INS Vikrant: News and Discussion

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Cybaru
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Cybaru »

hnair wrote:Cybaru, the main issues with helicopter AEW are:

1) power generation for sensors
2) transit to station and back

It is a good choice for fleet defense, but not for full on air war or land attack.
Thank you you for your thoughts! Appreciate the response.. A few more questions sir.

How much excess power is needed? I am curious, surely some sort of larger engine can be used to create a hybrid system which powers the electronics and drives the main+tail rotors. Much easier problem to solve as it our own platform vs designing and maintaining a nuke carrier along with designing and maintaining emals on the ship.

2. Transit issue, wouldn't it being able to refuel on the outskirts of the battle group like on a smaller picket ship/frigate and maintain higher on station time? those generally are 50-100 miles from the carrier. It may not need to be housed there, but just enough to land-refuel-maintain station, perhaps a spare crew may even stationed there. Anyways most CAP and E2D don't go further than 200 miles from the CBG as they lose on station time then.

Wouldn't there also be an advantage on storage on the carrier? 4/5 AEW based copters vs 2 E2D etc, allowing 2 to be deployed at all times improving the coverage

Future will be drone based AEW. It is probably 6-8 years away. Perhaps those could be stobar launched and arrested recovery. Much less risk to losing life.

If it is good enough for fleet defense, why not order those alteast and then worry about how to get better assets like C295 or A320 for war time.
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by BenG »

Cybaru wrote:Best is to start on an IMRH-AEW project. Order 5/10 in those config. They can also be deployed/refueled from any of the capital ships and can see far enough. I presume IMRH will have higher operational ceiling than either Ka-31 or sea kings. If they manage operational ceiling at 15-18K, it will make a huge difference than not having anything or using Ka-31s.

Lets not spend another 2-4 billion getting nuclear and emals just for AEW. That value funds the whole airwing of vikrant. Keep it simple and move on...

Use dhruv as tech demo and stick a partial or scaled down netra panel on it (6/7 meter by 2 meter). We can have it working in another few years. Don't have to wait for first IMRH to fly to sanction this.
Using IMRH is an excellent idea especially on the economics aspect. The engine has higher power output than Ka-31 with more time on station. This approach is also a safe bet since 10 new Ka-31 deal is on hold. We can get a AEW with similar but improved capabilities when current Ka-31 retires.

Better yet make an unmanned version with a stealth data link. A datalink which can securely guide missile defense, CIWS and suicide drones.
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

Sea control, or sea denial? Defining India's strategic intent in the Indian Ocean
https://www.ajaishukla.com/2022/09/sea- ... ining.html
05 Sept 2022
Pratyush
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

I have for the last 25 years or trying to understand the meaning of both sea control and sea denial.

My conclusion is that unless you are able to control seas you will never be able to deny seas to your adversaries.

It is based on the outcome of the sea denial campaigns in 2 world wars.

Even the USSR, that is thought to be last major power attempting sea denial. For most of the time was attempting to wrest sea control from NATO. The tool chosen by them was the submarine for the purpose. But by the end of the cold war they were also thinking in terms of building a balanced fleet with full sized aircraft carriers.

PRC, inspite of having developed a whole bunch of anti access area denial missiles is still building aircraft carriers. For use both within and outside the first island chain.

What I am trying to say is that one cannot exist without the other and seeing them in isolation is creating a false dichotomy for political and dogmatic reason.
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by RCase »

arshyam wrote:Back in the day, Dr Kalam worked on a project called RATO {rocket assisted take-off). Can something similar be explored for a fixed wing AEW off a STOBAR?
Khan uses JATO (jet assisted take off) on C130's to take off in very short distances. The USN's Blue Angels aerobatics team has a C130 named Fat Albert that uses JATO I have personally witnessed it!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGVQa1wXp6o
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

IMO, JATO is not a practical way of operating from aircraft carriers. Because it's too risky.

It's adding another volatile item on what is the world's most dangerous work environment to begin with.
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by NRao »

Pratyush wrote:I have for the last 25 years or trying to understand the meaning of both sea control and sea denial.

My conclusion is that unless you are able to control seas you will never be able to deny seas to your adversaries.

................
Sea control is when you are the **sole authority** in the "sea". One operator - you.

Sea denial is when both you and the bad guy operate (in the contested area) and your success is measured by how miserable your opponent's life is.
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

NRao wrote:


Sea control is when you are the **sole authority** in the "sea". One operator - you.

Sea denial is when both you and the bad guy operate (in the contested area) and your success is measured by how miserable your opponent's life is.

But in so doing, you have demonstrated sea control.

Battle of Jutland is the best example of this.
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by NRao »

Pratyush wrote:
NRao wrote: Sea control is when you are the **sole authority** in the "sea". One operator - you.

Sea denial is when both you and the bad guy operate (in the contested area) and your success is measured by how miserable your opponent's life is.

But in so doing, you have demonstrated sea control.

Battle of Jutland is the best example of this.
No idea what you mean by "in so doing".

In control you alone are, in denial both of you and opponent are.

One could morph into the other - but, that is war. Your job is to control and sustain that state. The other guy has the same goal.
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

In so doing = exercising = state of being.

I think it's just a discussion about semantics.
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

Drag & Drop picture into new browser window for full size.

https://twitter.com/SupratikSaumya/stat ... OopxwBL0tQ ---> INS Vikrant photoshopped with multiple MiG-29Ks on the flight deck.

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

Now Cochin Shipyard to install missile systems on INS Vikrant
https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... 903193.ece
17 Sept 2022
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/IN_R11Vikrant/statu ... AdXmvR-fOQ ---> The crew of INS Vikrant R11 draws inspiration from its Crest and Motto. Dig in to find out more.

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

Interesting. Choice of upcoming MRCBF will also weigh in on the decision.

https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... AdXmvR-fOQ ---> Decision on new aircraft carrier to be taken in 2023 after operationalization of INS Vikrant: Navy Chief.
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

The Return of INS Vikrant
https://www.delhipolicygroup.org/public ... krant.html
16 August 2022

By Commodore Lalit Kapur (Retd.)
ramana
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by ramana »

Rakesh wrote:The Return of INS Vikrant
https://www.delhipolicygroup.org/public ... krant.html
16 August 2022

By Commodore Lalit Kapur (Retd.)
IAC-2 need is there and will be funded soon.
Admiral Ramdas long ago said for Indian ship builders three of a class are economic order quantity.
However the IN carrier officers want a new class with each ship.
The best option to retain ship building crew learning curve etc is another Vikrant Class, with proper lift size to accommodate larger wing spans. It can't have too much displacement as ship power goes up.

This new ship can replace Vikramaditya which can be relegated to training role as it's availability is close to zero.

So IAC-2 is not a third carrier but the second carrier.
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by JTull »

@Rakesh

This is a more accurate picture of 12 Mig-29Ks on the deck as per painted parking slots on the surface. (Ref Tweet)

Image
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... 0CMRC_UiJw ---> Report: INS Vikrant will be equipped with a passive Anti-Submarine Warfare (ASW) system incorporating a sonar with an integrated launcher and decoy system.
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

Electronic tugs are used aboard INS Vikrant, instead of the earlier human-driven tugs. These new tugs are controlled via remote. Such tugs are also used by the French Navy, aboard the Charles De Gaulle for their Rafale Ms. See pictures below...

This is the company that makes the tugs ---> https://www.mototok.com/how-does-it-work

https://twitter.com/ThingsNavy/status/1 ... wWPrLlIbfg --->

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by KSingh »

https://twitter.com/ksingh_1469/status/ ... -zOF_iOStQ ---> Remember these images when some will tell you the Super Hornet with no modifications can fit into the hanger of the Vikrant with no modifications despite only having <0.5m width clearance on the lifts. Hanger entry is even more restrictive.

Image

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Cyrano
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Cyrano »

Thats a rafale in the second pix. On board vikrant or is the pix the deck of some other carrier - CDG ?
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by KSingh »

Cyrano wrote:Thats a rafale in the second pix. On board vikrant or is the pix the deck of some other carrier - CDG ?
Look at the size of that lift. It’s CDG
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Cyrano »

I was referring to the 2nd pix in the post about Electronic tugs, sorry if I wasn't clear.
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by KSingh »

Cyrano wrote:I was referring to the 2nd pix in the post about Electronic tugs, sorry if I wasn't clear.
I was replying to that too, it’s clearly the CDG because that picture is taken on the lifts and there’s no way you could manoeuvre a Rafale that way on the lifts of Vikrant
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

That is indeed the Charles De Gaulle. She is the only French aircraft carrier in service today.

The only other vessel that can operate the Rafale M are the 11 Nimitz Class aircraft carriers of the US Navy. The Rafale M is fully interoperable with US Navy aircraft carriers. One airframe even underwent a full engine change aboard the USS George HW Bush.

However that picture is not aboard a US Navy aircraft carrier....because AFAIK, the US Navy does not use remote controlled tugs.
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/gchahal/status/1595 ... eJpLCPProg ---> French Defense Minister Sebastien Lecornu will board the aircraft carrier INS Vikrant off the coast of Mumbai on November 27, while the last of the contractual 36 Rafale fighters will arrive in India from France on December 13th with the assistance of a UAE mid-air refueler. Minister Lecornu will be in India for two days to strengthen bilateral defense cooperation. He will see his Indian colleague Rajnath Singh for talks on November 28 and is likely to meet Prime Minister Narendra Modi. His on-board visit to INS Vikrant, the indigenous aircraft carrier commissioned by Prime Minister Modi on 02 September 2022, is noteworthy since the French Rafale-M is one of two competitors for the floating airport. The F-18 fighter, made by Boeing in the US, is the other competitor for the 26 maritime strike planes for INS Vikrant. By the end of next month, India's other aircraft carrier, INS Vikramaditya, is anticipated to have undergone a significant overhaul, after which scheduled sea trials and aircraft landings are anticipated off the coast of Karwar.

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/VivekSi85847001/sta ... eJpLCPProg ---> US Navy Delegates & Consulate General Official during visit on INS Vikrant. The more time passes, the more lethal it would be.

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Kersi »

RCase wrote:
arshyam wrote:Back in the day, Dr Kalam worked on a project called RATO {rocket assisted take-off). Can something similar be explored for a fixed wing AEW off a STOBAR?
Khan uses JATO (jet assisted take off) on C130's to take off in very short distances. The USN's Blue Angels aerobatics team has a C130 named Fat Albert that uses JATO I have personally witnessed it!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGVQa1wXp6o
IAF also mounted a Orpheus (of Gnat) jet engine on top of C119 Packets. In 1960-70. Of course for land operations
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/IN_R11Vikrant/statu ... OsJMuXbMoQ ---> Building upon a robust & growing Indo-French bilateral relationship, Mr Sebastien Lecornu, Minister for Armed Forces, France @SebLecornu along with Mr Emmanuel Lenain, Ambassador of Republic of France in India and other high ranking French officials visited Vikrant. They were given a tour of the flat top and an overview of her capabilities.

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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by ramana »

Will Indian Navy decide on Rafale Marine for its aircraft carriers?
https://www.financialexpress.com/defenc ... s/2893468/
27 Nov 2022

Will Indian Navy decide on Rafale Marine for its aircraft carriers?
Both India and France are keen to strengthen their strategic and defence cooperation. The two sides will review the bilateral military relations as well during the India-France Defence Dialogue taking place in New Delhi.
Written by Huma Siddiqui
November 27, 2022 1:00:11 pm


Will Indian Navy decide on Rafale Marine for its aircraft carriers?
Both India and France are keen to strengthen their strategic and defence cooperation (File Photo: IAF).
India Navy is expected to soon decide which fighter aircraft it is keen to buy for its aircraft carriers. The two aircraft which were in the race include US-based Boeing Company’s Super Hornet or F/A-18 jets and French Dassault Aviation’s Rafale Marine.

Both India and France are keen to strengthen their strategic and defence cooperation in and during the 4th India-France Defence Dialogue taking place in New Delhi the two sides will review the bilateral military relations as well as discuss the possibility of procuring more fighter jets from Dassault Aviation – Rafale. France, as reported earlier, has offered these fighter jets for the Indian Air Force (IAF) as well as the marine version for the Indian Navy. Financial Express Online has reported earlier that the Air Force is keen to get 114 new combat aircraft for its depleting fleet besides the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft `Tejas’.


Is France ready to make it in India?


The French side has said that to set a production line in India they would need a committed order of around 100 aircraft. And if India decides to purchase more Rafale for Air Force it will be much cheaper than the previous 36 fighters that are now already in service. Why? “Because the main component of money was paid for research and development, certification and modification for India Specific Enhancements. Since India Specific Enhancements are all ready, in case more orders are placed it will be cheaper,” explained a senior officer on condition of anonymity.

Also there will be no extra expenditure involved as training and bases are all set here in India. And the two bases where the 36 fighters are based can accommodate more Rafale fighters easily. If India decides to go ahead with French fighters then these will not have any offsets obligation under the new procurement policy.

Financial express Online has reported earlier that earlier this year the French company had offered the marine version for the Indian Navy. The Indian Navy is looking to procure around 27 fighter jets for its aircraft carrier. On Monday this too will be on the table for discussions as the French Minister for Armed forces is also visiting INS Vikrant.

Views of Indian Navy Veterans

According to Cmde. Ranjit Rai (Retd): “With INS Vikrant and Vikramaditya, the decision for a better aircraft than MiG-29k which may not be able to take the full weapon load all the time, in all weather conditions is being looked at. And I think the most proven aircraft in the world from aircraft carriers flown by the marines of America is the F18. It is a fabulous piece of machine although the French Rafale, the Air Force, is flying very well.”

Adding, “But the Rafale still gives some problems to my knowledge and they have converted, the Swedish Gripen is trying to convert, so depending on the money aspects or international relations with countries and the evaluation is taking place, the Indian navy has always evaluated well.”

Says VAdm Vinod Pasricha (Retd), “As it stands, we are looking at both these aircrafts. The Rafale has been bought and we are looking at the other F-18 Hornet at the moment and we have not yet decided. Also at the moment, our aircraft carrier is the new one, we are not sure whether it would be able to operate the aircraft because what has been designed is for the MiG-29 which we are using with Russian technology for the arresting gear.”

“The ski jump is good enough to launch it but for the arrester I am not 100 percent sure whether it will work so once we decide which of the two aircraft we want I think we should also ensure that the next aircraft carrier IAC2 which is under design gets the technology so that we can use these aircraft on that either way it is a decision which I think is premature at this time,” he opines.
Huma writes well about what the issues are!!!
And who is batting for which aircraft?

One thing coming out is the IN carrier group has ensured IN has two sitting ducks(Vikramaditya and Vikrant) that cannot operate aircraft other than Mig -29ks which have low availability. One can't blame the Vikramaditya lifts for the one one Vikrant is different.

All the admirals involved should be named and shamed.
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

French Defence Minister Sebastien Lecornu set for India visit, to board INS Vikrant on 27 Nov
https://theprint.in/defence/french-defe ... v/1235358/
25 Nov 2022
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

^^^^

Both the above articles are stating that Dassault requires a minimum 100 aircraft order to set up a Rafale production line in India.

See this possible path (assuming Rafale M wins) ---> viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7634&start=2840#p2569743
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

Nube questions based on the Indian Navy desire to procure 26 fighters.

1) Is the mig29k so bad. That the units procured less than 15 years ago cannot be supported for another 10 years?

2) or the 40 odd units procured were insufficient to populate the decks of the 2 cariers? In which case the question to ask is why sufficient numbers were not procured for the 2 decks when the decisions were being made.
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

Nice photographs will come with this latest round of sea trials.

https://twitter.com/RAFIndia_/status/15 ... yIlcMz5lQQ ---> INS Vikrant departs Kochi for latest phase of sea trials. Fixed wing operations, involving N-LCA and MiG-29K conducting touch-and-go, landing, and takeoff are most expected in this round.
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by JTull »

I look forward to N-LCA being qualified to operate from INS Vikrant from the get go.
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Bala Vignesh »

JTull wrote:I look forward to N-LCA being qualified to operate from INS Vikrant from the get go.
To what end? The navy is refusing to acquire it even in token numbers.. Even that requires significant work in the aircraft..
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Cyrano »

Cant we build a squadron N-LCAs to be used as trainer aircraft for pilots and crews to get used to carrier operations? And then send pilots to type conversion from N-LCA to Mig29N. Flogging the Mig29-Ns for everything will eat away their already weak availability and service life.

IN should look at leveraging what we have instead of waiting for Godot. Instead I get the feeling IN prefers to have 2 A/Cs with hardly any fighters to operate from them until some miracle happens.
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Bala Vignesh »

According to Cdre Maolankar, making the NLCA a proper combat trainer entails significant investment, which I don't think the Navy wants to do, letting the fruit rot on the tree.
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by Ankit Desai »

Indian Navy puts on hold plans to build IAC 2, but is considering repeat order of Vikrant
Addressing the annual press conference on the eve of Navy Day, Navy Chief Admiral Hari Kumar said that the Navy is still working on what kind of size the IAC 2 should have and its capabilities. “Right now, the plans have been put on hold because we just commissioned Vikrant,”......

we are contemplating whether we should look at a repeat order of IAC 1
the Navy said that the force was analysing the report submitted following the “trials” of the Rafale M and the F/A 18 Super Hornets.

He said that the future of Indian naval aviation was the indigenous Twin Engine Deck Based Fighter (TEDBF), whose prototype is expected by 2026-27 and production to start somewhere around 2032.

“We are preparing a draft Cabinet note for the TEDBF,”
-Ankit
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Re: INS Vikrant News and Discussion

Post by SRajesh »

And above news of repeat Vikrant this is just sheer stupidity
Repeat should have been 2/3 years ago with an aircraft picked (maybe Rafale for commonality) and wider lifts
What ever unobtanium could have been delayed for a decade
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