Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions

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Philip
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Philip » 02 Feb 2012 09:49

Surya,look at the way in which Germany is subsidising Israeli Dolphin class German-built subs ,in an unspoken atonement for WW2 hangovers.Israelis now getting a 6th sub,even though the EU has been most critical of its policy towards the Palestinians.Indo-UK relations are generally excellent,esp. between individuals,the huge Indian diaspora there which is loyal and law-abiding,unlike some well known others.Would the criticism have been even a tenth in intensity if the winner had been the Gripen for example? Losing out to the French has been "the unkindest cut of all" in the eyes of the British (DC & co. that is).When you view the loss in the context of European financial profligacy and the manner in which Britain has been very conservative ,even punishing their loss-making bankers like Sir "Fred-the shred" Goodwin,former RBS chief who will now lose his knighthood,after being blackballed by St.Andrews -the mecca of golf,and threatened with the same by the Royal Society,one can understand DC's angst.Here is anintersting view on the subject with an Indian connection to it.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/mobile/co ... dda561ee5d

t is time for a review of our out-of-touch honours system

Published on 23 January 2012

Sir Tom Risk was awarded a knighthood on retiring from his position as Governor of the Bank of Scotland.

It recognised a distinguished career in this bank, and in other positions advising Scottish businesses, which left each enterprise in better health than when he took up each appointment.

My maternal grandfather was awarded his knighthood, in 1947, after British participation in the Indian Civil Service had ended. During his period of service, spent in the punishing climate of Bengal, he lost his first wife and, before that, their second child. At one time, during a period of terrorism, he was described as holding the most dangerous job in the world. A knighthood was almost automatic for a chief secretary and was some compensation for, what was in fact, a poor pension for a life of retirement in the UK. But the fact that my grandfather's KCIE was well and truly earned is evidenced by the personal letter he received from the Chief Minister of Bengal (later first Prime Minister of Bangladesh). Nazimuddin wrote in 1945: "Please accept my thanks for all that you have done for the people of Bengal."

Sir Fred Goodwin's knighthood dishonours my relative ("Sir Fred may be stripped of title", The Herald, January 20). As a young man, with most of his business life in front of him, he should never have been chosen for this prestigious award at that point in his career. Where was the evidence of a contribution which brought lasting benefit to society? He didn't invent, or produce, anything. The committee which recommends these awards needs to take a hard look at itself and review its criteria.

Ian HC Stein,

8 Ochlochy Park,

Dunblane.


Now its time for beancounting.The sooner the deal is wrapped up the better.The more toime it takes,the more pressure upon the GOI and the losers will be sharpening their claws and looking for ways in which to return,threaten to "return the compliment".

Very true about US "myopia".It has a sty,sorry, Paki in the eye which clouds its vision!

amit
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby amit » 02 Feb 2012 10:00

^^^^^


Maybe some kind soul on this forum can rent out some shivers to folks like us who suffer from a serious defency of not possessing something that is essential in the existence of SDREs like us?
:rotfl:

ramana
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby ramana » 02 Feb 2012 10:05

Philip, Your recounting if the past is good for hisab, but the Rafale did have the least L1 and that is wha mattered in the end. We need to keep repeating this to drive home the point to ward of unnecessary/unwarranted pressure.

shiv
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby shiv » 02 Feb 2012 10:22

Rep0sting s0ft p0rn for military jet jing0s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dGHx-p9v1Y

rajanb
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby rajanb » 02 Feb 2012 10:23

Let us take the scenario that someone does put pressure to change our mind about the chosen a/c. Then the whole MMRCA can be mired in a lot of legal action, accusations of kickbacks and favours taken to change the decision.

Whilst, I expect that pressure will be mounted, two things have to be taken into account, by those contemplating applying this pressure.

One will be the manufacturer will bear the fall out of any pressure, be it from politicos/countries in terms of damaging the manufacturers chances of future buys. Our armed forces have a good longlasting memory. And the ramifications, though diluted will spill over to other countries who are contemplating buying.

Two, though remote but powerful. Will be the threat of blacklisting.

It would be better for the supposed (supposed because the contract has not been inked) loser to be diplomatic and say that we respect your choice even though we feel our product is better and we assure India that if your negotiations run into a roadblock you will not find us lacking in our desire to win this deal.

The statements coming from the UK are not helping Tiffy's slim chances of getting back into reckoning.

On another point. We are looking at the price of the deal. Please do not forget that a contract can entail additional commercial costs. And the way we negotiate, these commercial costs will land up in the vendor's lap, making our purchase cheaper. :)

Austin
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Austin » 02 Feb 2012 10:38

Credit should also go to UPA government for biting the bullet and taking a decision on Mother of All Deals ..... Any government taking the decision on MOAD will have felt the heat.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby vina » 02 Feb 2012 10:52

shiv wrote:Rep0sting s0ft p0rn for military jet jing0s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dGHx-p9v1Y
Sweet !Just love the way it vent vertical from a very slow speed pass at high AoA (at around 3:59 to 4:05) . Speaks of a lot of excess installed thrust. I just hope that what India got in the Rafale offer was for the M88-3 with higher thrust engines and that puts it in the ball park of 90 tons. It will make this superb plane even better in A2A and in the hot and high conditions of India.

The M88-3 will put it on par or better with the Eurofighter in terms of air superiority, while it is simply leagues ahead in A2G.

Badar
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Re: Re:

Postby Badar » 02 Feb 2012 10:54

sudeepj wrote:Source diversification was a good strategy when we were doing screwdriver tech and new very little abt the platforms. But we are already manufacturing SU30MKIs from raw materials.. If we are doing so, and we have the source codes (since we made the mission computers), what stops us from integrating new weapons, new radars etc.?

Let's get real for a moment and rain on peoples ToT parade for a bit. IAF will be immune to sanctions and drying up of consumables supply, overhauling and repairs etc. But we won't be able to manufacture a single new aircraft if the vendor doesn't allow it (technically, not legal or economically speaking), or to do any significant upgrades like sensor or propulsion system or airframe modifications. We will continue to go back to the vendor hat and check in hand for any non-trivial upgrade or operational challenges.

When we talk of "codes" all we will get is access to the interfaces and software tooling needed to integrate new end user equipment. Which means you might be able to integrate an Astra to the Radar with difficulty if the vendor doesn't back yo, but you sure as hell wont be able to add a new GMTI mode to the radar - you simply wont have that level of access.

While the vulnerability to the exporters whims (Russian price roulette, war embargo) is reduced drastically, we are not immune to it. These "deep" deals ensure wartime and routine upkeep autonomy - nothing beyond it.

I share a certain sympathy with you about the efficacy of a for Plan B costing 25 billion dollars, but one can't deny the basic virtue two eggs.

All the Chinese have to do is to develop a bistatic radar and guidance system, and the semi stealth goes for a toss.

I have been hearing about these 'obvious' solutions for close to two decades. Maybe we will continue to hear about these obvious solutions for another two decades {shrug}. If and when this technology comes to pass on a mass produced scale and actually deployed we might as well see a all LO UCAV penetration fleet in the IAF to deal with them. For the next two decades the Rafale should be adequate.

Thats a really expensive lesson being peddled. The threat will come from a J20, not a semi stealth solution.

You realize that stealthier J-11 versions are in the works right with some shaping/blending/shielding and internal bays? And they will form a larger body of the spear with a J-20 class tip.

Can the Rafale go toe to toe against a plane with a radar optimized shape?

It might or it might not. RCS is not end all.
Question is will a FGFA, Rafale, Super-30 mix stand against a J-20ish, J-11ish, J-10 airforce? Not to speak of the rest of the institutional infrastructure.

The Chinese have shown a lot of focus and persistence in developing their indigenous defense base, and one of these days, it will pay off.

What do you mean one of these days?!

eklavya wrote:Having said that, I see PAF salivating for F-16 Block 50/AMRAAM, whereas Rafale/METEOR/MICA aces even the F-16 Block 60 (as per IAF's 600 parameters anyway). This tells me that Chinese radar / electronic warfare / missile tech is still significantly lagging the West (otherwise why would PAF seek the Block 50s).

No. All this tells you is that the export grade stuff accessible to the PAF from the West is lot better than the export quality stuff available to the them from the Chinese.
Last edited by Badar on 02 Feb 2012 11:27, edited 1 time in total.

Sanku
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Sanku » 02 Feb 2012 11:00

Kartik wrote:I had to shut it off once Ajai Shukla started talking.


Personally; I puked!!

Sanku
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Sanku » 02 Feb 2012 11:11

Austin wrote:Credit should also go to UPA government


No need to tempt Dr Subramanimum Swamy is there?

:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Austin
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Austin » 02 Feb 2012 11:14

Ajai Shukla is a person of strong conviction and he tends to stick to a view if he personally believes in it.

Ajai is putting in too much weight on what LM has to say on f-35 compared to the actual facts on ground ... had f-35 been in service in USAF even in initial numbers then his point would have made some sense....... having an aircraft on trial and then expecting IAF to put faith in it compared to the risk associated with it .. no professional airforce would bite that bullet.

Its time Ajai looks at the larger picture and look at MMRCA from IAF perspective instead of looking at it from his own personal conviction and views on this subject.

Although I would still defend his right to say on what he has to , i dont think he is lifafa jurno or indulging in some promotional exercise on behalf of some one.

Austin
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Austin » 02 Feb 2012 11:17

Sanku wrote:
Austin wrote:Credit should also go to UPA government


No need to tempt Dr Subramanimum Swamy is there?

:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:


Its a tough call for any government in power to take a call on the largest defence deal , considering we have a past with Bofors and HDW

In that sense credit should go to UPA for biting the bullet ..... no matter how it plays out in future.

kaangeya
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby kaangeya » 02 Feb 2012 11:26

I am v.happy that the MoD has chosen the Rafale. I wish, though some knowledgeable gurus of BRF would condescend to offer their POV. Especially considering the torrent of junk some misinformed experts like tank-h****r Shukla and even a one time BR friend (now with a national magazine) have been unloading. Shukla exhibiting some remarkable cluelessness imagines combat aircraft capability levels are a mere matter of tacking a label. Gen 3/Gen4/Gen 4 etc. "J20 is Gen5 so Raffy is toast, because Raffy is Gen4" The ex-BR friend helpfully informs us that the Raffy will be too expensive, and our not having a 1-engine combat airframe will make combat air patrol v.expensive! The poor sod cant get over the idea of air bases defended by CAP, little knowing how much this sort of mission drains resources. You dont have your ships doing CAP, you have out there to prevent the bogey from entering your airspace! Such pathetic thinking.

I have a few thoughts. The IAF (and the IN because I believe its aviators too had a hand in this one) is full of v.well qualified professionals who as ex-Amb.Naresh Chandra said, value the life of their own men, higher than everything else except national honour. Mission 1st, Men 2nd. Without a meaningful discussion of what types of missions the IAF is going to undertake stemming from its doctrine, and strategic orders, which has been entirely absent everywhere in Cybernagar except here on BR, it is pointless to talk of any technical superiority. It is true that La Belle's 2 X 50 kN powerplant < Helga's 2 X 60 kN powerplant. Darn, if that was all we needed, St.Anthony could have called a few monkeys like me to draw up a XSheet and make a "comparative statement" and place orders. Are IAF/IN officers such technical cretins? For all 5th Gen fanboys, how many battlefield missions has the Raptor flown? Don't we all know that there is no such thing as absolute stealth? An idea only less ridiculous than Klingon spaceships armed with deathrays?
All of us know how much the PLAAF struggles to sortie out of the Tibet plateau with a full combat load. And we are still asking why we need a 2 engine ship if we are going work extensively out of Ladakh and Arunachal Pradesh?
Of the many "critiques" we had so far outside BR, there are only two worth considering. Ashley Tellis tried his best to make a case for the Viper and Hornet, saying forget technology, value the strategic dividend. Adm.Arun Prakash criticised the deal for not doing enough to build indigenous capability. The rest is bunk. If there has been a single study so far that looks like it's come out of a SASO's team that compares the ships for different missions, I haven't and nobody else has seen it.

rajanb
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby rajanb » 02 Feb 2012 11:31

^^^ Good Post. Some of us have this habit of declaring the better a/c by sitting behind a screen and chatting with Uncle Google. Not to mention the manufacturers extolling their own a/c

pankajs
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby pankajs » 02 Feb 2012 11:32

Jhujar wrote:India, the natural counter-balance to China, is feeling ignored and unloved by the U.S. after the false spring of Bush's nuclear giveaway and the bipartisan rush to sell India lots of expensive but obsolescent weaponry. And it's trying to create a new strategy that accepts the reality of America and the West's continuing bamboozlement by Pakistan - including through outreach to nations like Iran. India is well aware that war between the regional superpowers is not at all unlikely in the future but like China would prefer economic battles. Technology transfers like the Rafale deal give India a leg up either way, and if America wants a powerful democratic ally in the region it should be offering such transfers at every opportunity rather than leaving it to Europe to become India's preferred future trading par

This is the phrase that needs to be stressed in every interaction that Indians (GOI & P2P) have with Americans using this deal as an example of their unwillingness to partner with us.

Instead of buying Tellis's line and being defensive about the deal, we should point to America's unwillingness to share technology to the level offered by the French and thereby not valuing the strategic dividend. The fault, if any, should be put squarely on them.

nachiket
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby nachiket » 02 Feb 2012 11:57

The Americans still haven't got over the fact that they lost to the Eurocanards simply because their aircraft didn't make the cut. Seem to be finding new excuses all the time. Latest one is that they lost because the French were willing to sell their secrets while the Americans weren't.

pankajs
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby pankajs » 02 Feb 2012 12:09

Frankly we will not get to know the amount of TOT involved anytime soon and you may be right on that count.

I am using the very example Tellis uses to draw the exact opposite conclusion and put it up to them to defend instead of us being defensive about it.

Badar
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Badar » 02 Feb 2012 12:10

pankajs wrote:
Jhujar wrote:if America wants a powerful democratic ally in the region it should be offering such transfers at every opportunity [/b]rather than leaving it to Europe to become India's preferred future trading par

This is the phrase that needs to be stressed in every interaction that Indians (GOI & P2P) have with Americans using this deal as an example of their unwillingness to partner with us.

Instead of buying Tellis's line and being defensive about the deal, we should point to America's unwillingness to share technology to the level offered by the French and thereby not valuing the strategic dividend. The fault, if any, should be put squarely on them.

Wo Dilli bahut door hai. First step would be doing away with EUMA/EULA etc, forget ToT.

The US plays the good cop bad cop routine very well. The administration in power pretends to want to bend over backwards to accommodate a client like India, but it helpless to do it because of the laws passed by Congress. There are occasions when it is necessary to compromise soverignity in favor of security, but India is not yet in that situation.

Unless India is willing to be a client state (US has no other relationship other than client or adversary) or the US fundamentally changes the way it does business - the Indo-US military sales, JV, ToT etc will be in the backwaters.

Badar
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Badar » 02 Feb 2012 12:11

nachiket wrote:The Americans still haven't got over the fact that they lost to the Eurocanards simply because their aircraft didn't make the cut. Seem to be finding new excuses all the time. Latest one is that they lost because the French were willing to sell their secrets while the Americans weren't.

So clearly it was the US manufacturers failure.

nachiket
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby nachiket » 02 Feb 2012 12:21

Badar wrote:
nachiket wrote:The Americans still haven't got over the fact that they lost to the Eurocanards simply because their aircraft didn't make the cut. Seem to be finding new excuses all the time. Latest one is that they lost because the French were willing to sell their secrets while the Americans weren't.

So clearly it was the US manufacturers failure.

Yes. Although I'm not sure if they could have done anything differently. The could not have offered the JSF. It simply isn't ready. The only other aircraft they had was the F-15 which would be too large and expensive and in the same category as the MKI.
We don't know if Boeing was forced to offer a downgraded version of the F-18 due to govt. regulations, or if it was the full-spec version, but lost anyway.

krishnan
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby krishnan » 02 Feb 2012 12:43

Not US manufacturer's failure...it was US govt policy failure

koti
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby koti » 02 Feb 2012 12:44

Kartik wrote:I had to shut it off once Ajai Shukla started talking.

pandyan wrote:
Sanku wrote:[

Personally; I puked!!


I think he is pretty stubborn and would rather go down the wrong way than correct himself. There are subtle evidence of that in the blogs and his interaction with readers...like "rafale won and HAL to setup eurofighter line" blooper, "left is su-30mki dial-o-dial console, right is glass cockpit version " comparison, in both cases he could have simply said "thanks for pointing out the mistakes...I corrected it"; instead he finds a sneaky way to change it or snub the users with arrogant/know it all attitude.

He has his views.
How much biased, wrong or sold out they might appear.
Let us not discuss his traits here sirs, Only opinions.

Badar
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Badar » 02 Feb 2012 12:46

krishnan wrote:Not US manufacturer's failure...it was US govt policy failure

It was a commercial contract, not sovereign to sovereign deal. If the vendors could not meet the terms (performance and/or local laws) then its their problem that they should attempt to get fixed for the future. Nothing India can do about it.

koti
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby koti » 02 Feb 2012 12:48

pandyan wrote:UKistan whiners are hilarious. "We gave 1.2B pounds in bribe, they took the money and paid it as a down payment for rafale. We should ask for a refund with interest". may be we should donate them 2 acres of bakistan and ask for whole of England in return.

Hawk, Corus, Tetley, Shaguar/LR -> major employers are Indian companies.


Whats more offensive is their tone. Its outright insulting and linking Aid to a commercial contract just shows how low UK as a state can get. Is seems they haven't learned anything from the collapse of their empire and their reduction into a lagoon on the worlds stage.

Austin
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Austin » 02 Feb 2012 13:07

BTW how does the AESA radar of Rafale fair ? Any technical details of Rafale AESA Radar ?

From what i have read it has a smaller number of T/R module something around ~ 1000 T/R module

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby saptarishi » 02 Feb 2012 13:15

know your katrina and her sexy body parts

Image
Image
rbe-2aa aesa

Image
EW--spectra and ddm-ng

Image
DAMOCLES XF POD

Image
FSO-IT

Image
M88-2E4

Image
TOPOWL-F, the new upgraded version of topsight

AESA Radar
One of the stumbling block for Rafale was the AESA radar. This problem is being over come with Thales RBE2 AESA radar. Testing of these radar with the aircraft is already on and is supposed to be delivered by 2013. Some salient points of this radar are
All radar functions are performed in the same flight:

Air Defence

•Very long detection and track ranges
•Fully automatic, sorting and ranking of tracked targets
•Fully target tracks independent of search volume.
Deep low-level penetration

•Automatic terrain following and avoidance
Strike mission

•En Route update of target area situation
•High resolution imagery modes (SAR) – Designations
Sea skimming attacks

•Detection and multi-tracking
1.Active electronic scanning makes it possible to switch radar modes quickly, thereby enabling operational functions to run simultaneously.
2.AESA has incorporated expertise coming from the current RBE2 Rafale radar, in the tradition of electronic scanning array radar.
3.The RBE2 has been in production since 1997 and was combat proven in multinational operations in 2001.
4.It can be fitted on large or medium fighter aircraft.
Technical Features
Antenna block

•Active electronic scanning
•Very low side and scattered lobes in azimuth and elevation
•Very high reliability (T/R modules)
Active transmit / Receiver modules and exciter / Receiver

•Multipole Waveforms
•Coherent X band frequency generation
•Excellent spectral purity
•Wide bandwidth
•Full monopulse
•MMIC/GaAs technologies
Programmable signal processor and data processor

•Target detection and ECCM processing
•Fully programmable
•Anti-obsolescence solutions: open architecture – COTS components
•Tracking computation
•High resolution map generation

courtesy MBDA

DDM-NG Missile warning system for Rafale
Operational Requirement
DDM-NG has been designed to provide the Rafale fighter self-protection system (Spectra) with an advanced Missile Warning System covering most of the sphere around the aircraft.

The Solution

•DDM-NG is a passive, imaging infrared Missile Warning System using the latest advances in sensor technology and processing algorithms.
•DDM-NG takes advantage of the extensive and unique experience acquired on current DDM systems in service on French Air Force and Navy Mirage 2000 and Rafale aircraft.
•The DDM-NG system’s long detection range, large field of view and advanced software provides the highest level of performance.
Description

•State-of-the-art infrared staring array technology Long detection range
•Advanced algorithms ensure very low false alarm rate
•Very large field of view
•High angular accuracy compliant with DIRCM needs
•Form, fit, function replacement for DDM on Rafale
Main Features And Advantages

•Covert passive system
•Dual colour imaging
•Early detection
•Very large field of view
•High angular precision
•Automatic decoy activation



courtesy Thales

Damocles XF, Thales’s future multifunction targeting pod
Thales is developing a new version of its multifunction targeting pod, Damocles XF, to provide air and naval air forces with a solution boasting unparalleled performance. This new version is expected to be up and running in 2012 and will incorporate, in particular, new communication means and an enhanced identification system, thereby improving its effectiveness irrespective of the environment.Basically the French Air Force wants a daytime camera to give crisper pictures like a TV channel which can be downloaded to the ground troops too

Consequently, Damocles XF’s development meets the most specific requirements as concerns the main phases of air operation engagements.Regarding long-range, Damocles XF will benefit from Damocles’s outstanding performance, which already guarantees that laser guided arms can be used at the range’s extreme limit, thereby providing maximum security for the platform and the team.

For short-range engagements in complex environments, including urban areas, the effectiveness is based not only on the guidance precision, but also on positive day and night identification. To provide the pilot with the most advanced reconnaissance and identification capabilities, Damocles XF will therefore have high-resolution InfraRed (IR) imagery and a new day-light camera.

In joint operations with close air support, the new data transmission capability integrated in Damocles XF will facilitate data and video exchange with ground troops, will improve the chain of command’s control and will increase the engagement’s precision. The data liaison system will be completely interoperable with the systems used by forces engaged today in joint operations.

M88-2-E4 engine
Now here comes the most controversial of debates because the greatest drawback which Rafale has is its power generated by the engines. Which is much lower than Eurofighter Typhoon and smaller machines like F-16.

The current engine flown by French Air Force generates 7.5 tonnes of power. Because Rafale has two engines therefore it can generate upto 15 tonnes of power.This gives the aircraft the power to weight ratio of 1:1 when loaded with 50% fuel and 2.5 tonnes of weapon. Unfortunately when Rafale is used to the hilt that is the maximum take-off weight of 25 tonnes, this power to weigh ratio degrades considerably which can prove an Achilles heel for it.

French Air Force pilots are quite satisfied with the performance even in hot weather of UAE and Afghanistan. Currently French Pilots cruise at a speed of 0.9 Mach on a seven hour mission with a full ordinance load when flying to Libya for bombing missions.

UAE pilots are struggling with the lower power of Rafale engine because they are habituated in flying F-16 which are much smaller as mentioned earlier with a very big engine and Rafle is unable to match that design or the power output.Problem does not stop there either for UAE. UAE Air Force would like to fly with 3 Shaheen cruise missiles each of them weigh around 1,300kg, with that they would like to carry three 2,000 liter fuel tanks. Most Pilot concede that when the temperature reaches 50 degrees it will be much easy to fly specially take-off with a thrust of 19 tonnes rather than 15 tonnes carrying such a heavy arsenal.

The new-generation M88-2 integrates the latest technologies, including low-emissions combustor, single-crystal turbine blades and powder metallurgy disks, as well as innovations to reduce electromagnetic and infrared signatures. It is a highly compact engine, developing 50 to 75 kN of thrust with afterburner (11,250 to 17,000 lb), giving it a very high thrust-to-weight ratio. The M88-2 also shows exceptionally carefree handling, especially during acceleration.

Snecma is developing an improved version of the M88 called the M88-4E, formerly known as the “TCO Pack”, to power Rafale multirole fighters. It will include upgrades to the high-pressure compressor and turbine, derived from technologies tested during the ECO development program. The aim is to extend the service life and time between inspections for several parts of the engine. The development of the M88-4E is proceeding very satisfactorily. Qualification and delivery of the first production-standard M88-4E are now slated for the end of 2011.

Work on an improved M-88-2E4 engine is well advanced at Snecma, but the goal is not to increase power but to lower the Total Cost of Ownership (TCO) by extending service life and time between inspections. The -2E4 will also reduce fuel burn by 2 to 4%, Snecma says. Most probably these engines will be tested by November 2011

The improvements included in the M-88-2E4 engine will form the main part for the future 9-tonne engine. However, notes a Dassault Aviation executive, there’s a big stumbling block: “we need an order and a signature to launch the 9-tonne engine.” Unfortunately if this kind of 9 tonne engine is put into Rafale then the air went have to be increased by 1.5cm thus increasing the Radar Cross Section. Therefore Dassault has to either change the design or material used to reduce the RCS.


courtesy wikipedia

AASM or Hammer
The Armement Air-Sol Modulaire (Air-to-Ground Modular Weapon) (AASM) is a French Precision-Guided Munition developed by Sagem Défense Sécurité. AASM comprises a frontal guidance kit and a rear-mounted range extension kit matched to a dumb bomb. The weapon is modular because it can integrate different types of guidance units and different types of bombs. The basic version features a 250-kilogram (550 lb) bomb plus hybrid inertial navigation system (INS) / Global Positioning System (GPS) guidance. Other variants add imaging infrared (IIR) or semi-active laser homing (SALH) to increase accuracy; there are also versions with 125-kilogram (280 lb) or 1,000-kilogram (2,200 lb) bomb bodies. It entered service in 2007 with the French Air Force and Naval Aviation.

On Thursday, April 21, French defense procurement agency DGA successfully performed a demonstration firing test of the AASM modular air-to-ground weapon against a land target moving at high speed.

The test was carried out at the DGA’s missile test range in Biscarosse by a production Rafale fighter deployed by the DGA’s flight-test center in Cazaux. The AASM was fired from an extreme off-axis angle (90°) at a range exceeding 15 kilometers.

The impact was at a very low angle, against a moving target represented by a laser spot generated by a ground illuminator mounted on a turret, to simulate a vehicle moving at a speed of 80 km/h.

Using its algorithms for detection and slaving of the trajectory to the laser spot, plus its excellent maneuverability, the AASM hit its target to within less than one meter.

This firing test demonstrated the AASM Laser’s ability to offer 1-meter accuracy against high-speed, agile land or maritime targets. Coupling this performance with its standoff firing capability, the AASM is unrivaled in the market for tactical air-to-ground weapons.

The inertial/GPS/laser-guided version of the AASM is fitted with a semi-active laser seeker, and features algorithms to track fixed or highly mobile targets during the terminal phase. It will enhance the operational flexibility already offered by the AASM family, including two versions that have been qualified for firing by the Rafale multirole fighter: inertial/GPS and inertial/GPS/infrared.

The laser terminal guidance version of the AASM will enter volume production for the French air force and navy starting at the end of 2012.

ROVER (Remotely-Operated Video Enhanced Receiver) real-time video system will be fitted in the new upgrade but none of the agencies are in any mood to divulge any details about this avionics

New capabilities that might be incorporated into the Rafale’s mid-life update in around 2025 could include operating unmanned aerial vehicles, thrust vectoring for improved maneuverability, and conformal radar antenna arrays located all around the airframe.
Last edited by saptarishi on 02 Feb 2012 13:34, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby saptarishi » 02 Feb 2012 13:31

Austin wrote:BTW how does the AESA radar of Rafale fair ? Any technical details of Rafale AESA Radar ?

From what i have read it has a smaller number of T/R module something around ~ 1000 T/R module


rafale aesa has around 863 t/r modules as compared to thousand advertised,its radar diameter is around 550mm,as compared to 900-1000 of su-30mki,f-15, f-22,700 of eurofighter,but it is a very potent radar with very good ground mapping and sar modes,and a very good tracking capability.the pesa rbe2 alone could track 40 targets and lock on to 8 at one go,with a range of 130km against 5 m2 rcs targets and a range of 100km for 1-3 m2 rcs targets. the aesa rbe2-aa boasts of a 50 percent range increase that makes it 150km for 1-3m2 rcs.in any case it is better than the bars radar anyday,until mki gets super-30 upgrades with the flanker version of zhuk-ae and the pak-fa radar this will be the best fighter radar india will have.certainly it will have a lot of advantage against targets like j-11,f-15,f-16 and j-10 which all have high rcs compared to rafale,so even though this radar has 859-863 t/r modules against j-11,su-30mkk,f-15,j-10 and f-16 it will really be very potent force to reckon with

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Austin » 02 Feb 2012 14:11

^^^^ Thanks.

AFAIK BARS is a very powerful PESA radar which was only superseded by Irbis , BARS has phenomenal detection capability against 1-3 m2 target read its beyond 150 km

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby shukla » 02 Feb 2012 14:27

HAL lands a fortune as Rafale arrives
IBNLive

New divisions to boot, newer technologies to date and new planes to fly. The $10-billion MMRCA order bagged by Dassault Rafale has given Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) a lot to cheer. HAL's officiating chairman P V Deshmukh told Express on Wednesday that the announcement has given new hopes for the 33,000-plus strong workforce. HAL now hopes to clinch a business volume of about Rs 20,000-25,000 crore from rolling out Rafales in the next 10 years. “These are rough estimates and a clear picture will only come when we see the fine-print, including ToT details. We will have to see the specific role that will be assigned to us,” Deshmukh said. HAL will roll out 108 aircraft under licence out of the 126, and 18 planes will be directly supplied by Dassault Aviation.


In the first quarter of 2016, HAL hopes to begin deliveries to the Indian Air Force (IAF), but going by its track record, this date might undergo “changes”. Making of Rafale in HAL means work in the form of semi/fully knocked-down kits and to the full raw material phase. Deshmukh said the manpower would be put through additional training to take on the tech challenges. “We will set up a separate division with a blend of fresh and experienced engineers.

Two locations have been shortlisted within the HAL estate at Bangalore for setting up the airframe and engine divisions. Conceptual design of plant layout for the aircraft and engine production units are under progress. The accessory production will go to divisions at Hyderabad, Lucknow and Korwa,” HAL said via a written response to Express queries. HAL has already signed an MoU with Dassault Aviation and Snecma, as a preparatory step. HAL's director (HR) Chamola said that it would be too early to give the number of new recruits for the projects.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Snehashis » 02 Feb 2012 14:44

Rafale is IAF’s New Year Gift


The Indian Government formally informed the manufacturers of these two aircraft Jan 31 of the much-awaited Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) competition of this result. That Rafale is Number 1, and Eurofighter Number 2 in their financial bids.

A brief statement to this effect was read out to their representatives in the Ministry of Defence (MoD).The announcement comes as a big New Year Gift to the Indian Air Force (IAF), which has been waiting for a new generation aircraft since 2001, when it first floated an RFI to replace its older, Soviet generation Mig series aircraft acquired from the late 1960s onwards.



French Reaction

French President Nicolas Sarkozy welcomed the Indian decision and promised substantial transfer of technology. "The negotiation of the contract will begin very soon with the full support of French authorities,” he said, adding: “It will include major transfers of technology guaranteed by the French state."

Dassault, Rafale’s manufacturer, said that the company had supplied several aircraft to India from Mystere to Mirage 2000 and would keep up with its “commitment to meet the operational requirements of the Indian Air Force and underline their pride in contributing to India’s defence for over half a century.”

Notably, the French Sud Aviation was also the first company to supply commercial jets to India, when the erstwhile Indian Airlines took possession of Caravelle aircraft in the 1960s. US Boeing followed with 707s to Air India and 737s to Indian Airlines.

Eurofighter expressed disappointment, saying that it would analyse the situation.


France, on a wining spree

The French, for whom the Indian decision should be the biggest combat aircraft deal yet, and a boost to their economy, have been on a winning spree in India recently.

Dassault, and its partners Thales and Safran, have been awarded a nearly US$ 2 billion contract to upgrade some 50 Mirage 2000 to 2005 standard, and extend their lives by another 20 to 25 years while earlier, ship builder DCNS won a major contract for six Scorpene submarines for the Indian Navy.

The Indian deal should help the French to reduce the high manufacturing costs, going by the simple industrial dictum: The larger the number, the cheaper the costs.

France has also promised assistance in nuclear power generation and missile technologies.


Selection, on Technical and Financial merit

It may be noted that Rafale and Eurofighter were technically placed on equal footing by the Indian Air Force (IAF) but the French aircraft turned out to be cheaper in direct buy as well as life cycle costs. No details have been released to the public (media) though but industry sources indicated a substantial price difference overall of about 20 per cent.

Notably, costings and requirements of many items, like weapon systems and combat radar specifications, are secret.

There was a last-minute bid by the leaders of the four countries which manufacture Eurofighter Typhoon – Britain, Germany, Spain and Italy – asking India to go for a political decision and select this otherwise very good aircraft but the Government, at the highest levels, decided to go by the book only.

Rafale turned out to be the choice for selection on both technical and financial merit. That is what Defence Minister A K Antony had promised always.

Sources said that the Ministry of External Affairs had also informed the concerned governments of its decision just before the decision was announced to the two finalists.

The Government took about seven months to determine the winner on the basis of costs after the IAF shortlisted the two aircraft in April 2011. Financial bids were actually opened only in November, but before that, the Government examined various package details from life cycle support to periodic upgrades and the very important Transfer of Technology (ToT) terms.

The documents were examined again and again to every comma and full stop before the selection was made.


Supply

Dassault will supply 18 aircraft in flyaway condition within three years of the signing of the contract and then assist India’s HAL and other private or public sector companies in progressively manufacturing the aircraft in India. Both the finalists have been in discussions with Indian manufacturers in this regard. HAL will be the integrator but some private and public sector players are naturally in the race.

It should take a few months, but hopefully within calendar year 2012, to sign the contract.

The aircraft can be refueled mid-air, and as per the RfP, its systems have to be compatible with the Israeli and British Cobham's fuel transferring systems used by the IAF's IL 78 midair refuelers


A bit of History

It may be recalled that four other aircraft, US Lockheed Martin F 16, Boeing Super Hornet F 18, Russian Mig 35 and Swedish Saab Gripen were disqualified in the global MRCA competition although the IAF described all the aircraft as good.

“It was a question of who scored how many” in the IAF’s check list of over 600 points, said the then IAF Chief of Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal P V Naik.

Initially in 2001, IAF had wanted only the single-engine Mirage 2005 plant to be shifted to India. The French were willing. The number asked then was the same, 126 for six combat squadrons of 18 aircraft each, or 108 aircraft. An additional 18 aircraft were requested for routine Maintenance Reserve and Strike Off Wastage (MRSOW). Two aircraft in each squadron are for training of pilots.

Some one in the MoD indeed had a better idea: that if the number was so large, then there should be a global tender with better specifications. Even though the French have finally won, IAF has got better capability systems than it initially asked for.

Russian aircraft are not favoured generally because of their high maintenance costs while both the Europeans and Americans have displayed hassle-free, operationally cheaper aircraft and systems on the table. Higher maintenance also means less availability as the machines have to be with engineers and technicians.



Naval Variant

Rafale also has a successful naval variant, already operational, and based on board France's lone aircraft carrier Charles de Gualle. The French have made formal presentations to the Indian Navy to inspire interest, and flight demonstrations have been held during an Indo-French exercise off Goa in 2011.

Indian Navy Chief Admiral Nirmal Verma told India Strategic recently that the Navy was planning for about 100 combat jets, but that no aircraft had been identified yet. The Navy has plans for two indigenous aircraft carriers, and the ship-board fighters would be needed in due course, say in another 5-7 years.

Notably, similar presentations, sans flights, have also been made for US Lockheed Martin's F 35, Swedish Saab Gripen and Eurofighter.

The Navy already has on order 45 Mig 29s for INS Vikramaditya aka Admiral Gorshkov, which is due to make its formal appearance on the Indian shores by 4 Dec 2012, the Navy Day.



US Vs European technologies

It is an admitted fact that US aircraft have better battle-tested technologies and some systems are known to be only with its forces. US is the only country with fully operational AESA (Active Electronically Scanned Array) radars for instance while others have them at various stages of development.

There is one US missile, Raytheon’s High Speed Anti-Radiation Missile (HARM), which has no equivalent with either the Eurofighter or Rafale. Perhaps IAF would want it, and if so, then, either France or India would have to put in requests to Washington.

US may have been disappointed at losing this big aircraft deal but hopefully should be willing to share some of its hitech systems with India.


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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby nash » 02 Feb 2012 14:50

I have one query here regarding 80+ possible MMRCA ... if GoI go for next batch of MMRCA and F-35 get selected(if it is presented by LM), then it would manufacture by LM at USA or this will also done by HAL after some intial batches... :?:

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Badar » 02 Feb 2012 14:53

nash wrote:I have one query here regarding 80+ possible MMRCA ... if GoI go for next batch of MMRCA and F-35 get selected(if it is presented by LM), then it would manufacture by LM at USA or this will also done by HAL after some intial batches... :?:

Best HAL could hope for is assembly from knockdown kits. I would be really skeptical of anything more than that.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby member_22539 » 02 Feb 2012 15:05

Badar wrote:
nash wrote:I have one query here regarding 80+ possible MMRCA ... if GoI go for next batch of MMRCA and F-35 get selected(if it is presented by LM), then it would manufacture by LM at USA or this will also done by HAL after some intial batches... :?:

Best HAL could hope for is assembly from knockdown kits. I would be really skeptical of anything more than that.



Based on what? Please give us some info or examples.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Singha » 02 Feb 2012 15:05

between SLAM-ER , SDB, CBU, GBU, HARM, Litening4, JDAM the US could still pocked a cool $3-5 billion off the MRCA.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby pankajs » 02 Feb 2012 15:06

I think the 80+ additional airframes should be seen as promised reward to the French for good performance on the MMRCA contract.

Another new airframe will only add to the headache of new production facility, training, maintenance, logistics train, etc. Extending the current deal would also be cheaper given the investment already made.

The 5th Gen deal for us is anyway the Russian JV.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Sanku » 02 Feb 2012 15:08

pandyan wrote:I think he is pretty stubborn and would rather go down the wrong way than correct himself. .


On this note, Pandyan-ji and others (Notably Surya):

I have only one thing to add to the discussion on "brilliant" commentary by the not so good Col (rtd.) on Kat and his outpourings elsewhere ---

Jo Lahore mein........ (Shiv's fav saying)

He is now Kapil Sibal of defense journalism.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Badar » 02 Feb 2012 15:13

Arun Menon wrote:
Badar wrote:Best HAL could hope for is assembly from knockdown kits. I would be really skeptical of anything more than that.

Based on what? Please give us some info or examples.

Based on the most optimistic (and unrealistic?) assessment that India will be classified as a Level II partner, like Italy.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Philip » 02 Feb 2012 16:44

Ramanna,I agree.The MMRCA deal has been the most transparent military acquisition in Indian defence history,perhaps due to the intense poltical pressure that the contestants barring Sweden could bring along with their aircraft.The Rafale has won fairly and squarely,notwithstanding the clever strategy of Pres.Sarkozy,who was also able to convince the GOI of France's deep commitment to India in collaboration across the board.This the Americans never understood,expecting India to simply nod in agrement and sign on the dotted line,accepting the great "gift" of a US aircrat,somewhat similar in style to the famous tale of the senator who acompanied a US president to Japan and wanted the Japanese to buy American LHD autos!

Viewed from any angle,the decision to go with the Rafale has been correct.Technically,financially,strategically,when compared with its rivals,it has come out on top.Good luck to the IAF.There is now a huge amount of work to be dome by the bean counters seal the deal and unless for some unforseen (unlikely) catastrophe ,which would scuttle the deal,the door must be firmly and politely shut to the losers.No back door entry either!

PS: The Yanquis will never learn.Moaning yet again about their defeat.At least Cameron's team made it to the "final" and the match was so close; a photo-finish,that he could behave like a football manager who blames the ref. for his side's defeat.Both Yanqui birds were KO'd in the first round itself and the "unbeatable" touting stretches the credulity beyond the elastic limit!
Last edited by Philip on 02 Feb 2012 16:55, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Austin » 02 Feb 2012 16:46

F-16, F-18s would have provided India unbeatable platforms: US

Having lost out on the multi-billion Indian Air Force contract, the Pentagon said American fighter jets - F-16 and F-18 - would have provided India unbeatable platforms with proven technologies at a competitive price.

"We are extremely confident that the F/A-18IN and F-16IN would have provided the Indian Air Force unbeatable platforms with proven technologies at a competitive price," the Pentagon spokesman Cmdr Leslie Hull-Ryde said.

"As you know, our platforms are derived from combat proven fighter aircraft and represent the cutting-edge of proven technology," Hull-Ryde said.

The Pentagon remarks came a day after India announced that the French company Dassault Aviation has emerged as the lowest bidder for its multi-billion fighter jet deal, beating out the Eurofighter Typhoon.

In April India had already rejected the bids of two American fighters' jets along with that of the Russians and Swedish.

Hull-Ryde clarified that there has been no offer to sell F-35 Joint Strike Fighters (JSF) to India.

"Should India indicate interest in purchasing the JSF, the United States would be prepared to provide information on the JSF and its requirements (infrastructure, security, etc) to support India's future planning," she said.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby member_20453 » 02 Feb 2012 16:58

srai wrote:Let's do some weapon package costs (specific to Rafale):

  • 500 x MICA @€1 billion (additional to the 490 ordered for M2K-5 upgrade)
  • 500 x Meteor @€1 billion
  • 500 x 250kg AASM @€175 million (@€350,000 a piece)
  • 200 x Scalp ALCM @€160 million (@€800,000 a piece)
  • 100 x Exocet AShM @€100 million
Total (costs): ~€2.5 billion



You do realize, such a small package won't even put a dent in China's Tibeten sector. Ridiculously underpriced and under armed.

Scalp coming for less than a million euros a piece for India is not possible, even the French bought it for 850K euros. Exocet is pretty useless when a large order of SLAM-ER or Delilah can take care of both ground and sea threats @ over 250 km at decent prices.

First off , the damage 500 AASM can inflict can be accomplished by the around 50 CBU-97/SFW WCMD, we already ordered 500, another 1500 should be ordered or more. JDAM-ER, Paveway family far cheaper options and offer stand off capabilities as well. With large enough orders of weapons like Paveways, jdams, slam-er, SDB, AAGRM etc will be cheaper and we certainly need thousands of bombs.

One key aspect of fighting china is overwhelming destructive bombing, can't be achieved with a small volume of weapons, we'll end up like the french campaign in Libya (running low on weapons and unkil having to ship in tons so they can continue). Taking on china is all about heavy hitting and volume.

That said, we need to ramp up production of our own sudharshan, an order of more than 100 000 Sudharshan is a must in case must take on both China and Pak.

For 2.5 billion we can get a lot more unkil's goodies. Why waste cash on buying smaller volumes of highly priced EU weapons which bring in no severe advantage over US counter parts.


About Rafale winning fairly, we still have to watch and wait, may be swami has something up his sleeve.


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