INS Vikrant: News and Discussion

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by nits »

Gurus - when the mother ship goes on sea trial without any Aircraft on board; does Navy request IAF or its Navy's other Air assets for cover and protection - not that anyone will attack it but we have heard instances before where enemy planes have fly near or above ships to have a dekho - something like this https://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/asiapcf/ ... index.html
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

In peacetime, there is no need to sink the vessel. However what is worth its weight in gold is the vessel’s acoustic signature. Each vessel has a unique signature that is captured and saved into a digital library for future use. For that a submarine is usually sent out clandestinely to capture said signature. This was done to great effect in the Cold War by the US Navy and they still do that today. They do it to all Chinese Navy vessels and to most other navies as well. India is also on that list. The seas in South East Asia and South Asia are littered with nuclear powered boats from the navies of the US and UK. Remember the recent incident of the USS Connecticut, a state-of-the-art Seawolf Class submarine, that hit a seamount in the South China Sea?

Now with the AUKUS pact, Australia will do the same. China is wetting her pants at the very thought of this. But they will maintain a stoic face to the global community. The Khan (and her allies) have the all seeing eye of Sauron. They listen and capture everything. The most advanced sub fleet in the world lies with the US Navy and the Royal Navy is an extension of that. No other navies come anywhere close. A few hundred years from now (or perhaps a bit sooner), de-classified stories will come out of submariner's escapades from these two navies. Alas we will not be around to read them! A tape of the Vikrant’s acoustic signature has already been made :) The Vikrant is out on her third set of sea trials and for that you need to get out into open ocean. And out in the open seas (away from Cochin Shipyard), she is fair game.

When INS Delhi was sailing through international waters (after her commissioning in 1997) she was buzzed by a Royal Australian Air Force AP-3C Orion (I believe that was the aircraft, will have to double check). The aircraft then dropped sonobouys (or something of that nature) to record the Delhi’s acoustic signature. I believe the then Indian Govt lodged a formal protest, but that is the maximum that could be done. Espionage is the name of the game. All professional navies in the world do this. Keep Calm and Carry On!
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by chaitanya »

This might be a dumb idea, but is there a "Luneburg lens" equivalent for naval ships? Wouldn't it be useful if in peacetime the acoustic signature could be changed or altered significantly enough to avoid a positive ID in wartime?
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

chaitanya saab, no idea is a dumb idea.

I don't believe there is anything of that nature, but someone more knowledgeable than me might know. How much can be done is to minimize the acoustic signature on a 45K ton aircraft carrier like the Vikrant is debatable. She has large propellers to move her with efficiency and with (relative) speed when required. But that will generate significant noise. Propeller design - to reduce noise - is an ongoing study.

The most effective solution to protect your carrier, is to sanitize the area (or create a bubble) around the vessel. That is where the fighters and ASW helos on board + the CBG (consisting of surface and sub-surface vessels) comes in. An effective bubble will make it very challenging for an enemy to target the carrier.
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by chaitanya »

Rakeshji, thanks for your response. From many years of reading the posts here I realize acoustic minimization is the primary objective, but I thought what about masking it altogether (like in stealth ac). After I typed my question I realized a few things:

1) A Luneburg lens type passive solution won't work for a large ship which is potentially dumping MW of power into the water to propel itself. Neither would an active solution, like putting a speaker into the water. As you said, propeller noise etc. would drown out any signal.
2) So then I thought: what if we alter the shape of the bow with detachable composite structures? This would alter the shape of the vessel in the front and change its hydrodynamic profile, and presumably its acoustic signature as well. In wartime, these structures could be removed/dropped and the ship would change its acoustic and hydrodynamic profile (presumably for the better!)
3) Another way could be to alter the propulsion mechanism itself. Don't know how feasible the mechanics would be, but if you have two propellers per shaft, maybe switching them from co-rotating to contra-rotating could do the trick

Both solutions would incur an efficiency penalty, so don't know if its worth it. But then, you might be able to sail around with no worries about people logging your actual signature. Point 3 could also work for subs if the mechanism is sorted
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by ramana »

Maybe the Vikrant can tow a noise maker to add to the signals?
But DSP based FFT analyzers can tell what sound aligns to which component.
There was French Netflix movie that showed some version of ship identifying process.
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by rajsunder »

ramana wrote:Maybe the Vikrant can tow a noise maker to add to the signals?
But DSP based FFT analyzers can tell what sound aligns to which component.
There was French Netflix movie that showed some version of ship identifying process.
also why not change the shape of the propeller by adding some extra weights to the propeller to make the sound different and remove them when gong for war
or may be have a small propeller that makes too much noise run along with the main propeller the smaller one can be shut off during the war time.
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Barath »

https://twitter.com/RAFIndia_/status/14 ... 42656?s=20

Rafale M at INS Hansa
Another Example
Pics of Rafale M (with distinctive catapult bar) undergoing STOBAR Tests at ID Hansa

Reportedly, Day 1 demonstration/trials witnessed the following events:

1. Clean Takeoff (empty store/ payload)
2. Arrested Recovery/Trap (empty store/payload)
3. Take-off with differential fuel loads. (empty store/payload)
4. Take-off with pre-defined store config.
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by jaysimha »

https://frontierindia.com/india-could-l ... t-airwing/
India could lease Rafale M from France to jumpstart INS Vikrant airwing
Posted by Joseph P Chacko
In February 2021, Russia denied that the non-delivery of the MiG-29K carrier-based aircraft caused the delay in transferring the latest aircraft carrier Vikrant to the Indian Navy. Moscow said it had not received an application from New Delhi to supply aircraft. TASS reported this with reference to a source in the aircraft industry. According to the news agency, Russia previously provided India with all the necessary information on a possible contract to supply a batch of MiG-29K carrier-based fighters for the newest Indian aircraft carrier Vikrant but has not yet received a response. In addition, India has not even issued a tender appeal for the supply of carrier-based fighters.
{ dint see this before -- MBD-if-RP}
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

Rakesh wrote: https://twitter.com/livefist/status/148 ... 55714?s=20 ---> BREAKING: Rafale-M conducts first ski jump launch demonstration at Indian Navy’s shore facility in Goa at 1200 hours today.
https://twitter.com/RAFIndia_/status/14 ... 04579?s=20 ---> Day 1 demonstration/trials witnessed the following events:

1. Clean Takeoff (empty store/payload)
2. Arrested Recovery/Trap (empty store/payload)
3. Take-off with differential fuel loads (empty store/payload)
4. Take-off with pre-defined store configurations

Via @hukum2082
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

US F-18 fighter op-demo in Goa for INS Vikrant in April-May
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... 07693.html
12 Jan 2022

The other important factor that weighs in favour of the F-18 is that it can fit the INS Vikramaditya or INS Vikrant lift with folded wings without compromising on its operational readiness.

US defence major Boeing is planning an operational demonstration of F-18 Super Hornet carrier-based fighter at the shore-based test facility (SBTF) at INS Hansa in Goa in April-May this year as a possible contender for Indian Navy’s sole aircraft carrier INS Vikramaditya and soon to be commissioned INS Vikrant. Both the Indian aircraft carriers use ski-jump to launch the fighters with arrested recovery through the net.

According to officials in knowledge of the matter in Washington and in New Delhi, the US Navy conducted ski-jump trials of F-18 fighter at Naval Air Station Patuxent River in Maryland in US or Pax river in December 2020 but the Indian Navy team could not attend the demonstration due to travel restrictions on account of the coronavirus pandemic. However, the US Navy shared extensive data of the ski jump trials with the Indian Navy. A year later in December 2021, both the US Navy and the aircraft manufacturer did a site inspection of SBTF at INS Hansa in the presence of Indian Navy officials.

While presently the operational demonstration of Rafale-Marine is on at the INS Hansa as the other option for Indian aircraft carriers, both the twin engine aircraft are virtually of the same later 1990s vintage and of the same 4.5 generation. Even as the Indian Navy will be evaluating both the aircraft, the F-18 is a two seater fighter, which is more suitable to carrier based operations for better orientation at sea. Rafale-M is a single seater fighter, while it has a two seater trainer but that can only be operated from the shore. The other important factor that weighs in favour of the F-18 is that it can fit the INS Vikramaditya or INS Vikrant lift with folded wings without compromising on its operational readiness.

In case of Rafale-M the fighter will only fit to carrier lift after the wing tips of the aircraft are removed as the wings cannot be folded and the span is more than that of a folded F-18 fighter. Aviation experts says that an adapter platform will have to be fitted for F-18 Super Hornet as it allows faster movement of jets from lower deck to deck under combat and high seas condition. Although both France and US are close allies of India, the Modi government will also take into account the license, maintenance and spare parts issues as it cannot afford to be caught on the wrong foot in a rapidly changing security environment. Under no circumstances, the Modi government will allow India's strategic autonomy and operational readiness to be compromised.
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Bala Vignesh »

rajsunder wrote: or may be have a small propeller that makes too much noise run along with the main propeller the smaller one can be shut off during the war time.
Thats literally dead weight and more importantly an unnecessary drag on the vikrant that can screw up its range or capabilities.

I am sure IN would have thought about some way to camouflage the sonar signature of their future flagship.
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by ramana »

Rakesh Could you please post Shisihr Gupta's article full text. There are nuances which readers need to grasp.
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by ramana »

So Barath, The IN carrier aircraft problem is the width of the ship/carrier lifts.
INS Vikramaditya has two lifts 9.9m and 8.8m width
INS Vikrant has 10m width
The F-18 can be canted and positioned Boeing says
Rafale M wing tips need to be folded but it is not there.
And has wet wings.
Mig-29Ks have folded wings and so do TEDBF.
With folded wings, the Super Hornet is 9.32 m wide, while the width of the deck lift is 9.7 m.
And the Rafale, which does not have a folding mechanism, is even wider at 10.9 m.
RafaleM unfolded wingspan is 10.8 M.
Can the lift width be widened by 0.5m on each side during refit?
This way common engine overhaul etc.
Otherwise, buy more upgraded Mig-29Ks till TEDBF is developed.
I think F-18 is a wedge to make IN into a USA munna.
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by ramana »

What size lifts are there in French, UK and US carriers?
Thanks for the info.
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by ramana »

Ok USN;
The elevator, which is used to move aircraft from the hangar bay to the flight deck quickly and safely, is located on the starboard side of the ship. It measures 85 feet long and 52 feet wide and weighs 120 tons, akin to a steam locomotive.
US manual on aircraft elevators or lifts

https://man.fas.org/dod-101/sys/ship/nstm/588v0r1.pdf
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by sankum »

The INS Vikrant lift is 11.2 m width according to defence decode.
The Rafale wing tip removed is basically pylons removed and width can be expected to be 10.5m.
In operation it will be a time consuming to remove outbound missiles and pylons on deck and place it back.
The hanger width is estimated to be 21m . Two fighters in parallel if Rafale will not move. It's advantage F18 unless other reasons favors Rafale
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Barath »

ramana wrote:So Barath, The IN carrier aircraft problem
The post on 1st Jan in this thread has the details

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7308&start=1880#p2528914
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

ramana wrote:Rakesh Could you please post Shisihr Gupta's article full text. There are nuances which readers need to grasp.
Done Ramana-ji ---> viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6308&p=2530520#p2530520
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by ramana »

sankum wrote:The INS Vikrant lift is 11.2 m width according to defence decode.
The Rafale wing tip removed is basically pylons removed and width can be expected to be 10.5m.
In operation, it will be time-consuming to remove outbound missiles and pylons on deck and place it back.
The hanger width is estimated to be 21m. Two fighters in parallel if Rafale will not move. It's advantage F18 unless other reasons favor Rafale
So Rafale M willl fit Vikrant.
And as for wet wings, etc can ensure the wing tank gets empty first.

And can wait for TEDBF to be complete in meantime.
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Prem Kumar »

What aircraft was planned to equip INS Vikrant? Its close to commissioning and I can't imagine that the Naval planners haven't finalized the aircraft for the aircraft carrier!

Even if we decide on the F-18 or Rafale-M or even the Mig-29K for that matter tomorrow, how long will it be before orders are placed & deliveries start?
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

Prem Kumar wrote:What aircraft was planned to equip INS Vikrant? Its close to commissioning and I can't imagine that the Naval planners haven't finalized the aircraft for the aircraft carrier!

Even if we decide on the F-18 or Rafale-M or even the Mig-29K for that matter tomorrow, how long will it be before orders are placed & deliveries start?
There is no easy answer to your question Prem. When the Vikrant was planned, she was supposed to be a 28,000 ton Air Defence Ship (ADS). That was in the late 1990s. As the 21st century rolled along and India's economy boomed and the arrival of the Vikramaditya (deal signed in 2004), the ADS also evolved. The design was finally frozen at ~45,000 tons and keel was laid in 2009. Significant Russian help was provided and the Vikrant is ideal to operate the N-Tejas or the MiG-29K. The lifts were designed primarily around those two aircraft.

The MiG-29K however was not a suitable aircraft for carrier operations and the Indian Navy is paying a heavy price for that. But there was no other choice back then. The N-Tejas is underpowered and thus the TEDBF was born. She too will fit on the lifts - with ease - on the Vikrant. However, in the absence of a viable naval fighter...the navy has commenced a contest for a new carrier borne fighter. She started off with much fanfare from 57 airframes, which went down to 36, then 35 and now has dwindled down to 26. That number, IMVHO, will go even further down.

The two contestants in the fray are proving their worth to the Indian Navy via these tests. Rafale is doing it now and the F-18 will do it in March. It not that the Navy planners did not plan, but rather the economy, geopolitical events, our own aircraft (N-Tejas), our present aircraft (MiG-29K) are just not fitting perfectly in the square hole. With TEDBF, we will get there. But the Navy needs a Vikrant airwing till the TEDBF arrives. If the lease news piece is true, the Navy may likely lease around 18+ aircraft versus buying them. For around 10 - 15 years, till the TEDBF gets ready.

Read this article below. Will give you a good insight into IAC-1's development. Kudos to the Indian Naval Design Bureau and Cochin SY for an excellent vessel.

Expert Explains: Indian Navy’s long & illustrious road to an Indigenous Aircraft Carrier
https://indianexpress.com/article/expla ... r-7722992/
By Commander Ankush Banerjee, 14 Jan 2022
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Roop »

Prem Kumar wrote:... I can't imagine that the Naval planners haven't finalized the aircraft for the aircraft carrier!
Unfortunately, the thing that you (and I) find hard to imagine is actually true. Yes, India's babucracy has actually achieved this feat -- the ship will be commissioned without a firm commitment of aircraft. What wonderful planners we have!
Even if we decide on the F-18 or Rafale-M or even the Mig-29K for that matter tomorrow, how long will it be before orders are placed & deliveries start?
It seems the plan is to decide on the aircraft, issue an order and ask for a lease of a small number (I think it is 6 or so) of that aircraft for a few years until the actual planes start being delivered. Under the best scenario, the full complement of actual (i.e. not leased) planes won't be present for 5 or 6 years at least (by my estimate). For all that time we will be operating with a crippled aircraft carrier. :(
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by ramana »

Rakesh, The plan needs an update in such economic conditions. One can't make a plan and not revise it as things change.
I don't agree that IN had a good plan.
They know what are the lift sizes for carriers of that displacement and wingspans of different naval aircraft.
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

ramana wrote:Rakesh, The plan needs an update in such economic conditions. One can't make a plan and not revise it as things change.
I don't agree that IN had a good plan. They know what are the lift sizes for carriers of that displacement and wingspans of different naval aircraft.
Ramana-ji, the vessel did indeed undergo several tonnage changes over the planning phase. From 28K in 1999, it went to around 32K in 2001 and then increased again to around 37.5K when a deal for the first batch of MiG-29K/KUBs was signed in 2004. Then in 2006, the nomenclature was also changed from Air Defence Ship (ADS) to IAC (Indigenous Aircraft Carrier). Continued design revisions brought the final tonnage to over 40,000 tons when her keel was laid in 2009. At present, the Vikrant displaces around 45,000 tons which is similar to the 45K tonnage on INS Vikramaditya.

The vessel had a continued revision over the course of planning & development. Where - IMVHO - the ball was dropped (or perhaps the lack of foresight) was the width of the lifts. Had the lift sizes been bigger, the IN would not be in the predicament of having to accommodate the Rafale M by removing her wingtips to fit on the lifts or having the F-18 sit in an awkward position on the lifts. Although HVT Sir made a cryptic comment about the lift being sized just perfect for the Tejas. The TEDBF will also work, as she is still in the design stage.

The counter argument to the small lift dimensions was when the Vikrant was designed, Russia was the only country (at that point in time) that lent their design expertise in the construction of the Vikrant (which stemmed from the Vikramaditya). Either India did not approach (or if India did, she was turned down) other countries like France, UK or the US - all of whom operate aircraft carriers. But with Russian help came Russian biases. The lift was perfectly sized just right for the MiG-29K/KUB. The Naval Tejas Mk1 - being smaller than the MiG-29K - was also going to fit. While I am not privy to the details, I would be surprised if the design and operation of the lifts on the Vikrant did not mirror that of the Vikramaditya. Easier solution to copy-and-paste, versus a brand new design which could have added delays.

Apart from the lift issue, the STOBAR design on the Vikrant is another limiting factor. Both the F-18SH and Rafale M are optimized for a CATOBAR design. That design has an inherent advantage, in that these aircraft are able to carry a much heavier payload than taking off from a ski jump like on the Vikrant. A catapult launch is extremely vital for navies like the US which conduct intensive carrier operations - around the globe - 24-7-365. The French Navy also conducts such operations, but nowhere near the scale or scope that the US Navy does.

However, both the lift and STOBAR design of the Vikrant will not be a limiting factor for the Rafale M or the F-18SH. For the Indian Navy, carrier operations largely revolve around keeping the sea trade routes around the Indian Ocean free. Unlike the United States, India has no need to send her carriers to the far corners of the globe to conduct her diplomacy. All this talk of IAC-2 (the next Indian Navy carrier with EMALS plus nuclear power) influencing events from Alaska to the South China Sea was a fancy bedtime story that a BRF Member came up with. American geopolitical analysts were also hyping up IAC-2 (interoperability argument) to just sell some F-18s to the Indian Navy.

Both the Rafale M and the F-18 will be able to carry a pair of anti-ship missiles, a pair of CCMs + drop tanks to protect the carrier strike group from enemy surface combatants during war. Additional aircraft - with BVRAAMs + CCMs + drop tanks - can be added as escorts for these strike aircraft as well. These tests that Dassault and Boeing are doing at the SBTF in Goa, is to test the viability of these aircraft operating from a ski jump with such a payload. But don't expect the Vikrant to venture into the South China Sea, as the odds are tilted in the PLAN's favour as Admiral Sunil Lanba (retd) said. The Indian Ocean is as far as where are aircraft carriers will operate. Our area of interests lie primarily there.

The most limiting factor in the STOBAR design is the lack of a dedicated AEW aircraft like the E-2D Hawkeye. The Vikramaditya's AEW component presently consists of the Ka-31, but the E-2D obviously has longer legs and can even fly higher. That is something the IN will have to work on, as that is quite vital for an effective CBG. Whatever the solution is though, that component will not operate from a vessel like the Vikrant because she is a STOBAR vessel. Unless the radar & sensors are miniaturized to such an extent that the weight penalty is virtually diminished to take off with ease from a STOBAR vessel. Even Uncle Sam has yet to achieve that level of technological mastery or wizardry :)

Moral of my long reply - the Vikrant is a good design when her keel was laid in 2009 and she still is a good design. The Rafale M and the F-18SH are great combat aircraft. Either one will serve the IN quite well. But the marriage of the Vikrant and Rafale M or F-18SH will require some work. Like all marriages that last, compromises will have to be made on both sides. But when achieved (when it comes to the Indian Navy, the term IF does not apply), India will be better off.

But the Vikrant requires an air wing NOW and neither the MiG-29K or the Naval Tejas Mk1 make that cut. She will be commissioned this August! A long term lease (10 to 15 years) of around 18+ aircraft will serve the IN quite well, till the TEDBF comes on board. A well drafted lease agreement - with specific requirements and responsibilities from both customer and OEM - could actually work for the Indian Navy. It will be cheaper than outright purchase.
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Cain Marko »

Rakesh wrote:

But the Vikrant requires an air wing NOW and neither the MiG-29K or the Naval Tejas Mk1 make that cut. She will be commissioned this August! A long term lease (10 to 15 years) of around 18+ aircraft will serve the IN quite well, till the TEDBF comes on board. A well drafted lease agreement - with specific requirements and responsibilities from both customer and OEM - could actually work for the Indian Navy. It will be cheaper than outright purchase.
I've been thinking and saying the same for the psst months/year. It will hopefully cost less too. Big question is... Do the USN and the French have these available for quickish delivery or will they have to build them from scratch?
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by brar_w »

The French Navy has something like 40 Rafales in total so they aren't going to be able to just hand off nearly half of those on a long term lease w/o severely crippling their ability to deploy for any meaningful missions. I doubt the USN would have capacity of block III jets and the ones available will be Block II at best. Much simpler to lease either of these as new build and work out a deal where each nation/OEM nation takes them back after a set period of time or have a deal to buy them at a later date when funds become available.
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by ldev »

Prem Kumar wrote:What aircraft was planned to equip INS Vikrant? Its close to commissioning and I can't imagine that the Naval planners haven't finalized the aircraft for the aircraft carrier!

Even if we decide on the F-18 or Rafale-M or even the Mig-29K for that matter tomorrow, how long will it be before orders are placed & deliveries start?
I may be wrong here but AFAIK, the design of the Vikrant including the size of the aircraft elevators was fixed during the late 1990s, early 2000s when because of geopolitical reasons the only aircraft being considered were the Mig-29 and the Harrier (then in service with the IN). Other options were not available to India. As it turned out subsequent IN operations have showed that the Mig 29 is not rugged enough to withstand the stress of carrier landings, the Rafale M does not have folding wings and hence will have to be parked on deck, impacting carrying capacity, and the limitations of maintenance on deck, and the F-18 has to be canted slightly by a few degrees to clear the lift dimensions, so the IN is in this dilemma today.
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

Cain Marko wrote:
Rakesh wrote:

But the Vikrant requires an air wing NOW and neither the MiG-29K or the Naval Tejas Mk1 make that cut. She will be commissioned this August! A long term lease (10 to 15 years) of around 18+ aircraft will serve the IN quite well, till the TEDBF comes on board. A well drafted lease agreement - with specific requirements and responsibilities from both customer and OEM - could actually work for the Indian Navy. It will be cheaper than outright purchase.
I've been thinking and saying the same for the psst months/year. It will hopefully cost less too. Big question is... Do the USN and the French have these available for quickish delivery or will they have to build them from scratch?
I don't know about the F-18, but I am confident that brar can provide more detailed info on that. There are options available to both France and India with the Rafale M, but they will have to be new build aircraft unless Flottille 11F, 12F or 16F (the three Rafale M units with the French Naval Air Arm) are willing to lend their Rafale Ms. I doubt that, seeing how the Charles De Gaulle just returned from a refit and they will require all their 40+ Rafale Ms to meet their commitments.
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by brar_w »

Both the French and the USN tier their readiness. The French naval arm has roughly 42 rafales, and in a tiered structure, and say 60% availability they would have very few to maintain that pre-deployment ops temp. Not to mention that they won't be able to deploy a full complement until those are backfilled and because the French AF already has future orders it must received (because it sold some of its inventory as exports) it will take some time before they receive those aircraft. Buying is probably the best option unless the leased amounts are small (4-6 aircraft for carrier training and integration etc). Its quite surprising that the carrier is out there running trials and they haven't figured out what air-wing it will actually have for it.
Last edited by brar_w on 15 Jan 2022 21:49, edited 1 time in total.
Rakesh
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

Good point. There was a HT news report about 6 - 8 Rafale Ms on temporary lease to India. But I ignored it, considering it was just a rumour.

Brar, the MiG-29K will definitely operate in the short term (till the Rafale M or F-18SH arrive). That cannot be avoided.
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

What would be icing on the cake right now, would be a small order of 6 - 8 Naval Tejas Mk1s for carrier pilot training. Deliveries could take up to three years, but it would a good shot in the arm for Atmanirbhar Bharat. Also valuable data for the TEDBF developmental team.
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

So much for the three aircraft carrier strategy! The Navy's insistence on the next vessel being a super carrier is going to cost them. Another Vikrant Class vessel to be followed by the super carrier will be a better option. A follow on Vikrant Class vessel will be ready by the end of this decade, or the latest by the early 2030s.

https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... 61220?s=20 ---> Next Indian aircraft carrier will be the replacement of INS Vikramaditya, which is scheduled for retirement around 2040.
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

Rafale Begins Ski-Jump Demo At Goa Today
https://www.livefistdefence.com/rafale- ... goa-today/
10 Jan 2022
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by sankum »

18 Rafale M + 8 Naval LCA trainer is my preferred choice.
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by AkshaySG »

Rakesh wrote:What would be icing on the cake right now, would be a small order of 6 - 8 Naval Tejas Mk1s for carrier pilot training. Deliveries could take up to three years, but it would a good shot in the arm for Atmanirbhar Bharat. Also valuable data for the TEDBF developmental team.
In addition to valuable data for TEDBF and pilot trainings they could also operate from Naval Air Stations in Andaman , Nicobar ,Seychelles ? et al and allow us to eek the rest of the Mig29k life until TEDBF comes along
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by srin »

Whether the aircraft can fit the dimensions of the Vikrant lifts is just one aspect. If the wings can't fold, then the number of birds that can fit in the hangar would be much less and hence the strike power of the carrier gets reduced.
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Prem Kumar »

Thanks for the detailed background, Rakesh. Its quite a sorry state of affairs, some of which could have been avoided. Post 2009 design freeze, even if they had found out about the Mig-29K unsuitability in the next 5-6 years, they still had 6 years to finalize the aircraft, even though it'd have been too late to modify the lift design.
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

srin wrote:Whether the aircraft can fit the dimensions of the Vikrant lifts is just one aspect. If the wings can't fold, then the number of birds that can fit in the hangar would be much less and hence the strike power of the carrier gets reduced.
This is how Rafales are stationed in the hangar of the Charles De Gualle.

https://twitter.com/Ninja998998/status/ ... 28480?s=20 --->

Image

Image
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Cain Marko »

Prem Kumar wrote:Thanks for the detailed background, Rakesh. Its quite a sorry state of affairs, some of which could have been avoided. Post 2009 design freeze, even if they had found out about the Mig-29K unsuitability in the next 5-6 years, they still had 6 years to finalize the aircraft, even though it'd have been too late to modify the lift design.
This is a sad, sad story. Any ninny and armchair admiral could have told the IN that the LCA was never going to work for the V-Series STOBAR carriers. They knew this the moment that IAF complained that even the IAF variant did not have enough thrust for their needs. That was THE moment to jump on the ORCA/TEDBF wholeheartedly. Two engines would have given the designers tons more room to play with and made everyone's job easier. And by today (if not earlier), we would probably have had both ready for production (or in production). Its frankly, an unforgivable mistake that could end up costing India dearly.

I don't for a moment buy the idea that the IAF/IN didn't foresee this. They would have to be unfathomably incompetent, which they are not. That leaves only one possibility - they chose to look away from this option. Typical fabian policy, and yes "import pasandi". There I said it.
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