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INS Chakra joins IN - Where is the Mithai?

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Re: INS Chakra joins IN - Where is the Mithai?

Postby chola » 10 Sep 2017 16:45

Austin wrote:Its dirt cheap considering no one would give us that and you cant put a price to it.

Western Countries wont even blink an eye at the query of leasing SSN


It is a great point if it were our original lease. But why a third? Wouldn't $2.5B invested in the local industry that already built Arihant and is building its followons be better? I can't imagine our SSN would not be a variant of the Arihant.

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Re: INS Chakra joins IN - Where is the Mithai?

Postby shiv » 10 Sep 2017 17:06



Negotiations are currently on to embed a team of Indian shipbuilders to go through the refit process – which will basically build up the entire submarine again from an empty hull – to give them hands-on experience with complex submarine technology.

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Re: INS Chakra joins IN - Where is the Mithai?

Postby Karthik S » 10 Sep 2017 18:07

Aren't we little late to be doing this? Or may be, the engineering embedded there would provide inputs as we build our SSNs here. Even then, we could have asked few Russians on come over and help us out, as was likely case with Arihant.

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Re: INS Chakra joins IN - Where is the Mithai?

Postby shiv » 10 Sep 2017 20:05

Karthik S wrote:Aren't we little late to be doing this? Or may be, the engineering embedded there would provide inputs as we build our SSNs here. Even then, we could have asked few Russians on come over and help us out, as was likely case with Arihant.

That video by Shiv Aroor interviewing Sandeep Unnithan is informative in this regard. India needs the Chakra itself to train more and more crews faster. And we are going to need more trained people for greater numbers of vessels being produced.

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Re: INS Chakra joins IN - Where is the Mithai?

Postby Aditya G » 10 Sep 2017 21:35

chetak wrote:^^^^^^^
@third nuclear attack submarine


I had posted this news months ago. :)


author means 3rd - including Chakra-I and Chakra-II (the existing INS Chakra).

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Re: INS Chakra joins IN - Where is the Mithai?

Postby Indranil » 10 Sep 2017 23:25

Agree with you Austin. In this respect Russia's help has been amazing. Also, $2.5 Billion is indeed a cheap price.

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Re: INS Chakra joins IN - Where is the Mithai?

Postby Pratyush » 11 Sep 2017 15:04

Indranil wrote:Agree with you Austin. In this respect Russia's help has been amazing. Also, $2.5 Billion is indeed a cheap price.


Really, does this 2.5 billion give us ownership of the boat for her entire life or just 10 years.

Can any one answer this question with any degree of certainty.


Then we can decide that it is cheap or not.

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Re: INS Chakra joins IN - Where is the Mithai?

Postby Prasad » 11 Sep 2017 15:24

Given we're talking about our workers going there to work on the sub refit/build, I'd say it is sort of worth it. Plus as Austin says, we won't really get one from anyone else and who knows what else we're getting for the money? Perhaps even a case of the sub that was vizag for an extended refit and suddenly came out after arihant launch. Some things are better left unexplored?

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Re: INS Chakra joins IN - Where is the Mithai?

Postby Karthik S » 11 Sep 2017 15:31

Pratyush wrote:
Indranil wrote:Agree with you Austin. In this respect Russia's help has been amazing. Also, $2.5 Billion is indeed a cheap price.


Really, does this 2.5 billion give us ownership of the boat for her entire life or just 10 years.

Can any one answer this question with any degree of certainty.


Then we can decide that it is cheap or not.


On paper looks like we'd be paying $2.5B to lease the sub for 10 years. But as others are saying, there could be *TnC apply clause.

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Re: INS Chakra joins IN - Where is the Mithai?

Postby Pratyush » 11 Sep 2017 15:34

I have never understood the indian way of working . The ability to design and build one boat should be transferable to other boats. But we treat it as one boat learning. To be repeated with every boat that we are going to build.

I mean you have the workers with the skills of building submarines. Give them a new design and specifications. They can translate it to reality.

Or the skills of a worker are not transferable.

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Re: INS Chakra joins IN - Where is the Mithai?

Postby chola » 11 Sep 2017 16:28

Pratyush wrote:
Indranil wrote:Agree with you Austin. In this respect Russia's help has been amazing. Also, $2.5 Billion is indeed a cheap price.


Really, does this 2.5 billion give us ownership of the boat for her entire life or just 10 years.

Can any one answer this question with any degree of certainty.


Then we can decide that it is cheap or not.


Unkil's greatest and bestest SSN, Virginia class, costs $1.7B each (in fact, the procurement of 10 boats of this class created a minor tempest on the Beltway because of its record cost of $17B.)

I am sure the Arihant team can get us a fairly good SSN with $2.5B if not the Virginia class.

And to be perfectly clear, that $2.5B is for a lease not ownership.

Again, if it were for our first nuke sub, before we started buildung the Arihant, I would agree completely that it would have been priceless and this amount worth it. Now with our own SSBN already in the water and our team in place, I am not so sure.

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Re: INS Chakra joins IN - Where is the Mithai?

Postby Austin » 11 Sep 2017 16:38

Well the best way to find out a fair price for lease is to do a Global Tender and then see which country participates it and what is the cost and other T & C for Lease ,May be the French and US would lease at a cost

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Re: INS Chakra joins IN - Where is the Mithai?

Postby Karthik S » 11 Sep 2017 16:44

The point is more about time of delivery than money. From Shiv Aroor and Sandeep's video, they said first SSN can be expected in 6 7 years. When we have our own boat coming in 6 7 years, wouldn't it be better to invest that money and make one more in India itself than pay $2.5 for a lease sub that'll arrive in the same time.

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Re: INS Chakra joins IN - Where is the Mithai?

Postby Pratyush » 11 Sep 2017 17:29

Austin wrote:Well the best way to find out a fair price for lease is to do a Global Tender and then see which country participates it and what is the cost and other T & C for Lease ,May be the French and US would lease at a cost


Why have a global tender. Make do with what you have.

In our case we already have the arihant. Use it as a starting point and build the boats. It will be cheaper and cost effective.

Regarding the slow build times. They can be improved with experience.

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Re: INS Chakra joins IN - Where is the Mithai?

Postby Austin » 11 Sep 2017 17:34

Making SSBN and SSN are two different task and needs different specialization , we still have a long way to go wrt to fleet of SSBN

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Re: INS Chakra joins IN - Where is the Mithai?

Postby Pratyush » 11 Sep 2017 18:00

Well use the arihant and the template for SSN and aridaman and follow on as the template for SSBN.

Build the arihant based design in mumbai and the aridaman can continue in vizag. Problem solved.

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Re: INS Chakra joins IN - Where is the Mithai?

Postby Austin » 11 Sep 2017 18:19

Pratyush wrote:Well use the arihant and the template for SSN and aridaman and follow on as the template for SSBN.

Build the arihant based design in mumbai and the aridaman can continue in vizag. Problem solved.


Hehehehe Alas if Life of That Simple we could have built an SSBN 30 years back

I would suggest any one interested in SSN/SSBN development/construction should read Norman Polmar authoritive work on the subject

https://www.amazon.com/Cold-War-Submari ... 1574885308

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Re: INS Chakra joins IN - Where is the Mithai?

Postby Pratyush » 11 Sep 2017 18:57

The propulsion is solved and it works. It can always be optimised further. The rest to be built around it.

So it's not that big a challenge.

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Re: INS Chakra joins IN - Where is the Mithai?

Postby Indranil » 11 Sep 2017 20:33

Would USA lease us a Virginia class for $2.5B?

I think we don't understand the cost of operating an SSN/SSBN. Also funding for the desi SSNs are not affected by this lease. It only bolsters it because we need to train our men. We have been training our men who will man these boats. We will now also train our men who will build these boats.

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Re: INS Chakra joins IN - Where is the Mithai?

Postby chola » 11 Sep 2017 20:49

The US and Russia with their long history now have separate development lines for their SSNs and SSBNs. But when they started out, their SSBNs were variants of their SSNs.

Hell, the first US SSBN, the Washington, was rebuilt from a Skipjack SSN hull! (The first Soviet SSBN, Hotel class, derived from their November SSNs.)

We could be like the French who got their SSBNs first then their SSNs. The French Barracuda uses the same tech as the Triomphant SSBN.

But most went with the SSN first like the US/USSR and then used that as a base for their SSBN. The UK Resolution SSBN was a stretched version of the Valiant SSN and the chini Type 92 was an extended Type 91 attack sub.

The point is that historically all of the nuke sub operators today had started with SSN/SSBN of common origins. I am entirely certain we will build our attack nuke based on the Arihant. Not on the Akula/Chakra.

So all I'm saying is if it would not better investing our $2.5B internally with the group that will build our SSN.

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Re: INS Chakra joins IN - Where is the Mithai?

Postby Pratyush » 11 Sep 2017 21:02

Indranil wrote:Would USA lease us a Virginia class for $2.5B?

I think we don't understand the cost of operating an SSN/SSBN. Also funding for the desi SSNs are not affected by this lease. It only bolsters it because we need to train our men. We have been training our men who will man these boats. We will now also train our men who will build these boats.


Every rupee that is spent overseas is 1 Rupee less for domestic programs.

So it will be effecting domestic program.

The argument of training builders is false as we have enough men with sub building experience to enlarge our program if we so chose.

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Re: INS Chakra joins IN - Where is the Mithai?

Postby Indranil » 11 Sep 2017 22:46

The rupees for the SSNs/SSBNs comes from a separate pile. This acquisition is not in place of our desi SSNs,. This acquisition is for our desi SSNs.

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Re: INS Chakra joins IN - Where is the Mithai?

Postby Philip » 12 Sep 2017 14:13

Great news! What I've been advocating/hinting for aeons,good to see commonsense has prevailed.Russia has a large stock of Akulas.The RuN itself has been using unfinished hulls and eqpt. of Sov. era subs and upgrading some mothballed N-subs too to bring them upto current cutting edge stds. equipped with the latest missiles,sensors and weaponry at a much lower cost than building them afresh,also saving valuable time. The US too has been converting some of its SSBNs into SSGNs.Chakra-3 might feature more lethal missiles that we've already developed for the SSBNs,like the K-15 or plans for hyper-BMos in the future.The Zircon hyper-SSM is going to enter service with the RuN next yr.,our BMos-L and BMos-H are also in planned/dev. stages.It would be prudent to plan for these subs to carry them .In any case,Kalibir,extended-range Klubs could be fitted immediately to both the Chakra and our 9 Kilos,making them even more potent .

Possessing at least 3,preferably 4 Akula SSGN boats of Akula2/3 std.,fitting them with tech from even Yasen subs and perhaps even from the new classes being built (there are supposed new torpedo firing tech reducing launch noise to almost zero and new N-reactor pumps,etc. even more silent),will give us a distinct advantage over China in the stakes in the Indo-Asia-Pacific waters.The Akulas are large boats and can carry around 40 weapons of various types.Possessing 3 will allow us to have at least one on patrol at any time,while the other two are returning from patrol with one in harbour for any refit/maintenance purposes.These SSGNs would/should be tasked to carry our most potent anti-ship and land attack missiles.The 6 SSNs in addition will give the IN the freedom to form a forward line of defence against the PLAN beyond the Malacca Straits! Being N-powered,they would need no refuelling and could conduct a 90 day patrol even setting off from the A&N islands.In addition,our conventional AIP fleet,setting of from the A&N islands ,would be able to extend their time on station for at least 3-4 weeks.If facilities are available in Viet ports,then virtually on permanent station like the N-subs.The extra Akulas would also enable the 6 SSNs to tag and hunt any PLAN N-subs that might appear in the IOR,as China will inevitably do once its sub fleet reaches the 80-100 mark.However,possessing upgraded,modernised Akulas and brand new SSNs which would have significant Ru tech.,the IN would have a distinct qualitative advantage over the PLAN's subs. This emphasis on building up the sub fleet is most welcome and none too soon,as we have a lot of catching up esp. in numbers of subs when compared with the Sino-P{ak JV.

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Re: INS Chakra joins IN - Where is the Mithai?

Postby Will » 12 Sep 2017 21:27

$2.5 Bn for a 10 year lease? :mrgreen: You now know who is goting to help with the SSN project. :twisted: . Remember the tale of the cost of the Gorshkov and then suddenly the Arihant breaking cover? :mrgreen: :twisted: :mrgreen: Draw your own conclusions. :P :P :P

What I cant understand though is why cant the lease of the chakra 2 be extended by another 5-10 years so that the IN will have two SSN's till the indigenous design comes out.

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Re: INS Chakra joins IN - Where is the Mithai?

Postby ShauryaT » 12 Sep 2017 21:41

Will wrote:$2.5 Bn for a 10 year lease? :mrgreen: You now know who is goting to help with the SSN project. :twisted: . Remember the tale of the cost of the Gorshkov and then suddenly the Arihant breaking cover? :mrgreen: :twisted: :mrgreen: Draw your own conclusions. :P :P :P

What I cant understand though is why cant the lease of the chakra 2 be extended by another 5-10 years so that the IN will have two SSN's till the indigenous design comes out.

Chakra 2 will be due for refuelling.

Added: Russian reactor designs are not as advanced as US one's. Modern US naval reactors are designed to last nearly the full lifecycle of the carrier/sub. Their thermal to electric conversion is far superior to Russian designs.

DAE is yet to crack the code on a design to power the SSN. My hope is part of this build is to "learn" from the Russians to do so for the reactor also.

IMHO: There are three things that differentiate an SSN from an SSBN. Speed, Agility and Sound. Both have endurance. SSBN has the size to launch ballistic/LR missiles.

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Re: INS Chakra joins IN - Where is the Mithai?

Postby Austin » 13 Sep 2017 11:51

ShauryaT wrote:Added: Russian reactor designs are not as advanced as US one's. Modern US naval reactors are designed to last nearly the full lifecycle of the carrier/sub. Their thermal to electric conversion is far superior to Russian designs.


Reactor of different generation have different feature , Akula Subs are of 3+ types that uses OK-650V ( 190MW(t) )reactor that needs refuelling after 12 years of operation. Previous generation subs used 80-90 MW(t) reactor that needed refuelling in 8 - 9 years ( eg Delta 4 class or Victor 3 class )

4th gen subs of Yasen Class uses New Monoblock reactor ( 200 Mw (t ) ) that does not need refuelling through its life time

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Re: INS Chakra joins IN - Where is the Mithai?

Postby chola » 13 Sep 2017 12:15

ShauryaT wrote:DAE is yet to crack the code on a design to power the SSN. My hope is part of this build is to "learn" from the Russians to do so for the reactor also.


The design was already "cracked" by BARC for Arihant. I find it impossible to believe that our SSN won't be based on the Arihant and its followons and the powerplant in those. Designing the SSN from a separate base is insane for a new nuke sub operator by duplicating efforts and expenses.

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Re: INS Chakra joins IN - Where is the Mithai?

Postby Philip » 13 Sep 2017 12:29

Shaurya,oui,the relationship is much deeper than what appears on the surface. There was a report quite some time ago when the second lease broke,that concluding it would be well if Ru were given the collaboration for the 6 SSNs.It would also make eminent sense to have a common thread of design,eqpt.,etc.,running through the SSBN,SSGN (lease) and SSN programmes,esp. as the Chakra was also meant to train our submariners in operating an N-sub.With the second SSBN launch expected/announced anytime now,and very welcome news of the 3rd Akula planned,the IN's N-subs programme appears to be making excellent progress.

One intriguing point.The IN team inspected two Akula subs/hulls.Could it be that both are in the "basket"? Would make even more sense for both (3&4) modified.Ak-2 was supposed to be the "Kash-a-lot" (translates into a "lot-of-cash" :rotfl: ).The Samara is the much younger of the two,but who knows what the hull conditions o both are.The fact that both have been taken to the yard indicates that both will be modernised.

However, sources have told ThePrint that the two Project 971 submarines that are presently docked at Zvyozdochka shipyard in Severodvinsk are the Samara ​​(K 295) and Bratsk (K 391), both of which were transported there in 2014. Indian teams are believed to have inspected both hulls.


If an Indian team is embedded at Sevmash,then the team could work hands on with the second sub almost simultaneously ,while the first is being built by the Ru team.That would give us excellent N-sub building human skills.The team ,even teams by rotation,can then return later to build the SSN class.

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Re: INS Chakra joins IN - Where is the Mithai?

Postby ambati » 13 Sep 2017 15:43

i have question does every SSBN need a one more sub to protect it
if yes who is doing it for our sub is it chakra or any other subs
If chakra then who will protect the other SSBN that is been launched

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Re: INS Chakra joins IN - Where is the Mithai?

Postby ks_sachin » 13 Sep 2017 18:03

Pratyush wrote:The propulsion is solved and it works. It can always be optimised further. The rest to be built around it.

So it's not that big a challenge.


I think you should send your CV to the Directorate of Naval Design!!!!

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Re: INS Chakra joins IN - Where is the Mithai?

Postby Pratyush » 13 Sep 2017 19:39

I will not be considered by INDO. To much common sense.

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Re: INS Chakra joins IN - Where is the Mithai?

Postby Manish_Sharma » 13 Sep 2017 19:48

sum wrote:I assume 2.5B includes some sort of hidden ToT for the Indian SSN programme else sounds unbelievably high for a single sub lease


Modi had eye on Yasen submarine, but Putin can't spare it plus Russian mic is overstretched in building these superboats.

Some of the tech will be slipped into the Shucka subs, our technicians will be involved in rebuild from ground up. The cost is for ToT plus training for our own Hunter killer sharks.

Since our security partner USA with whom we are tied at hip has refused help with SSN tech. They want us to buy f18 + f16 junk instead.

While our French froggy friends have already promised/declared in Australia that they won't help brown Bharatiya nation with submarine technology.

So villain Putin and Russia step in.

Just like in old times those who couldn't afford Rajesh Khanna opted for Navin Nischal.

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Re: INS Chakra joins IN - Where is the Mithai?

Postby Austin » 13 Sep 2017 21:28

Good Enough isn't Good Enough :)

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Re: INS Chakra joins IN - Where is the Mithai?

Postby Cybaru » 14 Sep 2017 05:28

There seems to be more cooking in the IN N sub saga. Nothing seems clear at the moment. I guess we only need to tell the world we have atleast One Chakra (to ensure that helps allies classify chakra signature as ours). We could buy all the chakras from russia and induct them as ours and no one would know how many we have.

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Re: INS Chakra joins IN - Where is the Mithai?

Postby Manish_Sharma » 14 Sep 2017 05:36

Austin wrote:Good Enough isn't Good Enough :)

Actually I will be very happy to have 9 Yasen type advanced SSGN boats by 2036, even American admiral is so impressed that he has a model of it built so he can look at it everyday. 8)

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Re: INS Chakra joins IN - Where is the Mithai?

Postby arshyam » 14 Sep 2017 07:29

Manish_Sharma wrote:
sum wrote:I assume 2.5B includes some sort of hidden ToT for the Indian SSN programme else sounds unbelievably high for a single sub lease


Modi had eye on Yasen submarine, but Putin can't spare it plus Russian mic is overstretched in building these superboats.

Some of the tech will be slipped into the Shucka subs, our technicians will be involved in rebuild from ground up. The cost is for ToT plus training for our own Hunter killer sharks.

The cost may very well be for a Yasen, or a Schuka with Yasen levels of sensor+noise reduction tech, with hands on training and consultancy for our own boats included. If history were to be a guide, the cost of INS Vikramaditya had shot up, along with a submarine that we simply couldn't "assemble back" in Visakhapatnam. There was so much criticism about both, but a few years later, out comes the Arihant and voila, so does the Sindhukirti!

Manish_Sharma wrote:Just like in old times those who couldn't afford Rajesh Khanna opted for Navin Nischal.

Well put, except in this case, Rajesh Khanna being a superstar refuses to deal with us hoi-polloi types, and we like wide-eyed fans don't take it personally and continue to fawn over him :lol:

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Re: INS Chakra joins IN - Where is the Mithai?

Postby Singha » 14 Sep 2017 07:43

Samara - FOC 1995
Bratsk - FOC 1989
Kashalot - FOC 1988

leopard, volk, magadan, vepr are laid up in port in some stages of refit, or awaiting more lessors.

only tigr, kuzbass, gepard are active, rest a few are decommed and a few were never completed. two such were even used for borei class hulls.

so there is plenty of scope to lease two subs, but they will need deep refit and fresh reactors being 30 yrs old.

there are no subs ready to roll except the 3 in active service which russia surely needs to support the few yasens in service . right now they would not be able to muster up more the 3 akulas + 2 sierra+ 1 yasen = 6 . thats the size of France/UK SSN holdings and less than Cheen.

6 more yasen are in the pipeline, but the 3 active akulas might also be retired by then.

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Re: INS Chakra joins IN - Where is the Mithai?

Postby Austin » 14 Sep 2017 10:40

6 Akula are going though deep upgrade bringing it close to yasen standard , first one almost ended it's upgrade and will start sea trials.The remaining older 5 akula will go through operational refit and will be retired by eol , 4 Oscar 2 and 2 Sierra 2 will be upgraded the rest will be discarded plus 7 yasen are getting built lead ship commissioned and other 6 in different stages of construction will be built to upgraded standard

Not much to spare for lease and no SY available before 2024 to build any new subs for other navy at severodvinsk

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Re: INS Chakra joins IN - Where is the Mithai?

Postby Rakesh » 03 Oct 2017 21:21

India's only nuclear submarine damaged in accident
https://theprint.in/2017/10/03/accident ... onar-dome/

India’s nuclear-powered submarine, INS Chakra, has suffered “some damage” in an accident and could require substantial repair work to get it back in shape. The attack submarine, obtained on a 10-year lease from Russia, has not sailed for a month and is berthed at its home port of Visakhapatnam for repairs.

Sources told The Print that the submarine — currently India’s only operational nuclear-powered vessel — suffered damage to its sonar dome in the accident. The sonar dome is located at the forward portion of the submarine, beneath the torpedo tubes. While details of the incident are yet to emerge, sources said that the damage could be the result of either a collision at sea or accidental scraping while entering the harbour. The Indian Navy refused to comment on the incident.

Repair work on the submarine is likely to be complicated given that the sonar dome is made of titanium, a difficult metal that requires both specialised machinery and manpower to work on. However, the indigenous Arihant nuclear armed submarines are also being made in Visakhapatnam and that could help.

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Re: INS Chakra joins IN - Where is the Mithai?

Postby ramdas » 03 Oct 2017 22:29

^^ Should'nt leaking such info, if such info is true, lead to the concerned journalists being imprisoned ? Preferably, a worse fate, along the lines of a life imprisonment, should befall such elements. Such traitors should not be allowed to continue with their business.
Last edited by ramdas on 03 Oct 2017 22:54, edited 1 time in total.


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