Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions

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Philip
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Philip » 08 Feb 2012 11:39

WPS may be right about drones and their increasing role in both this and the decades to come,but right now,many are still in developmental stage and frightfully expensive.The role envisaged for manned aircraft is also to work together along with drones/UCAVs ,complementing them,not being simply replaced.

Badar is also spot on about what gen. of aircraft one would use to "bomb Lanka".It's why I feel that every aircraft that can fly in the inventory is a precious asset,that could bee later turned into UCAVs,unmanned "kamikaze" missiles,or even kept mothballed for wars.In meeting the challenge from the Sino-Pak JV,it gives us a crucial capability against both,esp. China.

However,though the N-capability of the aircraft has oft been mentioned,one would prefer a dedicated strategic bomber like a Backfire or Blackjack for the purpose-that should be able to fly to Beijing bomb it and fly back,which would require no refuellling along the way unlike a Rafale.An SU-34 would be preferable to a Rafale for this purpose,if the larger strategic bombers aren't available tough. The Rafale would be far more suited to attacking and destroying key facilities of the PRC based in Tibet,like the railway,key road and rail points,military installations,etc. ,with the support if need be of the SU-30MKIs for top cover to counter PLAAF Flankers.

It appears that the Brits were as cocksure and complacent about the result after being shortlisted,as the US were about their chances at the start.With the IAF giving its verdict,one is sure that it will influence at least another major contest in countriess which have no close "bloc" ties to any super/major power.Most of all .as said by many,it was losing to the French that was the "unkindest cut",as if it had lost out to the US,while disappointed,would not have produced such a sharp reaction and open barbs showered upon Indian from its MPs-that too over an arms deal.One thought that "democracies" were made of sterner stuff,a philosophical and intellectual meeting of the minnds, than mere buyer-seller relationships what?

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby srai » 08 Feb 2012 11:42

pragnya wrote:
silod wrote:Where are we going to deploy the first batch of A/C when they arrive from France? Jodhpur? Ambala?


The first batch of 18 Rafale fighters in flyaway condition is likely to reach the Indian skies only in 2015 which gives the IAF adequate time to carefully prepare the support infrastructure for the Rafale. At least initially, the IAF will most probably house the first squadron at Gwalior, the Mirage-2000 base. Given Indian flying conditions, the IAF will also have to ensure a relatively bird-free flying environment.


IDSA

..........................

44 facts about the MMRCA


According to this article Rafale Fighter Wins MMRCA Contract; India ‘Briefs’ Losing European Countries
...
IAF is keen the deliveries of the 126 fighters begin from mid-2015 onwards to stem its fast-eroding combat edge. Plans are in place to base the first MMRCA squadrons in the western sector against Pakistan, first Ambala and then Jodhpur, followed by Hashimara in the eastern sector against China, say sources.
...


If the IAF were to follow similar induction procedure of that of the Su-30MKI, the first Rafale base (or the first two bases) will act as a base(s) for raising new squadrons. In this case, Ambala AFS will be the base where all new Rafale squadrons are raised before being transferred to another AFS.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Badar » 08 Feb 2012 11:59

Philip wrote:However,though the N-capability of the aircraft has oft been mentioned,one would prefer a dedicated strategic bomber like a Backfire or Blackjack for the purpose-that should be able to fly to Beijing bomb it and fly back,which would require no refuellling along the way unlike a Rafale.An SU-34 would be preferable to a Rafale for this purpose,if the larger strategic bombers aren't available tough. .

I wonder if they would make and sell us a Su-34MP.

The Rafale would be far more suited to attacking and destroying key facilities of the PRC based in Tibet,like the railway,key road and rail points,military installations,etc. ,with the support if need be of the SU-30MKIs for top cover to counter PLAAF Flankers

I concur. What I found interesting was the reports/rumors that the IAF establishment has set their hearts on Rafale. I assume this fondness was primarily for capabilities than many other equally valid reasons.

With respect to PLAAF, Rafale fundamentally adds offensive punch rather than improve defenses as the Typhoon would have done. IAF institutions seem to want to deal with PLAAF aggressively. What unfolds next should be fascinating - specially in standoff/escort jammer acquisitions.
Last edited by Badar on 08 Feb 2012 12:00, edited 1 time in total.

srai
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby srai » 08 Feb 2012 12:00

Another interesting titbit on the timeline on when the IAF will be getting its Rafale and at what rate.

Rafale Fighter Wins MMRCA Contract; India ‘Briefs’ Losing European Countries
...
IAF is keen the deliveries of the 126 fighters begin from mid-2015 onwards to stem its fast-eroding combat edge. Plans are in place to base the first MMRCA squadrons in the western sector against Pakistan, first Ambala and then Jodhpur, followed by Hashimara in the eastern sector against China, say sources.

"The first MMRCA built in HAL should roll out in 2017-18. Thereafter, HAL will deliver six jets per year, which will go up to 20 per year later. HAL will achieve 85% technology absorption by the end," said a source.
...


Based on the above article, we can figure out the timeline of squadron formations for Rafale:
  • mid-2015 to 2016 -> first Rafale squadron formation with 18 x OEM built Rafales
  • 2018 to 2020 -> second Rafale squadron formation with 18 x HAL built Rafales (@6 per year delivery rate)
  • 2020 to 2021 -> third Rafale squadron formation with 18 x HAL built Rafales (@20 per year delivery rate)
  • 2021 to 2022 -> fourth Rafale squadron formation with 18 x HAL built Rafales (@20 per year delivery rate)
  • 2022 to 2023 -> fifth Rafale squadron formation with 18 x HAL built Rafales (@20 per year delivery rate)
  • 2023 to 2024 -> sixth Rafale squadron formation with 18 x HAL built Rafales (@20 per year delivery rate)
  • 2024 to 2025 -> seventh Rafale squadron formation with 18 x HAL built Rafales (@20 per year delivery rate)

If 60 more Rafale options are exercised, here is what it will look like:
  • 2025 to 2026 -> eighth Rafale squadron formation with 18 x HAL built Rafales (@20 per year delivery rate)
  • 2026 to 2027 -> ninth Rafale squadron formation with 18 x HAL built Rafales (@20 per year delivery rate)
  • 2027 to 2028 -> tenth Rafale squadron formation with 18 x HAL built Rafales (@20 per year delivery rate)

Based on the last 3 squadrons forming only after 2025, IMO, these 3 squadrons will likely replace the 3 MiG-29UPG squadrons between 2027 and 2030 timeframe.

The years between 2018-2020 is significant for another reason; it is supposed to be when LCA Mk.2 will attain IOC/FOC and production will commence. And it is also the year when the PAK-FA/FGFA will attain its IOC-1 of some sort (if news statements are to be believed). This means the HAL production facilities will be churning out 3 aircraft types (Rafale, LCA Mk.2, and FGFA) from 2020 onwards. FGFA might be a few years later though.
Last edited by srai on 08 Feb 2012 12:29, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby pragnya » 08 Feb 2012 12:23

srai wrote:According to this article Rafale Fighter Wins MMRCA Contract; India ‘Briefs’ Losing European Countries
...
IAF is keen the deliveries of the 126 fighters begin from mid-2015 onwards to stem its fast-eroding combat edge. Plans are in place to base the first MMRCA squadrons in the western sector against Pakistan, first Ambala and then Jodhpur, followed by Hashimara in the eastern sector against China, say sources.
...


If the IAF were to follow similar induction procedure of that of the Su-30MKI, the first Rafale base (or the first two bases) will act as a base(s) for raising new squadrons. In this case, Ambala AFS will be the base where all new Rafale squadrons are raised before being transferred to another AFS.


thanks srai for that link.

your link says -
Plans are in place to base the first MMRCA squadrons in the western sector against Pakistan, first Ambala and then Jodhpur, followed by Hashimara in the eastern sector against China, say sources.


won't it be logical that Rafale is stationed in gwalior as the M2K infra already exists there instead of Ambala where the infra needs to be put in place??

i am surprised at the pakistan obsession because by the time Rafale starts arriving sometime in 2015, Mig 29s would have been 'almost' upgraded which would be sufficient alongwith jags, Mig 21s and Mig 27s for the western sector not to forget SU 30MKIs already in place. i am keeping out M2Ks which would be in the process of upgrading though many unupgraded ones too will be available.

can you explain? thanks.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby srai » 08 Feb 2012 12:36

pragnya wrote:...

won't it be logical that Rafale is stationed in gwalior as the M2K infra already exists there instead of Ambala where the infra needs to be put in place??

...

can you explain? thanks.


Rafale will probably use 90-95% different infrastructure than the M2K. It is for the most part a completely different plane with only some avionics (in M2K UPG) and MICA being shared. Everything else is different AFIK.

As far as Ambala AFS being the first base goes, there are several articles corroborating this. I have not seen Gwalior being mentioned other than in your post on this forum.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Badar » 08 Feb 2012 12:49

pragnya wrote:your link says -
Plans are in place to base the first MMRCA squadrons in the western sector against Pakistan, first Ambala and then Jodhpur, followed by Hashimara in the eastern sector against China, say sources.

won't it be logical that Rafale is stationed in gwalior as the M2K infra already exists there instead of Ambala where the infra needs to be put in place??

I am only guessing, but perhaps Ambala will be first to get the MAFI upgrades? Certainly Hashimara is in Phase I of that program. First squadrons would definitely be in the western theater so as to be close to the test, evaluation and tactics development institutions. Gwalior would suggest itself as it is the home of TACDE.

i am surprised at the pakistan obsession because by the time Rafale starts arriving sometime in 2015, Mig 29s would have been 'almost' upgraded which would be sufficient alongwith jags, Mig 21s and Mig 27s for the western sector not to forget SU 30MKIs already in place. i am keeping out M2Ks which would be in the process of upgrading though many unupgraded ones too will be available.

can you explain? thanks.

Rafale can and will be employed to either fronts. Peacetime stations are not necessarily indicative of wartime deployments. If necessary the whole Rafale force could be concentrated on the western front or the eastern front as an extreme case. Air Forces are very agile in that aspect and the static infrastructure in both theaters has to be ready to accommodate them in numbers.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby rajkumar » 08 Feb 2012 13:01

Rahul M wrote:incidentally, my blog seems to attract a paki who curses the TSP thread honchos in chaste pakjabi. :lol:


Can I have the URL for your blog please?

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Sumeet » 08 Feb 2012 14:02

Other than its awesome technical capability and how it fits India's air strategy of which IAF is best judge, below are some reasons i LOVE Rafale as MMRCA.

Rafale International -- Cooperation & Independence


The RAFALE program is entirely driven and fully mastered by one single deciding country, France, which has deliberately taken the political choice to cooperate with India in the Defence strategic field with long term perspectives.

In this frame, RAFALE International proposes a wide and complete technological and industrial cooperation package. This package addresses software as well as hardware, including deliveries of all necessary tools and source codes, without any restrictions whatsoever, aimed at providing India with full capacity to produce, to maintain and to continuously improve the aircraft in the country.

RAFALE International has already obtained all full authorizations of the French Government (as required by French Law) to sell and to export to India the most recent version of the combat aircraft, and, in the same way, to transfer to India the corresponding (even most sensitive) technologies, as well as the production license with no particular limitations.


RAFALE International therefore is entirely in a position to honour its strong and firm commitment, without having to ask for any additional clearance, either within France or from any third party.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Neshant » 08 Feb 2012 14:05

i find it to be sad news that we are financing the R&D of foreign countries and not our own by buying these hugely expensive planes.

i understand they are needed. but its sad nonetheless that the LCA is nowhere near fully operational.

the IAF should hold off any further purchases as UAVs and UCAVs are entering the mainstream. a lot cheaper to build, operate and maintain and are able to perform a variety of tasks.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Sumeet » 08 Feb 2012 14:21

Neshant,

On indigenous front work is happening in parallel on LCA, AMCA and Future UCAV. Lets not be too pessimistic. While there is scope for more funding, improved cooperation between industry and armed forces there is nothing to be sad.

For fighter industry you need to master 5 crucial tech:
1) Radar Engineering
2) Airframe design (including advance material, structures ) & Aerodynamics
3) Flight Control System
4) Engine technology
5) Modern & efficient manufacturing processes, tools and technology.

Avionics and missiles you can throw from here and there but above 5 are MUST. (Not saying that you shouldn't master these two as well but above 5 are fundamental) We are making steady progress on all these fronts. This deal will at a minimum give us a big boost in furthering ourselves in the 5th area. Other benefits that we may accrue in future remain to be seen.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby sudhan » 08 Feb 2012 14:46

rajkumar wrote:
Rahul M wrote:incidentally, my blog seems to attract a paki who curses the TSP thread honchos in chaste pakjabi. :lol:


Can I have the URL for your blog please?


From the previous page :)

http://brfrahulm.blogspot.in/2012/02/mr ... india.html

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Sumeet » 08 Feb 2012 14:53

Rahul M wrote:The MRCA Story And What It Means For India
http://brfrahulm.blogspot.in/2012/02/mr ... india.html


Rahul great blog. Please consider adding this little known fact that France approved at lightning speed modifying M2K for Israeli PGMs in Kargil war. W/o this action it would have been difficult for us to win it. Plus you may want to mention that Rafale being a nuclear capable a/c (Will carry ASMP-A cruise missile) India may use it as part of its airborne strategic deterrence.

Second, if memory serves me right Meteor for Rafale would have single way datalink. I read this long time back (3-4 years ago). So you may want to verify that piece of info for dark side of Rafale.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MBDA_Meteor#Rafale

You will like this article and you may reference it from your blog and include its points to make your blog even more complete.
http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articl ... india.html


(Source: defense-aerospace.com; published Feb. 1, 2012)
By Giovanni de Briganti

PARIS --- While many observers cite technology transfer, prices and performance as being major factors in India’s selection of the Rafale as its next-generation fighter, reality is very different even if these factors obviously did play a significant role.

In the same way that it is true that Rafale lost several competitions through no fault of its own, it must be recognized that its victory in India was also won, to a great extent, through no fault of its own. The real reason for its victory is political, and the long memory of Indian politicians was a major contributing factor.

This is not to say, however, that Rafale’s own impressive qualities had nothing to do with its selection. The Indian Air Force, which was extensively briefed by the French air force in the autumn, was particularly impressed by its operational performance during the Libyan bombing campaign and in Afghanistan. Rafale also has a naval variant which could be of future interest to India, given its plans to buy and build aircraft carriers, while the recent decision to upgrade India’s Mirage 2000H fighters will simplify the air force’s logistics chain, as these will share with Rafale many weapons and other equipment.

The Indian Air Force also is a satisfied user of long standing of French fighters, going back to the Dassault Ouragan in the 1950s. It was also particularly appreciative of the performance of its Mirages during the 1999 Kargil campaign against Pakistan, and of the support it then obtained from France. During that campaign, India obtained French clearance – and possibly more - to urgently adapt Israeli and Russian-supplied laser-guided bombs to the Mirages, which were thus able to successfully engage high-altitude targets that Indian MiG-23s and MiG-27s had been unable to reach.

Rafale was preferred because of lower costs, and the Indian air force's familiarity with French warplanes such as the Mirage, Bloomberg reported Feb. 1 quoting an Indian source who asked not be named. "Unit-wise, the French plane is much cheaper than the Eurofighter. Moreover, the Indian air force, which is well equipped with French fighters, is favouring the French," the source said.

To Indian officials, France’s steadfastness as a military ally contrasted strongly with that of the United States, which stopped F-16 deliveries to Pakistan (but kept the money) when it found it expedient to do so, and slowed or vetoed delivery of components for Light Combat Aircraft that India was developing. And, of course, the 1998 arms embargo, decreed by the US after India’s nuclear test in May of that year, left a very bad taste in Indian mouths. France, on the contrary, was the only Western nation not to impose sanctions on that occasion.

That, Indian sources say, was New Delhi’s real reason for eliminating Boeing and Lockheed Martin from the fighter competition; India has resolved, these sources say, to buy only second-line equipment from the U.S., such as transport (C-17, C-130J) or maritime patrol aircraft (P-8I). Vital weapons such as missiles and fighters, when they cannot be locally produced, will remain the preserve of France and Russia.


Political considerations were also a significant factor playing against Rafale’s final competitor, the Eurofighter Typhoon. As this aircraft is produced by a consortium of four nations, each with different foreign policies and different attitudes and tolerances to arms exports, Indian officials were a bit nervous about their ultimate reliability as a single supplier.

Germany is a long-standing Indian aviation partner, and a respected role model for Indian politicians, many of whom were educated there. German companies – essentially the former Messerschmitt-Boelkow-Blohm, now part of EADS - helped Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. develop both the LCA and the Advanced Light Helicopter, now called Dhruv. These links were the reason the Eurofighter bid was led by Germany’s Cassidian, and not BAE Systems, the former colonial power. But Germany had dithered over technology transfer for LCA, soft-pedaled on ALH tech transfer when German pacifists raised their eyebrows, and coughed when India almost went to war with Pakistan over Kargil and Kashmir, so in the final analysis it could not be considered a reliable supplier of major weapons.

Italy has never sold a major weapon to India, and so could bring neither influence nor reputation to support Eurofighter, while the third partner, Spain, is totally absent from the Indian military landscape.

This left BAE Systems as the best-known Eurofighter partner in India, and so by default as its ultimate public face. BAE in 2003 sold £1.5 billion’s worth of Hawk jet trainers to India, with a follow-on, £500 million order in 2010. However, its previous major sale to India was the Jaguar light attack aircraft in the 1970s. In fact, this aircraft was jointly developed by Britain and France on a 50/50 basis, and while it was license-produced by HAL it was never really successful as a fighter. Furthermore, France could claim as much benefit from its Indian career as BAE.

Taken together, the Eurofighter partner nations posed an even thornier problem: in case of war, German law prohibits deliveries of weapons and spares, Italian law and public opinions would demand an embargo, while Spanish legislation is murky. What would happen, Indian politicians must have wondered, if after buying the Eurofighter they went to war? Would spares and weapons be forthcoming, or would they be embargoed? The political risk was obviously too big to take.

Weapons also played a significant role in persuading India to opt for Rafale: not only is its weapons range mostly French-made, and thus not subject to a third-party embargo, but so are all of its sensors. Eurofighter, whose air-to-air missiles include the US-made AIM-120 Amraam and the German-led IRIS-T, and whose primary air-to-ground weapon is the US-made Paveway, was obviously at a competitive disadvantage in this respect.

Furthermore, the Rafale is nuclear-capable and will replace the Mirage 2000N in French service as the carrier of the newly-upgraded ASMP/A nuclear stand-off missile; it is also capable of firing the AM-39 Exocet missile, giving it an anti-ship capability that its competitors do not have. India is also interested in fitting its BrahMos supersonic missile to a wide range of its combat aircraft, and Rafale could apparently carry it.

Given that India had sworn to buy the cheapest compliant competitor, it would have been unable to justify picking the Rafale had this not been offered at the lower price. While official figures have not been released, and indeed may never be, initial reports from New Delhi claim that Rafale was offered at a unit price of $4-$5 million less than Eurofighter, which is a surprisingly large advantage given the French aircraft’s reputation of being high-priced.

The French offer also featured substantially lower costs of ownership, according to the same reports, thanks to lower fuel consumption and simpler maintenance requirements.

If true, these figures imply the French offer undercut Eurofighter by over $600 million, which is a large enough difference for one French insider to wonder whether Dassault Aviation will ever make any money on the contract.

But, even if it doesn’t, the Indian contract gives Rafale instant legitimacy, not only because of the thoroughness and transparency of the bidding process, but also because India is the only country to have fought four and a half major wars since 1948, and so knows something about air combat.

For Dassault, the Rafale program will now remain active, with a stabilized production line, for decades to come, and the company will have that much more time to find additional customers. Keeping its production line and supply chain humming at an economically-viable rate are sufficiently valuable achievements to push immediate profits into the sidelines. Supporting 126 – and possibly 206, if India buys an optional second batch – combat aircraft, and providing spares, fixes and upgrades over the next 40 years, will generate gigantic profits, and this more than justified lowering Dassault’s notoriously high profit margins.

In fact, as one industry official noted, "this is France's answer to 'Al Yamamah', but with twice as many aircraft," drawing a parallel with the UK's sale of Tornado fighters and related services to Saudi Arabia, which was instrumental in keeping BAE Systems prosperous throughout the 1980s and 1990s.

And, as French Defense Minister Gérard Longuet told reporters during an impromptu press conference in Parliament, France may soon find “that good news travels in formation,” implying that further, long-deferred contracts might soon be announced.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Sumeet » 08 Feb 2012 14:59

What are chances of fitting Brahmos-A on Rafale ? Any thoughts on that ...

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby nrshah » 08 Feb 2012 15:14

Based on the above article, we can figure out the timeline of squadron formations for Rafale:

mid-2015 to 2016 -> first Rafale squadron formation with 18 x OEM built Rafales
2018 to 2020 -> second Rafale squadron formation with 18 x HAL built Rafales (@6 per year delivery rate)
2020 to 2021 -> third Rafale squadron formation with 18 x HAL built Rafales (@20 per year delivery rate)
2021 to 2022 -> fourth Rafale squadron formation with 18 x HAL built Rafales (@20 per year delivery rate)
2022 to 2023 -> fifth Rafale squadron formation with 18 x HAL built Rafales (@20 per year delivery rate)
2023 to 2024 -> sixth Rafale squadron formation with 18 x HAL built Rafales (@20 per year delivery rate)
2024 to 2025 -> seventh Rafale squadron formation with 18 x HAL built Rafales (@20 per year delivery rate)

If 60 more Rafale options are exercised, here is what it will look like:

2025 to 2026 -> eighth Rafale squadron formation with 18 x HAL built Rafales (@20 per year delivery rate)
2026 to 2027 -> ninth Rafale squadron formation with 18 x HAL built Rafales (@20 per year delivery rate)
2027 to 2028 -> tenth Rafale squadron formation with 18 x HAL built Rafales (@20 per year delivery rate)


Sharing a different though here,

Assumptions:
1) India excercise option for 63 addtional aircrafts
2) Seperate production line for 100 or so aircrafts is feasible (Infact, here i assume it is so considering HAL product line is expected to churn 108 aircrafts)

Thesis:
I would like we excercise entire 63 aircrafts and addtional 40-45 on the top of the same. This will make Indian made aircrafts around 200 for which we set 2 seperate assembly line.

One by HAL which will start chruning from 2018- 2025.
Second by some private sector company - Say TATA/Mahindra. Although I agree they dont have experience, but they have expereince of managing assembly line. And being in Private sector, i expect them to quick learner. Even than, let us assume, the second line starts working under HAL line initially for outsourcing and gets stabilised in next 5 years when it starts doing major job itself. Say from 2023, It starts chruning out aircrafts itself. In next 7-8 years, it churns another 100 aircrafts.

I know there will be problems but than we have big dady HAL guiding the newcomers.

Advantages:

Today we had article claiming some 30000 new tech savvy human capital generating out of the deal. Why not leverage the same making it around 40000 (additional 10000 with private sector).
Further, faster induction from 2023
A new player learning the tricks will help in the longer run who can take the load of AMCA when it comes with HAL churning FGFA and this line AMCA
Internal Competition and its benefits.

Gurus, Please point out fallacy in the idea and help improve

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby kelesis » 08 Feb 2012 15:41

http://www.rafale.co.in/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=10&Itemid=140&lang=en

Offsets & Spin-offs

In terms of combat effectiveness but also in terms of critical technologies, the RAFALE combat aircraft is at the forefront of the technical innovation.

Beyond the RAFALE itself, the mastering of the supersonic fighters cutting edge technologies will reach numerous applications, such as upgrade of other military aircraft, future development of a national combat aircraft as well as Unmanned Combat Air Vehicles (U.C.A.V.)
Spin-off from the military technologies largely benefit civilian aircraft for aerodynamics, structural design, man-machine interface, system integration and, out of the field of aeronautics, the proposed technologies have multi-fields applications, generating a technological quantum leap for the entire Indian industry (space activities, telecommunications, car and railway transport industries…)


Strategy & Partnership

France is nowadays the only country, in the field of defence & aeronautics, apart from the USA, to own and master in full independence the entire spectrum of the necessary critical technologies, requested for the design, development, production and upgrade of a combat aircraft ( along with the comprehensive set of its associated equipment and armament ).This is the result of a very strong, wise and continuous political will, not to rely on any other country for these crucial technologies, which are the key driver for the national sovereignty of a country.

India, today, with its constantly increasing role on the international scene and its blooming economy, does indeed share the same ambition as the one already developed by France for several decades.

This is the reason why a very reliable and trustworthy partnership in such a strategic area between India and France makes so much sense.


The Rafale website for India is very interesting. I understand that nuke tech transfers are part of the offer, but also UCAV, space cooperation and Rafale M for the indian navy.

I remember discussions with Typhoon supporters saying that space, nuke or UACV cooperation were not part of the deal. Obviously it was not part of the Typhoon deal...

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Singha » 08 Feb 2012 15:56

I guessing IAF will not like to wait so long and instead they will order the 60-80 addl units from france production line in parallel with the french AF rafales they are producing. same thing was done in Sukhoi.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby nrshah » 08 Feb 2012 16:28

Marten/Singha

May be I did not choose the correct words. I am saying let us close the deal for 218 aircrafts right from the word go. No options to be exercised later. Take the delivery of 18 aircrafts directly from France. Rest 200 to be manufactured in India in Parallel – One by HAL and second in hands of private sector.

With respect to faster delivery by France, I agree but the idea is to develop a second line of assembly to kick start private sector participation in aeronautics in the country. Beside, going by current structure and opinion of most of us, option for next 63 will be exercised by 2018 – 2020 with actual delivery around starting from 2021-2024 keeping 3 years delivery time as for the first 18. Anyway, we will start getting additional aircrafts from the second assembly line operated by Private sector from 2023 onwards (5 years after HAL line considering new player will have initial problem and will take some time to start the production). Also, in the interim, it can assist HAL for its line and thereby also enhancing HAL line productivity.

Thanks for your feedback and seeking more

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby member_20296 » 08 Feb 2012 16:42

Its Right Time to involve Private Companies in Tejas so they start preparing for productionising Tejas. IMHO Tejas is better suited to be given to Private Companies and may be 10 Yrs down the line we can share some work load of Rafale, AMCA and FGFA with them. HAL will be able to guide private companies very well for Tejas as they know it so well.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby nrshah » 08 Feb 2012 16:55

Raghuraj,

I understand and I concur on your thoughts. But the lucuna, as I understand, is that no private sector company will involve unless there is assured order. Which company will invest hundreds of Crores into assembly line for Tejas without firm commitment on the part of IAF/GOI for XX numbers of aircrafts.

As of now, I dont see that assured numbers coming, May be by 2018-2020 and deliveries well after 2025 will not serve the purpose.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Badar » 08 Feb 2012 18:01

Apropos the second Rafale line: I have suggested before that we might need an manufacturing organization parallel to HAL for the explicit purpose of serving as its competitor. India is likely to manufacture aircraft in enough numbers that it can afford the cost and complexity of a second "factory" organization. Initial work can be evenly distributed. Additional work could be awarded depending upon performance or they could bid for it. Anything to light the fire under HAL.

The second organization (which I modestly propose be called BAL) can remain a public service undertaking as I am a bit skeptical of private industry being able to absorb/handle this level of tech or work on the large time frames. The FSU, despite being a communist nation that owned all enterprises, was able to stoke fierce competition between its various design houses and production factories resulting to FSU hitting above its weight in military technology.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Avid » 08 Feb 2012 18:30

Perhaps NAL/ADL could be extended in their mandate to cover production? At the same time HAL could be extended in its mandate to add design + R&D. Would provide for two companies that compete fiercely for projects.

That said:
The option for 63 more is likely to be exercised early on (within 2 years of 1st arrival), and will be similar to SU-30MKI -- i.e. if HAL hiccups during absorption of technology, setup of production line, and at the same time need (for whatever) is seen to ramp up induction -- the option for 60+ will be exercised for production and delivery from France (likely ~40 -- MoD seems to have consistently ordered ~40 additional).

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby merlin » 08 Feb 2012 18:35

Agree on the second organization. If not for anything for competition.

But it should be private since even if the second org is public sector how will it develop its expertise. Public or private it will start from the same level field.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby merlin » 08 Feb 2012 18:39

In fact to get a head start, something like a Tata + Mahindra JV which buys out Taneja Aerospace would be good start on this.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Badar » 08 Feb 2012 19:39

I would leave NAL alone - it should be left as a pure civilian tech only organization and hopefully Embargo Proof. Ideally the two design houses and two production houses should also be completely independent of each other so as to work in whatever combination necessary.

The raising of the second production organization would have to come primarily by drawing from the existing HAL cadre and expanding from there. I don't think there is much talent in the private sector for this level of manufacturing tech. Private sector involvement should initially be limited to components and then taken forward from there.

This does mean that the second organization will likely be of no use for in the short term for Rafale program and the like - it will be a longer term undertaking with longer term benefit.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby agupta » 08 Feb 2012 20:20

Avid wrote:Perhaps NAL/ADL could be extended in their mandate to cover production? At the same time HAL could be extended in its mandate to add design + R&D. Would provide for two companies that compete fiercely for projects.



HAL already does Design + R&D. They had a LCA Design Bureau for a long time while ADA was coming up...not sure how they ended up, but IIRC, both their Aircraft and Helicopter Design Bureaus continue to operate within HAL

That may be more part of the problem rather than the solution - since it gives them too much "inner iteration" flexibility that allows lack of clarity in hand-overs to come in. NAL has more of a foundational technology role, but does do Design in areas perhaps outside HAL's core commercial interests and bandwidth

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby nrshah » 08 Feb 2012 20:59

Badar wrote:The raising of the second production organization would have to come primarily by drawing from the existing HAL cadre and expanding from there. I don't think there is much talent in the private sector for this level of manufacturing tech. Private sector involvement should initially be limited to components and then taken forward from there.

This does mean that the second organization will likely be of no use for in the short term for Rafale program and the like - it will be a longer term undertaking with longer term benefit.


Ok, I suggest sell of some part of HAL to private sector. Start with say IJT/AJT assembly line as they will be simpler not requiring very high tech process to give them hands off experience initially or helicopter division.

Just extention of earlier thought if that is considered more effective and low risk solution.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Eric Leiderman » 08 Feb 2012 21:01

A private organisation has the flexibility to attract talent from a world wide pool
For eg on the split up of the USSR when high end talent was a begging if our aeronautical sector was not so rigidly controlled as far as salary scales etc, we might have landed a few big fish ,(Just like the chinese did)
Europe is going through a turbulant economical phase and money can attract the brains we require.
Even if a few scientists are poached fm the PSU's by a private organisation its all for the good of the industry.
The US has been doing this for a while and still attracts top talent from around the globe because of the flexibility of visas and high end salarys.
There are enough inherent benifits to give this a go.
In addition HAL is too huge it should be split up.

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Italy buys JSF over Typhoon?

Postby Mayuresh » 08 Feb 2012 21:52

http://theaviationist.com/2012/02/08/f35-typhoon/

A freelance Italian Journo (quite a respected aviation journo) mentioned on his blog that Italy has decided to buy the JSF as it is cheaper than the typhoon. Can someone confirm if this news is true? it could have appeared in Italian newspapers but since I don't speak Italian, I have no clue of knowing it.

So all this talk that the UK has been indulging in, urging India to reconsider its decision sounds absolutely hypocritical. They are probably better off telling their manufacturing partner to buy more typhoons instead.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Cybaru » 08 Feb 2012 22:11

srai wrote:An
If 60 more Rafale options are exercised, here is what it will look like:
  • 2025 to 2026 -> eighth Rafale squadron formation with 18 x HAL built Rafales (@20 per year delivery rate)
  • 2026 to 2027 -> ninth Rafale squadron formation with 18 x HAL built Rafales (@20 per year delivery rate)
  • 2027 to 2028 -> tenth Rafale squadron formation with 18 x HAL built Rafales (@20 per year delivery rate)

Based on the last 3 squadrons forming only after 2025, IMO, these 3 squadrons will likely replace the 3 MiG-29UPG squadrons between 2027 and 2030 timeframe.

The years between 2018-2020 is significant for another reason; it is supposed to be when LCA Mk.2 will attain IOC/FOC and production will commence. And it is also the year when the PAK-FA/FGFA will attain its IOC-1 of some sort (if news statements are to be believed). This means the HAL production facilities will be churning out 3 aircraft types (Rafale, LCA Mk.2, and FGFA) from 2020 onwards. FGFA might be a few years later though.


I suspect there might be an Indian Navy order of 40-50 as well. LCA-Mk2 is going to be some time away (2020 atleast. So I feel somehow Rafale-M will make its debut in the NAVY as well with an initial order of 10 or so dual seaters along with the order of 18(IAF) from France.
Last edited by Cybaru on 08 Feb 2012 22:24, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Badar » 08 Feb 2012 22:18

Chances of a third choice other than nLCA/MiG-29 in IN service are not negligible. nLCA is {sigh} ... well moving on to the fulcrum the MiG-29K was a forced choice as we had to buy a Russian air group if we wanted the "free" carrier.

Given a free choice and the likely non-arrival anytime soon of the nLCA the pool of likely suspects aren't too many.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby arthuro » 08 Feb 2012 23:00

Exellent brand new RAFALE M video[/color][/size]

in cockpit, 19 minutes of extasy :

http://www.patricksaviation.com/videos/ ... ciel/5599/
Last edited by Rahul M on 08 Feb 2012 23:01, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: do mind the large fonts in technicolor, we are not vision impaired.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby svinayak » 08 Feb 2012 23:20

Marten wrote:Is there a single private sector company that is interested in manufacturing or assembling these birds? HAL seems to be the only option.

Every country/govt supports the private industry to setup mfg units to build such capabilities.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Lalmohan » 08 Feb 2012 23:50

yes and no
there are different levels of manufacturing sophistication - the higher levels take state sponsorship but cannot be magicked out of thin air - instead have to be developed over decades of trial and error (and private investment)

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Sanku » 09 Feb 2012 00:05

Marten wrote:Is there a single private sector company that is interested in manufacturing or assembling these birds?


You are really asking that Maten Saar? :wink: You know what the private sector is like (anywhere in the world) let the risk be common and the profit private. Let the tax payer pay for DARPA :wink: and basic research and prototype and what not, we will consider doing it when we have "assured orders" with given profits.

:wink:

No I am not a lefty, but I dont think the crony captialism "private" industry is particularly different from "public" sector.

Both work or do not work based on the "hand" driving them, everywhere.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Prem » 09 Feb 2012 00:52

UAE decison on Rafale will decide the destiny of M2009. Is there any other buyer out there beside India? IAF will try to fill in the numbers with UAE andQatari Mirages and then go for LCA mk2, hopefully with indian made engine.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby bhavani » 09 Feb 2012 02:07

I have a question regrading the rafale's and Typhoons maximum payload. How come Rafale can carry more than typhoon even though its engines have less than typhoon. rafale at low level reminds me of A-6E intruder, one of my favorite aircraft's of all times. similarly A-6E could carry a lot more over large distances compared to F/A-18 "nonut".

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby ramana » 09 Feb 2012 02:20

The maximum use of composite structures which allows more of the engine power to be used for payload.

See the structure weights for both planes in the table someone posted.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby anishns » 09 Feb 2012 03:06

Won't the brotherly ummah virtually give it away to our westerly neighbors? ... I am sure they would be more than interested!

Jhujar wrote:UAE decison on Rafale will decide the destiny of M2009. Is there any other buyer out there beside India? IAF will try to fill in the numbers with UAE andQatari Mirages and then go for LCA mk2, hopefully with indian made engine.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Philip » 09 Feb 2012 04:36

I doubt that it is now worth picking up cast-off M-2000s (which we will have to "tweak" for IAF requirements) when we are upgrading ours at high cost and the money would be better spent on new Rafales.If we need numbers in the event the LCA drags on,there are other more cost-effective options.


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