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INS Vikrant News and Discussion

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Eric Leiderman
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby Eric Leiderman » 07 Apr 2017 09:41

The OEM for the e- mals say that multiple countries have shown interest, Including UK an Japan for her flat tops.

I am trying to find the max electrical power requirement for a single system. To figure out what Vishal might need for auxilary power. She will have two or possibly 3 systems.

Would any of the gurus have an answer to this query?

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby NRao » 07 Apr 2017 17:43

Based on multiple internet sources, the Vishal will have 2 90 meter EMALS cats.



USS Ford has 4 cats. This from the web

The challenge is scaling a relatively new technology to handle the required weights and power. EMALS motor generator weighs over 80,000 pounds, and is 13.5 feet long, almost 11 feet wide and almost 7 feet tall. It’s designed to deliver up to 60 megajoules of electricity, and 60 megawatts at its peak. In the 3 seconds it takes to launch a Navy aircraft, that amount of power could handle 12,000 homes. This motor generator is part of a suite of equipment called the Energy Storage Subsystem, which includes the motor generator, the generator control tower and the stored energy exciter power supply. The new Gerald R. Ford Class carriers will require 12 of each.

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby Viv S » 08 Apr 2017 04:03

Well.. the average cycle rate for a catapult on a USN carrier is ~60 secs. Assuming the INS Vishal is equipped with 3 catapults operating at the same efficiency delivering 60 MJ per launch (peak), the gross power requirement* would be 180 MJ/min or 3 MW. Round it out for conversion inefficiencies, lower average launch weights and the figure I'm guessing should be about... 5 MW.

(*The main power supply is being used to charge a capacitor so peak power output is not a factor.)

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby Eric Leiderman » 08 Apr 2017 10:02

Thanks N Rao

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby Philip » 08 Apr 2017 10:16

V.gloomy piece in the media today how MP tried to make radical changes in the MOD but was defeated by babudom.Babudom responsible for delays,protecting incompetent DPSUs,wanting the status quo to remain. With Jet-Ley juggling 2 ministries,that too,two giants,Babudom must be celebrating.

At this rate the Vishal,EMALS and other "mithai" dressing,will never be seen in my lifetime!

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby Eric Leiderman » 08 Apr 2017 10:56

The Vishal e-mals 3 of them with a combined gas / diesel power train ad electric drive can be easily achieved we need plant of 100k HP
However she will be an IOR queen, as she will have short legs.

SO Nuke option would depend on where navy needs to deploy her.

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby Singha » 08 Apr 2017 15:02

I believe operating in full cycle mode, even the CVNs need to take on fuel and weapons every 3 days after generating some 75-100 sorties a day.

a crafty enemy will track and drive away or kill the supply ships that keep the fleet fighting. actually they could take a leaf out of the USNs book itself . in WW2 the IJN did not pay attention to ASW and the USN sub fleet had a mostly easy time sinking 100s of supply ships moving from the home islands to as far as new guinea.

a small pack of subs even managed to penetrate past minefields and patrols into the so called inland sea between honshu and kyushu and created a lot of mayhem before escaping. Amrika has a long supply chain across the pacific to depots in hawaii, guam and australia....PLAN and PLANAF will bring considerable resources to bear on supply traffic in a long war to starve the big dogs away. :lol:

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby brar_w » 08 Apr 2017 15:07

I would imagine a crafty navy that deploys a large carrier would also invest in protect its supply ships and making targeting them as hard as possible. Unmanned aviation is set to change how carriers fight. Even USN's future doctrine calls for carriers to stay back and use long range aviation mated to sub and ship launched long range targeting and once the Navy VLS capacity is depleted and a combined effort has reduced the threat somewhat the carriers come in closer and provide volume through high SGRs like only they can. They are now revisiting (with DARPA) re-supply of VLS at sea so the role of supply ships is just getting a lot more important in the future.

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby Singha » 08 Apr 2017 15:11

well inherently supply ships are slow, fat and vulnerable no matter how much one covers them , 3 parallel orbit "hunter" sats should be able to track them down as they look different from regular containers ships and tankers. a couple of MMG is their net armament and they have one big noisy screw mated to a diesel plant.

easier than DDGs and carriers to take down for sure.

by the time USN shifts to unmanned assets and JSFs with 1.5-2x of current combat radii of Shornet, the hunters will get better tools and arrows.

two worlds collide...

Cheen has developed a UVLS similar to mk41 that will permit them large loadings of mix and match SAMs and ASMs. whatever overload game the USN is trying to play with ASM Thawk and LRSAM they will play too, forcing the DDG51 to reciprocally pack in more essm and sm2.
the 100 cell PLAN DDGs are coming and coming in numbers.

and its a matter of when not if the Y20 type transport crates are modded into ALCM/LRSAM trucks to stage from tibet and gansu and release munitions just off the coast for their long complex paths east. Cheen has the advantage of a very deep interior that US cannot reach from any side - mongolia, russia, CAR states (russi clients), india , TSP .... you will see assets come out for a strike and then disappear deep into the interior where even unmanned platforms will run out of fuel or be intercepted

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby brar_w » 08 Apr 2017 15:16

well inherently supply ships are slow, fat and vulnerable no matter how much one covers them , 3 parallel orbit "hunter" sats should be able to track them down as they look different from regular containers ships and tankers. a couple of MMG is their net armament and they have one big noisy screw mated to a diesel plant.

easier than DDGs and carriers to take down for sure.


This assumes they are just there by themselves and aren't receiving escorts and protection on the surface and below. The USN doesn't go it alone in the Pacific but with allies with whom it trains regularly. Collectively there are a heck of a lot of available assets to provide protection.

by the time USN shifts to unmanned assets and JSFs with 1.5-2x of current combat radii of Shornet, the hunters will get better tools and arrows.


And that is the game. The more you stand off the harder it is to develop a survivable kill chain to effectively threaten you. That won't change. If the Carrier moves a 1000 kms away it gets quite a bit hard to track and kill you especially if there is still a lot of capability left to bring effects to bear. One must get past mainland china type war scenarios and get into some of the more likely military scenarios in the Indo-Pacific where the USN is not going to be operating by itself but along with its allies.

Distributed operations through will make targeting harder since now multiple ships can collectively bring the level of fires that previously only a carrier (single target) could. Things to track is how the Marines adapt since nearly 80% of their investment is now pacific focused, and how the VLS charts in the navy look like. Navy is looking to get serious about its aviation after a long pause but more importantly VLS capability is diversifying significantly. They are now looking to move past the constraints of the past into Prompt strike from sea and other concepts once set aside. Given the VLS capacity that already exists in terms of the cells alone if you begin to add prompt fires you are going to complicate things a heck of a lot especially since the USN isn't interested in any offensive solution below 1000 km in range.

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby Singha » 08 Apr 2017 15:36

brave words sire but I am putting my 3p on Cheen long term in SCS for 4 reasons
(a) its a existential fight for them - they cannot afford to incite a fight and lose. all sorts of aftereffects internally. US++ can pull back being democratic systems without a coup
(b) willingness to take greater losses and do whatever it takes
(c) deep hinterland for staging, not isolated well targeted islands.
(d) US allies may not be willing to sustain damage beyond a point - its their backsides on the line not the USN which can safely pull back out of range, but these island chains & economies are moored where they are with ever increasing dependency on the big dragon

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby brar_w » 08 Apr 2017 15:37

There is no doubt that China's position in the SCS will be very strong but that was never in contention. It was all about how the collective security of the other players (US, Japan, Korea, Australia among the big players) in the Indo-Pacific grows to meet their set of collective security challenges in the region.

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby chola » 08 Apr 2017 16:43

Cheen is selling OPVs to Malaysia who has claims against them, it is exporting rifles to the Philippines who has claims against them. Not really the action of someone expecting a fight.

I think the PRC understands they are a shitty third rate military power and a pre-eminent industrial/trading one. They've shown it historically by selling everything to everyone and by astutely keeping their military away from serious conflict in the past four decades. It had shown a mature understanding that any real war would mean complete destruction of its armed forces by the US and its allies.

So what does this mean for the future? Unkil will pivot more and more to the region so that it can implement the Sea-Land Battle Plan (annihilation of all chini resources in the sea and littorals.) It might even hope that this pressure will create a chini misstep that will result in military confrontation and a foregone conclusion.

But the PRC as an industrial power will avoid war and instead attempt to change the facts on the ground by pumping the near seas so full of CVs, DDGs and FFGs and coast guard cutters and man-made islands that control becomes fait accompli.

War, US and its democratic allies win. Lasting peace, the PRC wins. Imagine forcing democracies to make the choice for war in order to protect freedom. But this is the paradigm of cheen perhaps the shittiest military major power in modern history but perhaps its greatest industrial one.

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby NRao » 08 Apr 2017 19:43

I do not think China can stand a fight. Just too much fire power against her at the moment and that balance will continue.

She can, and will, make a lot of noise.

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby Singha » 08 Apr 2017 20:05

incase anyone missed the memo, china has more or less won the SCS fight without a shot being fired.

china has captured and built bases on disputed reefs and NONE of the other competitors has been able to collar a single rock in the same way.

china is even dumping sand and rock on shoals to enlarge and build new "islands" and "offshore territories" where none existed.

nobody is in a position to do anything about it but make rude noises

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby Lisa » 08 Apr 2017 20:13

^ I fully agree with what you say but firmly believe that they are just one tsunami away from complete destruction bearing in mind the local plate instabilities and their islands very, very low freeboard and severe lack of depth relative to shoreline. Time and plate tectonics will confirm my conviction.

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby Singha » 08 Apr 2017 20:29

these islands are mostly coral reefs, not volcanic islands which are the main islands like philipines, japan, indonesia atop the tectonic plates....but as you say vulnerable to typhoons and tsunamis as avg depth of SCS is claimed as 75m and reefs will slope up from ocean bottom...tsunami will slow down and rise in height

but in $$ terms its cheap to start over again . yes a few lives would be lost but more warm bodies can be found to hold up the dragon flag

it is clearing a way from SSBN base in hainan to the deep open sea
Image

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby NRao » 08 Apr 2017 20:42

Well, .....

The other half of the memo - that is not tracked on BR for sure - is that the presence of USN has increased dramatically, in and around the SCS. As Adm Harris said - just a few months ago - the heart of the 7th Fleet is constantly in that area.

So, I am not sure what the unit of measure is, to determine who is actually winning. But if it were pure fire power, the US wins.

At this point, actually, I am more interested in the NK narrative. The Chinese building of islands, etc is a political nuisance not a military thread.

BTW, there is a very interesting Q/A by Adm Harris that sheds a lot of light on the SCS (direct as he is). Essentially he says - we have told our boys what is our goal and we sleep very well.


BTW, a very nic pic, thanks. But, it would be a better picture if we could show the 7th Fleet elements in there too.

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby Cain Marko » 08 Apr 2017 20:47

Singha wrote:brave words sire but I am putting my 3p on Cheen long term in SCS for 4 reasons
(a) its a existential fight for them - they cannot afford to incite a fight and lose. all sorts of aftereffects internally. US++ can pull back being democratic systems without a coup
(b) willingness to take greater losses and do whatever it takes
(c) deep hinterland for staging, not isolated well targeted islands.
(d) US allies may not be willing to sustain damage beyond a point - its their backsides on the line not the USN which can safely pull back out of range, but these island chains & economies are moored where they are with ever increasing dependency on the big dragon


Right and in this hot mess, folks are dreaming of a lone wolf Indian CV with emals....

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby Karthik S » 08 Apr 2017 20:51

Build those SSNs already!!

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby Cain Marko » 08 Apr 2017 20:57

I think Chakra based ssgns are more likely. Multi role. But they need more power and speed for true hunter killer ops. Would love to see a uvls that allows for shourya, multiple bmos, and later, nirbhay

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby Karthik S » 08 Apr 2017 21:04

Our primary purpose is hunter killer. Having a mix of 12 BrahMos (600km) and ~ 30 HWT. Having a few nirbhays IMO will not be of much use.

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby Cain Marko » 08 Apr 2017 21:08

Can bmos be tube launched? Real problem is speed for Arihant based design. Would like to see more akulas leased.

Wonder what happened to the IN plan of second line of ssks, the one that required ocean going capabilities...

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby NRao » 08 Apr 2017 21:10

Cain Marko wrote:
Singha wrote:brave words sire but I am putting my 3p on Cheen long term in SCS for 4 reasons
(a) its a existential fight for them - they cannot afford to incite a fight and lose. all sorts of aftereffects internally. US++ can pull back being democratic systems without a coup
(b) willingness to take greater losses and do whatever it takes
(c) deep hinterland for staging, not isolated well targeted islands.
(d) US allies may not be willing to sustain damage beyond a point - its their backsides on the line not the USN which can safely pull back out of range, but these island chains & economies are moored where they are with ever increasing dependency on the big dragon


Right and in this hot mess, folks are dreaming of a lone wolf Indian CV with emals....


And, that is partly the problem.

Who claimed the IN would go it alone?

Is the IN, even today, alone? And, if not, how much handshake does she have?

BR is moving away from gathering info and has moved to ideology.

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby Karthik S » 08 Apr 2017 21:30

Cain Marko wrote:Can bmos be tube launched? Real problem is speed for Arihant based design. Would like to see more akulas leased.

Wonder what happened to the IN plan of second line of ssks, the one that required ocean going capabilities...


I am talking about the weapon mix not the launch mechanism. Saw news in 2015 that SSN design work has started. Really pray we don't go A B C Ds now with 1 2 boats per series. Need to design one and make 6-9 examples of the same.

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby Cain Marko » 08 Apr 2017 21:40

And, that is partly the problem.

Who claimed the IN would go it alone?


In the final analysis, any nation deserving the title, power, has to have the ability to go it alone. High value assets should be built with that intention. If the intent is to build an asset for support as part of a team, it is better that the other team mate contribute to the cost of its construction and operation. That's the way partnerships work, whether Israel or tsp. I'm yet to see any US hardware coming in at friendship, subsidized prices. If it does, then by all means build a 100k ton emals CVN bristling with JSFs that have come at friendship prices.

Until then, use your meagre cloth to cut suits that are more modest but cover your body very comfortably.....stobar CV - more vikrant class, ssns, ssgbns, and perhaps a fast bomber sqd all backed with large and robust network of sensor platforms like mpas and sats and dal roti surface assets which are adequately equipped. Now this kind of outfit protects your behind and every now and again provides enough bulk to allow you to punch above your weight.

In the end saar, in geo politics, it all comes down to you being very alone...
Last edited by Cain Marko on 08 Apr 2017 22:09, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby Vivek K » 08 Apr 2017 21:43

What stops IN from building Vik-2 and 3 with incremental expansion of the designs to higher tonnages? If India wants to be a power that countries in the region like Malaysia, Singapore etc respect and look up to then it has to have the capability to not only make its own weapons but also to supply these to them. So all the leased Akulas only reinforce the case of a "client state". For true power projection, The Vik series, the Arihant series must be continued and built in solid numbers to gain experience and build a sub building complex.

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby Cain Marko » 08 Apr 2017 22:03

^ in the short term, when Arihant types are still being slowly developed and ssns are nowhere close, akulas provides the necessary teeth. Brings into play an asset, which stands alone in its ability to take the game into the enemy's backyard. But of course, in time these should be replaced by Indias own type.

Agree on more vikrant class, at least one more.
Last edited by Cain Marko on 08 Apr 2017 22:17, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby Cain Marko » 08 Apr 2017 22:16

Karthik S wrote:
Cain Marko wrote:Can bmos be tube launched? Real problem is speed for Arihant based design. Would like to see more akulas leased.

Wonder what happened to the IN plan of second line of ssks, the one that required ocean going capabilities...


I am talking about the weapon mix not the launch mechanism. Saw news in 2015 that SSN design work has started. Really pray we don't go A B C Ds now with 1 2 boats per series. Need to design one and make 6-9 examples of the same.


Point is, if bmos is a necessity, and it is incapable of Tube launch and needs a vls anyways, then might as well make the platform capable of other cms.

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby Vivek K » 08 Apr 2017 22:16

Instead of wasting billions in importing gap fillers that may have limits on use against some foes, the Arihant's should be expedited. Akulas demonstrate a capability to purchase only. That doesn't generate any respect and I bet they go back to Roos for an oil change or "tyres pressure check".

If India wants to play in the big leagues, she needs to bring her own toys. Borrowed toys show a lack of ability.

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby NRao » 08 Apr 2017 22:21

Cain Marko wrote:
And, that is partly the problem.

Who claimed the IN would go it alone?


In the final analysis, any nation deserving the title, power, has to have the ability to go it alone. High value assets should be built with that intention. If the intent is to build an asset for support as part of a team, it is better that the other team mate contribute to the cost of its construction and operation. That's the way partnerships work, whether Israel or tsp. I'm yet to see any US hardware coming in at friendship, subsidized prices. If it does, then by all means build a 100k ton emals CVN bristling with JSFs that have come at friendship prices.

Until then, use your meagre cloth to cut suits that are more modest but cover your body very comfortably.....stobar CV - more vikrant class, ssns, ssgbns, and perhaps a fast bomber sqd all backed with large and robust network of sensor platforms like mpas and sats and dal roti surface assets which are adequately equipped. Now this kind of outfit protects your behind and every now and again provides enough bulk to allow you to punch above your weight.

In the end saar, in geo politics, it all comes down to you being very alone...


CM ji,

I the final analysis, is the USN - itself - even thinking of going it alone? Answer that first.

This is not about pawa or any other misspelt word. It is rather simple. How does one cage the tiger without getting into a fist fight with it. Can someone do it alone? Perhaps. Does *anyone* want to go it alone. None do. And that is the way it has been structured.

There are absolutely no indications that the INEVER thought of going it alone, unless the PRC forced the issue, which they will not.

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby Cain Marko » 08 Apr 2017 22:46

Vivek K wrote:Instead of wasting billions in importing gap fillers that may have limits on use against some foes, the Arihant's should be expedited. Akulas demonstrate a capability to purchase only. That doesn't generate any respect and I bet they go back to Roos for an oil change or "tyres pressure check".

If India wants to play in the big leagues, she needs to bring her own toys. Borrowed toys show a lack of ability.

U can't show ability, if you have none. It will be another 10 or more years at least before ssns roll out of vizag. This is not merely a matter of showing ability, there is a desperate need to pusht back against cheen, and only leased akulas are an option in the near term. Akulas are proven ability.... Not for show.

India will truly play in the big leagues 10 15 years from now, and ssns will be MII then, until then however, a little short term cover becomes necessary for survival in emergencies.

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby Cain Marko » 08 Apr 2017 22:57

NRao wrote:CM ji,

I the final analysis, is the USN - itself - even thinking of going it alone? Answer that first.

This is not about pawa or any other misspelt word. It is rather simple. How does one cage the tiger without getting into a fist fight with it. Can someone do it alone? Perhaps. Does *anyone* want to go it alone. None do. And that is the way it has been structured.

There are absolutely no indications that the INEVER thought of going it alone, unless the PRC forced the issue, which they will not.


The USN pretty much went it alone for the longest time. Soko, Japan and the rest hardly had any teeth and were brought into orbit of the US due to circumstances and predominance of US power... Now they serve as useful tools to the big man, r running his errands and hiding behind his bulk. Without him they are dead in the water against the dragon.

If you notice, India is not in the same boat, nor should it be. And if the big man is in need of a true partner to cage the tiger, and not another side kick, then he should divvy up the riches a bit and not expect sdres to simply join up and see the world.

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby NRao » 08 Apr 2017 23:27

Cain Marko wrote:
NRao wrote:CM ji,

I the final analysis, is the USN - itself - even thinking of going it alone? Answer that first.

This is not about pawa or any other misspelt word. It is rather simple. How does one cage the tiger without getting into a fist fight with it. Can someone do it alone? Perhaps. Does *anyone* want to go it alone. None do. And that is the way it has been structured.

There are absolutely no indications that the INEVER thought of going it alone, unless the PRC forced the issue, which they will not.


The USN pretty much went it alone for the longest time. Soko, Japan and the rest hardly had any teeth and were brought into orbit of the US due to circumstances and predominance of US power... Now they serve as useful tools to the big man, r running his errands and hiding behind his bulk. Without him they are dead in the water against the dragon.

If you notice, India is not in the same boat, nor should it be. And if the big man is in need of a true partner to cage the tiger, and not another side kick, then he should divvy up the riches a bit and not expect sdres to simply join up and see the world.


Thanks.

And, that is pretty much what is not happening. The US/USN has had to scale back - for a variety of reasons (check out the hal of the FA-18s, etc). The pivot is part of this scaling back (and concentration).

And, India specifically, is hardly following. As far as we know - open source - India asked for and got a huge request fulfilled - the engine for the AMCA. The US offered the EMALS and IN seems to have accepted it (based on open sources). There has been talk of other aspects, *the biggest* IMHO would be the techs/processes to build large ships (it is not even F-18 or EMALS or Hawkeye, yes, it will be how to build a very large ship efficiently).

But who cares? These things are not even the conversation, leave alone serious discussions. Old topics keep being regurgitated: BMos - Russia has given the tech to China - why would we even consider it to be a good tool to talk about WRT China I have no idea. They have it too. But, BMos is central to our topics.

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby chola » 09 Apr 2017 00:11

Please, the US going it alone is far less difficult than people make it out to be.

The US has 11 super carriers to none for the rest of the world. Are you kidding me? The balance of power in the form of surface and submarine assets are just as outrageous.

And THEN add to the fact that most of the other great naval powers are US allies outside the PRC and Russia.

That said, again, if the PRC doesn't fight but simply builds it will dominate its near seas by force of numbers alone because unlike the US it is at home and persistent.

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby KrishnaK » 09 Apr 2017 01:23

Cain Marko wrote:The USN pretty much went it alone for the longest time. Soko, Japan and the rest hardly had any teeth and were brought into orbit of the US due to circumstances and predominance of US power... Now they serve as useful tools to the big man, r running his errands and hiding behind his bulk. Without him they are dead in the water against the dragon.
The US never went it alone. It has been an excellent alliance builder. Japan is a major technological and military power. It can go nuclear and turn the tables on the too clever by half China very rapidly. S. Korea is no minnow either. The US has built up and nourished their ability with access to their vast markets thereby linking their prosperity to US predominance.

If you notice, India is not in the same boat, nor should it be. And if the big man is in need of a true partner to cage the tiger, and not another side kick, then he should divvy up the riches a bit and not expect sdres to simply join up and see the world.
As usual the pointless emotional response with sprinklings of strategic independence, sdres, side kicks, ....

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby Vivek K » 09 Apr 2017 04:46

Cain Marko wrote:U can't show ability, if you have none. It will be another 10 or more years at least before ssns roll out of vizag.

So the Arihant is a fig leaf of imagination? The videos of underwater launch of SLBMs are photoshopped?

Key is to invest the time and money in your own systems that will not need clearance/spares from someone in time of war.

This is not merely a matter of showing ability, there is a desperate need to pusht back against cheen, and only leased akulas are an option in the near term. Akulas are proven ability.... Not for show.


How many Akulas can be had? And what armament would they come equipped with?

India will truly play in the big leagues 10 15 years from now, and ssns will be MII then, until then however, a little short term cover becomes necessary for survival in emergencies.

The time to rise is now. 15 years later be prepared to speak mandarin.

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby Cain Marko » 09 Apr 2017 04:50

KrishnaK wrote:The US never went it alone. It has been an excellent alliance builder. Japan is a major technological and military power. It can go nuclear and turn the tables on the too clever by half China very rapidly. S. Korea is no minnow either. The US has built up and nourished their ability with access to their vast markets thereby linking their prosperity to US predominance.


Japan CAN go nuclear - when? after they have been nuked a few times by Noko or Cheen? Weaponizing nuclear assets doesn't happen in a few days. At the present rate, they aren't going to get nukes anytime soon - the Chinese are fairly bursting with every type of offensive weapon there is and that too, in mass quantities. From nukes to BMs (of all varieties and ranges) to CMs, long ranged bombers, 100s of 4th gen fighters (JASDF has about 200) and newer DDGs and subs that are being churned out at truly phenomenal pace. And with all this happening right in their face, what has been Japan's response so far?
Forget nukes, what major military prowess does Japan have other than mostly defensive assets? Neither does Soko....what response do either of these nations have to Cheeni BMs or CMs, or even bombers escorted by flankers and J20s? Nor do they have anything that can take the attack to the Chinese mainland - they are utterly defensive in nature and the US is their only hope of keeping the dragon chained. They are dependent in every way on the big man to take the war to China, exit the USN and they are quite nude.

Point is, if the provierbial s**t really hits the fan, both China and esp. the US have great strategic depth, they will survive and limp along. Otoh, Japan and Soko will probably be quite literally consumed by the dragon's fire. Obviously none of them want war and the idea is to simply continue to contain an ever growing Chinese menace. but if push comes to shove, it'll be these two sidekicks that will get shoved, no mistaking that. Unfortunately, the rapidly rising Chinese prowess is hardly easy to contain any more - not even the mighty USN can do it now, not with its two technologically powerful allies to help even, hence the pivot to India.

Much will depend on how India responds - And here folks are talking of building a lonesome massive carrier to poke around in already troubled seas, and that too by passing the correspondingly massive bill to the Indian taxpayer.

As usual the pointless emotional response with sprinklings of strategic independence, sdres, side kicks, ....

As usual - have no specific points or answers, so the default vapid response replete with with the expected barbs.
Last edited by Cain Marko on 09 Apr 2017 05:01, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby Cain Marko » 09 Apr 2017 04:57

Vivek K wrote:So the Arihant is a fig leaf of imagination? The videos of underwater launch of SLBMs are photoshopped?

The Arihant is not an SSN - this will be needed if India is to fish in the SCS and show up every now and again uncalled for at China's door.

Key is to invest the time and money in your own systems that will not need clearance/spares from someone in time of war.

No doubt, and that is being done, but such capabilities don't come up in the twinkling of an eye - no matter how much money you throw at them, time is needed. Time which India does not have if it is to take war further away from its shore.

How many Akulas can be had? And what armament would they come equipped with?

At least one more and there was even talk of a Yasen. Even equipped with Klubs (which by the way has a very decent range post MTCR), they present a problem to an expanding enemy fleet, which is faced with a sudden possibility of action very close to its own doors.

The time to rise is now. 15 years later be prepared to speak mandarin.

Precisely why leased Akulas are a great idea. Nobody would be happier if India suddenly starts producing SSNs in numbers but alas, words are easy and move quickly in the air or over the net....on the ground or in the waters, things take time.

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Postby Singha » 09 Apr 2017 05:01

There is chance of a yasen with cold war 2.0 on...even the 2nd akula is doubtful


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