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INS Vikrant News and Discussion

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Yagnasri
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby Yagnasri » 02 Dec 2016 14:21

So the US feels that we do not know how even to use the ship. Perhaps their Lordships can give tech support to use on how to put sails on it.

arshyam
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby arshyam » 02 Dec 2016 15:02

Perhaps the US establishment is prepping the ground for a soft landing to saying no to EMALS, etc. Winds of change due to change of guard?

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby Yagnasri » 02 Dec 2016 15:22

EMALS is a major tech system which I am not sure Uncle is willing to share just like Eng tech etc.

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby Singha » 02 Dec 2016 15:34

the gearboxes are by RENK, mated to the GE LM2500. the same combo in our P17+ ships. they are assembled and serviced in India by ELECON of Pune. its a proven system worldwide.

atleast it will work, unlike the RR turbine + "all electric drive" system of the mighty Type45 that does not work in the Tropics :oops: or the mighty Zumwalts drive shafts which sprang leaks and stranded the ship on her home port journey :P
http://edition.cnn.com/2016/11/23/polit ... ama-canal/
Image

as for the mighty lean-manned tfta LCS ships, not a week goes by without some engineering incident or other :rotfl:

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby brar_w » 02 Dec 2016 15:52

New ships pushing new technology will end up like that. The USN is going to go through a 2-3 year phase (going to be very painful) with both the Ford and the Zumwalt just like it did with the Perry class and Burke when they were in this phase of their development. You can crank out proven ship designs and technologies like the DDG-51 and not run into any issues, but if you're going to take a risk with new technologies like you've done with the DDG-1000 or the Ford you will have a pretty big curve on your way to full operational capability in 2018-2019 time-frame (Zumwalt). Zumwalt is not just a 3-ship class but essentially the base for your Cruiser replacement program a decade down the road so its importance goes much beyond making the first in class ship right by the time it goes on its first operational deployment a couple of years down the road.

These are high risk - high payoff areas and you agreed to take this risk at the time of agreeing to allow the Navy to bring these new technologies into its fleet. This applies to both the technology itself, and the way it is maintained at sea. This is just not the ships but large sensor programs to like the AMDR, AEGIS sensor replacement program, and the smaller versions of the radar. AMDR-X will also be tough since you are producing at a much larger scale than the current family. The USN has nicely hedged itself against these risks by simultaneously also buying proven designs such as the new flight III Burke's, increasing Virginia class (new block) production rate with the VPM and leveraging proven lower risk systems in its aviation portfolios (P-8, F-18E/F/G, V-22 COD and E-2D's). Regardless, this aspect of their R&D and procurement portfolios will take a lot of effort to bring up, and garner lots of criticism as new technology generally tends to do.

The change of guard in the White House won't really affect the EMALS negotiations or any other being pursued under DTTI. These were going to be hard to pull off regardless and will be hard again under the new administration. I'm sure some progress will be made on some fronts while there will be setbacks in others just like any deal of this magnitude and level of capability. The broader Pentagon policy on expanding technology sharing with India will not be something the new policy team will have an issue in since it's built on mutually beneficial terms.

Regarding the WSJ report, it's not really the best place for military related matters and interpretations of reports written by and for technical folks.

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby SaiK » 19 Dec 2016 23:24


Khalsa
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby Khalsa » 20 Dec 2016 00:20

Nope didn't miss them. Already seen them countless times.
Questions... what kind of weed is that floating on the surface...
don't tell me its hyacinth. This is not fresh water I am looking at ... is it ?

hnair
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby hnair » 20 Dec 2016 15:28

Khalsa wrote:Nope didn't miss them. Already seen them countless times.
Questions... what kind of weed is that floating on the surface...
don't tell me its hyacinth. This is not fresh water I am looking at ... is it ?


Khalsa, that is indeed hyacinth. But dead/dying because of salt water.

(Google map CSL. You will see that the yard is in a large lagoon called Lake Vembanad. The lagoon extends further south into lush agricultural lands called Kuttanad. Rivers empty into it. There is a long salt-water barrage build across the lake/lagoon in 1970s, called "Thanneermukkam Bund" to prevent saline water being bought in by tides and screwing up lowlying agricultural land. So the lake becomes freshwater on one side (south) and sea-water on the other side (north, where CSL is at) of barrier. Flip side of the barrier is that Hyacinths spread rapidly due to fertilizer runoffs on the fresh-water side. This hyacinth was usually killed off by salinity from sea water, but the barrage prevents that nowadays. These weeds spill over the barrage onto north side and slowly die off due to salnity. Tides slowly carry the dying weeds out to Arabian sea, but not before passing by our Viky.... phew, that was long!)

JTull
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby JTull » 20 Dec 2016 21:23

Khalsa wrote:Nope didn't miss them. Already seen them countless times.
Questions... what kind of weed is that floating on the surface...
don't tell me its hyacinth. This is not fresh water I am looking at ... is it ?


These look like new pictures with the on-deck superstructure.

hnair
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby hnair » 20 Dec 2016 22:00

These look like from the floatout picture set from last year. The vessel had scaffolding around superstructure since a few months after floatout and nowadays have lots of antennas being setup

Khalsa
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby Khalsa » 21 Dec 2016 01:24

hnair wrote:
Khalsa wrote:Nope didn't miss them. Already seen them countless times.
Questions... what kind of weed is that floating on the surface...
don't tell me its hyacinth. This is not fresh water I am looking at ... is it ?


Khalsa, that is indeed hyacinth. But dead/dying because of salt water.

(Google map CSL. You will see that the yard is in a large lagoon called Lake Vembanad. The lagoon extends further south into lush agricultural lands called Kuttanad. Rivers empty into it. There is a long salt-water barrage build across the lake/lagoon in 1970s, called "Thanneermukkam Bund" to prevent saline water being bought in by tides and screwing up lowlying agricultural land. So the lake becomes freshwater on one side (south) and sea-water on the other side (north, where CSL is at) of barrier. Flip side of the barrier is that Hyacinths spread rapidly due to fertilizer runoffs on the fresh-water side. This hyacinth was usually killed off by salinity from sea water, but the barrage prevents that nowadays. These weeds spill over the barrage onto north side and slowly die off due to salnity. Tides slowly carry the dying weeds out to Arabian sea, but not before passing by our Viky.... phew, that was long!)


it was long perhaps but your accurate description was building an aerial view in my head as I actually saw the tides and the tussle between fresh water and salinity.

In other words thanks for taking the time to pain to explain the science and the history behind it all as well.
It was really good..... I bow to thee.

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby MohdKav » 21 Dec 2016 03:55

SaiK wrote:did we miss all these pics?
http://indianexpress.com/photos/picture ... s-vikrant/

]


Those are new pictures, thanks for sharing, She is going back into the dry dock which was taken by the Vikramaditya just 2 or 3 weeks back.

Thank you Saik. Also the deck has been cleared up and frames removed, which was clearly visibly on her till last week.

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby hnair » 21 Dec 2016 10:15

Khalsa, thanks for the kind words. Yeah, it is soothing to watch those dead weeds that wreaked havoc inland, float by with the tides. Inshallah, one day we shall watch the enemies float down Pearl River like that....

MohdKav wrote:Those are new pictures, thanks for sharing, She is going back into the dry dock which was taken by the Vikramaditya just 2 or 3 weeks back.

Thank you Saik. Also the deck has been cleared up and frames removed, which was clearly visibly on her till last week.


Nope, not new. These are all from Jun 2015 second floatout of Viky.

And where did you get the info on "going back to dry dock" ? IIRC, they need only quayside cranes for the rest of the fitout. Any links?

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby MohdKav » 21 Dec 2016 12:08

hnair wrote:Khalsa, thanks for the kind words. Yeah, it is soothing to watch those dead weeds that wreaked havoc inland, float by with the tides. Inshallah, one day we shall watch the enemies float down Pearl River like that....

MohdKav wrote:Those are new pictures, thanks for sharing, She is going back into the dry dock which was taken by the Vikramaditya just 2 or 3 weeks back.

Thank you Saik. Also the deck has been cleared up and frames removed, which was clearly visibly on her till last week.


Nope, not new. These are all from Jun 2015 second floatout of Viky.

And where did you get the info on "going back to dry dock" ? IIRC, they need only quayside cranes for the rest of the fitout. Any links?


Well I will take a look from the Bridge today. Vikramaditya was in the dry dock for while.

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby Suraj » 22 Dec 2016 00:01

Please not, do not post any information that's not open source. Defence matters are not amenable to idle speculation or loose lips.

Khalsa
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby Khalsa » 22 Dec 2016 01:42

hnair
Inshallah Indeed. Inshallah.
That mad nation cannot stand long for its foundations rot and the framework in decay.

For the Republic of India
Jai Hind

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby MohdKav » 22 Dec 2016 02:01

Suraj wrote:Please not, do not post any information that's not open source. Defence matters are not amenable to idle speculation or loose lips.


All they need to do is a satallite sweep. When you can see from a public bridge, where thousands people cross everyday, it is as open source as it gets. Also with regards to Vikramaditya, it was even covered in the media. If not, then we have to delete all the posts here on BR too.

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby Indranil » 22 Dec 2016 02:37

Whatever you have posted till now is fine.

Please go forward and pass on that bridge and take as many pictures as you like. But, please don't post them here. You are very unlikely to reveal anything new. But, why take a chance? Your pictures capture moments and angles that the spies might have missed. I hope you understand.

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby ManuJ » 22 Dec 2016 03:18

Indranil wrote:But, why take a chance? Your pictures capture moments and angles that the spies might have missed. I hope you understand.

Sorry, but that's really silly. Typical babu attitude.

Suraj
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby Suraj » 22 Dec 2016 04:03

MohdKav wrote:
Suraj wrote:Please not, do not post any information that's not open source. Defence matters are not amenable to idle speculation or loose lips.

All they need to do is a satallite sweep. When you can see from a public bridge, where thousands people cross everyday, it is as open source as it gets. Also with regards to Vikramaditya, it was even covered in the media. If not, then we have to delete all the posts here on BR too.

You mentioned drydocking future plans. To reiterate, please DO NOT post any forward looking information without public open source attribution.

Also 'they can see it from their satellite anyway' is not a mitigating reason to make anyone else's life easier.

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby hnair » 22 Dec 2016 07:48

MohdKav, only links, unless you are an accredited journalist or it is a public function (news reports that say it is a public func)

ManuJ wrote:
Indranil wrote:But, why take a chance? Your pictures capture moments and angles that the spies might have missed. I hope you understand.

Sorry, but that's really silly. Typical babu attitude.


This "Typical babu attitude" might be a fashionable put-down for the Coca-colonised of India, but has no value when it comes to securing sensitive Indian establishments.

Along with the armed forces, a whole bunch of babus kept India intact, including those in the dark-glass departments. If they say "not advisible to click", they might be overcompensating. They might not be. But we listen to that advise. Those who dont want to, will have to post elsewhere.

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby hnair » 22 Dec 2016 14:16

Any other posts/rants/whines on this topic will be deleted and warnings issued. Three separate admins said "no", due to rules in India about "photography around sensitive establishments".

So please co-operate! Back to Vikrant topics

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby Nick_S » 23 Dec 2016 14:04

Possibly the newest publicly available Vikrant pics (screenshots from IN youtube vid)

Image

Image

She still seems very very far from being operational.

JTull
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby JTull » 23 Dec 2016 14:25

Is that INS Jalashwa in the dry dock in the bottom picture?

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby Gagan » 23 Dec 2016 22:58

Yes it is.
So it looks like the drydocks in Vizag are not big enough for the Jalashwa.
A closer site might be the L&T shiplift north of Chennai (that shiplift is 200m long, Jalashwa is 174m)
Maybe they can build a big enough one on the east coast in Rambilli

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 01 Jan 2017 09:58

May the new Vibrant embody the spirit of the old Vikrant...a must see video!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJDvQ4wiaZ0

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby Cain Marko » 01 Jan 2017 11:10

I keep wondering about the AEW options on the VIkrant/VIkad....the Ka-31 although adequate falls short especially because of its endurance issues (were they able to manage IFR for it?). What other options does the IN have?

V-22 Osprey
Hawkeye? (heard that they had conducted studies that suggested use off a STOBAR setup)
DO-228NG (with its short take off ability and extra seating capacity along with high ceiling/loiter times perhaps it can be kitted out with some OKO type radar?) Problem of course might still be runway length...

Thoughts?

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby Cybaru » 01 Jan 2017 11:30

Oh you had to rake that one again didn't you? :rotfl:

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby Cain Marko » 01 Jan 2017 12:00

Well...it is a new year and thought we should start off with something suitable


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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby srai » 20 Mar 2017 17:03

Austin wrote:India’s first homemade aircraft carrier falls short of US expectations: Report

http://indianexpress.com/article/india/ ... s-4404232/
...
Indian Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar recently reiterated a commitment to indigenous manufacturing, citing concerns that foreign supply of arms and ammunition could be cut off in a time of war. “I think self-dependence is very important,” he said.

...
But the US Navy has hopes on India’s second homemade carrier which promises advance technologies.

All the more reason to order second Vikrant-class.

The so-called "advance technologies" from US would hinder India's strategic independence. Besides, those sensitive technologies (EMALS and nuclear propulsion) would be very time-consuming to acquire and would have no ToT of real stuff--just a black box. Then the Americans would have stipulations in the contract for monitoring that the black boxes haven't been tampered with. Don't be surprised if American personnel gets the rights to periodically (or even constantly) aboard INS Vishal and IN bases.

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby Philip » 20 Mar 2017 18:17

I echo Srai,simply because "two of the same' becomes very cost-effective,spares,support common to each,training of crew the same,weapon systems,sensors,etc.,etc. The second Vik could be a little larger without great redesign.Larger perhaps with more powerful versions of the same engines.The cost factor too becomes apparent.We will be able to afford it,build it, and operate it without too much of firang interference/reliance. Just like blue" and "gold" nuclear sub crews,carrier crews trained for the same design,could relieve crews after long voyages with ease,while the ship is being replenished while in port.Aircrews too would benefit from operating from the same flight decks. commonality brings with it both cost-effectiveness,ease of operations and thereby gives greater availability and combat capability, We know the longtime our carriers have spent in the docks when undergoing reg. and urgent refits.

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby Gagan » 20 Mar 2017 19:25

The advance technologies from the US are the engine on the LCA and the AMCA too, please don't forget.
They are the LM gas turbine engines on the P-17 frigates also.

The US suppliers and Government have to be bound in a properly worded contract that makes servicing them sanctions free. These guys have really held up their end of the bargain once the contracts were signed. This is quite unlike what the sarkari suppliers the Soviets and the Russians have been doing

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby Gagan » 20 Mar 2017 19:41

The QE class, is only good it it has the F-35. It is equally as limited as the INS vikrant for any twin engined jet.

The Vikrant has everything that the QE has

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby Cosmo_R » 20 Mar 2017 20:09

srai wrote:The so-called "advance technologies" from US would hinder India's strategic independence. .


I'd be interested to hear what 'strategic independence' means in today's context. Genuine question. No sarcasm.

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby NRao » 20 Mar 2017 20:22

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7293&start=1040#p2131605

"Prime Minister Modi, in particular, has been an effective advocate for the relationship, despite Washington's initial hesitation to embrace him because of his role in the 2002 communal riots in Gujarat," said the report titled 'The Future of US-India Naval Relations' which has been authored by Nilanthi Samaranayake, Michael Connell, and Satu Limaye.

Under the Modi administration, the benefits for the navy-to-navy relationship are evident, said the 50-page report.

"The establishment of the aircraft carrier technology working group is an achievement that would not have been able to materialise a decade ago," it said.

Giving another example of progress in ties, it said trilateral MALABAR exercise with Japan in the Bay of Bengal was not considered possible so early in the Modi administration, given the 2007 MALABAR controversy.

"Yet, it took place in 2015, only a year after Modi entered office," it said.

"In fact, Modi has used his authority to circumvent bureaucratic roadblocks that, while they might not have derailed the relationship, certainly could have arrested its forward progress," the report said.

However, the report rued that, "Modi has not been able to break up (the) entrenched bureaucratic obstacles as much as he set out to do."

"If the BJP were to lose the next election, for instance, or if his administration were to shift much more of its focus to dealing with domestic political issues, forward momentum in the mil-to-mil relationship could stall, with likely implications for USN-Indian Navy engagement," it said.

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby srai » 20 Mar 2017 20:44

Cosmo_R wrote:
srai wrote:The so-called "advance technologies" from US would hinder India's strategic independence. .


I'd be interested to hear what 'strategic independence' means in today's context. Genuine question. No sarcasm.


It's simple really. No two country share exactly the same interests. There maybe alliances for somethings but not everything. The country that supplies the other with weaponary dictates the terms and possesses the power to squeeze where it hurts in the hour of need. Relationship is not on equal terms.

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 20 Mar 2017 21:16

well said srai. +108 to you! :)

Gagan: That is the USP of the QE Class. That it has the F-35B. They wanted the EMALS too, but it turned out to be too expensive and thus they had to drop the F-35C. The F-35B can take off from a QE Class with a meaningful weapon load.

Secondly, one of the key differences between Vishal and the QE is ~5,000+ tonnes. The former is designed to be 65,000 tonnes while the latter displaces 70,600 tonnes. Ramping up - if needed by IN designers - to 70,000+ tonnes is not insurmountable. Drop the EMALS and adopt the F-35B. The plane is more capable than the current crop of 4th generation fighters out there - Rafale M, F/A-18E, Gripen M (only concept, no prototype, no country operates it), MiG-29K (the less said the better), Su-33, J-11, etc.

Put in a FACO line, order 100 F-35As for the IAF, order 57 (+more if needed) F-35Bs for the Naval Air Arm and everyone wins.

P.S. The F-35B can operate from the Vikrant as well.

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby Aditya G » 21 Mar 2017 02:43

2 must read pieces by Vice Admiral Pradeep Chauhan

http://www.defstrat.com/current-issues/ ... wer-part-1

Issues Details:
Vol 10 Issue 6 Jan - Feb 2017
Page No.:
30
Sub Title:
An analysis of carrier borne airpower versus shore based assets
Author:
Vice Admiral Pradeep Chauhan, AVSM **, VSM, IN (Retd)
Monday, February 6, 2017

http://www.defstrat.com/current-issues/ ... cbg-combat

Issues Details:
Vol 11 Issue 1 Mar - Apr 2017
Page No.:
40
Sub Title:
An enriching exposition of operations against a CBG post detection
Author:
Vice Admiral Pradeep Chauhan, AVSM**, VSM, IN (Retd)
Wednesday, March 15, 2017

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby Aditya G » 21 Mar 2017 03:15

^ there are several quoteworthy elements from the article. One of these:

Irrespective of the launch-platform, the threat of the anti-ship cruise missile has been greatly diminished by the anti-missile capability provided by the Barak in its standard as well as extended-range variants. Today, there is a palpable sense of confidence that every ship of the CBG (including the aircraft-carrier itself) has the proven ability to ‘take-on’ a first-launch of an incoming anti-ship sea-skimming missile by the enemy and to thereafter ‘take-out’ the launch-platform (whether surface, sub-surface or airborne) using aircraft or BrahMos or other surface-to-surface missiles. This sense of self-assurance and the resultant rise in Fleet morale is no small thing and has contributed significantly to a resurgence of bold and imaginative operational planning.


This snippet explains why the importance of Project-15 Alphas and Bravos.


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