INS Vikrant: News and Discussion

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KSingh
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by KSingh »

<poof>

Admin note: stop providing just a link and that too your own tweet here! You can always post the same text here and we can read here. Also this topic has been discussed at length a page back
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Vips »

NRao wrote:https://twitter.com/narendramodi/status ... 7767972864
Tomorrow, 2nd September is a landmark day for India’s efforts to become Aatmanirbhar in the defence sector. The first indigenously designed and built aircraft carrier INS Vikrant will be commissioned. The new Naval Ensign (Nishaan) will also be unveiled.
I sincerely hope they get rid of the Saint George's Cross
17th century naval roadmap by Chhatrapati Shivaji inspires Indian Navy's contemporary ensign
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by ShauryaT »

Congratulations to the Navy and the government for launching the Vikrant and the new Insignia. May our sea warriors spread India's glory, wherever the waters take them.
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

INS Vikrant has launched her own official twitter page!

Twitter Account of INS Vikrant ---> https://twitter.com/IN_R11Vikrant

Image
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

Very interesting....but I am assuming this timeline is for a 65K STOBAR vessel. Just shows the confidence gained in the construction of INS Vikrant.

Navy pushes for third carrier, a 65,000-tonne warship
https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/natio ... hip-427962
02 Sept 2022
After having built the Vikrant – the biggest warship made by India ever — Madhu Nair, Chairman and Managing Director of Cochin Shipyard Limited, told The Tribune the “build time” for the next carrier could be cut down significantly. “Once a go-ahead is given for the next carrier, we can make it in eight years or so,” said Nair. “A new dock is coming up, it will be capable of handling 70,000-tonne ships,” he added. It took 13 years to make the Vikrant — from the keel-laying in February 2009 to its commissioning.
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

Laying the keel of India’s third nuclear-powered aircraft carrier
https://www.financialexpress.com/defenc ... r/2598992/
19 July 2022

An older article from 2015. CSL has been pushing for a follow on aircraft carrier since 2015. The tragedy of time wasted by IN and the MoD is sad.

CSL offers to build another aircraft carrier
https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... 212380.ece
16 May 2015
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

Fighter jet shortage may make Vikrant toothless
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cit ... 939624.cms
03 Sept 2022
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by SSridhar »

Vikrant to be berthed at Kattupalli Port in Chennai
India’s first indigenously developed and built aircraft carrier INS Vikrant, which was dedicated to the nation by Prime Minister Narendra Modi in Kochi on Friday, is likely to be berthed at Kattupalli Port near Chennai for nearly eight years due to a lack of adequate infrastructure in Visakhapatnam.

The 262-metre-long and 62-metre-wide warship will eventually be based at the Eastern Naval Command headquarters in Visakhapatnam.

According to sources, Indian Navy has been holding discussions with L&T Shipyard in Kattupalli to berth the ship for the past few years. In 2020, a defence committee was informed by the Indian Navy about the port being shortlisted for berthing the aircraft carrier temporarily.

Kattupalli Port has the depth and its jetty has the length to berth the giant carrier. The interim arrangement will continue till a new base, currently being developed to host the carrier in Visakhapatnam, is ready for use. Additional infrastructure is being created near Kattupalli Port for Indian Navy to cater to the warship.

Kattupalli created history by becoming the first shipyard in India to carry out repairs for United States’ Navy Ship (USNS). Recently, United States Sealift Command’s Lewis and Clark-class dry cargo ship USNS Charles Drew, which conducts ‘replenishments-at-sea’ by delivering critical supplies (food, fuel, spare parts and mail) to US Navy ships, docked at the port. The US Navy had awarded a contract to L&T’s shipyard at Kattupalli to undertake maintenance of the ship after surveying various yards.
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Vayutuvan »

Nice. Kattupalli can become a fallback port for other Indian warships too in the future then.
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

A wonderful close up shot of INS Vikrant's island at night.

https://twitter.com/CaptDKS/status/1566 ... GWjuYfPUCQ --->

Image
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

INS Vikrant sets sail: Why it is key to India’s maritime strategy
https://indianexpress.com/article/opini ... y-8127379/
03 Sept 2022
Despite rising costs and vulnerability, the aircraft carrier continues to be at the heart of India’s maritime strategy.
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

Does India need aircraft carriers?

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by ramana »

Rakesh was this by choice? Why such sneering faces on this happy occasion?

This question is answered by the commissioning of the INS Vikrant.
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by SSridhar »

Vayutuvan wrote:Nice. Kattupalli can become a fallback port for other Indian warships too in the future then.
More than that, its construction capabilities must be utilized for bigger IN warships.
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by S_Madhukar »

Gurus if we can build a Vikrant, can Cochin shipyards build container ships ... if we are exporting as much wud be cheaper and have our own merchant fleet?
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

ramana wrote:Rakesh was this by choice? Why such sneering faces on this happy occasion?

This question is answered by the commissioning of the INS Vikrant.
Ramana-ji, I find Ashley Tellis' assessment of 65K tons to be surprising. He says a minimum of 65,000 tons is required for an aircraft carrier to make sense. And as per him, this is a study conducted by the US Navy. And guess what is the planned tonnage of IAC-2? 65,000 tons :mrgreen: The lobbying cannot get anymore obvious than this.

Whatever the tonnage of IAC-2 ends up at, if it is another STOBAR vessel...it will be looked down upon. Only CATOBAR will make sense to the lobby. And EMALS will have to come. The only two navies (France and US) in the world that operate CATOBAR vessels use steam powered catapult technology from Amreeka. The next generation (EMALS) of catapults are to be used on the Ford Class and the next French aircraft carrier due to arrive in the 2030s. Steam catapults are done, unless India makes her own steam or EMALS system. There is a project of the latter going on somewhere in India. But it is only in drawing board/model stage. AFAIK, nothing concrete has been finalized.

The only third country that will operate a catapult aircraft carrier, will be the PLAN's Fujian. It will either be steam catapult or EMALS, but I suspect it will be the latter. EMALS is the new game in town. The PLAN will have a trying time to get it going though. They are jumping straight from STOBAR to a new generation catapult system. Unlike the US Navy, they have ZERO real world experience in operating a catapult system. So the development learning and operational curve will be long.

If it was not for the AEW platform, a STOBAR vessel is actually sufficient for India's needs. The Indian Navy is not an expeditionary force that needs a global military presence and neither do we need combat aircraft to carry massive payloads like the F-18SH does from the Nimitz/Ford Class of vessels. Who in heaven's name are we going to bomb with that payload? Our aircraft carriers will operate in all three spheres of naval operations, but nothing close to what the US Navy does with their CBGs. Their CBGs are used for wielding diplomacy and influencing outcomes around the world. Our CBGs will largely be used for anti-ship/sub missions and keeping the sea lanes open.

But the lack of an AEW capability aboard the Vikrant, is her Achilles heel. Unless technology can significantly bring down the weight of a AEW platform, a CATOBAR vessel is the only option. The Ka-31 AEW which the Indian Navy operates is sub-optimal when compared to something like the E-2D Advanced Hawkeye. You need that long, all seeing eye around the aircraft carrier when it sails in the Arabian Sea, the Indian Ocean or the Bay of Bengal. The E-2D can fly much higher than the Ka-31 can and that makes all the difference, due to the earth's curvature.

The Govt needs to sanction IAC-2 right away and as per CSL, they can deliver a 65,000 ton vessel in 8 years. I posted that recently in this thread I believe. But one vessel is not enough. There needs to be a long term perspective plan of multiple vessels. Planning is just not our forte though. For India, money is no longer the primary issue today. It is priorities. Our priorities are misplaced and led by senior officers with vested interests, fighting turf wars and maintaining service relevance in the Indian hierarchy.
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

India's zone of influence and theatre of operations is the map below. Drag & drop picture into new window for a better view.

From the Arabian Sea westward to the Gulf of Oman, then south to the Horn of Africa and then further south again to the end of the African continent. From there, then all the way east to the tip of the Australian continent and then up north again to Indonesia, then further north to the Andaman Sea and finally end at the mouth of the Bay of Bengal.

The shipping lanes in this vast area must be kept open and free from danger. The global trade here is measured not in billions, but rather in trillions of dollars. Under no circumstances must China be allowed to exert any influence over this area. The 45K INS Vikrant, while an admirable and laudable achievement for India, is not enough for this vast area. More aircraft carriers are needed to keep this area free & fair for everyone.

A single IAC-2 is not enough. There has to be an IAC-3 and an IAC-4 that follows right after. The Indian Ocean is named after India after all. If India does not take up the responsibility to manage her own backyard, then China will.

Image Source: https://www.britannica.com/place/Indian-Ocean

Image
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

S_Madhukar wrote:Gurus if we can build a Vikrant, can Cochin shipyards build container ships ... if we are exporting as much wud be cheaper and have our own merchant fleet?
OT for the thread, but Cochin lacks the dock capacity for the kind of ships you have in mind. Reliance Naval and Engineering Limited, in Gujarat has yard capacity for such ships, but it went bankrupt waiting for orders. The dry dock is capable of building ships with 400000 tons. Cochin IIRC, can build only upto 80000 tons for commercial shipping.

The dry dock infrastructure of Reliance Naval should still exist.
Last edited by Pratyush on 06 Sep 2022 08:10, edited 1 time in total.
Pratyush
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

Rakesh/ Ramana, BEL has a project for EMALS, this was posted on this thread only. They are at the lab stage of the project.

https://idrw.org/indias-bel-experimenti ... ch-system/

If you read the above in conjunction with the below news. If would seem that the project for a larger EMALS equipped ship is quietly underway.

https://m.economictimes.com/news/defenc ... 149665.cms
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by ShauryaT »

Rakesh wrote:A single IAC-2 is not enough. There has to be an IAC-3 and an IAC-4 that follows right after. The Indian Ocean is named after India after all. If India does not take up the responsibility to manage her own backyard, then China will.
While I do not disagree with the need to have more carriers, the reasoning for such has to be clear. If our domain of interests is limited to the IOR only and that too limited to preserving of open trade, one can make an argument that it can be achieved though other means by way of air assets from the mainland, the islands and bases say in Seychelles/Mauritius and Vietnam for the IOR. These assets would be tankers, large body AEW and ASW, LR fighters and bombers, LR missiles and sub surface assets.

An aircraft carrier has a fleet defense role but the fleet's purpose including its air wing is largely for offensive uses. PLAN has a clear domination plan for the Asian region and it is arming for such. If India has to make an investment into aircraft carriers, we need to evolve from being a defensive to an offensive force with corresponding geo-political objectives. Do not think we can do it all and hence judicious choices should be made. Offense is the best defense is where I would hope India leans to.
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by neerajb »

Pratyush wrote:...Reliance Naval and Engineering Limited, in Gujarat has yard capacity for such ships, but it went bankrupt waiting for orders. The dry dock is capable of building ships with 400000 tons.....
The dry dock infrastructure of Reliance Naval should still exist.
It started as Pipavav shipyard and had a large dock to build/repair aircraft carriers. It waited many-many years for orders from MOD which didn't materialize. It even got license to build warships but again the orders were never placed. Later on it was bought by Reliance. Goes to show the GOI's apathy towards building domestic MIC.
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

Again OT for the thread. But as a pvt sector company, nothing stopped either Pipav or Reliance from seeking orders from international or domestic shipping companies for civilian use.

Why only the MOD is responsible for the running of the yard. Especially when the PSU yards are not being fully utilised for the naval build-up.
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by JTull »

Pratyush wrote:
S_Madhukar wrote:Gurus if we can build a Vikrant, can Cochin shipyards build container ships ... if we are exporting as much wud be cheaper and have our own merchant fleet?
OT for the thread, but Cochin lacks the dock capacity for the kind of ships you have in mind. Reliance Naval and Engineering Limited, in Gujarat has yard capacity for such ships, but it went bankrupt waiting for orders. The dry dock is capable of building ships with 400000 tons. Cochin IIRC, can build only upto 80000 tons for commercial shipping.

The dry dock infrastructure of Reliance Naval should still exist.
Two mistakes in above.

Cochin Shipyard already has a larger dry dock in the works.
Cochin Shipyard readying to commission new dry dock, international ship repair facility

Reliance Naval Engineering had order for 4 OPVs, which they tried to their typical Anal Ambani tricks on. Bid low to be L1 and then try to bribe/increase contract size. IN lost a decade in the process.
lMinistry of Defence cancels Reliance Naval & Engineering Ltd's Rs 2,500 Crore contract
Pratyush wrote:Rakesh/ Ramana, BEL has a project for EMALS, this was posted on this thread only. They are at the lab stage of the project.

https://idrw.org/indias-bel-experimenti ... ch-system/

If you read the above in conjunction with the below news. If would seem that the project for a larger EMALS equipped ship is quietly underway.

https://m.economictimes.com/news/defenc ... 149665.cms
Electric propulsion is not EMALS. Though power generation and management equipment requirements have commonality. Several classes of power will be required (almost like a nuclear reactor) to manage redundancies and critical operations.
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

I don't think that any mistakes have been made.

1) I was explicitly refering to the posters point about the CSL being able to produce large ships for merchant applications. Where the CSL is currently limited to a dock yard capacity of 80000 tons. The new dock you are referring to is being built and not yet completed.

2) WRT, Pipav/ Reliance, the original order from the Indian Navy was for 6 OPV to be produced by the yard, when it was still Pipav. Not when it became Reliance. The way you have addressed Anil Ambani is potentially defamatory. Please edit your post.

3) EMALS use electrical power to function. It is vital for a ship to have sufficient electricity generation capacity to both have propulsion, hotel function and the ability to operate the EMALS. How that power is produced is irrelevant. It can be thought a conventional electric plant. Or a nuke power plant.

You can argue that the aircraft carrier will require a great deal of tanker support for successful operation. But then the escort already require the tanker support every 4-5 days during routine operations.

The new UK aircraft carrier were designed for but not fitted with EMALS.
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by JTull »

Pratyush wrote:I don't think that any mistakes have been made.
...
The new UK aircraft carrier were designed for but not fitted with EMALS.
LOL

I am happy for you! There's no point in discussion when you've no idea how to put an argument together. I'll leave it at that.
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by kit »





Cochin Shipyard Limited (CSL) is constructing New Dry Dock at an estimated cost of Rs.1799 crores. This dry-dock is conceived with a length of 310 M and will be a stepped dock with a width of 75 M at the wider part and 60 M at the narrower part. It will have a depth of 13 M and a drought of 9.5 M. In terms of the size of the dock and strength of the dock floor, this will be one of the largest dry docks in India. The new dry-dock when commissioned, will help CSL to have a more diversified product profile. This, dual purpose dry dock is planned essentially to tap the market potential of repairs/ construction of specialized and technologically advanced large vessels such as LNG vessels, Jack Up Rigs. Drill Ships, large dredgers, second Indigenous Aircraft carrier and repair of offshore platforms and larger vessels. The new dry dock can comfortably handle Aircraft Carriers of 70,000 T docking displacement and Tankers and Merchant vessels of 55,000 T docking displacement. The dock floor is designed to take a loading of 600T/m. The design caters for sufficient safety margins as per international codes. The new dock is expected to be commissioned by July 2023.
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

JTull.

Edit the way you have addressed Anil Ambani. Or you are exposing the forum to defamation suit.
1) news link for pipavav getting the OPV contract.

https://www.livemint.com/Companies/wJAh ... -prof.html

2) link for reliance take over of pipavav.

https://www.business-standard.com/artic ... 209_1.html

if you don't have facts on your side, use rhetoric and attack the posters.

Nice.

Good night.
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

Both (Pratyush and JTull), please chill and do not respond to each other.
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/mod-con ... catapults/

For all those who think that it will take a nuclear reactor to power EMALS.
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by SidSoma »

Rakesh wrote: If it was not for the AEW platform, a STOBAR vessel is actually sufficient for India's needs. ..............

But the lack of an AEW capability aboard the Vikrant, is her Achilles heel. Unless technology can significantly bring down the weight of a AEW platform, a CATOBAR vessel is the only option. The Ka-31 AEW which the Indian Navy operates is sub-optimal when compared to something like the E-2D Advanced Hawkeye. You need that long, all seeing eye around the aircraft carrier when it sails in the Arabian Sea, the Indian Ocean or the Bay of Bengal. The E-2D can fly much higher than the Ka-31 can and that makes all the difference, due to the earth's curvature.
This is what Cmdr Mao had to say about AEW

https://twitter.com/JA_Maolankar/status ... 0935811072
Make that 80 years. All or nothing could prevent VKD/VIK from ever acquiring AEW! Why say Never!
Is it really not possible to have a working STOBAR based Fixed wing AEW ??
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

The USSR was developing Yak 44 for such applications.

We could fund the development of the airframe to be fitted with Indian mission control systems.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yakovlev_Yak-44
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by arshyam »

Back in the day, Dr Kalam worked on a project called RATO {rocket assisted take-off). Can something similar be explored for a fixed wing AEW off a STOBAR?
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Cybaru »

Best is to start on an IMRH-AEW project. Order 5/10 in those config. They can also be deployed/refueled from any of the capital ships and can see far enough. I presume IMRH will have higher operational ceiling than either Ka-31 or sea kings. If they manage operational ceiling at 15-18K, it will make a huge difference than not having anything or using Ka-31s.

Lets not spend another 2-4 billion getting nuclear and emals just for AEW. That value funds the whole airwing of vikrant. Keep it simple and move on...

Use dhruv as tech demo and stick a partial or scaled down netra panel on it (6/7 meter by 2 meter). We can have it working in another few years. Don't have to wait for first IMRH to fly to sanction this.

Image
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by hnair »

Cybaru, the main issues with helicopter AEW are:

1) power generation for sensors
2) transit to station and back

It is a good choice for fleet defense, but not for full on air war or land attack.
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by hnair »

Regarding private yards in India, I have posted about this before, based on my conversations with both sides: initial private players were not financially big enough to survive the crippling bank-guarantee requirements.

1) The private folks roll their cash holdings around into non-defense sectors of their business and that caused delays in subsystem orders, contractual payments to foreign entities for subsystems etc. The hefty bank guarantees demanded by Navy/MoD is locked up capital, which financially stresses these smaller but ambitious players

2) Navy and MoD did not want to indefinitely wait and get accused of corruption and favoring private players. The stodgy and slow public sector yards do not have such politically expensive issues, even if they delay by a decade.

When the private guys’ cost and time overruns became politically untenable, the Navy was forced to pull the plug and encash the bank guarantees, resulting in companies going bankrupt.

So the entire procurement system (private players and services) was not ready for big ticket order books due to political situations as well as lack of crisp financial management by private players. We are seeing that for other services too, particularly artillery.

Repeatedly saying that BRF cliche that “govt did not order fast or enough” is not sufficient to explain a complex situation: India is now going Khan way by letting big players acquire smaller ones, so the financial stress is reduced. It will probably take another decade for two to three viable Indian prime contractors to stabilize. But the progress we made for complex subsystems in private sector is phenomenal in the last 20 years. Khan had similar issues with smaller players during the 90s when orderbooks went down after Cold War. So need some patience!
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

Actions like the one below didn't help the matters regarding domestic shipbuilding as well.

Mazagaon in the dock for hush-hush joint venture pact
https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... 666773.ece
22 July 2012
Last edited by Pratyush on 08 Sep 2022 20:04, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

‘Vikrant, by herself, is not enough’: Vice Admiral Biswajit Dasgupta
https://delhidefencereview.com/2022/09/ ... -dasgupta/
06 Sept 2022
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by SRajesh »

hnair wrote:
It is a good choice for fleet defense, but not for full on air war or land attack.
What about tilt rotor ones like a V22??
And maybe Netra on top??
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