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Industrial development & the evolution of military aviation

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JayS
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Re: Industrial development & the evolution of military aviation

Postby JayS » 31 Aug 2017 16:41

Vidur wrote:I am sharing some thoughts as promised. These are my personal thoughts and certainly not an official view. Please take them as such. There maybe some spelling mistakes and grammatical errors. Please excuse those. It was written in a few snatched moments and is completed late at night.



Vidur,

Thanks a lot for very insightful post.

Your thoughts on creation of "Department of Aerospace" on the lines of "Dept of Space" and "Dept of Atomic Energy"..?? The matter has been discussed to death since decades, but no movement despite it making a whole lot of sense, particularly when we see how the Space and Atomic Energy sectors have delivered on the targets.

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Re: Industrial development & the evolution of military aviation

Postby Vidur » 02 Sep 2017 13:38

DOS and DAE were created to give focussed attention to these two important national objectives. They were part of the nation building objective, wowen into the fabric of the 5 year planning process and given a high degree of autonomy with monitoring by PMO. There were no competing ministries and all the decisions made and works awarded within the repective departments. It was a closed loop with people with genuine interest and expertise in the endeavour at the apex. That is why some success was seen (more in DOS).

What would the objective of DOA be ? What ministry would it come under. What adminstrative structure would it have and most importantly who would staff it and be at the apex. We already have a ministry of defence, the IAF, a sprawling DRDO with a plethora of labs and competing structures, Ministry of Civil Aviation. Assuming your objective is driven by military needs we would be much better served by restructuring ADA, NAL and integrating them with IAF. The supporting DRDO labs will also have to report to the new structure. HAL will have to be carved out from Ministry of Defence production and report to this organization. IAF has the highest stake in their success so why not give them full control and full responsibility. But the budgetary approvals process will still have to be revamped as I wrote in my original post.

ramana
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Re: Industrial development & the evolution of military aviation

Postby ramana » 03 Sep 2017 03:04

Vidur, Have you read A.P. Vekateshwaran's 'Ministry of Defence" which is his doctoral thesis? Good libraries in Delhi should have it.
Also Lorne Kavic "India's Quest for Security " This is a Canadian scholar's look at MoD from 1947 till 1965.

Google Books abridged verison

I got my copy from a pavement bookseller near JJ College of Architecture, Bombay in many long years ago!!!!

The DOA was supposed to be the ADA created from HAL design staff when AM MSD Wollen was the Chairman HAL.
Meantime due to long gestation, it developed its own institutional culture. Which is that of a research organization when its mandate is design and development. It became like that as it had to develop a lot of infrastructures. And it was under DRDO and not under MoD directly. So it had reduced visibility to national goals.
LCA was a national goal but did not get the political support.
Let me clarify.
Being a national project so much reliance on the US especially knowing the proclivity for sanctions was totally unconscionable. Engine, flight control laws and who knows what else. The RLG was also offered as far as I know but looks like not taken thankfully.

The big challenge to my eyes was the relaxed stability which is the need for dog fighting at close combat sorties. Now, most modern fighting is BVR so what this Allah O Akbar (AoA) give you?
Secondly, even the 23mm Gun is not yet fired in the air, which is where the relaxed stability would make a difference.
Aso for CCM air to air missiles, i.e infra red guided missiles, look at what happened to the Sidewinder 9x fired by US F18 at a Su-24 in Syria. The chaffs deflected it and the pilot had to fire a radar guided BVR for a plane that was in visual range...
So one more instance that actual practice trumps theory.

All this points to the lack of oversight by the IAF combat leaders in all those review committees. Just passive oversight and not active involvement.

What forum calls chai biskoot sessions.

Vidur
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Re: Industrial development & the evolution of military aviation

Postby Vidur » 03 Sep 2017 15:16

No I haven't read it. Will try to.

The IAF was never mandated (by the government )to be involved in LCA at design and later development phase. It was a DRDO project, IAF gave the QRs, RMantralya the sanctions and monitoring. International best practice is for the user to lead the project but in India we do things differently :-). Don't underestimate the DRDO . They are very good at protecting its turf and was quite a powerful organization. There was little scope for IAF to give active feedback at early stages and any feedback would have been rejected. Its only in the last decade or so that DRDO has come under scrutiny after consistent underperformance. IAF task is war fighting and government's task is ensuring they have the equipment to do so. Having said that IAF has asked for a greater involvement on many ocassions and in fact was quite involved in HAL till the late 90s. Most HAL CMDs were IAF officers.

Vidur
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Re: Industrial development & the evolution of military aviation

Postby Vidur » 03 Sep 2017 15:17

In government you don't give un solicited feedback and advice. There are roles both defined and informal, and most people function within the parameters.

ramana
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Re: Industrial development & the evolution of military aviation

Postby ramana » 04 Sep 2017 02:13

Vidur wrote:In government you don't give un solicited feedback and advice. There are roles both defined and informal, and most people function within the parameters.

This is big gap especially in development programs.

So all those tri-level reviews were sham. Sad.

Have you read Isiah Berlin essay on Fox and Hedgehog?

shiv
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Re: Industrial development & the evolution of military aviation

Postby shiv » 12 Oct 2017 19:07

Just watch each clip for just 10 sec. Turn the volume down

Why do we have no one in India doing this?

I suspect it is because
1. We don't have enough people with time, money and skills
2. We don't have people who can manufacture the components

To me these are the two components of "industrial development" missing from India

https://youtu.be/2k2yMNZR4Ck?t=15

https://youtu.be/2k2yMNZR4Ck?t=73

https://youtu.be/2k2yMNZR4Ck?t=146

https://youtu.be/2k2yMNZR4Ck?t=181

https://youtu.be/2k2yMNZR4Ck?t=236

shiv
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Re: Industrial development & the evolution of military aviation

Postby shiv » 13 Oct 2017 07:03

This article fits in well here..

JayS
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Re: Industrial development & the evolution of military aviation

Postby JayS » 13 Oct 2017 12:55

shiv wrote:This article fits in well here..


Brilliant Article. Thanks for posting.


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