Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

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nelson
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by nelson »

From the IE article linked above
...Original para 137 of Army order

“CR identified as grossly inconsistent or with inflationary/ deflationary/ subjective reporting, after due examination at appropriate level, may be expunged by the COAS. Expunctions approved by the COAS will be irrevocable. No re-initiation or review is permissible.”

Amended para 137 of Army order

“CR identified as grossly inconsistent or with inflationary/ deflationary/ subjective reporting, after due examination at appropriate level, may be either moderated or expunged in part or full by the COAS. Expunctions and moderations approved by the COAS will be irrevocable. No re-initiation or review is permissible.”
The change is minor, and IMO it was a justified change, considering the quantification system for promotion introduced from 2008. Where each entry in a CR counts, partial expunctions would provide the COAS with better powers for redressing grievances and taking corrective action.

As far as doctoring of CRs is concerned, each case will have to be considered on its merits. It could be done before the rule was amended, after the amendment and also now, after the revocation of the amendment.

IE is at it again because they have got a job to do.
Ashutosh Malik
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by Ashutosh Malik »

nelson wrote:From the IE article linked above
...Original para 137 of Army order

“CR identified as grossly inconsistent or with inflationary/ deflationary/ subjective reporting, after due examination at appropriate level, may be expunged by the COAS. Expunctions approved by the COAS will be irrevocable. No re-initiation or review is permissible.”

Amended para 137 of Army order

“CR identified as grossly inconsistent or with inflationary/ deflationary/ subjective reporting, after due examination at appropriate level, may be either moderated or expunged in part or full by the COAS. Expunctions and moderations approved by the COAS will be irrevocable. No re-initiation or review is permissible.”
The change is minor, and IMO it was a justified change, considering the quantification system for promotion introduced from 2008. Where each entry in a CR counts, partial expunctions would provide the COAS with better powers for redressing grievances and taking corrective action.

As far as doctoring of CRs is concerned, each case will have to be considered on its merits. It could be done before the rule was amended, after the amendment and also now, after the revocation of the amendment.

IE is at it again because they have got a job to do.
Precisely. The editor there seems to be going through a bout of pain on account of the coup story nonsense. He cannot let go and is behaving like a stubborn kid.
Khalsa
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by Khalsa »

rohitvats wrote:
Khalsa wrote:how do you want the pics we discussed ?
email or what ? can private message me or something

thanks
Khalsa
contact me
okay got it.
Delete your gmail addy now
rohitvats
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by rohitvats »

Some addition images of Indian Army canal crossing operations.

Request to everyone - if you have image of Arjun fording or crossing some water body/canal/river, please to share or point direction(s).

http://vatsrohit.blogspot.in/2012/09/up ... ssing.html
jai
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by jai »

Victor wrote:
kancha wrote:Thanks Jai.
Is there any other recourse still available to the govt to challenge this judgement again?
The govt had appealed the decision and has now lost it so AFAIK, it has no recourse. However, one can't put anything beyond these characters. This same GoI has subverted supreme court verdicts before, most notably the one upholding the IMDT Act.
You are correct. Grapevine suggests that govt will play foul again with selective pay commission based implementation - if that happens, it will be challenged again and another legal battle will follow.

All this when the amount involved is a paltry Rs. 1600 Cr, especially when you compare it to the scandals and free bees of Lakhs of crores being dished away. This is an insult to the services, but what to say of a govt that accepts back gallantry medals of its brave hearts but would not give them their hard earned due - which is what it is . Govts arguments in the court in this case were that they can not afford this charity - the hon. Court pointed out that it was not charity but the officers due as it was the govt that had been wrongly calculating the pay of the officers - the govt could not explain why a wrong calculation method was being allowed to continue even when pointed out by so many courts !
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by anjan »

http://www.hindustantimes.com/News-Feed ... 28347.aspx
Led by a lieutenant colonel, around 60 uniformed men allegedly ransacked the Kathua railway station and beat up six policemen while abducting one on Monday evening.

The incident sparked off panic and many passengers who had come to the station to board the train ran away. Even
shopkeepers in nearby villages downed their shutters and fled in panic.
According to the police, at about 10.20pm on Monday, lance naik Deepak Kumar of 225 Field Regiment, based at Janglote, came to board Jhelum Express.

On arriving, Kumar allegedly removed the switch of the door-frame metal detector to charge his mobile phone. Objecting to that, Kuldeep Raj, head constable of the General Railway Police (GRP), which mans railways, got the charger removed.

"It infuriated Kumar and he started beating Raj, who started bleeding," superintendent of police (Railways) Shiv Kumar Sharma told HT.

On seeing this, other police personnel overpowered Kumar and took him to the railway police station. Kumar, meanwhile, informed his unit about the incident on phone.

The SP said at about 11pm a truckload of army personnel led by Lt Col MU Khan surrounded the station. Some of them smashed windows while others started beating sentry Jarnail Singh. Other police officers were also beaten up.

"The army men then forcibly lifted munshi Ghulam Nabi and took him to their unit at Janglote," said Sharma.

The matter was brought to the notice of SSP Kathua who had a word with the seniors of the regiment after which the munshi was let off.

Sentry Jarnail Singh is in critical condition. The GRP has registered a case of attempt to murder and abduction.
I guess we'll wait to see what the full story is. Anyway lots of Arty units in the news lately. I wonder if there is a systemic issue or it's just bad luck and coincidence.
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by rohitvats »

^^^What systematic issue are you talking about here? And which other arty units, part from the one in Nyoma, have you heard about?

The report above has only one side of the story...we don't know what actually happened. Soldiers undergo worse in terms of treatment by the civil administrations...how many times have you come across army units blowing their lid? History shows that more often than not, the provocation is quite extreme for people to loose their cool and resort to such tactics.
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by alexis »

^^^

Will have to wait for Army's comment on the same. However, incidents (or atleast media reports of them) between police and army personnel seem to be on the rise.
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by member_22906 »

^^
These type of incidents have happened in the past. The only difference is since media has taken a liking to beat the Armed Forces (esp. Army), it gets reported more often than not.

Army stations like Deolali, Mhow, Ahmednagar, Jallandhar, Jabalpur, Pune, Hyderabad, Pathankot, Bathinda, etc. etc, have all had a history to these conflicts. More times than not the post mortem of these incidents have shown that it was the police which had created the issue in the first place
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by nelson »

This report seems to be closer to the truth.

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2012/20120912/main5.htm
Cops, soldiers clash at Kathua railway station
Tribune News Service

Jammu, September 11
The police has registered an FIR against two Army officers and some “unidentified” soldiers for allegedly attacking policemen and ransacking the GRP police station at the Kathua railway station on Monday.

Around six policemen were injured, one of them critically, when Army men allegedly assaulted the men in khaki for beating up one of their colleagues over a trivial issue. Two FIRs were registered against the Armymen this morning.

“The FIRs have been registered against Lt-Col MU Khan, and Capt Tyagi and some unidentified soldiers under Sections 148, 307, 364, 452 of the IPC for attacking cops, ransacking the police station and kidnapping one of our men,” Superintendent of Police GRP Shiv Kumar told The Tribune. He said no arrest had been made so far, but the police would approach the court to arrest the accused involved in the incident.

On Monday evening, the policemen deployed at the Kathua railway station reportedly had an altercation with a soldier, Deepak Kumar, who was on his way to his native place. The policemen allegedly took the soldier to a nearby post and beat him. Some other policemen also joined in and gave a severe thrashing to the solider. While policemen were beating up the soldier at the police post, another solider informed his colleagues at the nearby Army formation about the incident.

Within no time, his colleagues reached the GRP police station and attacked the policemen. The cops manning the police station had to run for shelter. Only Ghulam Nabi (Munshi) and Jarnail Singh (guard) were left in the police station. The soldiers allegedly gave a severe thrashing to Jarnail Singh. He had to be admitted to the Kathua hospital.

“Army men kidnapped Ghulam Nabi at gunpoint and it was only after the intervention of the SSP, Kathua, that the kidnapped policeman was rescued,” said SP (GRP). “If there was some problem, the Army officers should have informed us,” he said.
The real, positive side of this unfortunate incident is that the instances of growing distance in officer-men relations are exceptions and not universal as propagandised.
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by merlin »

Can the cops arrest soldiers?
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by nelson »

Theoretically, yes. It seldom happens in practice.
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by venkat_r »

You would have to see it to believe it - the way the soldiers treat the cops.


would tend to believe the cop's side of the story in general. No cop would dare to just take a soldier to a police station and beat him up.
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by nakul »

The question is whether the policeman knew he was dealing with a soldier? No policeman would be stupid enough to beat a soldier knowing that he would not stand a chance if the soldier called his fellow men.
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by nelson »

So it is ok for police to have beaten him up, had he not been a soldier?
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by nakul »

Ideals are not being discussed here. I am just trying to read human behavior.
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by nelson »

In our country, we have seen police assaulting commissioned officers of the Army after their identity has been established. Video is on youtube.

What human behaviour you are talking about?
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by nakul »

I want to know human reaction. I know police are known to treat people like pigs. Do they treat soldiers in the same way? But I think you have already answered that question. One doubt still remains. Does the army not retaliate?
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by nelson »

In only a fraction of the cases, the unit is local and at a resonance to react in the manner they did here; as also in Pune, Kolkata and elsewhere. This is no justification for the kind of reaction, but it just happens, on the spur of the moment.
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by nakul »

Thanks for the clarification. I am not in postion to justify or oppose their action. Hence, won't be trying anything anything of that sort.
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by rohitvats »

venkat_r wrote:You would have to see it to believe it - the way the soldiers treat the cops.
would tend to believe the cop's side of the story in general. No cop would dare to just take a soldier to a police station and beat him up.
And where and how many such incidents have you come across to make this sweeping statement?

And BTW, in case you did not fathom, till now, there is only ONE party to the issue has given its side of the story to the press. The Tribune story does not attribute its version to the army. So, please, don't bring your prejudices into the issue.
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by pentaiah »

merlin wrote:Can the cops arrest soldiers?
For full disclosure rent
Rambo first blood ( the best rest trash)
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by Viv S »

venkat_r wrote:You would have to see it to believe it - the way the soldiers treat the cops.

would tend to believe the cop's side of the story in general. No cop would dare to just take a soldier to a police station and beat him up.
I agree to some extent. There is a degree of palpable contempt with which the average soldier views the average cop. And while it should strongly be discouraged, one can certainly understand the rationale behind it. While they may belong to the same pay-grade, the soldier is tougher, fitter, more resilient and has a sense of self worth with stronger links with his profession. He'll unquestioningly obey orders from a superior because he knows that the individual regardless of his rank has been through the same grind, but when expected to display the level subservience a khakhi clad paunchy chairborne cop often expects from the public, it will grate.

These are of course my own personal observations that shouldn't be assumed to apply to every case. Until more details emerge lets hold our horses.
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by ASPuar »

The cops should not have mistreated the Jawan. Simple. Everything that happened after that followed as a consequence of the illegality committed by the policemen. Simply put, they got their just desserts.

I particularly enjoyed the bit from the Army spokesman about "The policeman injured himself while running away. No injury was received at the hands of army personnel". :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by anjan »

venkat_r wrote:You would have to see it to believe it - the way the soldiers treat the cops.
would tend to believe the cop's side of the story in general. No cop would dare to just take a soldier to a police station and beat him up.

The police make a habit of beating people up. It just so happens that in their power trip they don't always realize the repercussions of beating up on people who can actually fight back. Most of the whining actually comes down to that.
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by Hari Seldon »

anjan wrote:The police make a habit of beating people up. It just so happens that in their power trip they don't always realize the repercussions of beating up on people who can actually fight back. Most of the whining actually comes down to that.
+1, sirjee.
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by vishal »

merlin wrote:Can the cops arrest soldiers?
Yes, they can.

And sometimes it is a good alternative compared to what might happen if the MPs get their hands on you. My dad was posted in Srinagar a long time ago when he was a Flight Lieutenant. Indira Gandhi, who was the then PM, was supposed to come to town in the morning. In the very early hours of that morning, my dad & a fellow officer went on a binge after which the former insisted on driving them back to the bachelors quarters in their jeep. On the way, he managed to destroy flower pots that had been carefully placed on a bridge to welcome to the PM. To say that people (civilians & fauji) were passing bricks from their rear end is an understatement and things were looking good for a court martial. One of my dad's fellow officers suggested they file a report in a civilian police station since a person cannot be booked twice for the same 'crime'. This would prevent a report from being filed in the guard room. Said report was filed in the local thana, jawaans worked feverishly to replace the pots and repaint the damaged part of the bridge, and nothing bad happened to anyone (no arrests were made). Later, a certain page of an FIR register in a certain thana in Srinagar went missing (the mystery is yet to be solved).
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by ASPuar »

Of course cops can arrest soldiers.

As the primary law enforcement agency, they are required to maintain law and order, and they can prosecute those who break the same, no matter who they are, or what they do.

They are also required to inform military authorities immediately of such an arrest, under the terms of the army navy and air force acts.

Of course, J&K Police has proved that its high handedness extends not just to army jawans, but even to its own policemen, with two security police cops thrashing a sub inspector just recently, for stopping a ministers convoy from jumping a red light.
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by nelson »

The Tribune quoting Army's official press note.

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2012/20120913/j&k.htm#1
Police to move court for custody of Army men
Military Police team visits Kathua rly station, begins probe
Tribune News Service

Jammu, September 12
A day after registering an FIR against Army men, including two officers, following a clash at the Kathua railway station, the police has decided to approach court to get the custody of the personnel whose names figured in the report.

Sources said senior police officers felt that it was not possible for them to get the custody of those “involved” in assaulting the policemen and ransacking the police station so they had decided to approach the court.

Meanwhile, a team of the Military Police today visited the Kathua railway station and started investigations into the case.

The Defence PRO, however, issued a handout and clarified the Army’s position in the incident.

“Two jawans from the Army were proceeding on leave from the Kathua railway station. While waiting for the train around 9:30 pm at the railway station, one of the jawans went to charge the battery of his mobile phone from a plug point installed in the alleyway located at the entrance of the railway station. Immediately, a General Railway Police person came and started abusing the Army jawan and asked him why he charged his phone from the plug point. The jawan immediately apologised and removed his mobile phone,” the handout stated, adding, “The GRP person, who was visibly in a drunken state, used unparliamentary language and hit the jawan with his rifle butt. On being pushed by the Army jawan, the GRP person called his colleagues present at the railway station. All of them started beating up the Army jawan and dragged him to the GRP office at the railway station.”

While the Army jawan was being dragged by GRP personnel, he screamed for help. A local boy then alarmed the other jawan, who was waiting for his train at the station. The jawan immediately went towards the GRP personnel and asked them to stop beating up his unit colleague and also asked them why they were beating him up. The GRP personnel abused him also and tried to drag him inside the GRP office. However, he managed to escape and immediately called up his unit, the handout stated.

“The abducted jawan was severely beaten by over 15 GRP personnel with rifle butts, belts and sticks. Around 10:15 pm, when representatives from the Army reached the location, all the GRP personnel had left the scene except a head constable and a constable who were in their office. On being inquired about the incident and reasons for beating up the Army jawan, the head constable did not respond and refused to give contact numbers of his superiors to whom the Army representatives wanted to speak,” the handout said.

The Army representatives waited for one and a half hour for the GRP authorities, but nobody turned up. Finally, the Army representatives asked the GRP personnel to accompany them to the Kathua police station to which the head constable agreed.

“What is important is that no police station was ransacked, the alleged kidnapping of GRP men did not take place, as the head constable willingly accompanied the Army personnel to lodge an FIR and no GRP personnel were thrashed or beaten up as alleged in few media reports. The charges levelled against the Army are totally baseless,” the handout stated.
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by member_22906 »

^^
There you are... It is these becoming fashionable to jump the gun and blame the Army for almost everything that ails in this country by a few people here. It looks as if they are hated more than the Pakis.

Remember, when the chips are down, its camaraderie that can hold men together. So all in all, the paltan's izzat was protected and the men demonstrated camaraderie. It would also have been very difficult for the officers to show face, if they had not supported their men (especially if we hold the above report even 80% true)
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by Lalmohan »

this sort of incident is common in most countries, ddm likes to exaggerate for effect
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by SSridhar »

Ankit Desai
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by Ankit Desai »

In a first, Indian tank brigades to defend China border
The army’s defences on the China border will get a major offensive boost with the impending deployment of two tank brigades, one each in Ladakh and north-east India.
Authoritative MoD (Ministry of Defence) sources tell Business Standard that the plan, cleared by the MoD, involves raising six new armoured regiments, equipped with 348 tanks (58 tanks per regiment, including reserves). In addition, three mechanised infantry battalions will be raised, amounting to about 180 BMP-IIs.
According to MoD sources, the army has demanded the purchase of additional T-90 tanks for these six armoured regiments. India has already bought 657 T-90S tanks from Russia and obtained a licence to build another 1,000. Now, in addition to these purchases, the army wants the latest version of this tank, called the T-90MS.
-Ankit
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by sum »

India has already bought 657 T-90S tanks from Russia and obtained a licence to build another 1,000. Now, in addition to these purchases, the army wants the latest version of this tank, called the T-90MS.
So now we will have 1000+348 T-90s with IA??
Wonder why the FMBT missed the bus here and we stopped at the super-duper T-90MS?
Last edited by sum on 17 Sep 2012 08:37, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by vivek_ahuja »

sum wrote:
India has already bought 657 T-90S tanks from Russia and obtained a licence to build another 1,000. Now, in addition to these purchases, the army wants the latest version of this tank, called the T-90MS.
So now we will have 1000+348 T-90s with IA??
Don't you just love it when they use legitimate threats to ask for more imported Russian tin cans?

Even when they intend to deploy in areas where there (in Laddakh, at least) are no bridges and no room to maneuver on a massive scale; where the armor needs maximum protection and survival gear; Where they are likely to be fighting outnumbered to win (instead of the other way around in Punjab and Rajasthan), they will still choose BMPs and T-90s.

You know, against all other alternatives? I will give you a hint: the name starts with an 'A'? Its more firepower and armor compressed into 70 tons that can fire on the move, repel direct turret hits? And made in India no less?

No more hints!

And now we will wait for the follow up explanations about "Army knows best", "They can't airlift anything heavier" etc arguments that usually follow these situations.

Sometimes you just gotta love the lovable little rapscallions in Army HQ.
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by putnanja »

If indeed the T-90s are best suited for the mountains, the IA could have moved some planned T-90s from western sector to the mountains, and reequipped the western sector with Arjuns. That would have showed their commitment to indigenous Arjun.
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by rohitvats »

putnanja wrote:If indeed the T-90s are best suited for the mountains, the IA could have moved some planned T-90s from western sector to the mountains, and reequipped the western sector with Arjuns. That would have showed their commitment to indigenous Arjun.
Guys, it is never going to happen this way. These are simplistic assumptions. The biggest elephant in the room is LOGISTICS.

Perfidy of the IA on Arjun issue notwithstanding, it is an absolute logistical nightmare to mix and match equipment within the same formation. IMO, it is for this reason that PA concentrated their T-80 tanks under a single formation - II Corps. And that is why I had advocated that IA should have made armor assets under at least one formation - 12 Corps or 21 Corps, as Arjun heavy.

In case of these new regiments, I'm sure Army is going to site 'urgency' clause along with the lead time to produce new Arjun tanks as the main reason. I agree with Vivek here...IA could have created the logistic structure de-novo here to support the Arjun Brigade.
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by rohitvats »

Ankit, thanks for posting this.

In the gloom-and-doom about Arjun, I guess we forgot to absorb the importance of this news. This is a lungi dance moment for sure.

I would give army 2 years to raise the complete complement of troops and support infrastructure.

But what I don't get is the reason behind 3 x mechanized battalions. These 2 x (I) Armored Brigades will require 1 x mechanized battalion each and 3 Div already has one mechanized battalion under it. I guess, 2 battalions will go some where else.
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by ASPuar »

For all the hoo-har about Army demanding Russian tin-cans, and "Army knows best" wallahs, ready to chastise the army for buying Russian, surely you cant be naiive enough to think that the Army actually decides which tank to buy?

The pressure to buy Russian comes entirely from the political leadership, via media the Department of Defence Production in the Ministry of Defence. The army (read pliant officers, who have been elevated for precisely such purposes), simply fall into line with whatever demand the MOD makes of them. If the MOD/PMO says "you should say we want these tanks", these fellows say so. And after that, its a license to mint money for a chain of politicians, babus, fixers, and sons-in-law of various worthies.

Whatever made you think the Army actually decides anything? :cry:
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by jai »

Does anyone remember what happened to the "light" tank rfp for 300 ?

Did no one respond ?

Or, has the MOD understood light to mean 47 tons ? Wonder if they will order AN 124's next !
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