INS Vikrant News and Discussion

[brar_w]

brar: is that from Janes' subscription section? Just be careful.

Thanks, I've taken out the part that was behind the paywall.

[Rakesh]

Thanks boss.

[Rakesh]

An interesting article on the cost of acquring an Aircraft Carrier and her Strike Group. As I said earlier in this thread, the MoD needs to cough serious cash for an effective CSG. Do read.

Capabilities Review: Squaring Naval Ambitions, Priorities & Resources
http://www.oxfordresearchgroup.org.uk/p ... rities_res

By Richard Reeve - the Director of the Sustainable Security Programme at ORG (Oxford Research Group). He was formerly Head of Research at International Alert and worked as a Research Fellow with King’s College London, Chatham House and as a Country Risk Editor, at Jane’s Information Group.

[Philip]

Serious cash indeed.Which right now we don't have,Why I've proposed before they're ordered, leveraging the amphib design into a light carrier/LHPD. I gave earlier US post WW2 revamping of 20+ carriers ,adding an angled deck ,etc. after the war.These would serve as aux carriers until the contours of a dedicated IAC-2 has been finally frozen.

[chola]

Serious cash indeed.Which right now we don't have,Why I've proposed before they're ordered, leveraging the amphib design into a light carrier/LHPD. I gave earlier US post WW2 revamping of 20+ carriers ,adding an angled deck ,etc. after the war.These would serve as aux carriers until the contours of a dedicated IAC-2 has been finally frozen.

Read the article carefully. Their SSBN program costs nearly three times as much as the carriers AND their airwings!

[Rakesh]

Indo-US navy meet for futuristic aircraft carrier
http://www.deccanherald.com/content/640 ... istic.html

India and USA have moved ahead on their collaboration to design and manufacture an aircraft carrier with advanced technology for the Indian Navy. In the last six days, a 13-member US team extensively toured Indian naval bases in Goa and Karwar besides checking on the facilities at the Mazgaon dock in Mumbai. The team also spent nearly four hours on-board INS Vikramaditya - India's only operational aircraft carrier. Indian Navy officials made it clear to the visiting US delegation that India looks at the transfer of the electromagnetic aircraft launch system (EMALS) from the USA for the proposed carrier, which currently is at the drawing board phase. The US Navy uses EMALS in their Ford Class aircraft carrier. Earlier this year, a team of visiting Indian Navy officers were given a tour to the USS Gerald R Ford, the super-carrier of the US Navy besides the manufacturing facilities of Boeing and Lockheed Martin.

The two sides agreed that the 60,000-70,000 tonne Indian carrier would not run on nuclear propulsion as the technology was not readily available and the Bhabha Atomic Research Centre would take almost 10-15 years to make appropriate nuclear reactors. But EMALS is very much on the agenda and so are some of the critical technologies related to radars and electronics. However, a final decision on these technologies would be taken once the government decides on the type of aircraft to be flown from the carrier. In January 2017, the Navy floated a Request for Information (RFI) for 57 combat jets at a price of nearly Rs 50,000 crore, after clarifying that the indigenous LCA Navy is far from being ready. Four companies including Boeing and Lockheed responded to the RFI. This is the fourth meeting between the two countries since the constitution of the Joint Working Group on Aircraft Carrier Technology Cooperation in January 2015. In an earlier visit, the US team also inspected Indian Navy's upcoming aircraft carrier Vikrant, which is under construction at the Cochin Shipyard.

At the concluding session of the working group's meeting here on Friday discussed plans for future co-operation under various aspects of aircraft carrier technology such as design optimisation, construction philosophy, trials procedure and project management. A joint statement was also signed. The meeting was chaired by Vice Admiral DM Deshpande, controller warship production and acquisition, and Rear Admiral Brian Antonio, program executive officer aircraft carriers. The two sides decided to meet again after six months to narrow down the areas of cooperation further. Indian Navy currently operates only one aircraft carrier and a second one is being built. But more carriers are required to protect 18 choke points in the Indian Ocean region where China is flexing muscles increasingly.

[Rishi_Tri]

Indo-US navy meet for futuristic aircraft carrier
http://www.deccanherald.com/content/640 ... istic.html

Hm... What technology is not available? Pretty sure BARC has a version or blue prints of a reactor to power AC ready. Building the AC itself is going to take 10 yrs plus, so why not build the nuclear reactors. Something fishy.

Are the Amrikans saying, we shall give EMALS only for non nuclear reactor AC. Very much possible, else this AC shall become the true competition to Ford. Or it becomes military nuclear cooperation.

[NRao]

Key take aways:

At the concluding session of the working group's meeting here on Friday discussed plans for future co-operation under various aspects of aircraft carrier technology such as design optimisation, construction philosophy, trials procedure and project management.

And certification of the Vikrant.

[Rakesh]

Hm... What technology is not available? Pretty sure BARC has a version or blue prints of a reactor to power AC ready. Building the AC itself is going to take 10 yrs plus, so why not build the nuclear reactors. Something fishy.

Do you have a source that BARC has blue prints of a reactor ready to power an aircraft carrier? If going by the public statements, they have nothing now and will take 10 - 15 years to design & construct an appropriate one. You cannot build an aircraft carrier and develop a nuclear reactor alongside it. A reactor has to be designed, tested and then a vessel built for it. The vessel design has to be frozen. And only then can construction of the vessel begin.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arihant-class_submarine
Refer to the Arihant's nuclear reactor (from wiki chacha) --> "The miniaturized version of the reactor was designed and built by the Bhabha Atomic Research Centre (BARC) at the Indira Gandhi Centre for Atomic Research (IGCAR) in Kalpakkam. It included a 42-metre (138 ft) section of the submarine's pressure hull containing the shielding tank with water and the reactor, a control room, as well as an auxiliary control room for monitoring safety parameters. The prototype reactor became critical on 11 November 2003 and was declared operational on 22 September 2006. Successful operation of the prototype for three years enabled the production version of the reactor for Arihant. The reactor subsystems were tested at the Machinery Test Center in Visakhapatnam."

So lay down the keel for Vishal now (non-nuclear powered and thank goodness for that! No influencing Alaska!) and she will be ready for carrier ops by 2030. If BARC and the Indian Navy collaborate together (basically provide the funds) and design and build a reactor using 2018 as a starting point, the earliest could be 2028 when the reactor development is complete. You lay a keel for a third carrier (call her Viraat) at that point and the third vessel will be ready 10 years later.

Are the Amrikans saying, we shall give EMALS only for non nuclear reactor AC. Very much possible, else this AC shall become the true competition to Ford. Or it becomes military nuclear cooperation.

LOL! The Americans are masters of carrier design and have decades of operating experience behind them. The Ford Class is the latest and greatest example of that. The last thing they are worried about is the Indian Naval Design Bureau upstarting them with a revolutionary carrier design.

[Philip]

...and the aircraft to go with it.Given our state of finance and elections due,huge dinosaur sized projects may either be deferred or shafted.Stated IN priorities are subs,helos,MCM vessels,etc.(NS).

Therefore the IN must as I said have a Plan B if it truly wants a 3rd CV in the next decade. A second sister ship to the Vikrant-2 with some design improvements like bigger lifts,B-8 SAM's,perhaps BMos-L too and stretched to about 50K t if poss.This may get approved and could be built faster as well to arrive between 2025-2027.Larger lifts would allow the deferment of choosing the aircraft 2-3 years before the carrier is commissioned.Evaluation process could start in 2020+.

If "only 65K/EMALS or bust " is the IN's credo,then it must plan to beef up other assets substantially like subs and LRMP aircraft/Backfires-at least 8-12, to sanitise the IOR and ICS ops too with super/hypersonic missiles like BMos,Nirbhay,etc. These will operate from our mainland and islands.The two med CVs and a strong land-based LRMP/strike air complement should be able to do the biz v.effectively from 2020+ onwards.

By around 2025 the IN may get the green light for the 65K CV. By then if Plan B had been approved, IAC-2 would be well under construction and may have even been launched,an ideal time for the larger CV'-s keel to be laid. Alternatively if the IN wants no sister ship to the Vikrant-2, then the 65K CV if started in the next decade would arrive only post 2030,more likely 2035.

[chola]

The chinis will have EMALS on their conventional Type 002 carrier (read post in chini mil thread.) It is not tied to a nuclear reactor.

I believe we have all the prerequisites to design and build a 65K ton carrier now. It is just funding. If the US is giving us cutting edge EMALS and AAG we have to take advantage of it. This is groundbreaking stuff that can change the trajectory of the navy.

[Philip]

....after the subs,helos etc. arrive.Or else increase the def budget to 2.5% right now.

[Rakesh]

Are America and India Building an 'Aircraft Carrier' Alliance?
http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-bu ... ?page=show

President Trump himself has repeatedly criticized EMALS. The first time came when the American president recounted a conversation he had with a sailor to Time magazine back in May. According to Trump, the sailor told him the EMALS wasn’t working as well as previous steam systems. “It sounded bad to me. Digital. They have digital. What is digital?,” Trump asked during the interview. “And it’s very complicated. You have to be Albert Einstein to figure it out. And I said — and now they want to buy more aircraft carriers. I said what system are you going to be — ‘Sir, we’re staying with digital.’ I said no you’re not. You going to goddamned steam, the digital costs hundreds of millions of dollars more money and it’s no good.”

Despite his personal hesitations about the launch system, Trump is likely to favor the sale to India as he has consistently promoted increasing American arms sales abroad. This has been especially true during the president’s current trip to Asia when Trump has called on Japan and South Korea to purchase more American-made systems.

[Rakesh]

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/936536636111831040 --> India's 2nd indigenous aircraft carrier IAC-2 will be a conventionally powered 65,000 ton flat-top CATOBAR vessel, with either EMALS or SteamCat & AAG

[chola]

Kind of amateurish CG. But the message is good. The 65K ton carriage is still a go! Nuke or conventional, steam or EMALS doesn’t matter. As long as we go for a CATOBAR then we will be relevant in the carrier space going forward!

[arun]

X Posted from the Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016 thread.

THE AIRCRAFT CARRIER IN INDIAN NAVAL DOCTRINE : Assessing the Likely Usefulness of the Flattop in an Indo-Pakistani War Scenario :

US Naval War College

[NRao]

NAVY DOGFIGHT BEGINS: India Opens Talks With Boeing & Dassault

The Indian Navy has officially opened vendor discussions with Boeing Defense and Dassault Aviation under its most ambitious current aviation thrust, a quest for 57 multirole fighters to operate off its future aircraft carriers. Livefist can confirm that while the navy did receive four responses in response to its call for information last year, only two are being regarded as ‘serious contenders’.

...........................................

As projected here on Livefist before, the contest is progressing as a direct face-off between Boeing’s F/A-18 Block III Super Hornet and a modified version of Dassault’s Rafale M F3R standard.

[chola]

Oh come on! Every time I see the Vikrant thread pop up to the top of the list I get my hopes up for actual news on the Vikrant! Instead, I get another analysis piece on the 57 RFI.

Our carrier program hits these doldrums where for months we get no news at all. We are being eclipsed as the Asia’s pre-eminent carrier power by Cheen before our very eyes as they are constantly in the media’s eye.

1) their Type 001A will be in sea trial in soon, there are constant pictures and tweets from American, French and Japanese watchers. At this moment even as we speak:
https://mobile.twitter.com/OedoSoldier/status/950639957214838784

(Translated from Japanese) Accommodation ship has arrived meaning CV-17's sea trials are imminent.

The Vikrant and its progress? absolute silence.

2) Their CATOBAR had begun construction last year last: https://thediplomat.com/2018/01/china-kicks-off-construction-of-new-supercarrier/

Shanghai Jiangnan Shipyard Group reportedly received the go-ahead for the construction of the new supercarrier in March 2017.
...
Initial work on China’s second domestically designed carrier (and third carrier overall), the 85,000-100,000 ton Type 002 (CV 18), purportedly began in February 2016

Our Vishal/IACII? All we get is a story every two months of the Navy bringing forth their 65K ton carrier plan and MoD rejecting it.

3) Even their goddam Russian carrier is far more active than our goddam Russian carrier! When the Varyag is not doing live fire exercises in the Bohai sea, in front of Amreeki forces off Korea, it is steaming around and bullying Taiwan.
Just last week, the Liaoning and its BG sailed through the Taiwan Strait again.
http://www.atimes.com/article/chinese-carrier-spotted-waters-near-taiwan/

The Vikramaditya? Absolute silence since Malabar in July of last year.

[NRao]

Rather dated, Nov 22, 2017. But number of nuggets (may need to move this to an appropriate thread).

Boeing Pitches Advanced Super Hornet For India Fighter Deal

Shiv Aroor!!!! In AWST.

Combat jet season in India has begun anew. With a deal for Dassault fighters finalized, the nation is back in the hunt for a medium multirole combat aircraft to be made in India for its air force and potentially for export customers. Boeing Defense Space & Security has bided its time since the last contest collapsed in 2015, reemerging for another chance at selling its F/A-18 aircraft with a uniquely aggressive pitch that goes beyond this immediate competition.

Like Lockheed Martin, Saab and Dassault and Eurofighter, Boeing is offering to build a brand-new production line in India for its Advanced Super Hornet. But the company has also yoked the prospects of the F/A-18 in India to the country’s concept for a fifth-generation fighter jet—the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA)—currently in an early definition stage. An engineering and management development phase is expected to begin in 2017.

Boeing says it is in “multiple stakeholder discussions” with India’s defense ministry, air force and research and technology shop, to make the AMCA a seamless progression of a potential Indian-built F/A-18. Dan Gillian, Boeing’s vice president for the Super Hornet, laid out the company’s three-pronged pitch to a group of Indian journalists in St. Louis.

The idea starts with Boeing winning the right to build a Super Hornet production facility for the “Make-in-India Fighter contest” for the remaining medium multirole combat aircraft, which the country is likely to produce in the early 2020s. Boeing proposes that India use the same prospective facility to build and develop the AMCA for an early capability in the late 2020s.

The company is also making itself available as a technology partner on the AMCA program to help accelerate crucial development in stealth, supersonic weapons release, advanced networking and fusion, advanced integrated propulsion and flight control.

Finally, and significantly, Boeing and its Super Hornet partner GE Aviation have proposed to Indian agencies that the GE F414 enhanced performance engine be considered to power the AMCA, offering a substantive mode of commonality with the F/A-18 build program. The GE F414 engine was chosen to power India’s Tejas Mk.2 Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), though a contract has been stalled, among other things, by a lack of clarity on the requirement for the Mk.2. The Mk.2 is an upgraded version of the LCA that India’s Defense Research and Development Organization-led (DRDO) teams are developing without firm interest from the Indian air force.

There are significant hurdles and variables to address, however, chiefly the fact that the Make-In-India program for the moment specifically calls for a single-engine platform. While Boeing India President Pratyush Kumar believes a parallel line of interest is anticipated based on an internal assessment by the company that India will need 100-200 twin-engine fighters, there is no official word from the Indian defense ministry yet. In the event of a twin-engine contest, the airframer will have to convince the Indian government that adding an inventory type by building the Super Hornet makes more sense than building the Rafale, 36 of which India signed up for in flyaway condition earlier this year.

Plus, significant elements of the advanced F/A-18—including an increased thrust engine and conformal fuel tanks—are not programs of record yet. But Boeing believes they will be by the time the government makes a decision on which fighter it will build in India.

The AMCA, which has shifted shape a few times over the last few years, is by far the country’s most ambitious aircraft development program and is intended to be avowedly Indian. The priority of getting the smaller Tejas into squadron service with the air force has kept resources thin for the concept stealth jet program. With the defense ministry proclaiming more than once that the Indian Kaveri engine will power the AMCA, it remains unclear whether DRDO and the defense ministry will pursue a foreign engine partnership. Boeing’s decision to target the AMCA and not the Tejas, which has entered service with the air force, is significant.

“Our focus is now on a global base,” says Kumar, indicating that Boeing has already begun to expand its supplier base in the country beyond its 30 Tier-1 suppliers and 130 Tier-2 and 3 suppliers. Parts of the Apache, Chinook and F/A-18 are currently built by Indian private and state-owned companies.

Boeing’s pitch heats up a field of play that has already been stirred up aggressively. Lockheed Martin, which likely sees the Indian contest as a final chance to keep the F-16 fighter line alive, has offered to move production lock, stock, and barrel to India to service the huge existing Viper support requirement around the world. Saab has announced its offer of gallium-nitride radar technology to sweeten a deal to make the Gripen E in India.

And if India keeps its AMCA program on track, it will almost definitely mean that the country would truncate its separate fifth-generation fighter aircraft purchase of Russian T-50s. India and Russia continue to struggle through negotiations on a research and development contract for that joint-development effort.

[Philip]

Wby the pitch for Kzveri which does not have TVC? Surely the first prototypes cujld also test a tvc one.

[Nikhil T]

Aircraft carrier Vikrant to only be commissioned by 2020

NEW DELHI: The delay on part of Russia in supplying aviation items has impeded the commissioning of Indigenous Aircraft Carrier (IAC) Vikrant and the warship is expected to be commissioned by October 2020, a senior Navy official said today.

Vice Admiral Hari Kumar, the Controller of Personnel Services (CPS), said the Navy has had a dialogue with the Russians and the force is hoping to stick to the 2020 deadline now.

"The major reasons for this delay, from 2018 to 2020, is the delay in the (supply of) aviation items from Russia. Because of that we had to adjust our schedule to a certain extent," Kumar said.

The Navy has started receiving the aviation items, Commodore J Chowdhury, Principal Director (Naval Design) said.

"Hopefully, Russia will be sticking to the items committed to us," Chowdhury added.

Two years delay due to Russian sloppiness. Anyone know what these aviation items are? Guidance systems?

[chola]

Two years delay due to Russian sloppiness. Anyone know what these aviation items are? Guidance systems?

The whole arrest and recovery system among them — cables, hydraulics, the damping gear connected to the cables, the landing electronics that guides a plane down safely onto the stamp-sized deck — especially at night, blast shields(?), etc. Russia designed the whole aviation complex, everything that is needed to allow an aircraft to take off, land and recover.

[Rishi_Tri]

Not too bad. Means Vikrant should be ready by late this year or early next year for trials for commissioning to take place in 2020.

[NRao]

F-18 vs Rafale

[vasu raya]

^^^
Does this Stealth pod on the F-18 already exists or is a concept at this stage?

The RBE2 radar which allows the Rafale do terrain following, can be mounted in a pod so other aircraft can perform at par in TF mode? yeah, just the RBE2's TF mode no other modes are needed for the pod, how much ever it aids in miniaturization

[brar_w]

As long as it stays as useless as the current version (payload flexibility) it will for ever remain a concept.

[Austin]

Navy confident of commissioning aircraft carrier Vikrant in two years

After several delays, the Indian Navy is confident of commissioning Indigenous Aircraft Carrier (IAC-1) Vikrant, currently under construction at Kochi, by October 2020, a senior officer said on Friday.

“IAC-I is expected to join the Navy in October 2020. All trial schedules have been worked out. We are going to sign advanced contracts with Cochin Shipyard Limited very soon,” said Commodore J. Chowdhary, principal director of naval design. He was speaking at a media briefing on the Navy’s Republic Day contingents. The theme of this year’s Navy tableau is centred around a model of Vikrant being built at the shipyard.

The IAC-I project has been delayed due to hold-ups in procurement especially of 18 major equipment related to aviation complex, including the arrestor and the withstanding gear, from Russia, Cdre. Chowdhary said. “There were licencing issues which have been resolved.”

Sea trials

The carrier is likely to be handed over to the Navy by December 2018 after which it will be put through harbour and sea trials before commissioning.

Vikrant borrows its name from India’s first aircraft carrier, the 20,000-tonne INS Vikrant purchased from the U.K. India currently operates the 44,500-tonne INS Vikramaditya procured from Russia.

Like INS Vikramaditya, Vikrant too would employ the STOBAR (Short Take-Off But Arrested Recovery) mechanism with a ski-jump and arrestor cables to launch and recover aircraft.

It can operate 20 fighter jets and 10 other aircraft. The Mig-29K fighters currently in service with the Navy would also be on the deck of Vikrant.

Initially the plan was to have a mix of Mig-29K and the naval variant of the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft, Tejas.

The IAC-I project was approved by the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) in 2003 and the keel for the 260-metre ship was laid in 2009. The CCS had initially sanctioned ₹3,200 crore, which was subsequently revised to ₹19,341 crore.

In a 2016 report, the Comptroller and Auditor-General (CAG) said that the “delivery of the carrier with completion of all activities is likely to be achieved only by 2023.” But Navy officials stated that all issues have now been resolved and the ship would join the Navy in 2020.

The Navy has already set sights on the IAC-II, which it envisages to be conventionally powered and displace 65,000 tonnes with an advanced Catapult-based Aircraft Launch Mechanism (CATOBAR) similar to the U.S. Electro-Magnetic Aircraft Launch System (EMALS) for aircraft launch and recovery.

[vasu raya]

As long as it stays as useless as the current version (payload flexibility) it will for ever remain a concept.

can they not carry multiple units? atleast three.

[brar_w]

The bay offers no real flexibility for the US Navy or most nations looking at a decent payload. While it can carry 6 x Small Diameter Bombs and 2 AMRAAMs simultaneously, it can only cary 1x1000 lb JDAM and no Aim-120s. It is really a joke hence the USN was not even remotely interested and Boeing has subsequently dropped this idea.

[JTull]

I was looking at Bhuvan pictures of Cochin Shipyard and I can't see IAC berthed anywhere. It's clearly visible on Google and Bing maps. Has it been moved somewhere else recently?

[chola]

I was looking at Bhuvan pictures of Cochin Shipyard and I can't see IAC berthed anywhere. It's clearly visible on Google and Bing maps. Has it been moved somewhere else recently?

Really??? Can’t hide something that big unless you move it somewhere. Clandestine sea trials?!??

[Philip]

Go to Cochin, best way to find it!

[chola]

Finally some news on the Vikrant. Sort of.

https://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php/news/defence-news/2018/july-2018-navy-naval-defense-news/6365-india-s-defence-secretary-reviews-indigenous-aircraft-carrier-vikrant.html

India's Defence Secretary Reviews Indigenous Aircraft Carrier Vikrant

India's Indigenous Aircraft Carrier (IAC) Project was reviewed by Shri Sanjay Mitra, IAS, the Defence Secretary at Cochin Shipyard Limited (CSL) on 19 July 2018. He was accompanied by Vice Admiral Ajit Kumar, AVSM, VSM, Vice Chief of the Naval Staff, Vice Admiral D M Deshpande, AVSM, VSM, Controller Warship Production & Acquisition, ShriSatinder Pal Singh, IPS, Joint Secretary (Shipping) and other senior officers from the Indian Navy.

During the onboard visit, the Defence Secretary was given a first-hand briefing on the progress of IAC construction by Commodore Cyril Thomas, the Warship Production Superintendent. ShriMadhu S Nair, CMD,CSL, highlighted the shipyard’s focus on outfitting and trial activities as the project enters its final phase, and re-iterated the CSL’s commitment to meet the timelines for delivery of the ship.

The ship was launched in Aug 2013 and presently, the main propulsion plant, power generation equipment, deck machinery and auxiliary equipment have been installed and integrated on board. Outfitting of various aviation equipment, navigation and communication equipment, weapons and sensors are progressing. In-house trials of ship’s systems by the Carrier Acceptance & Trials Team have already commenced and the sea trials are expected to commence by early 2020.