INS Vikrant: News and Discussion

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Cain Marko
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Cain Marko »

Rakesh wrote: https://twitter.com/arunp2810/status/15 ... Udb9J4aV5g ---> If Shandong or Liaoning threaten our shipping in the Persian Gulf, no aircraft from Thanjavur can help.
But Su-30MKI from Jamnagar probably could.
Barath
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Barath »

Rakesh wrote: Illuminating look at the history of India’s pursuit of carrier-based air power. The “need” was driven mostly by prestige, and then sustained by the fallacy of sunk costs.

A Twitter thread on carrier debate by Mihir Shah ---> https://twitter.com/elmihiro/status/133 ... aYyvQNx_2A
There's always more that should have been said or left out in these discussions. For example, protection of india's oil and trade supply routes in the Arabian sea to the gulf - something that is arguably more critical/vulnerable than the so called Malacca chokehold wet dream.

Or the diplomatic importance of a carrier in peace and quasi peace - eg to keep potential allies or neutrals like Singapore, Malaysia etc (or even the US) from ignoring India as non consequential for them or to have them consider India as worth wooing or to prevent them from simply flopping over to the Chinese side. On this scale, billions might even be considered cheap.

Or the actual longevity of the Vikramaditya and timelines involved in the 'third' aircraft carrier debate. India's actual 3rd carrier is the Vikramaditya. Whether India will have 3 concurrent carriers is open. Or the point that carriers can concentrate forces instead of being isolated on one coast. And conventional carriers operating near to home may require less off time than nuclear carriers operating several seas away. And of the possibility of amphib carriers in the mix at some point.

Or that the kind of mobile air power needed hardly even comes across as consequential, when it arguably should be the driving factor in a carrier discussion that is more than prestige. What kind of planes, how many, awacs, uav, are all key elements to be sorted through.

Or that carrier tracking and surviving is not the same copy-paste of US vs China, or that an exercise closer to WW2 than the current day may not be the unshakeable example of a trend

Or of the dynamics of the Indian navy contributing against Pakistan (or even china), desperate to prove relevance and utility, vs IAF/IA (whether P75I or carrier), while Pak and China themselves have substantially different on ground force and diplomatic options than in 1971.
Roop
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Roop »

Barath wrote:Or the diplomatic importance of a carrier in peace and quasi peace - eg to keep potential allies or neutrals like Singapore, Malaysia etc (or even the US) from ignoring India as non consequential for them or to have them consider India as worth wooing or to prevent them from simply flopping over to the Chinese side. On this scale, billions might even be considered cheap.
This is an excellent point that does not, IMO, get enough mention (or indeed any mention) in any of the flamboyant TV shout-fest debates on maritime power, or any of the newspaper/magazine articles on the topic.

What you are describing is called "showing the flag" and is certainly worth the billions it would cost (IMO of course).
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

Rakesh wrote: https://twitter.com/VishnuNDTV/status/1 ... oAl5dJ7mOg ---> For those wondering ... the Rafale M can fit onto the elevators of the new Vikrant. Its all about how the jet is positioned. Hope this puts an end to that `controversy!'
A "possible" positioning of the Rafale M on the lift of the Vikrant....

https://twitter.com/manchuxi/status/160 ... YGd-SRLuRQ --->

Image
Rakesh
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

Why delta wings are worth their weight in gold on tight spaces like aircraft carriers. This picture is on the deck of the aircraft carrier, so just imagine the hangar. And this picture is a US Navy aircraft carrier! The Vikrant is far smaller in comparison.

And the F-14 is not a traditional delta wing, but the wings can be swept back in a delta wing configuration.

https://twitter.com/CcibChris/status/16 ... YGd-SRLuRQ --->

Image
Rakesh
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/ajaynewsman/status/ ... YGd-SRLuRQ ---> Need another Vikrant like 45K tonne carrier: Navy seeks MoD nod. It will be same design and STOBAR. Bigger 70k tonne carrier on hold for now.

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SidSoma
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by SidSoma »

And just like that 5 years timeline became 7-8 years :( .

Who is accountable for such decisions ....... or do we say chalta hai.?
sum
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by sum »

^^ The more it changes, the same it stays! :cry:

Even a newbie on BRF would have predicted this situation will happen 5 years ago and exactly the same story plays out!
SidSoma
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by SidSoma »

On a serious note. Its about time they plan for the replacement of Vikramaditya as well. Either add 2 Vikrant carriers or 1 Viki + 1 Enhanced Viki.

The currant Viki can take on the MiG 29s if they have some tech life left in them.
ramana
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by ramana »

SidSoma wrote:And just like that 5 years timeline became 7-8 years :( .

Who is accountable for such decisions ....... or do we say chalta hai.?
Yes. There are some lessons learned in making the Vikrant.
And need drawing changes hence takes some time.
Eg. The Lift needs to be widened and leads to structural changes.
It is not chalta hai.
JTull
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by JTull »

Long lead time items like powerplant can be ordered if there isn't going to be a change on that side.
Pratyush
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

Has the Navy stated that we are going to build a copy of Vikrant?

Or they have stated that they are going to build a ship based on Vikrant with modifications?
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by KSingh »

SidSoma wrote:And just like that 5 years timeline became 7-8 years :( .

Who is accountable for such decisions ....... or do we say chalta hai.?
5 years for a 45k ton carrier was always beyond optimistic, 7-8 years was what CSL proposed once Vikrant left their yard which is realistic

The biggest issue we are talking about 7-8 years 3-4 years from now as they won’t be giving the go ahead for a LONG time.


As I’ve gotten a lot of flak for saying- the IN will be a 1.5 carrier force until the late 2030s
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

Picture was taken during PM Modi's visit to INS Vikrant's commissioning on 02 Sept 2022.

https://twitter.com/ThingsNavy/status/1 ... XPh8Q9Wwug ---> The bridge of INS Vikrant.

Image
Cyrano
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Cyrano »

What?!! No 3D holographic sensor fused realtime battlefield projection on the bridge?

Ok, may be it's classifed so no pix can be taken. ;)
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by putnanja »

Rakesh
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

Thank you for posting this. Perhaps or someone can clarify this query of mine.

See this video. Check out from 1:47 in the video ---> https://twitter.com/A_Kumar36/status/16 ... tjG8A8up1w

Vice Admiral SN Ghormade, Vice Chief of Naval Staff (VCNS), is stating that the MiG-29K (Serial # 827) did its *FIRST* landing on INS Vikrant on 06 Feb 2023. I would like to know what metric the Indian Navy is using, to state that the landing on 06 Feb 2023 was the first time a MiG-29K landed on the Vikrant. This is surprising, because of the below.

====================================

This tweet below is dated 25 Aug 2022, a few weeks before the commissioning of the Vikrant in September 2022. You have a MiG-29K (Serial # 817) on the deck of the aircraft carrier and another photo of a MiG-29K (again Serial # 817) inside the hangar. How did this aircraft land up there, without landing on the aircraft carrier first? And that clearly is the Vikrant, because of the unmistakable island.

https://twitter.com/VivekSi85847001/sta ... 83q_tasjKw

Video of Vikrant heading out for sea trials. You can clearly see a MiG-29K on the deck of the Vikrant. Tweet is dated 01 Nov 2022, but states the video is from Oct 2022.

https://twitter.com/MadhawTiwari/status ... tjG8A8up1w

Video of a MiG-29K doing taxi trials on the deck of the Vikrant. Tweet is dated 27 Jan 2023.

https://twitter.com/ShivamNarayans9/sta ... tjG8A8up1w
Rakesh
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

How did the aircraft reach there in the first place, to be lifted onto the Vikrant? Fighter aircraft can land on concrete piers/docks? :) :mrgreen:

When an aircraft carrier leaves port, she carries no serviceable aircraft on board. Her airwing takes off from their home bases and land on the vessel. When an aircraft carrier returns back to port, all her serviceable aircraft are disembarked and return to their land bases. Fighter aircraft return to Dabolim, home of INS Hansa.
Avid
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Avid »

Rakesh wrote:How did the aircraft reach there in the first place, to be lifted onto the Vikrant? Fighter aircraft can land on concrete piers/docks? :) :mrgreen:

When an aircraft carrier leaves port, she carries no serviceable aircraft on board. Her airwing takes off from their home bases and land on the vessel. When an aircraft carrier returns back to port, all her serviceable aircraft are disembarked and return to their land bases. Fighter aircraft return to Dabolim, home of INS Hansa.
As an indian you should know -- those were "off-the-books"; on the book, the first official landing is the only one considered *first*
(much like virgins till marriage -- male and female both)
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

Avid wrote:As an indian you should know -- those were "off-the-books"; on the book, the first official landing is the only one considered *first*
(much like virgins till marriage -- male and female both)
That is the only plausible explanation that I can think of :) Thank You Saar.

Perhaps it was the first official landing of a MiG-29K on the vessel, post commissioning in Sept 2022. The taxi trials onboard in Jan 2023, was possibly a run up to the "official" event on 06 Feb 2023.
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Raman »

It is not at all unusual for aircraft to be craned aboard
Example 1
Example 2
Example 3

I also distinctly remember an image of a harrier being hoisted onto a Royal Navy carrier, but can't locate it.

Edit: It wasn't this one, but it will do Sea Harrier
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Raman »

Rakesh wrote:How did the aircraft reach there in the first place, to be lifted onto the Vikrant? Fighter aircraft can land on concrete piers/docks? :) :mrgreen:
If they are in a navy base, I would imagine that aircraft carriers have specialized piers where the aircraft can be towed onto and then craned aboard.
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

Thank you Raman. My source just confirmed that one MiG-29K was craned onboard.
ramana
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by ramana »

You guys have missed the NAval LCA landing and takeoff from INS Vikrant and its geopolitical impacts.
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

ramana wrote:You guys have missed the NAval LCA landing and takeoff from INS Vikrant and its geopolitical impacts.
Ramana-ji, it is being tracked in the Naval LCA thread.
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Atmavik »

Mig 29 K Landing on Vikrant

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Gx81hiE_GU

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Kersi »

Raman wrote:It is not at all unusual for aircraft to be craned aboard
Example 1
Example 2
Example 3

I also distinctly remember an image of a harrier being hoisted onto a Royal Navy carrier, but can't locate it.

Edit: It wasn't this one, but it will do Sea Harrier
What are these aircraft ?
1) F 14 Tomcat
2) A-1 Skyraider ???
3) F-8 Crusader ???

I think i may have seen a pic of good old Seahawk on a barge next to original INS Vikrant.

I remember my first visit on original INS Vikrant, in naval dockyard. I remember seeing a Seahawk in the hangar, with folded wings

Guess which year ???
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by putnanja »

From the official Twitter handle of INS Vikrant. Has a touch and go of Mig-29K too..

*************
Here's a sneak peek into the ongoing fighter trials and maiden landings of #LCANavy and #MIG29K onboard #INSVikrant #R11...
**************


https://twitter.com/IN_R11Vikrant/statu ... fsrc=email
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Manish_P »

Kersi wrote:..
What are these aircraft ?
1) F 14 Tomcat
2) A-1 Skyraider ???
3) F-8 Crusader ???
...
3 out of 3 :)
Kersi
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Kersi »

Manish_P wrote:
Kersi wrote:..
What are these aircraft ?
1) F 14 Tomcat
2) A-1 Skyraider ???
3) F-8 Crusader ???
...
3 out of 3 :)
WOW. :D :D :D :D :D :D
Sure of (1), but unsure of (2) and (3)
Manish_P
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Manish_P »

Kersi wrote:
Manish_P wrote:
3 out of 3 :)
WOW. :D :D :D :D :D :D
Sure of (1), but unsure of (2) and (3)
For 2 and 3, the sibling birds on the deck are helpful cues :wink:
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Cyrano »

What can be the Next Ups ?

- Simultaneous handling of Mig29Ks and NLCAs on Vikrant ? To train the teams to switch between managing 2 different fighters and optimise processes ?
- Put more fighters on board to increase above and below the deck operations intensity and increase launch & recovery rate ?

Regarding NLCAs - what if they were the ONLY birds available for whatever reason? Would IN design missions they can achieve with these birds or say "this mission can only be done by a fighter with the capabilities of Rafale or SH, else it cant be done at all. Sorry IN won't help here" ?

Sometimes I think IN aviation and IAF display a spoiled "dowry damaad" behaviour.
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

Click on link below for video....

https://twitter.com/indiannavy/status/1 ... 83232?s=20 ---> Fire fighting bot developed by Swadeshi Empresa being developed for Indian Navy under @India_iDEX #SPRINT initiative handed over to INS Vikrant for user trials. Detects seat of fire & extinguishes it using water/foam jet/spray, keeping humans away from danger.

Image

Image
ramana
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Re: INS Vikrant: News and Discussion

Post by ramana »

Folks, Please cut some slack to the IN. Among the forces, they have been the most self-reliant fauj. And current admirals are not the same as even five years ago.
NLCA was to showcase the first Indian naval plane on the first Indian-built aircraft carrier.
The significance has not been lost on the services and those near and far allies and adversaries.

After that the M-g-29 as its the only operating fighter plane with the IN.
They have solved the Rafale wing span issue.

And showed pragmatism with the plans for follow-on carriers.

Push comes to show they are the only force that can fight in faraway lands.
Think about this last one.
ernest
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by ernest »

Rakesh wrote:Click on link below for video....

https://twitter.com/indiannavy/status/1 ... 83232?s=20 ---> Fire fighting bot developed by Swadeshi Empresa being developed for Indian Navy under @India_iDEX #SPRINT initiative handed over to INS Vikrant for user trials. Detects seat of fire & extinguishes it using water/foam jet/spray, keeping humans away from danger.
I am curious what fire proofing is done for tyres?
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Re: INS Vikrant: News and Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

A number of important milestones in the article. Do read...

Aviation trials on, INS Vikrant to be operational by year end: Navy Chief
https://www.republicworld.com/india-new ... eshow.html
16 Feb 2023
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Re: INS Vikrant: News and Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

The Indian Navy's carrier air wing, from left to right...

* HAL Chetak - for Search & Rescue
* HAL Dhruv MR - for Marine Reconnaissance
* Kamov Ka-31 (?) - for Airborne Early Warning
* Sea King Mk42C - used by MARCOS, so surprising that it is there instead of the MK42B ASW variant. The latter will be replaced by the Sikorsky MH-60R, which will give a huge jump in capability.
* MiG-29K - multirole naval fighter to be replaced by the chosen MRCBF in the near future, which will be another force multiplier.

https://twitter.com/delhidefence/status ... 19489?s=20 ---> That's a lot of birds on deck. The Carrier Air Wing of INS Vikrant comes together with MiG-29K, ALH Mk III Dhruv (MR), Sea King Mk 42, Kamov and HAL Chetak embarked on-board.

Image
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Re: INS Vikrant: News and Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

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Re: INS Vikrant: News and Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

From Admiral Hari Kumar...

Rafale M or F-18SH, Navy ‘Okay’ With Both, Ball Now In Govt Court: Navy Chief Hari Kumar
https://news.abplive.com/india-at-2047/ ... ar-1586161
04 March 2023
“This will be decision of the government. We have said yes to both. Now it’s for the MoD (Ministry of Defence) to decide. Both the aircraft are okay. They have proved themselves. But now there will be other issues, for example, we already have Rafales for the Air Force. Now there will be commonality for spare parts and support etc.,” the Navy Chief added.
=================================================

26 by ’26: India has a chance to get new naval fighters quickly, with Boeing’s Super Hornet production ending
https://stratpost.com/26-by-26-india-ha ... on-ending/
24 Feb 2023
Boeing has announced it will complete F/A-18 production by the end of 2025.
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Re: INS Vikrant: News and Discussion

Post by fanne »

this was unexpected. I was hoping for Navy to say Rafale is better. By saying both are good and govt chooses Rafale, BIF with SC will cry corruption. I guess Rafale M has to wait after GE2024 election. All thanks to over smart IN brass who could not decide between two planes which is better (or were snared in taking this line so that they can contribute to the BIF agenda).
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