Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Amoghvarsha · Post by **Amoghvarsha** » 06 Sep 2016 20:35

https://m.sputniknews.com/military/2016 ... -su35.html

Bakis deal for Su 35s still on?I thought the Russis had assured us that there will be no deal.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 07 Sep 2016 06:41

Pakistan developing maritime doctrine to tackle instability in IOR - PTI

Pakistan is working to formulate a new maritime doctrine to tackle new emerging threats in the Indian Ocean Region and protect its shipping and commercial interests, according to a media report on Tuesday.

The draft doctrine is being reviewed at different levels in the navy and government ahead of its adoption, Dawn newspaper said.

Retired Commander Muhammad Azam Khan, the author of the doctrine, said the doctrine is aimed at developing coherence and uniformity of thought and action within Pakistan Navy and promoting cooperation with Army, Air Force, allied navies and coalition partners.

Speaking at the Centre for International Strategic Studies (CISS) think tank on Monday, Mr. Khan, who is also a Senior Research Fellow of Pakistan Navy War College, said the doctrine would further give contextual clarity to all stakeholders and observers of maritime developments in Pakistan.

“With the regional environment of IOR [Indian Ocean Region] being marred by uncertainty and political instability, Pakistan has to maintain its maritime security, be cognizant of its security interests and put forth its doctrinal assumptions based on concepts governing application of maritime forces, the command and control structures and a carefully crafted role for its naval forces,” he said.

Besides the security element and development of better ties with allied navies, the doctrine also envisages protection of shipping and commercial interests and addressing issues like climate change and rise of sea level.

Retired Naval Chief Admiral Asif Sandila spoke about sea-blindness in Pakistan’s doctrinal thinking — an inability to appreciate the central role the oceans and naval power play in securing strategic security and economic prosperity.

Mr. Sandila said the two areas that required special attention in the debate on maritime doctrine were development of an assured second-strike capability and the increasing need for delving into cooperative mechanisms as a tool for crisis management.

CISS Executive Director Amb Ali Sarwar Naqvi stated that Pakistan was located strategically with a multidimensional naval force whose force structure made it a reckonable power in the Indian Ocean Region.

“The evolving strategic environment in the region requires Pakistan Navy to develop a balanced mix of capabilities to rise up to the challenge,” he said.

The whole doctrine effort is a camouflage for incorporating the inevitable gift of Chinese SSNs to PN and converting Gwadar to a PLAN base.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 07 Sep 2016 10:07

Slowly pakis are coming out of the closet.

rohiths · Post by **rohiths** » 07 Sep 2016 10:10

It is highly unlikely that Chinese SSNs will be gifted to Pakis. Even Chinese are not that mad.

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 07 Sep 2016 10:46

rohiths wrote:It is highly unlikely that Chinese SSNs will be gifted to Pakis. Even Chinese are not that mad.

There have been reports of Pakis "buying" 8 attack submarines from PRC. If Gwadar is turned into a PRC outpost, it may very well host a fair few SSNs, with some of them "leased" to Baki Navy.

If the Chinese can gift Atmi bums to the Bakis, what's the problem with SSNs?

rohiths · Post by **rohiths** » 07 Sep 2016 11:42

Kashi wrote:
rohiths wrote:It is highly unlikely that Chinese SSNs will be gifted to Pakis. Even Chinese are not that mad.
There have been reports of Pakis "buying" 8 attack submarines from PRC. If Gwadar is turned into a PRC outpost, it may very well host a fair few SSNs, with some of them "leased" to Baki Navy.

If the Chinese can gift Atmi bums to the Bakis, what's the problem with SSNs?

Atom bums are for India only. SSNs can be used to target lot more places with much longer range. They can attack China itself. They are billion dollar machines also and Chinese are not that generous.

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 07 Sep 2016 12:20

rohiths wrote:Atom bums are for India only. SSNs can be used to target lot more places with much longer range. They can attack China itself. They are billion dollar machines also and Chinese are not that generous.

If the Cheenis fear that Bakis can turn on them wit their won supplied SSNs, surely they would realise that it would be far easier for the Bakis to smuggle the Cheeni supplied Atmi hathiyaar into Xinjiang and then to anywhere in China, rather than sailing a nuke sub through heavily patrolled waters all the way around India, Straits of Malacca et al. before surfacing to attack coastal China.

Of course, Cheenis are not generous, they will not supply the SSNs for free, they'll either saddle Bakis with a dud like the locomotives or they'll find ways to squeeze Baki testimonials for every last paisa.

schinnas · Post by **schinnas** » 07 Sep 2016 13:51

SSridhar wrote: The whole doctrine effort is a camouflage for incorporating the inevitable gift of Chinese SSNs to PN and converting Gwadar to a PLAN base.

Right on. It should be Cheen goal to station their nuke tripod (missiles, air delivery and sub delivery) closer to India. They have already placed nuke capable missiles and bombers in Tibet region. Only the naval wing was missing and Gwadar makes a perfect sense. All the more reason for citizens of Baloch republic to not allow PLAN base in their soverign territory.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 07 Sep 2016 15:34

rohiths wrote:Atom bums are for India only. SSNs can be used to target lot more places with much longer range. They can attack China itself.

rohiths, the Chinese have also given the Pakistanis a whole range of delivery platforms along with ToT for the same. If Pakistan can hit the A&N islands, they can as well hit deep inside China.

Bheeshma · Post by **Bheeshma** » 07 Sep 2016 23:07

All the more reason to arm vietnam and have IN patrolling SCS. Indo-pacific will heat up in this coming decade.

arun · Post by **arun** » 08 Sep 2016 07:19

X Posted from the “Baluchistan: The Story of Another Pakistan Military Genocide” thread.

Very positive to see that subsequent to our Prime Minister Narendra Modi highlighting excesses committed by the Islamic Republic of Pakistan’s Punjabi dominated Military, coverage by Indian Media of the topic of oppression of minorities in the Islamic Republic seems to have increased.

I look forward to the continued elevated role of our media in providing moral support to the Balochi, Pathan, Sindhi, and Mohajir victims of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan’s Punjabi dominated Military besides of course moral support for our fellow citizens of Kashmiri origin suffering under illegal Islamic Republic of Pakistan occupation:

Pakistan military on rampage in Balochistan, women and children tortured

arun · Post by **arun** » 08 Sep 2016 17:01

X Posted from the “India-US relations: News and Discussions III” thread.

An example of the closeness between the US Armed Forces and the Punjabi Dominated Military of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan and why India needs to be circumspect in dealings with the US.

Journalist Shekhar Gupta’s question if the IAF shot up his plane at Chaklala AFB during the 1971 war gets US Air Force Brigadier Chuck Yeager to claim that the Islamic Republic of “Pakistan won” 1971:

https://twitter.com/GenChuckYeager/stat ... 4445783040

The start of the exchange:

https://twitter.com/GenChuckYeager/stat ... 2632882176

It carries on beyond the 2 links with others coming in.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 09 Sep 2016 00:18

Bheeshma wrote:All the more reason to arm vietnam and have IN patrolling SCS. Indo-pacific will heat up in this coming decade.

You mean patrolling Indo-China Sea (ICS*)

*(c) Phillip Ji

arun · Post by **arun** » 10 Sep 2016 14:06

X Posted from the “Analyzing CPEC” thread.

Article titled “State of the Union” in The News by one Babar Sattar with a Harvard.edu e-mail id says that the Punjabi Dominated Military of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan conceives of CPEC as a “National Security Asset”, presumable making the economic dimension take a back seat and further has called for a “CPEC authority managed and run by serving generals”:

………… And then there is the CPEC. Every rational Pakistani will agree that it could open new vistas for us and is a good thing. But should it be conceived as a national security asset? No matter how close our relationship with China, we surely know that interests drive actions of nation-states, and in a changing world interests change too. Why should we consider or rely on something as a security asset the control of which doesn’t lie with us? What were the lessons from our alliances of the 50s and their utility during crunch time?

Granted that the CPEC is a vital communications and economic corridor that is a must-have, how does running power companies and other commercial projects fall within the military’s domain and expertise? Why should the military be interested in establishing a CPEC authority managed and run by serving generals?

Is the idea backed by the thought that even if the civilian government renders the economy bankrupt, the military will have an independent resource base to meet security needs? If so, is that the right way to think about Pakistan’s economy and security? Or is the CPEC too important to be subjected to the risk of civilian incompetence? If that is the logic, what about the police or the judiciary or issues like education and water management etc, all vital for Pakistan’s future? Can the military take over everything important to save Pakistan? …………..

From here:

Clicky

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 12 Sep 2016 14:19

Pakistan-Russia military to hold first ever joint drills - PTI

Pakistan and Russia are set to hold their first-ever joint military exercises later this year, media reported today, reflecting increased military cooperation between the two former Cold War rivals.

Around 200 military personnel from the two sides would take part in the joint military exercises, The Express Tribune quoted a senior Pakistani official as saying.

The move comes amidst increasing defence ties between Moscow and Islamabad as the latter was also thinking to buy advanced Russian warplanes.

Pakistan's Ambassador to Moscow Qazi Khalilullah told the newspaper that this is the first time that military personnel from the two countries would be taking part in joint military drills called 'Friendship-2016'.

He, however, did not divulge further details about the nature of the exercises or dates. The development, Khalilullah said, reflected increased cooperation between the two countries.

"This obviously indicates a desire on both sides to broaden defence and military-technical cooperation," he told a Russian news agency last week.
The joint military drill is seen as another step in growing military-to-military cooperation, indicating a steady growth in bilateral relationship between the two countries, whose ties had been marred by Cold War rivalry for decades, the paper said.

Islamabad decided to broaden its foreign policy options after its relations with the US deteriorated after secret CIA raid in Abbottabad killed al Qaeda chief Osama bin Laden in May 2011.

Pakistan's relations with the US were soured recently when US lawmakers blocked funds for the sale of eight Lockheed Martin Corporation's F-16 fighter jets to Pakistan.

Pakistan decided to look at alternative sources to purchase the aircraft including from Jordan.

Over the last 15 months, the chiefs of Pakistan's Army, Navy and Air Force travelled to Russia. The flurry of high-level exchanges between the two nations resulted in the signing of a deal for the sale of four MI-35 attack helicopters to Islamabad.

The formal agreement, which was signed in Moscow in August 2015, was considered a major policy shift on part of Russia in the wake of growing strategic partnership between the US and India.

Islamabad is eager to improve its ties with Moscow to diversify its options in the event of any stalemate in ties with Washington, The Express Tribune said.

After securing a deal of MI-35 helicopters, Pakistan is also exploring options to buy Su-35 fighter jets from Russia {Pakistan's usual tactics won't work with Russia. It needs hard cash. Cash & carry.}, it said.

For this purpose, Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman visited Moscow in July.

The Pakistani ambassador said the PAF chief held 'fruitful' discussions with Russian authorities but would not provide further details of new military purchases, including the multirole, air superiority fighter Sukhoi Su-35.

Amoghvarsha · Post by **Amoghvarsha** » 12 Sep 2016 16:47

^^^^Is this a new chapter in Pak-Russia relations?How detrimental it will be to India?

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 12 Sep 2016 17:14

AT best, Russia/Pak wants to needle India. But point is arms will low in all directions, to anyone who has the cash.

Russia cannot cause any more damage to India than it has done already by supplying arms to PRC. So relax! It has already been factored in

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 12 Sep 2016 17:33

If India goes for the planned purchases (frigates, S-400, FGFA, Kamov), India can also put pressure on Russia to stop some of its sales to Pakistan.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 12 Sep 2016 17:46

Please make a note of this news. Pakis simply release such news to cause takleef in India because they know that Indians will get upset. We should also be releasing fake news about Pakistan

May I use this opportunity to ask which country is the foreign customer who was to but the JF-17 as announced in the last Farnborough Air Show?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 12 Sep 2016 23:12

people, do not forget that russia has its interests in Afg & CA as well. interests that can be harmed by the telebunnies.
net-net, everyone pays a goat or two to propitiate the evil jungle demon and it may not attack you.

Atmavik · Post by **Atmavik** » 12 Sep 2016 23:30

shiv wrote:Please make a note of this news. Pakis simply release such news to cause takleef in India because they know that Indians will get upset. We should also be releasing fake news about Pakistan

May I use this opportunity to ask which country is the foreign customer who was to but the JF-17 as announced in the last Farnborough Air Show?

The next time such news is published please read the comments section. Pakis themselves don't believe in this BS.

here is a sample for JF17 Export http://www.dawn.com/news/1149351

mehbooba rafi
Dec 07, 2014 04:31pm

Let's face it, we can't even produce a good cycle and the media claims we have produced a fighter jet. My scrap dealer says that these jets, one day will be sold in kilos in Karachi. Whom should we believe, media or 67 year old scrap dealer.

Bheeshma · Post by **Bheeshma** » 12 Sep 2016 23:32

BS news item. So what if there is a minor excervcise. To put things in perspective Pakis have money for 4 Mi-35's , which is what India gifted Afghanistan, I hope we offer ANA 3-4 more Mi-35's and a hundred or two of 105 mm IFG and T-55's.

arun · Post by **arun** » 18 Sep 2016 09:50

X Posted from the STFUP thread.

Despite a solid track record of duplicitous behaviour damaging US National Interests, the US Military continues to remain deeply enamoured of the Uniformed Jihadi’s of the Military of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan. Status of Major Non NATO Ally (MuNNA) was not bestowed for no reason and the steadfast love for the Uniformed Jihadi’s by the likes of Brig. Charles “Chuck” Yeager is no accident.

Seema Sirohi reports that US Department of Defense funded National Defense University (NDU) has banned academics deemed unfriendly to Uniformed Jihadi’s of the Military of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan. The banned academics are Dr. C. Christine Fair and former Ambassador of the Islamic Republic to the US, Hussain Haqqani aka “Good Haqqani”.

Indian policy makers should note the reflexive behaviour of the US establishment to support the Uniformed Jihadis of the Military of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan and be circumspect in dealing with the US despite the current bonhomie. They should also study and take tips from the Uniformed Jihadi’s on how to manipulate the US:

Pakistan continues playing the victim card to reap maximum military benefits from the US

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 18 Sep 2016 11:11

I have not seen a single picture of pakis carrying the ZSU 23-2 AA gun which is the bread and butter weapon for all sides in Syria. Very effective in anti personnel role as well. Indian army carries over 800 of them per wiki and also the radar guided Shilka 23-4 on T55s.

Pakis have mounted 12.7mm HMG on their M113s with optical line of sight which while looking good in parades is not very effective in the battlefield.

What is the key weapon that Pakis use for close quarter AA defense?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZU-23-2

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZSU-23-4

kit · Post by **kit** » 18 Sep 2016 12:31

The Russian defense tech industry had been propped up by indian money for a past decade ., if they want to lose it , they are welcome .. India has options and also slowly discovering it can do some on its own

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 18 Sep 2016 14:35

Paul wrote:....
What is the key weapon that Pakis use for close quarter AA defense?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZU-23-2

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZSU-23-4

Anza

Bofors 40 mm

HMG 12.7 mm

Oerlikon 35mm

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 18 Sep 2016 23:25

While Pakistan has Bofors, the second photo is of the more numerous Chinese Type 65 37 mm twin AA in Pakistani service. It's a Soviet copy of Bofors 40 mm, so looks very similar

http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product4188.html

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 26 Sep 2016 03:21

PAF fighter pilot dies in F-7PG crash

PESHAWAR: A flight lieutenant of the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) died in an air crash in Jamrud tehsil of Khyber Agency on Saturday.

Flight Lieutenant Omer Shahzad was flying F-7PG when the aircraft encountered a technical fault and crashed, said a statement issued by the PAF.
..

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 27 Sep 2016 01:45

As a read on from that article
one of their firsts female fighter pilot died after ejecting from an F7 too.

Seems the Chinese made F7 are not doing too well.
I wonder what it is (the cause for these crashes) for the opposition.

Lack of Spare Parts from Cheena Bhai (can't see it happening)
Poor quality of spare parts from Cheena Bhai (can see that happening)
Poor Maintenance and TLC from the Ground Staff (can see that happening)
F7s being pushed hard and used to increase number of hours under each pilots belt (can see this happening).

I remember they did this with their F6 as well. Once the F7s started coming in , they flogged their F6s to the bone and dispersed them to all their Squadrons including F16s Squadron as well to increase flights hours for basic ACMs and Formation Flying.

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 27 Sep 2016 05:28

Can anyone confirm that Russians are holding an exercise with Pakistan Army in the PoK area.
So many claim and counter claims

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 27 Sep 2016 05:31

all good its confirmed... it is on
so Russians are having exercise with us and Pakis at the same time.

Interesting
Putin being a sulky cry baby now

salaam · Post by **salaam** » 27 Sep 2016 05:41

Khalsa wrote:all good its confirmed... it is on
so Russians are having exercise with us and Pakis at the same time.

Interesting
Putin being a sulky cry baby now

Ongoing defense exercises of importance to us:
- Russia / Pakistan - NOT in POK
- India / USA - in India
- India / Russia - in Russia
- INS Kolkata and INS Talwar on Africa meet and greet. Last seen talking to Deputy mayor of Durban.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 27 Sep 2016 05:44

Khalsa wrote:As a read on from that article
one of their firsts female fighter pilot died after ejecting from an F7 too.

Seems the Chinese made F7 are not doing too well.
I wonder what it is (the cause for these crashes) for the opposition.

Lack of Spare Parts from Cheena Bhai (can't see it happening)
Poor quality of spare parts from Cheena Bhai (can see that happening)
Poor Maintenance and TLC from the Ground Staff (can see that happening)
F7s being pushed hard and used to increase number of hours under each pilots belt (can see this happening).

I remember they did this with their F6 as well. Once the F7s started coming in , they flogged their F6s to the bone and dispersed them to all their Squadrons including F16s Squadron as well to increase flights hours for basic ACMs and Formation Flying.

Could be simple as O rings poor quality leading to dissolving in the fuel oil.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 27 Sep 2016 10:28

I dont see thier JF-17 ddoing any hours, those 50 + aircraft seem to be Hanger queens, thats why PAF is still hanging on to the Mirages. A few F-16 Block 52 crashes will also be nice.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 27 Sep 2016 10:35

Khalsa wrote:As a read on from that article
one of their firsts female fighter pilot died after ejecting from an F7 too.

Seems the Chinese made F7 are not doing too well.
I wonder what it is (the cause for these crashes) for the opposition.

Lack of Spare Parts from Cheena Bhai (can't see it happening)
Poor quality of spare parts from Cheena Bhai (can see that happening)
Poor Maintenance and TLC from the Ground Staff (can see that happening)
F7s being pushed hard and used to increase number of hours under each pilots belt (can see this happening).

I remember they did this with their F6 as well. Once the F7s started coming in , they flogged their F6s to the bone and dispersed them to all their Squadrons including F16s Squadron as well to increase flights hours for basic ACMs and Formation Flying.

Though, I would love to say something negative but this could just be a product of what fighter flying is all about. Crashes happen. Bad for the pilot and the PAF. I am happy.

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 27 Sep 2016 14:16

Thanks guys for the answers.

Ramana, yes could be a quality control issue.
Welcome to the real world PAF when the horses hit the middle years, its hard work keeping them air worthy and the F-16s are not on discounted sale anymore.

Deejay and Aditya appreciate not saying anything negative against the pilot(s).
I have always advocated not saying something personal because that's what Pakistanis do.
I much much appreciate you doing what you do.

What is etched in my mind (even though I was not born before pre-partition) were the stories of how Pakistani Army soldiers started calling us Indian Dogs after a few hours when partition was announced. Imagine how empty and hollow their characters must run.

Our ability to focus on the end game to bring them down forever and still keep a straight face ON is what differentiates us from them and is the key to our success while they have thrown the opportunity of a new brand new nation state at 47 and 71 to start again and reform.

They are driven by their hate and nafraat.
Alas it can only produce as good as what is poured in

To simplify and quote Amitabh Bachan from Lakshya

Hummein aur unmein ek fark hai. Aur yeh fark rehna chahiye
Yeh Indian Army hai. Hum dushmani mein bhi ek sharafat rakhte hain!

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 27 Sep 2016 14:33

A cheeni drone has also crashed near mianwali.
http://www.dnaindia.com/world/report-an ... es-2258887

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 27 Sep 2016 15:29

PAF Documentary - Aamna Samna

nirav · Post by **nirav** » 28 Sep 2016 16:24

Second Bandar down.
Last crash was when it flew into a baki hill...

This one reportedly went down over the Arabian sea.
Fizzleya sending men to guard OBLs grave.

Tom Hanks showed solidarity in his tweets with #PAF over the crash as per ridiculous baki forum.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 28 Sep 2016 16:41

I dont see any report, Fizzleya reports only crashes in populated areas, JF-17 crash over the Arabian sea will not be reported. Similarly, given thier fleet numbers and acquisitions, it is clear there have been atleast 8 crashes of F-16's not reported in public.