INS Vikrant: News and Discussion

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ramana
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by ramana »

Yeah put a bigger lift etc. But don't hold out for unobtainable as you are jeopardizing national interests.
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

I am not sure that a larger nuke powered ship is unobtainable.

It can just be a scaled up vikramaditya. With the reactor doing the job of the furnaces of the ship. The propulsion plant will have to be scaled up accordingly. The modification is relatively minor. If the starting position is a scaled up Vikramaditya.

Or if the objective is to build a conventional ship. Even then the Vikrant design can be scaled up to be Double the size with more powerful GT. The modification will be quite minor. If the ship is being scaled up by 100% this will give it an opportunity to build EM cats on the ship.

Given the history of the DND. I will be quite shocked if they are not actually ready with detailed design drawings for both the possible ships. Because after all they have had over 15 years to work on the Vikrant successor design and had access to the vikramaditya blue prints for the same amount of time.

Only finishing work will be required. Which should not take more than 24 to 36 months.

So as per my thinking a second Vikrant class ship is logical to preserve the skills base of the labour force. Ordered by 2022 -23 will be in the water by 2028.

While the DND puts the finishing touches on the follow up ship. This ship can be laid down by 2028 or 29 once the dry dock becomes available.
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by sankum »

According to defence decide width of hanger lift is 11.2m.
Vishnu Som will later clear the doubts of lift width in upcoming video.
His tweet on hanger firescreen photo.
My estimate is first section at 100 m. Behind that 40 to 50 m of more hanger length can be expected.

India Today

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_x44ABQgqQ

Stratnewsglobal

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ETl3LbFn_8
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Srikanth P »

INS Vikrant is 12 years late and 13 times the budgeted cost
https://www.business-standard.com/artic ... 915_1.html

BY AJAI SHUKLA:

Amidst media fanfare, India’s first indigenous aircraft carrier (IAC-1), the 40,000 tonne INS Vikrant, went out to sea last week, for its first sea trial. “Trials progressed as planned and system parameters proved satisfactory,” stated the navy on INS Vikrant’sreturn to Cochin Shipyard Ltd (CSL), where it was built.

Alongside the jubilation, however, lies a saga of shortfalls and ineptitude – in planning, obtaining sanctions, designing, construction and financing – that has caused a delay of 12 years in building the aircraft carrier and shot up its cost 13 times. Furthermore, the MiG29K and MiG29KUB, the carrier’s primary fighters, spent more time in the hangar than in the air, with fleet serviceability remaining below 50 per cent.

The details lie in a report of the Comptroller & Auditor General – Report Number 17 of 2016, hereafter “the CAG report” – and in replies given by the Ministry of Defence (MoD) to Parliamentary questions last year.

An aircraft carrier navy

An aircraft carrier, which is essential for gaining sea control, is central to the Indian Navy’s operational requirements and fleet doctrine, says the CAG report, underscoring India’s tradition of being “an aircraft carrier navy”.

The Navy’s carrier tradition dates back to March 1961, when it commissioned its first aircraft carrier, INS Vikrant. The 19,500 tonne vessel had earlier served the Royal Navy as HMS Hercules.

During that same period, the Royal Navy commissioned HMS Hermes, in 1959 – a 28,700-tonne aircraft carrier. In 1987, when India’s defence spending was at an all-time high, it joined the Indian navy fleet as INS Viraat.

But two carriers were inadequate, the Indian Navy calculated, for an emerging regional power with a 7,500-kilometre coastline, power projection ambitions, and two distinct sea sectors – the Arabian Sea to the west and the Bay of Bengal to the east.

The CAG report says the Indian Navy Perspective Plan (1985-2000) envisaged a need for three aircraft carriers, of which two would be operational at any given time (one on each coast), with the third in refit. This was reiterated in the Maritime Capability Perspective Plan, 2012-27.

To achieve this force level, the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) cleared construction of an IAC in May 1999. The Navy formulated staff requirements (SRs) – listing a warship’s functions, features and performance – in September 1985, envisioning a carrier of about 35,000 tonnes.

In December 1988, a contract was concluded with DCNS, France (now renamed Naval Group) for the concept design of what was termed a Sea Control Ship (SCS).This was to be a mid-sized aircraft carrier that could destroy enemy naval forces, suppress enemy sea commerce, protect vital sea lanes, and establish local military superiority in vital sea areas.

DCNS’s concept design, presented in March 1990, concluded that a carrier of around 37,500 tonnes was required. But, the economic crunch of the early 1990s forced the navy to drastically pare the SRs, limiting the carrier to just 19,500 tons.

In May 1999, with the Kargil conflict imminent, the Navy insisted on getting a more capable carrier. The original INS Vikrant had been decommissioned two years earlier and INS Viraat was due for major refit. The MoD proposed to the CCS the construction of an indigenously designed Air Defence Ship (ADS) – as the IAC/SCS was termed in the MoD’s proposals of May 1999 and October 2002.

The cost of the ADS was projected at Rs 1,725 crore, with delivery in 8-10 years.

In October 2002, with the Indian and Pakistani militaries having spent almost a year in eyeball-to-eyeball confrontation in Operation Parakram, the MoD told the CCS that the importance of sea control and power projection demanded a 37,000 tonne carrier.

Accordingly, the MoD revised the cost of the ADS from Rs 1,725 crore to Rs 3,261 crore – still grossly inadequate. Delivery was to be in eight years, i.e. in December 2010.

“Thereafter, the Ministry again proposed (March 2014) to the CCS a revision in cost of the aircraft carrier to Rs 19,341 crore along with revision in its delivery schedule from December 2010 to December 2018, which was approved (July 2014) by the CCS,” notes the CAG report.

Since then, senior naval sources say that the cost of IAC-1 has risen to 23,000 crore.

With INS Viraat due to retire in 2016-17 and no replacement in sight, a stopgap was clearly essential. Eventually a Russian carrier – the Admiral Gorshkov – was commissioned into the navy in November 2013. “The Indian Navy’s operational readiness and maritime capability will be affected due to the availability of only one aircraft carrier,” notes the CAG report.

Planning and Design

CSL, the shipyard that would build INS Vikrant, had no experience of warship construction. Yet DCNS’ recommendations to augment its capabilities were only partially implemented. “There is continuing disagreement over project timelines between the Indian Navy and CSL, with realistic dates for delivery yet to be worked out,” notes the CAG report.

Furthermore, “Non-availability of steel delayed commencement of hull fabrication whereas late receipts of critical equipment like diesel alternators and gearboxes delayed launching of the ship,” says the report.

The gravest delays afflicted the Aviation Facilities Complex, which handles all flying operations. This has not yet been delivered.

MiG29K/KUB Aircraft

The MiG29K, which Russia designed to operate off INS Vikramaditya, was also chosen for INS Vikrant as “the mainstay of integral fleet air defence.”

Yet the CAG report says the MiG-29K, “is riddled with problems relating to airframe, RD Mark-33 engine and fly-by-wire system…. Serviceability of MiG29K was low, ranging from 15.93 to 37.63 per cent and that of MiG29KUB ranging from 21.30 to 47.14 per cent.”

Furthermore, the MiG-29K’s full mission simulator, on which pilots are trained to operate off aircraft carriers, was found unsuitable, “as the (simulator’s) visuals did not support the (mission) profile.”

The Navy says INS Vikrant will be commissioned in 2022. Even so, the navy would still need to evaluate the Aviation Facilities Complex by carrying out flying trials with the MiG-29 – which will carry on into 2023.
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by fanne »

snakeoil shukla doing another round of rudali - but towards what purpose?
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Roop »

sankum wrote:According to defence decide width of hanger lift is 11.2m.
This is interesting. Until now, all the whispers/rumours going around said that the lift width was about 10m. All prior discussions of this topic on the forum proceeded on that basis, and we all concluded that Rafale-M and F/A 18-E were out of the question, because of that. (Naval Tejas too, but for a different reason, nothing to do with the lift).

Now we find out this new number from Defence Decode. Googal Chacha tells me that the wingspan of Rafale-M is 11.0m, and of F/A 18-E (folded) is 9.32m. I presume naval Tejas wingspan is less than that of Rafale-M. Therefore, in theory, all three aircraft could serve on the Vikrant-2. Rafale-M would be a really tight fit on the lift, but F18 and Tejas-M should fit comfortably. This gives the IN options for aircraft selection, if they need to replace that lemon Mig-29K.
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

fanne wrote:snakeoil shukla doing another round of rudali - but towards what purpose?
Sell F-18 on behalf of America.
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by RishiChatterjee »

Srikanth P wrote:Yet the CAG report says the MiG-29K, “is riddled with problems relating to airframe, RD Mark-33 engine and fly-by-wire system…. Serviceability of MiG29K was low, ranging from 15.93 to 37.63 per cent and that of MiG29KUB ranging from 21.30 to 47.14 per cent.”
I still don't get why we can't use a few NLCAs, with these CAG findings in mind. India's primary maritime strike element in the IOR region is IAF's 222 ‘Tiger Sharks’ squadron of Brahmos-A equipped Su-30MKIs based in Thanjavur, Tamil Nadu... not those carrier Mig-29Ks!

Astra, Python-5 armed NLCAs should provide better A2A performance any day off the week.
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by srin »

There was an interview posted (last year ?) with HAL chairman who said that the NLCA couldn't carry sufficient payload because it was too heavy.

So, outside of training, I don't think there will be a role for NLCA.

I reckon we'll be ordering more Mig-29Ks
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Cain Marko »

RishiChatterjee wrote:
Srikanth P wrote:Yet the CAG report says the MiG-29K...
I still don't get why we can't use a few NLCAs...
I would love to know what year these figures referenced by Snakelaw are coming from. They seem to be identical to those from the 2016 report.Last I saw the navy chief was on record saying all problems with the 29k were resolved. Here is a report writing CNS Lanba.
.."There is no issue on supplies of spare parts from Russia at the moment… The MiG-29K fleet has been performing well now," Admiral Sunil Lanba said on Monday while addressing the press on the eve of Navy Day.

According to a report by the Comptroller and Auditor General of India, in 2016, serviceability of the MiG-29K was unsatisfactory (37.63%) until 2015. However, recent efforts made by the two countries have improved serviceability to around 70%. Serviceability implies that the aircraft is technically available and is not undergoing a scheduled repair or overhaul at any level.
http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articl ... miral.html
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

Click on the link below for video...

https://twitter.com/VishnuNDTV/status/1 ... 90240?s=20 --->

1. Here is video of one of the two lifts of Vikrant - the issue is not how large or how small it is. It is about how the lift will be most efficiently used and what aircraft suits it. This is an entirely hypothetical discussion since the MiG-29K isn't going anywhere.

2. At least two senior Naval officers whom I spoke to in Kochi have said that the indigenous Twin Engine Deck Based Fighter (TEDBF) based on the successful Tejas-Navy prototype should be a priority, not necessarily the Rafale or Super Hornet.

3. In all cases, this needs appropriate political will and a clear understanding of future operational requirements. What's more, our aviation complex has only so many highly experienced engineers to embark on any new project - their hands are already full.

4. There is the stealthy Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA), the Tejas Mk-1A and 2 all being developed. A clear decision needs to be made on prioritising this with a budget and timelines.

5. Project definition means having to take a call on stealth (AMCA-N) vs TEDBD (4th generation + but with significant payload benefits). This needs to be done now to ensure we have a replacement for the MiG-29K in the future.

6. I have flown on both the Super Hornet and the Rafale extensively - and have been showcased their superb weapons and radar/avionics/EW systems integration. Have also flown on Tejas - and she is getting there. We need to pick Indian is my personal opinion.
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

srin wrote:I reckon we'll be ordering more Mig-29Ks
Yes, to replace the attrition losses.
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

Pratyush wrote:
fanne wrote:snakeoil shukla doing another round of rudali - but towards what purpose?
Sell F-18 on behalf of America.
Earlier he was pushing for F-35, until a couple of successive Air Chiefs said that they were not interested in the F-35.

Now with S-400 in the mix, the chances of F-35 coming are zero.
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by brar_w »

Rakesh wrote:5. Project definition means having to take a call on stealth (AMCA-N) vs TEDBD (4th generation + but with significant payload benefits). This needs to be done now to ensure we have a replacement for the MiG-29K in the future.
This is such a good point. With Tejas Mk1A, MWF, AMCA, TEDBF etc all being developed something will have to give at some point unless a dramatic increase in resources is provided the likes of which we probably haven't seen in the past. Even if you stagger these there will still be competition for resources and trade offs will eventually have to be made so clear priorities should be established. A clean sheet naval fighter, fully operational and deployed is a 12-15 year undertaking even for the best design, test, and integration teams. And this assumes near perfect execution and major sub systems already having been developed and matured (like engine). Add more development (new or upgraded engines, new mission system architecture etc) then you are looking at two full decades. There is very little in the way of accelerants to that schedule unless you go unmanned, take a lot of risk and cut corners none of which are options here.
Last edited by brar_w on 15 Aug 2021 22:09, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Vips »

Vivek K
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Vivek K »

Rakesh wrote: 2. At least two senior Naval officers whom I spoke to in Kochi have said that the indigenous Twin Engine Deck Based Fighter (TEDBF) based on the successful Tejas-Navy prototype should be a priority, not necessarily the Rafale or Super Hornet.
Amen!!
4. There is the stealthy Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA), the Tejas Mk-1A and 2 all being developed. A clear decision needs to be made on prioritising this with a budget and timelines.
........

6. I have flown on both the Super Hornet and the Rafale extensively - and have been showcased their superb weapons and radar/avionics/EW systems integration. Have also flown on Tejas - and she is getting there. We need to pick Indian is my personal opinion.
Instead of lusting for foreign brochures, everyone needs to be more grounded in reality. I'm glad the lifts do not fit any other fighters! Finally a Chanakya in the Naval Design bureau?
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

Certainly seems like there is a Chanakya (or more than one) at the Indian Naval Design Bureau. And which ever way IAC-2 takes shape, it will be a long time before she arrives. If she is a CATOBAR, the case for TEDBF becomes a no brainer decision. And if it is another STOBAR, they will have enough MiG-29Ks for both ships.

At this stage, it appears highly unlikely that either Rafale M or F-18SH will fly with the Indian Naval Air Arm. Vishnu Som just confirmed what I mentioned earlier in this thread —> the MiG-29K is here to stay. They are not going to retire her anytime in this decade. And if and when there is a delay with the TEDBF program, they will give a life extension to the MiG-29K fleet.
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by kit »

Vivek K wrote:Finally a Chanakya in the Naval Design bureau?
I think only MiG-29K was the game in town at that point
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

The Russians - once again - came through, albeit for their own future business.

And TEDBF is being designed from the ground up, so issues of tight fit on the lifts should not arise.

The F-18 and Rafale M was a good ride, till it lasted. It will continue to sputter on, in the imagination of a few in India and elsewhere.
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Cyrano »

Hilarious but sasura quite a good summary !

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

The first tweet is dated 14 Aug 2021.

https://twitter.com/VishnuNDTV/status/1 ... 18181?s=20 ---> Russian engineers arriving to install parts of the aviation complex - this will eventually pave the way for flight trials on Vikrant.

https://twitter.com/vkthakur/status/142 ... 71488?s=20 ---> Russia's Nevskoye Design Bureau is helping the Cochin shipyard with the development of the flight deck. Nevskoye Design Bureau also supports flight operations on INS Vikramaditya.

https://twitter.com/vkthakur/status/142 ... 86501?s=20 ---> Arrestor cables are supplied by Russia's Marine Engineering Research Institute and made by Proletarsky Zavod plant. It's unlikely that the cables could arrest a Super Hornet. LCA Navy yes, but not Super Hornet.

https://twitter.com/vkthakur/status/142 ... 30596?s=20 ---> I think Hornet on Vikrant is largely fiction. The retrofit required for Hornet operations would be too extensive to make sense. It would also involve trashing the MiG-29K early in its life. Embarking MiG-35 would make more sense as it wouldn't involve extensive retrofit.

Image
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by uddu »

Watch at 6:30 --- Vice Admiral Anil Kumar Chawla is saying that the final version of Light Combat Aircraft Tejas will be deployed. TEDBF being not LCA, there may be a chance for Naval Tejas operating from INS Vikrant?

1) Reason being a decade for the TEDBF to materialize.
2) Around 7 or so numbers of Tejas per carrier being mentioned
3) TEDBF being capable of fully replacing the Mig-29's.

Most probably these 10 years could see mix of both Mig-29 and Naval Tejas before TEDBF arrives.

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by sankum »

Initially 8 to 18 NLCA were planned. See if final order takes place. Upto 3 T external payload can be expected.
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by sajaym »

Rakesh wrote:....
This is my only nitpick...What is the technical unobtanium that we can't design an 'aviation complex' on our own? Is it because we are operating a russian fighter?

Tomorrow if we buy the Rafale, do we have to bring in the french to redesign the 'aviation complex' or the Americans if we buy the SH?
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by JTull »

Pratyush wrote:
fanne wrote:snakeoil shukla doing another round of rudali - but towards what purpose?
Sell F-18 on behalf of America.
One of things these dinosaurs don't realise about New India is that you can't diss India to get business.
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by fanne »

Bhai saab, this dude is no deen -suar, he was supposedly the army expert on the panel that was formed to give away Siachin to TSP during clown prince mamma rule (with a rubber stamp you know what)
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

sajaym wrote:This is my only nitpick...What is the technical unobtanium that we can't design an 'aviation complex' on our own? Is it because we are operating a russian fighter?

Tomorrow if we buy the Rafale, do we have to bring in the french to redesign the 'aviation complex' or the Americans if we buy the SH?
When the Admiral Gorshkov was built, the aviation complex was built around a Russian design of carrier operations operating the Yak-38 VSTOL aircraft and Kamov helicopters. And when the Admiral Gorshkov was being converted into INS Vikramaditya, the aviation complex was transformed from operating the Yak-38 to the MiG-29K naval fighter.

The main fighter aircraft on the Vikrant will be the MiG-29K and thus for ease of operations, copying the aviation complex design from Vikramaditya is the logical thing to do. See this video at 9:30

Good question about the Rafale and F-18SH. I would assume so, but someone will need to confirm. They have operated the Naval Tejas Mk1 on board the Vikramaditya, so the same will be true for the Vikrant. And the TEDBF will be the same.

Indian Bird + American Engine + Russian Aviation Complex = Indian Naval Air Power.

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by VinodTK »



Onboard India's first indigenous aircraft carrier - IAC Vikrant | Republic TV Special Report
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Gagan »

Need lots of pictures of the INS Vikrant please
Is there a folder or a link that I can access?
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

India’s Aircraft Carriers: From Vikrant To Vikrant

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

NDTV On Board India's First Indigenous Aircraft Carrier Vikrant

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

Reflections on India's Vikrant-Centric Carrier Battle Group
https://maritimeindia.org/reflections-o ... tle-group/
19 August 2021

By Vice Admiral Pradeep Chauhan, AVSM & Bar, VSM, IN (Retd)
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Roop »

Rakesh wrote:Reflections on India's Vikrant-Centric Carrier Battle Group
https://maritimeindia.org/reflections-o ... tle-group/
19 August 2021

By Vice Admiral Pradeep Chauhan, AVSM & Bar, VSM, IN (Retd)
That's an excellent article which should IMO go into a 'sticky' post.
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by RishiChatterjee »

Roop wrote:
Rakesh wrote:Reflections on India's Vikrant-Centric Carrier Battle Group
https://maritimeindia.org/reflections-o ... tle-group/
19 August 2021

By Vice Admiral Pradeep Chauhan, AVSM & Bar, VSM, IN (Retd)
That's an excellent article which should IMO go into a 'sticky' post.
+1

That is gold.
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Cyrano »

Highly educative and enjoyable article! thanks for posting. Hope MoD babus get it and read it or read it and get it ;-)
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

Cyrano wrote:Highly educative and enjoyable article! thanks for posting. Hope MoD babus get it and read it or read it and get it ;-)
Given the acumen displayed by Babu's of India till date. Along with some of the past Defence Ministers. I will not count on it. The only hope is that the current DM and PM understanding what the admiral has stated.

PS I have been pleasently surprised by the low key performance of Shri RNS as DM.
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Yagnasri »

RNS is one of the most underestimated administrators. Done quite well against Naxals during his tenure as Home Minister also.
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/PatilSushmit/status ... 22274?s=20 ---> The Russian company Aerosvet, has successfully completed installation work of the installation of light-signaling equipment on the new Indian aircraft carrier Vikrant.

Image

Image
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by nam »

So the TDV radar has not been placed yet :roll:

I am early waiting for it's darshan.
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

The ship looks like a house decorated for diwali.

Let's pray that it's service life will be auspicious and conducive to enhancement of national security goals.
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