled mig29 could mean that a decision has been taken to hand over vikrant's mig29k to IAF.

The testing of rafale and f18 seems to be a result of that decision.
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

Indian Navy MiG-29s will not be transferred to the IAF.
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by sankum »

Yes, present 41 Mig 29 k will reduce to 32 nos by normal attrition till they retire by 2040 along with INS Vikramaditya after completing 4000 hr life @ 150 hr/ year or even earlier if usage is higher.

You need 26 Rafales for INS Vikrant airwing till TEDBF is available.
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Nick_S »

Rakesh wrote: https://twitter.com/ReviewVayu/status/1 ... 09858?s=20 ---> Northrop Grumman has delivered the 51st U.S. Navy E-2D Advanced Hawkeye production aircraft, AA-52. This aircraft is equipped with the Delta System/Software Configuration (DSSC) Build 3, which provides an additional leap in operational effectiveness and technology for the E-2D Advanced Hawkeye.
How big of a lift do you need to fit these in? Other than STOBAR issue, not sure if Vikrant's lifts could fit these in.
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by brar_w »

Nick_S wrote:How big of a lift do you need to fit these in? Other than STOBAR issue, not sure if Vikrant's lifts could fit these in.
Fitting a catapult to launch them may be harder though :rotfl:
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by k prasad »

Nick_S wrote:
Rakesh wrote: https://twitter.com/ReviewVayu/status/1 ... 09858?s=20 ---> Northrop Grumman has delivered the 51st U.S. Navy E-2D Advanced Hawkeye production aircraft, AA-52. This aircraft is equipped with the Delta System/Software Configuration (DSSC) Build 3, which provides an additional leap in operational effectiveness and technology for the E-2D Advanced Hawkeye.
How big of a lift do you need to fit these in? Other than STOBAR issue, not sure if Vikrant's lifts could fit these in.
Actually, it might be much easier to fit these in the Vikrant lift than the Rafale... Checking this image from https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/2 ... r-operator, you can see that the wings actually fold pretty well to within the 24 ft (7.3 m) diameter radome, which, even if we add a meter on either side for the propellors, will be well within the 11.2 m wide Vikrant lifts.

Image

Length & Height might not be an issue. The E2D is 17.6 m long and 5.58 m high, nearly a meter shorter than the F/A-18E/F, and just a foot taller than the Rafale (5.30 m). If both F-18 & Rafale fit in the Vikrant, E2D could as well.

The bigger issues I see are:

1) Is there enough clearance for the Hawkeye to take-off & land with its 80 ft wings unfolded, or does that require the deck to be cleared, which affects combat ops.

2) Can the airframe handle the extra stress of STOBAR takeoff, will it cause tail strikes?

3) Can take off in the approximately 500 ft length available on Vikrant using the retractable wheel chocks? Does the Vikrant have the capability to have different wheel chocks for different aircraft types during takeoff?

Online search suggests a minimum takeoff distance (ground roll) of 1346 ft, 1850 ft at MTOW.

Given the 5100 x 2 eshp x 2.5 factor = 25,500 lbf total thrust of the Hawkeye engines, 170 mph = 148 kts T/O speed at MTOW, a takeoff length of 180 m off a 14 deg, 45 m long ramp with 30 kts wind-over-deck, an assumed L/D ratio of 9, this STOBAR simulator suggests that the Hawkeye COULD take-off from a ski-ramp at 47,000 lb (approx.) weight. That said, the margins seem to be quite thin, so it might be fairly risky.
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Nick_S »

Thanks Prasad.

Perhaps Point 3 could potentially be achieved via RATO. Though that would probably result in additional stress points on the airframe.
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Prasad »

How do you go RATO with sailors on the deck?
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by brar_w »

A RATO of an E-2D on a ski ramp. That's some imagination..
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

I distinctly remember discussion about putting the E2 on Vikramaditya. I think Northrop Grumman suggested that it was possible to do so.
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

Pratyush wrote:I distinctly remember discussion about putting the E2 on Vikramaditya. I think Northrop Grumman suggested that it was possible to do so.
Northrop Grumman did offer the E2-D to the Indian Navy. However, Northrop Grumman did not suggest that it can operate from the Vikramaditya or the Vikrant. See this article from Gulshan Luthra from Sept 2009. Any E2-D purchase and subsequent deployment by the Indian Navy, will have to be from land-based, naval air stations. The E2-D will require a catapult launch. A ski jump will not cut it.

US clears Hawkeye E-2D aircraft for India
https://www.indiastrategic.in/topstories380.htm
Sept 2009
Indian Naval officials say that the technology onboard the Hawkeye E-2D is “very tempting” and that although neither the Gorshkov aircraft carrier which India is buying from Russia nor India’s first aircraft carrier indigenously being built would be able to accommodate this aircraft, India’s future aircraft carriers could be a little bigger. “By the time this aircraft comes, and by the time the Indian Navy gets used to it from initial shore-based operations, plans for two more aircraft carriers could be amended to house this system.”
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Prasad »

If it is going to be land-based, the E-2 won't cut it. Needs to be a giant widebody to meet range and time on station requirements.
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

Prasad wrote:If it is going to be land-based, the E-2 won't cut it. Needs to be a giant widebody to meet range and time on station requirements.
That is where the A319 AEW&C will have to come in. While doable, I don't believe it will be an optimal solution though. You will need a sizeable fleet to provide the kind of early warning coverage that an aircraft carrier would need in a zone of conflict.
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