Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Lalmohan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 13271
Joined: 30 Dec 2005 18:28

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Lalmohan » 31 May 2013 01:46

no sir, the basics are not the same
production engineering is a very complex art and science

abhik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2435
Joined: 02 Feb 2009 17:42

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby abhik » 31 May 2013 08:30

indranilroy wrote:So, prima-facie I support this project. Besides, it will be easier for the industry to start producing stuff for the BTT, before they graduate to LCA/AMCA etc.

So the industry will be ready to manufacture the LCA only after 10 years or so that they will take to start producing for the BTT?

member_26965
BRFite
Posts: 128
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby member_26965 » 31 May 2013 09:51

NRao wrote:While that is true, IIRC, the current problem with the IJT is related to the spin recovery parachute - my recollection is that they had not designed the AC for the chute 9or something like that). They have overcome the engine related problems - which put them back a year or so.


http://articles.economictimes.indiatime ... et-trainer - Aero India 2013:

The chief of air staff said that the HAL trainer is continuing to face engine troubles, with the Russia's NPO Saturn-made AL-55I engine currently cleared up to 100 hours only, as against the acceptable engine life expectancy of 1,200-1,500 hours. "Unless all these things happen, we cannot accept it as the intermediate jet trainer," Browne said.

vic
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2415
Joined: 19 May 2010 10:00

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby vic » 31 May 2013 15:36

So IAF does not like HTT-40 as it is costly and IJT as it is late. But IAF is ready to spend Rs. 2000 crore for importing additional Hawks for "flying display team".

Surya
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5038
Joined: 05 Mar 2001 12:31

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Surya » 01 Jun 2013 01:29

I think the time has come to look for stripped down Hawk for IJt

unless an IAF guy can explain to me why not?

The Al551 engine is pie in sky -


vic

then we have to decide not to have SKAT

if you want SKAT then Hawk is the best option

IJT will not be an option for years even if things went well

if IJT had flown with a tried and tested engine then yes

Lalmohan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 13271
Joined: 30 Dec 2005 18:28

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Lalmohan » 01 Jun 2013 01:49

silly question - but is adour too big for IJT?

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16238
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby NRao » 01 Jun 2013 02:00

ranji wrote:
NRao wrote:While that is true, IIRC, the current problem with the IJT is related to the spin recovery parachute - my recollection is that they had not designed the AC for the chute 9or something like that). They have overcome the engine related problems - which put them back a year or so.


http://articles.economictimes.indiatime ... et-trainer - Aero India 2013:

The chief of air staff said that the HAL trainer is continuing to face engine troubles, with the Russia's NPO Saturn-made AL-55I engine currently cleared up to 100 hours only, as against the acceptable engine life expectancy of 1,200-1,500 hours. "Unless all these things happen, we cannot accept it as the intermediate jet trainer," Browne said.


Oh dear. Not them again. Wonder if DRDO is influencing them. The sky has fallen. Suggest we get that French engine out of the cold storage.

member_26965
BRFite
Posts: 128
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby member_26965 » 01 Jun 2013 06:32

As I understand from the FI owner on chat, it was IAF which insisted on Al-55I and GE-414. (for GE-414 http://frontierindia.net/error-404-perf ... -not-found) .

Al-55I was chosen as Al-31 is selected for Su-30 MKI. IAF knew AL-55I was a development engine. Now, IAF turns back on DRDO and HAl and blames them.

eklavya
BRFite
Posts: 1779
Joined: 16 Nov 2004 23:57

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby eklavya » 02 Jun 2013 01:12

NDTV:

Indian Air Force inducts Swiss basic trainer aircraft Pilatus PC-7 MK II


Indian Air Force inducts Swiss basic trainer aircraft Pilatus PC-7 MK II
Press Trust of India | Updated: May 31, 2013 20:10 IST

Hyderabad: The IAF training academy at Dundigal today witnessed the induction of basic trainer aircraft Pilatus, PC-7 Mk-II, in the Air Force.

Union Minister of State for Defence Jitendra Singh unveiled the Swiss made aircraft at a ceremony in Hyderabad.

Led by Group Captain R S Nandedkar, three PC-7 MK II aircraft put up an air display for dignitaries, including Chief Secretary Andhra Pradesh P K Mohanty, Swiss ambassador Linus Van Castelmur and Air Officer Commanding-in-Chief, Training Command Air Marshal Rajinder Singh.

Jitendra Singh was flown on the aircraft on a sortie.

This marked the first formal flight of the trainer aircraft at the Air Force academy in Dundigal, Hyderabad.

"The induction of PC-7 MK II as basic trainer aircraft into IAF is a very important landmark in our nation's quest to modernise armed forces," the minister said.

"Pilatus will prove to be the ideal platform that will train ab-initio trainees about nuances of basic flying and expose them to modern avionics and navigation aids. It will provide a solid foundation and facilitate a seamless transition from ab-initio stage through intermediate and advanced stages into full-fledged operational flying for all streams," Air Chief Marshal N A K Browne said.

The aircraft would be used for basic training of all IAF pilots, in addition to those of the Indian Navy and the Coast Guard. Until recently, this role was performed by the reliable but ageing workhorse, HJT-16 Kiran aircraft.

A comprehensive infrastructure upgrade is already underway at the Air Force academy which will receive a total of 75 aircraft from Pilatus, Switzerland.

The government approved the procurement of the aircraft in May last year. The first batch arrived at the academy in February as a part of an accelerated induction plan. The first batch of flight cadets will start training from July onwards.

"These aircraft will remain with us for the next 30 to 40 years. We signed a contract (deal for aircraft supply) in May last year and we already have 12 aircraft. By the time we start the first course in July, we will have 14 aircraft. And by this year end, we will have 30 aircraft in the academy. All the 75 aircraft will be with us by the end of August, 2015," Browne told reporters.

He said the induction of C-17 aircraft from the US will take place next month and the first aircraft is scheduled to arrive on June 17.

"At the end of July we will have three C-17 aircraft, which is a strategic aircraft with almost double the capacity of Ilyushin Il-76. Intense negotiations are on for mid-air flight refuelling aircraft, while negotiations are already over for the C-130J transport aircraft from the US," he said.

"We are also in the process of finalising heavy-lift helicopters from Boeing and also to induct Apache attack helicopters. Negotiations on the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft deal with French Rafale is progressing on track.

These things have been moving smoothly and most of these, we hope to finalise by September or October," he said.


To a query on the Pilatus deal, Browne said there is a requirement of close to 173 trainer aircraft.

"Right now, the deal with Pilatus is for 75 aircraft. We have exercised an offset clause option for 37 more aircraft and that is part of the first contract. The matter is now with the Ministry of Defence," he said.

The government has also sanctioned 20 Hawk aircraft to enable the IAF's Surya Kiran aerobatics team to take up aerobatic displays once again, Browne said.


The Minister said, "We have no issues at all in procurement for defence equipment and there is complete transparency."

He said the Defence Procurement Policy (DPP) is under modification and the DPP-2013 will be a historic step for the Indian defence industry.

The Light Combat Aircraft project has been progressing slowly, he said, adding, "we expect to get Initial Operational Clearance 2 (IOC-2) version of LCA by November."

After the final operational clearance, the LCA will also be inducted into IAF by the end of next year.


eklavya
BRFite
Posts: 1779
Joined: 16 Nov 2004 23:57

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby eklavya » 02 Jun 2013 01:30

Image

agupta
BRFite
Posts: 190
Joined: 13 Oct 1999 11:31

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby agupta » 02 Jun 2013 06:40

ranji wrote:As I understand from the FI owner on chat, it was IAF which insisted on Al-55I and GE-414. (for GE-414 http://frontierindia.net/error-404-perf ... -not-found) .

Al-55I was chosen as Al-31 is selected for Su-30 MKI. IAF knew AL-55I was a development engine. Now, IAF turns back on DRDO and HAl and blames them.



Hi ranji

Could you please elaborate on this ? Any published evidence that IAF drove ( as opposed to agreed to, or approved a proposal to) this change ? Not familiar either with what "FI owner on chat" means - or credibility to attach to it

vic
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2415
Joined: 19 May 2010 10:00

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby vic » 02 Jun 2013 09:00

IAF ka dil Mange import and more import!

rajanb
BRFite
Posts: 1947
Joined: 03 Feb 2011 16:56

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby rajanb » 02 Jun 2013 09:42

agupta wrote:
ranji wrote:As I understand from the FI owner on chat, it was IAF which insisted on Al-55I and GE-414. (for GE-414 http://frontierindia.net/error-404-perf ... -not-found) .

Al-55I was chosen as Al-31 is selected for Su-30 MKI. IAF knew AL-55I was a development engine. Now, IAF turns back on DRDO and HAl and blames them.



Hi ranji

Could you please elaborate on this ? Any published evidence that IAF drove ( as opposed to agreed to, or approved a proposal to) this change ? Not familiar either with what "FI owner on chat" means - or credibility to attach to it


In FI ownere is FI=Frontier India?

member_26965
BRFite
Posts: 128
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby member_26965 » 02 Jun 2013 10:31

Yes Sir.

No sir,

there is no published sources. IAF chooses its engines. It is a general fact. If you or are referring to credibility etc., i will refrain from arguments. Everyone has an opinion.

member_26622
BRFite
Posts: 537
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby member_26622 » 02 Jun 2013 14:39

vic wrote:IAF ka dil Mange import and more import!

If IAF is determined to use only the BEST foreign stuff (current favorite European maal, known for corrupt practices) then why don't we outsource IAF to USAF itself? European stuff does not come close to the US goodies.

We will get the best planes, best commanders, best pilots...Also, how about Barack Obama for Manmohan?

Did Mr. BROWNE THINK OF THE MINDSET HE WILL BE INGRAINING IN IAF TRAINEE PILOTS FOR NEXT 37 YEARS? Trained on Swiss Pilatus and then on British Hawks. They will never sit in a Desi plane...mentally handicapped from the start itself like our Army is for Russian stuff today.

Reminds me of the Pepsi's new generation ad campaigns....Catch them young and keep them forever!

eklavya
BRFite
Posts: 1779
Joined: 16 Nov 2004 23:57

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby eklavya » 02 Jun 2013 15:26

nik wrote:They will never sit in a Desi plane...mentally handicapped from the start


Complete and utter nonsense.

eklavya
BRFite
Posts: 1779
Joined: 16 Nov 2004 23:57

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby eklavya » 02 Jun 2013 15:36

vic wrote:IAF ka dil Mange import and more import!


DRDO/HAL ka dil Mange import and more import, and pass off as Made in India. After all, they don't have to fight any war.

eklavya
BRFite
Posts: 1779
Joined: 16 Nov 2004 23:57

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby eklavya » 02 Jun 2013 15:52

ranji wrote:Yes Sir.

No sir,

there is no published sources. IAF chooses its engines. It is a general fact. If you or are referring to credibility etc., i will refrain from arguments. Everyone has an opinion.


There are published sources that says HAL selected the Al-55I, so your statement has no credibility. As the designer and the manufacturer of the HJT-36, HAL is responsible for what goes into the aircraft. This pathetic attempt to pass the buck speaks volumes.

NPO "SATURN" > NEWS
As a reminder, the AL-55I engine was designed and developed on the order of HAL (Hindustan Aeronautic Ltd., India) in the frame of the implementation of an international contract signed with FSUC Rosoboronexport on 29.06.2005. NPO Saturn had emerged as the first Russian company winning an order for a full-scale development of an aircraft engine for the needs of a foreign state.


HJT-36 Sitara Intermediate Jet Trainer, India
In the summer of 2004, Hindustan Aeronautics announced the selection of the Saturn AL-55 turbofan engine rated at 16.68kN for the production series intermediate jet trainer.


Russian Engine AL-551 Proves Satisfactory For Homegrown HJT-16 Trainer Aircraft
The AL-551 engine is being developed by NPO Saturn on order from HAL under a contract that came into force in August 2005.


Russia again demands more money
NPO-Saturn claims that it has spent more time and money on developing the AL-55I engine than it had bargained for, and that manufacturing technology will only be transferred to India if HAL pays NPO-Saturn an extra US $64 million, over and above the contracted amount. The Russian company had beaten out French engine-maker Snecma in 2005, in the US $350 million contract to design the AL-55I engine and transfer technology to build it in India.

HAL’s design chief is in Moscow trying --- so far unsuccessfully to persuade NPO-Saturn to lower its demands.

Sources in HAL, however, point out that all these issues had been settled as a part of the original contract between HAL and NPO-Saturn. Adding to Indian frustration is the role of Russia’s state-owned arms agency, Rosoboronexport, which is telling HAL that it should pay up quietly.

But the biggest reason for paying up quietly is that the IJT programme --- which has already waited three years for this engine --- will face a delay of several more years if it launches an international search for another engine.

While waiting for the AL-55I engine to be developed, India has flown the IJT with an interim engine, the French Larzac power plant, which was never powerful enough for the Sitara. The AL-55I generates 20% more power than the Larzac and also consumes appreciably less fuel per flying hour.

member_26965
BRFite
Posts: 128
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby member_26965 » 02 Jun 2013 16:27

Your sources state the obvious. HAL does order engine as it is the production agency. It says nothing about the pre selection procedures. Your negative arguments are self evident.

eklavya
BRFite
Posts: 1779
Joined: 16 Nov 2004 23:57

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby eklavya » 02 Jun 2013 16:48

ranji wrote:Your sources state the obvious. HAL does order engine as it is the production agency. It says nothing about the pre selection procedures. Your negative arguments are self evident.


HAL is the designer of the HJT-36. There is no way the design agency can evade responsibility for the poor performance of the engine they selected and signed a contract for 8 years ago.

member_26965
BRFite
Posts: 128
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby member_26965 » 02 Jun 2013 16:55

Your argument is good.

eklavya
BRFite
Posts: 1779
Joined: 16 Nov 2004 23:57

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby eklavya » 02 Jun 2013 17:04

ranji wrote:Your argument is good.


IAF prepares the Air Staff Requirement. If HAL accepts the ASR, it is responsible for delivering an aircraft that meets the ASR. HAL, as the aircraft designer and manufacturer, is responsible for the contract that they signed with the engine supplier. Its absurd to suggest otherwise.

member_26965
BRFite
Posts: 128
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby member_26965 » 02 Jun 2013 17:14

I like your argument and have understood your point. Then there is a counterpoint which I heard else where and like it too. May be more points will come out.

vic
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2415
Joined: 19 May 2010 10:00

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby vic » 02 Jun 2013 20:23

I think it is a good idea to disband the SDRE IAF. We must have tall handsome blond Caucasian from USA & Europe to man the airforce. If there are any vacancies then we can get he Chinese to do the remaining jobs.

Now on next issue if the Newly developed Al-55 engines require inspection after 100 hours then it is not a big issue. Most of the aircraft of Chinese Airforce PLAAF are worse but still they are ones to sending our politicians scooting for cover every time.

Apna R&D ka saath = Jagannath.

eklavya
BRFite
Posts: 1779
Joined: 16 Nov 2004 23:57

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby eklavya » 02 Jun 2013 21:46

vic wrote:I think it is a good idea to disband the SDRE IAF. We must have tall handsome blond Caucasian from USA & Europe to man the airforce. If there are any vacancies then we can get he Chinese to do the remaining jobs.


Complete and utter nonsense.

eklavya
BRFite
Posts: 1779
Joined: 16 Nov 2004 23:57

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby eklavya » 02 Jun 2013 21:57

vic wrote:Now on next issue if the Newly developed Al-55 engines require inspection after 100 hours then it is not a big issue. Most of the aircraft of Chinese Airforce PLAAF are worse but still they are ones to sending our politicians scooting for cover every time.


Is that your best argument for the IAF accepting sub-standard engines imported by HAL? That the PLAAF has to make do with sub-standard domestically sourced engines.

You are embarrassing yourself with such inane comments.

In any case, the PLAAF Su-30s and the J-10 all fly on Russian engines.

vic wrote:Apna R&D ka saath = Jagannath.


So sub-standard engine imported by HAL from Russia is "Apna R&D" :lol:

Its good to know that HAL has such strong family feeling for "Apna" NPO SATURN

member_26965
BRFite
Posts: 128
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby member_26965 » 03 Jun 2013 07:36

Why blame IAF? Look at our biggest exports - software. Intel, UNIX, IBM, AMD, oracle, MS, Unix, etc etc are foreign. We are good collies while using them. Inventing Indians always go abroad. We post in Linkedin, how many post in Apana Circle? There are few innovations in India too and some purchased by foreigners. What is wrong with Air Force coolies?

Kersi D
BRFite
Posts: 1387
Joined: 20 Sep 2000 11:31

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Kersi D » 03 Jun 2013 09:43

nik wrote:
vic wrote:IAF ka dil Mange import and more import!

If IAF is determined to use only the BEST foreign stuff (current favorite European maal, known for corrupt practices) then why don't we outsource IAF to USAF itself? European stuff does not come close to the US goodies.

We will get the best planes, best commanders, best pilots...Also, how about Barack Obama for Manmohan?

Did Mr. BROWNE THINK OF THE MINDSET HE WILL BE INGRAINING IN IAF TRAINEE PILOTS FOR NEXT 37 YEARS? Trained on Swiss Pilatus and then on British Hawks. They will never sit in a Desi plane...mentally handicapped from the start itself like our Army is for Russian stuff today.

Reminds me of the Pepsi's new generation ad campaigns....Catch them young and keep them forever!


Good Observation !!

But :(( :(( :(( :((

Surya
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5038
Joined: 05 Mar 2001 12:31

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Surya » 03 Jun 2013 18:10

Did Mr. BROWNE THINK OF THE MINDSET HE WILL BE INGRAINING IN IAF TRAINEE PILOTS FOR NEXT 37 YEARS? Trained on Swiss Pilatus and then on British Hawks. They will never sit in a Desi plane...mentally handicapped from the start itself like our Army is for Russian stuff today.


while extreme positions are skewing the discussion there is something to be said for this line

Its worthy of a thread on its own

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 17940
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Karan M » 03 Jun 2013 21:49

KrishnaK wrote:
Says V K Mittal, a former senior scientist with the agency, “DRDO technology is almost two decades old. Two projects, namely Samyukta and Sangraha electronic warfare equipment, were partially inducted in the armed forces, but users felt these were outdated and more expensive than the latest technology available.”

First time I've read of this.


Its the first time you are hearing of this, because it has always been the leitmotif of a farcical media, which pretends to be doing journalism, but instead makes stuff up.

So you have excerpts from some watchdog trotted out, claims of a disgruntled insider etc - but no attempt to actually take DRDO or the actual user's perception.
No detailed technological comparison either. Because these will rapidly sink the claims of the projects being a) partially inducted b ) user disinterest and c) being behind the technology available.

Lets take Samyukta. This is what was directly noted in July 2012 by none other than the [b] Commandant, Military College of Telecommunication and Engineering, Lt Gen. Sharma.

What are the major changes that have happened in the electronic warfare (EW) in the last five years? Where exactly are we headed in this area?
We have EW equipment which has been indigenously manufactured by Bharat Electronics Limited (BEL) on which training is being given in addition to the new equipment which is on its way from Israel. Samyukta system by BEL is state-of-the–art equipment and has already been fielded in one of the groups. We also have simulators on which training is imparted. An inter-services course is also conducted by each service in rotation every year. The recent advancement in EW is that now the same equipment is able to address a large number of frequencies for which separate equipments were required earlier. Today, we have the advanced equipment which can take care of a larger portion of the spectrum and is more potent. These systems can also take care of the anti-ECCM (electronic counter counter-measures) techniques adopted by the adversaries like frequency hopping etc.


http://forceindia.net/ForceIndiaJuly201 ... view9.aspx

Note, the Samyukta equipment consists of both com and non com segments. One was developed before the other & deliveries started. And its success can also be understood from the fact that the Army has placed follow on indents for development of similar systems for specific terrain on DRDO & its partners!

Next, Sangraha, the "partially inducted" etc system. Lets have a look at the "partial orders" placed, shall we?
http://frontierindia.net/sangraha-for-indian-navy

15 KITE Electronic Support Measures (ESM) system have been inducted in service on Kamov and Chetak Helicopters. Additional 47 KITE systems are in order and in various levels of production and integration. EAGLE ESM systems have been installed on Dornier aircraft and 8 more systems have been ordered. First 5 HOMI systems built by Bharat Electronics Limited (BEL) have been installed on TU-142 aircraft and additional orders are being processed. 2 PORPOISE ESM systems have been installed in EKM Submarines and additional 11 systems have been ordered. ELLORA system built by BEL has been installed on INS Beas. Three more ships of INS Beas class and three ships of P-17 class will be equipped with ELLORA.


Such huge efforts invariably involve teething issues, which are also resolved. For instance, the ESM systems developed for Light Aircraft faced challenges & were then sought to be improved by fitting additional antenna and upgraded software/algorithms to generate better DF accuracy. The scale of the orders placed though is proof enough of what the Navy thought of the potential of the system

And the Navy clearly thinks enough of Sangraha developed ESM suite to order it for their P8I's as well.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-lXmyQg0MM8k/U ... fing-3.jpg
Look at point 3. Thats the ESM suite plus the fingerprinting system.
A derivative of the Sangraha developed tech.

Furthermore, lets look at post Sangraha - whats going on, take a look at Varuna.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-kyU4KzEQrLw/T ... C00667.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-2Y23fnZnUyI/U ... PSES-2.jpg

Note the reference to exotic radars e.g. LPI. The integrated RFPS is again something developed in parallel with Sangraha and now rolled out across platforms.

And this, from 2012.

http://pib.nic.in/newsite/efeatures.aspx?relid=94689
Completion and acceptance of Varuna, a modern ESM system for Navy with capability to intercept and process all modern radars including LPI radars was another step in achieving self-reliance in the field of Electronic Warfare.


Fact of the matter is that in our missile and electronics program, India has made great strides, thanks purely due to diligence and constant upgrades of earlier designs, new designs introduced and so forth. India started from a relatively modest Prithvi, based off of TDs (Devil, Valiant etc) and ended up today with Agni-5. Similarly, the basic Indra-1 design of the late 80's sparked off a process, by which India is testing & qualifying AESA radars of its own design today. Similarly, our other electronics programs (EW/ESM/Communication, SONARS) have been through their own cycle of development, testing and induction, with newer designs constantly being turned out.

Net, while you have a handful of folks who will believe what a worthless media trots out as gospel & may not seek to do their own research into seeing what has gone on & succeeded in Indian R&D. That does not however mean that the state of affairs is anywhere as bleak as portrayed. Despite the GOI, handful of technocratic organizations still run a fair ship and remain insulated from (most) of the rot. This is not to say that improvements cannot and should not be made, for instance the private sector deserves a far greater say in production of these systems, but its ironic that the attacks on the Indian R&D establishment usually target those very success stories that prove the capability of the private sector, public private partnerships and that even in high technology, India can shake off the yoke of imports.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 17940
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Karan M » 03 Jun 2013 22:18

agupta wrote:
ranji wrote:As I understand from the FI owner on chat, it was IAF which insisted on Al-55I and GE-414. (for GE-414 http://frontierindia.net/error-404-perf ... -not-found) .

Al-55I was chosen as Al-31 is selected for Su-30 MKI. IAF knew AL-55I was a development engine. Now, IAF turns back on DRDO and HAl and blames them.



Hi ranji

Could you please elaborate on this ? Any published evidence that IAF drove ( as opposed to agreed to, or approved a proposal to) this change ? Not familiar either with what "FI owner on chat" means - or credibility to attach to it


The engine is just one of the many problems that has dogged the IJT, while it is currently the largest sticking point (and arguably the achilles heel of the program), the bigger issue is & has been the near complete absence of HAL in the aircraft-of-its-own manufacturing space. Successive leaders at HAL treated the LCA as "somebody else's baby" and hence the learnings from that program have also been restricted to specific groups. Only with the AURDC have some beginnings been made in understanding and delivering on the develop-test-qualify cycle. With such a huge lag between their last program, and the half hearted assistance to the LCA (not quite treating it as it the ticket to their future, which it is), HAL tends to consistently go for penny-wise pound-foolish decisions which tend to dog it in the longer run. Whether it be underfunding/underesourcing LCA subsystems (and having their development revert to DRDO and consequently, their manufacture can now go to other manufacturers) or getting into hot water over playing an extended game of ping pong over the manufacturing side of things with the LCA (and then getting the bad PR)...or choosing an unproven russian engine because it ostensibly came in cheaper and offered long term commonality (yet to be proven in terms of significant cost savings) over a slightly underpowered but "available" French one. Bottomline, the problems with HAL and by extension the IJT, are symptomatic of the run by diktat, we will see later culture fostered by the MOD mandarins on making the "safe", "cheap" decision at the cost of program speed or long term success.

vasu raya
BRFite
Posts: 1631
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby vasu raya » 03 Jun 2013 23:06

On the anniversary of pilot Ajay Ahuja, can we see a program from ARDE on the lines of AERCAB, here is an excerpt,

Late in the Vietnam War the USAF and US Navy became concerned about its pilots ejecting over hostile territory and those pilots either being captured or killed and the losses in men and aircraft in attempts to rescue them. Both services began a program titled Air Crew Escape/Rescue Capability or Aerial Escape and Rescue Capability (AERCAB) ejection seats (both terms have been used by the US military and defence industry), where after the pilot ejected, the ejection seat would fly him to a location far enough away from where he ejected to where he could safely be picked up. A Rogallo wing design by Bell Systems; a gyrocopter design by Kaman Aircraft; and a mini-conventional fixed wing aircraft employing a Princeton Wing (i.e. a wing made of flexible material that rolls out then becomes rigid by means of internal struts or supports etc. deploying) by Fairchild Hiller. All three after ejection would be propelled by small turbojet engine developed for target drones.


recently there was news of a target drone in development by ADE which suggests that the tech is there. ARDE would have to package the drone's components into its ejection seat. This development track is de-linked from the Tejas program.

vic
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2415
Joined: 19 May 2010 10:00

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby vic » 04 Jun 2013 13:04

Re Karan

The fact that HAL has very limited exposure to indigenous development makes it all the more necessary to encourage it to work on BTT, IJT & CAT/AJT. Further HAL should be headed by either Retd IAF or ADA Head but HAL being a Cash how is headed by Babu from ONGC. The mandate of Babu Head is same as the mandate of Saint and Mumble Singh i.e. to say do nothing and encourage imports.

The recent attacks on DRDO, HAL etc seem to be lead by MRCA-Rafale and Swiss PC-7 lobby.

member_26965
BRFite
Posts: 128
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby member_26965 » 04 Jun 2013 14:57

Indian military Aero Engine market worth approx $ 42.86 billion in next 20 years

Read more: http://frontierindia.net/indian-militar ... z2VEuZPyKi

HAL is gearing for Indian aero engine development

Will
BRFite
Posts: 639
Joined: 28 Apr 2011 11:27

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Will » 04 Jun 2013 18:49

IAF ka dil Mange import and more import!
If IAF is determined to use only the BEST foreign stuff (current favorite European maal, known for corrupt practices) then why don't we outsource IAF to USAF itself? European stuff does not come close to the US goodies.

We will get the best planes, best commanders, best pilots...Also, how about Barack Obama for Manmohan?

Did Mr. BROWNE THINK OF THE MINDSET HE WILL BE INGRAINING IN IAF TRAINEE PILOTS FOR NEXT 37 YEARS? Trained on Swiss Pilatus and then on British Hawks. They will never sit in a Desi plane...mentally handicapped from the start itself like our Army is for Russian stuff today.

Reminds me of the Pepsi's new generation ad campaigns....Catch them young and keep them forever!


The IAF going in for the Pilatus is nothing wrong. The IAF needed basic trainers yesterday.Remember that they even had to disband the Surya Kirans to use the planes for training. No way can the IAF wait for a few more years till HAL "develops" one. A half baked fighter like the JF-17 could be acceptable in an airforce but safety and a strong base for rookie pilots cant be ignored.

I am all for indigenous production but expecting HAL to "do" it suddenly and within a fixed timeframe? Well... there is a lot left to be said about that....

HAL is just a lumbering elephant like most PSU's. For it to even begin to meet expectations of indigenous development it needs massive restructuring with a lot of flab to be cut. HAL should borrow a leaf out of ISRO's book where ISRO is going to handover production to private industries while ISRO concentrates on cutting edge technologies.

bmallick
BRFite
Posts: 303
Joined: 05 Jun 2010 20:28

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby bmallick » 05 Jun 2013 17:26

Image

This picture was on Ajai Shukla's blog, with the news of Avinash Chander being named DRDO chief.

Two questions:

1. Is the Astra the old model?

2. On the extreme right of the picture, there is a picture of a fighter aircraft with a single intake below. Which aircraft is that? Have never seen that one before.

prabhug
BRFite
Posts: 173
Joined: 05 Dec 2008 14:31

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby prabhug » 05 Jun 2013 17:36

Looks like the new one.Old one had long and thin mid body wing

John
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2034
Joined: 03 Feb 2001 12:31

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby John » 05 Jun 2013 18:46

ranji wrote:there is no published sources. IAF chooses its engines. It is a general fact. If you or are referring to credibility etc., i will refrain from arguments. Everyone has an opinion.


We have discussed this topic to death, every analyst (even Russian) and IAF top brass was dumbfounded at HALs decision to go with NPO Saturn. Yes the engine was an issue but there are other issues' currently plaguing IJT:

Issues remain on controls, engines and the aircraft’s weight, stall and spin characteristics, Browne said.

abhik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2435
Joined: 02 Feb 2009 17:42

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby abhik » 05 Jun 2013 18:55

bmallick wrote:Two questions:

1. Is the Astra the old model?

2. On the extreme right of the picture, there is a picture of a fighter aircraft with a single intake below. Which aircraft is that? Have never seen that one before.

1)New one
2)prob. the MKI, only half of it is in the frame.

koti
BRFite
Posts: 1121
Joined: 09 Jul 2009 22:06
Location: Hyderabad, India

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby koti » 05 Jun 2013 19:14

^^Nope. It looks more like a Mig29 from the intake. But the nose painting looks funny.


Return to “Military Issues & History Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Kakarat, kashyapgv and 57 guests