INS Vikrant: News and Discussion

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Re: INS Vikrant: News and Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

fanne wrote:this was unexpected. I was hoping for Navy to say Rafale is better. By saying both are good and govt chooses Rafale, BIF with SC will cry corruption. I guess Rafale M has to wait after GE2024 election. All thanks to over smart IN brass who could not decide between two planes which is better (or were snared in taking this line so that they can contribute to the BIF agenda).
1) Both aircraft have been graded as per the Navy's requirements.

2) Both aircraft have passed the minimum grade.

3) One aircraft got a higher grade than the other.

Admiral Hari Kumar is not saying anything disappointing. He is just stating the facts. Sharing resources - as the CNS stated above - between services, is the best path forward. The CNS should not usurp the announcement of the chosen MRCBF. It will open a can of worms.
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Re: INS Vikrant: News and Discussion

Post by ramana »

Fanne, off late you are seeing dark linings in silver clouds!!!

Come on, be optimistic.
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Re: INS Vikrant: News and Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

Now the first picture below is a definite keeper. Raksha Mantri is sitting in the twin seater NP-1 Naval Tejas.

https://twitter.com/delhidefence/status ... 57251?s=20 ---> Glimpses of Naval Commanders' Conference onboard INS Vikrant in the Arabian Sea, off Goa. Defence Minister Rajnath Singh was briefed on the LCA Navy onboard the carrier by Commodore Shivnath Dahiya, and witnessed various evolution of carrier and fleet operations.

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Re: INS Vikrant: News and Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

Very nice - VCNS, CNS, VCDS, CDS, Raksha Mantri and other senior military and civilian leaders. See the optics of this photo. India is hosting a Military Commanders Conference aboard an indigenous aircraft carrier, INS Vikrant with the indigenous Naval Tejas in the background. MiG-29Ks, Kamovs, a Sea King Mk 42C and a HAL Chetak can also be seen.

https://twitter.com/manupubby/status/16 ... 99009?s=20 ---> Onboard for the Navy Commanders Conference.

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https://twitter.com/livefist/status/163 ... 41701?s=20 ---> Dhruv Mk III used in the MR (Marine Reconnaissance) role can be seen at left.

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Re: INS Vikrant: News and Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/163 ... 41701?s=20 ---> Defence Minister Rajnath Singh's pre-Holi celebration with sailors on board the Indian Navy's aircraft carrier INS Vikrant.

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Re: INS Vikrant: News and Discussion

Post by williams »

Rakesh wrote:Very nice - VCNS, CNS, VCDS, CDS, Raksha Mantri and other senior military and civilian leaders. See the optics of this photo. India is hosting a Military Commanders Conference aboard an indigenous aircraft carrier, INS Vikrant with the indigenous Naval Tejas in the background. MiG-29Ks, Kamovs, a Sea King Mk 42C and a HAL Chetak can also be seen.

https://twitter.com/manupubby/status/16 ... 99009?s=20 ---> Onboard for the Navy Commanders Conference.
I wonder who is the lady in the right corner. Is that Dr. Tessy Thomas?
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Re: INS Vikrant: News and Discussion

Post by Avid »

Rakesh wrote:
fanne wrote:this was unexpected. I was hoping for Navy to say Rafale is better. By saying both are good and govt chooses Rafale, BIF with SC will cry corruption. I guess Rafale M has to wait after GE2024 election. All thanks to over smart IN brass who could not decide between two planes which is better (or were snared in taking this line so that they can contribute to the BIF agenda).
1) Both aircraft have been graded as per the Navy's requirements.

2) Both aircraft have passed the minimum grade.

3) One aircraft got a higher grade than the other.

Admiral Hari Kumar is not saying anything disappointing. He is just stating the facts. Sharing resources - as the CNS stated above - between services, is the best path forward. The CNS should not usurp the announcement of the chosen MRCBF. It will open a can of worms.
Rakesh-ji, with TEDBF slated to come in 12 years time; and LCA MK2 slated to arrive sooner -- wouldn't you think the compromise for accepting the FA-18SH serves the purpose? Especially if -- a) the aircraft arrives much sooner than Rafale-M to plug the acute necessity; and b) if it bring F-414 manufacturing to India which is central to the pipeline of aircrafts to come.

What do you think is the probability that the current order will be expanded to include for both carriers (replace the Mig-29K)?
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Re: INS Vikrant: News and Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

Avid wrote:Rakesh-ji...
Why the -ji? :) And my apologies in advance for a long post.
Avid wrote:...with TEDBF slated to come in 12 years time; and LCA MK2 slated to arrive sooner...
TEDBF is not coming in 12 years. Despite all the well intentioned plans, TEDBF will be delayed. It exists only on the drawing board as of now and in scale models.

I am not an aviation guru, but we have not even reached PDR (Preliminary Design Review) stage with the TEDBF. I am sure there are stages even prior to this (i.e. wind tunnel tests, etc). After PDR, will come CDR (Critical Design Review), then fabrication of multiple prototypes, testing those prototypes on the ground in various situations, then taxi trials, then a first flight, then a few years of flight tests to reach IOC (Initial Operational Clearance) and then finally FOC (Final Operational Clearance). After all this is done, then only can the Navy place the order for the aircraft. And I have condensed this and I am sure I have missed a number of important steps between. Moral of the Story - TEDBF is going to take a minimum of 15 years and I am being optimistic. And production has to meet the numbers required. If the stakeholders hum & haw on production, then it will be even more delayed.

And in the middle of all this is another very important factor - FUNDING. See how delayed the Tejas Mk2 program is. It took the stakeholders from Nov 2009 till November 2021 (12 years) to reach the CDR stage. They spent Rs 2,500 crore to get there. Then in Aug 2022, the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) has sanctioned investment of Rs 6,500 crore for funding of prototypes. First flight is expected only in 2026/27 - which is around three to four years away. Then Air HQ has to place a order of the Mk2, which they keep repeatedly scaling back on ---> from 201 to 140 to 100+. And this will have a direct effect on the program and its successor i.e. AMCA.

Even if we assume that funding is miraculously present, there is another equally important factor - PRIORITIES. This Govt has Self Reliance as the goal. What is the guarantee that the opposition shares that same vision? In the middle of the TEDBF development path (15+ years), what will happen when the opposition comes to power and they take a different route? How long will the BJP continue to win elections?
Avid wrote:...wouldn't you think the compromise for accepting the FA-18SH serves the purpose?
In light of all this ambiguity with the TEDBF program, comes in the MRCBF (Multi Role Carrier Borne Fighter) acquisition in which the F-18SH and Rafale M are in competition. Both aircraft are great and are proven. Both aircraft can do the job that the Navy requires. The navy has evaluated both aircraft in a number of parameters and both aircraft have received a grade, based on those parameters. The rumour is that the Rafale M has scored higher than the F-18SH. That is not surprising and has nothing to do with the Rhino being an inferior platform, but more of the Vikrant being able to carry out effective carrier operations with the Rhino. Some of the issues that have come to light are;

1) The arresting gear on the Vikrant cannot handle the weight of the Rhino. The Rhino is the US Navy's premier carrier fighter. That APG-79 AESA radar is spectacular. She is a beautiful bomb truck and does her job with elan. She can also carry a plethora of weaponry. The jury is still out on how much of that weaponry, the Indian Navy will get her hands on. But that is a discussion for another day. But the issue remains that the Rhino is best suited for a CATOBAR vessel, which the Vikrant is not. The Rhino is handicapped on a STOBAR. While she can take off with a meaningful payload, how much of that payload she can bring back is debatable. See this ---> viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7308&start=2440#p2571968

2) The F-18SH is BIG and that is a negative on an aircraft carrier the size of the Vikrant. Space is a paramount issue on any aircraft carrier, but it is really acute on the Vikrant. At ~45K tons, she is less than half the size of a Nimitz Class or Gerald R Ford Class supercarrier. And despite all the marketing hype that Boeing was doing to the Indian Navy, the reality is that the Rhino is longer than the Rafale M and that will play a factor in how many fighter aircraft the Vikrant's hangar can store.

3) The delta wing of the Rafale M is actually a positive for the Vikrant. Yes, she cannot fold her wings like the Rhino, but the Rafale M can be stacked like samosas. Do a google image search of how the Charles De Gaulle stores her Rafale Ms on board and you will see what I mean. More aircraft the Vikrant can carry = more aircraft available for carrier operations.

4) The Meteor has proven to be a game changer for the IAF and realizing this, Boeing was reportedly pushing for GOTUS clearance for Raytheon to sell the D variant of the AIM-120 AMRAAM. I am not aware of any clearance being given, but Meteor is being offered to the Indian Navy. That much I can confirm. And Meteor will outrange any missile that the PLAAF or PAF has. But the most important factor is that the Rafale M will be piloted by an Indian and I say that without jingoism and hyper nationalism. Our training is second to none.

None of this will be a deal killer for the Rhino IMVHO. The Indian Navy can certainly work with the Rhino, but it will not be ideal. The Rafale M is a different story. And yes, she too has her negatives (smaller airframe life, smaller payload capacity, etc when compared to the Rhino), but none of these are deal killers for the Rafale M. See the Indian Navy's doctrine and aircraft carrier usage, and it will make perfect sense as to why the Rafale M is better suited for the Indian Navy over the F-18SH.

Rafale also has another thing going for it. But whether it will actually be implemented (or publicized) remains to be seen. See this post of mine and check out the highlighted part in RED ---> viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7266&start=4440#p2574478. The Rafale has already taken over the nuclear strike role from the Mirage 2000 in IAF service. The fact that the Indian Navy wants this capability is interesting. The Americans will never allow this on the F-18SH. Another positive for the Rafale M (and this is a BIG one) is this ---> viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7266&start=4280#p2567609
Avid wrote:...Especially if -- a) the aircraft arrives much sooner than Rafale-M to plug the acute necessity;
Arriving quicker is the main USP of the Rhino. Her main Achilles Heel is that she is American in origin. The counter argument to that is that the entire offensive wing of the Indian Naval Air Arm is American in origin. From P-8I to MH-60R to Sea Guardian UAVs, the Indian Navy is fully invested in the American ecosystem. The Rhino is a perfect complement to that.

But there is a problem and it is a view that is shared by both the GOI and the IN, albeit unofficially. And it is this ---> nothing *SCREAMS* that you are firmly in the American camp, like operating an American origin fighter. And that is a perception that neither the GOI or the IN would prefer to entertain. That view stems from a result of 200+ years of being colonized by the British and has left a very bitter taste in the mouth. It is still very much alive today, even though it has seen some measurable scale back. India's Multi Polar Alignment doctrine is nothing more than Nehru's Non Alignment doctrine i.e. Old Wine in New Bottle.

I believe 2024 will bring some interesting news for the Rafale, the Indian Air Force and the Indian Navy. BJP will have to win the 2024 elections for this (which I do believe will happen), but it will spell the end of the MRFA contest for the IAF. And the MRCBF contest plays a key role in this. See this ---> viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7634&start=2840#p2569743
Avid wrote:...and b) if it bring F-414 manufacturing to India which is central to the pipeline of aircrafts to come.
I believe F414 manufacturing is being treated as a separate, stand alone, issue by the GOI. Yes, she will power the Tejas Mk2, TEDBF and first two AMCA squadrons. But tying F414 production in India to the MRCBF and MRFA contests is not something the GOI will entertain. The US can certainly push it, but the GOI or the customer (IAF and IN) will not bite.
Avid wrote:What do you think is the probability that the current order will be expanded to include for both carriers (replace the Mig-29K)?
I don't believe there is room for anymore aircraft beyond the 26 MRCBF being acquired.

The Vikramaditya will be unable to carry the Rafale M or the F-18SH. The less said about the Vikramaditya the better.
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Re: INS Vikrant: News and Discussion

Post by konaseema »

Just to add a foot note to the above post, if IN decides to order additional airframes after 2026, Boeing may not have a production line for F/A-18 as its production is going to be stopped in the next couple of years. So if there is even a small window of opportunity for a follow on order to this 26 airframes, IN and GoI would go with Rafale-M.
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Re: INS Vikrant: News and Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

konaseema wrote:Just to add a foot note to the above post, if IN decides to order additional airframes after 2026, Boeing may not have a production line for F/A-18 as its production is going to be stopped in the next couple of years. So if there is even a small window of opportunity for a follow on order to this 26 airframes, IN and GoI would go with Rafale-M.
Excellent point. +108 to you Sir!
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Re: INS Vikrant: News and Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/delhidefence/status ... 52768?s=20 ---> Defence Minister Rajnath Singh with Chief of Defence Staff, General Anil Chauhan, Chief of Naval Staff, Admiral R Hari Kumar, Defence Secretary Giridhar Aramane and the naval brass on-board INS Vikrant, in the Arabian Sea - during Naval Commanders' Conference.

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Re: INS Vikrant: News and Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/delhidefence/status ... 31297?s=20 ---> “Future conflicts will be unpredictable. Constantly-evolving world order has forced everyone to re-strategize. Constant vigil on Northern & Western borders as well as entire coastline must be maintained. We need to be ready to deal with all future challenges,” @DefenceMinIndia

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Re: INS Vikrant: News and Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/indiannavy/status/1 ... 25441?s=20 ---> To commemorate the collaborative efforts of the Indian Navy, @cslcochin & Indian industry, the Raksha Mantri, Shri Rajnath Singh released a Coffee Table Book titled “The Making of INS Vikrant”, during the Commanders Conference 2023 onboard INS Vikrant.

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Re: INS Vikrant: News and Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

Indian Navy Holds Naval Senior Commander's Conference On INS Vikrant

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Re: INS Vikrant: News and Discussion

Post by KSingh »

fanne wrote:this was unexpected. I was hoping for Navy to say Rafale is better. By saying both are good and govt chooses Rafale, BIF with SC will cry corruption. I guess Rafale M has to wait after GE2024 election. All thanks to over smart IN brass who could not decide between two planes which is better (or were snared in taking this line so that they can contribute to the BIF agenda).
I’d watch his actual words be spoken before listening second hand from Indian media

https://youtu.be/Tg5UCflfIbY

He says the files have gone to MoD, both passed technical evaluation and trails so it’s not about costs and other non-technical considerations, they have made recommendations too.

This is generally how all trails work, now they’ll open sealed bids and declare L1/2 and go from there

From his words it seems clear to me that Rafale is the preferred option

Either way there won’t be any major move on this prior to GE2024, negotiations are likely to take 3-4 years anyway given how these things usually go and that’s optimistic. If all 26 are onboard Vikrant come 2030 I’ll be pleasantly surprised
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Re: INS Vikrant: News and Discussion

Post by KSingh »

Avid wrote:
Rakesh wrote: 1) Both aircraft have been graded as per the Navy's requirements.

2) Both aircraft have passed the minimum grade.

3) One aircraft got a higher grade than the other.

Admiral Hari Kumar is not saying anything disappointing. He is just stating the facts. Sharing resources - as the CNS stated above - between services, is the best path forward. The CNS should not usurp the announcement of the chosen MRCBF. It will open a can of worms.
Rakesh-ji, with TEDBF slated to come in 12 years time; and LCA MK2 slated to arrive sooner -- wouldn't you think the compromise for accepting the FA-18SH serves the purpose? Especially if -- a) the aircraft arrives much sooner than Rafale-M to plug the acute necessity; and b) if it bring F-414 manufacturing to India which is central to the pipeline of aircrafts to come.

What do you think is the probability that the current order will be expanded to include for both carriers (replace the Mig-29K)?
1) why would the F18 come much sooner? Dassault will adhere to their contract obligations. There’s even an apparent offer to loan some Rafale-Ms from the French navy to get pilots trained asap prior to the IN’s birds
2) so 100s of LCA MK.2, TEDBF, AMCA MK.1 won’t bring GE 414 assembly to India but 26 F-18s will? Because of the above projects GE will be doing MRO in India anyway
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Re: INS Vikrant: News and Discussion

Post by KSingh »

konaseema wrote:Just to add a foot note to the above post, if IN decides to order additional airframes after 2026, Boeing may not have a production line for F/A-18 as its production is going to be stopped in the next couple of years. So if there is even a small window of opportunity for a follow on order to this 26 airframes, IN and GoI would go with Rafale-M.
Yup. Every day no decision is made on the MRCBF it is a win for Rafale. Boeing has said SH production ends in 2025 but that means any additional orders would have to be placed in 2024 at the latest as they’ll start to close the stages of the production line sequentially until they get to final assembly by mid 2025.

Given the timelines involved and the GE in 2024 it’s inconceivable that a contract is going to be signed within the next ~18 months, how long did it take to conclude negotiations of any major system in the last 10 years? At least 4-5 years after L1 is found.

Dassault can just sit back and count down the clock, almost everything is in their favour for this contest bar none.
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Re: INS Vikrant: News and Discussion

Post by Roop »

Avid wrote:... for accepting the FA-18SH ... especially if ... the aircraft arrives much sooner than Rafale-M?
What is the basis for this assumption?
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Re: INS Vikrant: News and Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

Roop wrote:
Avid wrote:... for accepting the FA-18SH ... especially if ... the aircraft arrives much sooner than Rafale-M?
What is the basis for this assumption?
26 by ’26: India has a chance to get new naval fighters quickly, with Boeing’s Super Hornet production ending
https://stratpost.com/26-by-26-india-ha ... on-ending/
24 Feb 2023
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Re: INS Vikrant: News and Discussion

Post by Cyrano »

Should be "Boeing has one last chance to sell some oldy naval fighters before shutting down assembly line..." Phokat me de rahein hain kya? :D

Looks like a paid by Boeing article.
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Re: INS Vikrant: News and Discussion

Post by KSingh »

Rakesh wrote:
Roop wrote: What is the basis for this assumption?
26 by ’26: India has a chance to get new naval fighters quickly, with Boeing’s Super Hornet production ending
https://stratpost.com/26-by-26-india-ha ... on-ending/
24 Feb 2023
There won’t even be a contract signed before 2026 so these kind of pushes don’t work on the Indian system (for better or worse). It’s ironic that Boeing has appealed to india twice now to extend a closing production line. This time though there’s an alternative to the SH.
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Re: INS Vikrant: News and Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

@Cyrano and @KSingh: There are reporters in India who gleefully sing the American tune. After the trials of the F-18SH in India, he had published a video article about the deficiencies in the Rafale M and the superiority of the F-18SH. I pointed out the errors and there was no (obviously) response. The errors were so glaring, that it was clear that an agenda was being pushed.

Link to the video is here and you can see my responses to him as well ---> https://twitter.com/StratPost/status/15 ... 24640?s=20
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Re: INS Vikrant: News and Discussion

Post by Avid »

Rakesh wrote:@Cyrano and @KSingh: There are reporters in India who gleefully sing the American tune. After the trials of the F-18SH in India, he had published a video article about the deficiencies in the Rafale M and the superiority of the F-18SH. I pointed out the errors and there was no (obviously) response. The errors were so glaring, that it was clear that an agenda was being pushed.

Link to the video is here and you can see my responses to him as well ---> https://twitter.com/StratPost/status/15 ... 24640?s=20
Rakesh -- is this guy (Saurabh Joshi) in video from Stratpost related to Sunjoy Joshi (Chairman of ORF) who interviewed Lavrov at Raisina? The reason I ask: incredible feature similarity.
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Re: INS Vikrant: News and Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

I have no clue Saar. But there are indeed similar features.
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Re: INS Vikrant: News and Discussion

Post by JTull »

Wouldn't be surprised. Some of the 'old' press is as bad a clique as judiciary
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by MeshaVishwas »

SS Saar,
Adm Harikumar also mentioned during the VIF Vimarsh that USNS Matthew Perry(T-AKE-9) is now undergoing refit at L&T's yard.
Good job by L&T to get more customers.
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Re: INS Vikrant: News and Discussion

Post by SSridhar »

MeshaVishwas, <OT Here> the vessel seems to have arrived 2 days back. Earlier another sealift vessel of the USN underwent repairs last year to strict time schedules. There appears to be a contract with the USN to service many USN ships</OT>
Meanwhile, it also appears that modifications needed for accommodating Vikrant are complete.
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Re: INS Vikrant: News and Discussion

Post by Aditya_V »

Will modifications include wider lift doors and wider lifts, if only wishes came true.
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Re: INS Vikrant: News and Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

Aditya_V wrote:Will modifications include wider lift doors and wider lifts, if only wishes came true.
Easier said than done and will put the vessel into refit for a very long time.

Better off doing that on the follow on Vikrant Class vessel (IAC-2).
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Re: INS Vikrant: News and Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

Depending on the structure around the lift and the lifting capacities. It might be possible to widen the lift. But the entire machinery of the lift will have to be changed. If the current lifting capacity is 30 tons and we want to move 2 aircrafts per transfer. Then we need to have machinery capable of moving much more than 60 tons.

Weight of aircraft plus weight of lift.
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Re: INS Vikrant: News and Discussion

Post by Aditya_V »

And power output internal pathways, it looks like what once the MRCBF arrive in 3-4 years time, with all the relevant contracts signed, INS Vikrant will go for 6 month mid life refit
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Re: INS Vikrant: News and Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/IN_R11Vikrant/statu ... 76672?s=20 ---> Never a dull moment at sea… Team R11 in the eyes of our ace lens men.

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Re: INS Vikrant: News and Discussion

Post by Avinandan »

^^ status of Mig 29's paint is an eyesore of this otherwise awesome photo !
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Re: INS Vikrant: News and Discussion

Post by ramana »

Rakesh, Any idea how many sorties Naval LCA has flown in the trials?
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Re: INS Vikrant: News and Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

ramana wrote:Rakesh, Any idea how many sorties Naval LCA has flown in the trials?
You mean off the Vikrant or overall?

I came across this dated article from 2018. Not sure how much help it will be.

Light Combat Aircraft’s 20 sorties get Navy on board
https://bangaloremirror.indiatimes.com/ ... 521845.cms
24 Aug 2018
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Re: INS Vikrant: News and Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

Indian Navy to conduct the '‘SAM NO VARUNAH’ coastal car rally
https://pib.gov.in/PressReleasePage.aspx?PRID=1909506
22 March 2023

https://twitter.com/indiannavy/status/1 ... 85314?s=20 ---> Indian Navy and @NWWA_INDIANNAVY join hands with @MahindraRise for the #SamNoVarunah Coastal Car Rally. Stay tuned for more exhilarating action.

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Re: INS Vikrant: News and Discussion

Post by arvin »

Nice, Mig 29 had earlier raced with Ferrari in Goa. It was covered in the 2018 issue of Auto car.
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Re: INS Vikrant: News and Discussion

Post by ramana »

Rakesh wrote:
ramana wrote:Rakesh, Any idea how many sorties Naval LCA has flown in the trials?
You mean off the Vikrant or overall?

I came across this dated article from 2018. Not sure how much help it will be.

Light Combat Aircraft’s 20 sorties get Navy on board
https://bangaloremirror.indiatimes.com/ ... 521845.cms
24 Aug 2018

On the INS Vikrant.
Rakesh
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Re: INS Vikrant: News and Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

ramana wrote:On the INS Vikrant.
I have no idea Ramana-ji.

Apart from the first take-off and landing on INS Vikrant, I am unsure how many sorties have flown in total from INS Vikrant.

Anyone who has chaiwallahs involved in the program will know.
asinh
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Re: INS Vikrant: News and Discussion

Post by asinh »

Seems choice of Rafale has been refuted. Choice still a work in progress.
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