India Border Watch: Security and Operations

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Akshay Kapoor
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by Akshay Kapoor »

Sid wrote:AK ji, porkies found their deterrence in the form of nooclear bums.

What is our deterrence factor, limited fire assaults or some disproportionate response? Just like us porkies are capable of absorbing limited fatalities for a long period of time. Faujis are cannon fodder on both ends.

Sorry I may sound like some lefty peacenik, but I am still not clear on the streategy here. I am more the happy to provide what our force wants, i.e. a free hand, but strategically is it gonna work?
Let's examine your logic. The have nukes so they have deterrence. Okay so do we. So we should have deterrence too right ? In fact we have much more - better and more delivery systems and much larger country. What you are saying just like a lot of our media used to say and babus still say is that deterrence is one sided. Nuclear deternce is on the nuclear front not on conventional. Don't buy this BS. It's been proven wrong time after time.

Short term Strategy is to impose costs on them - costs that have never been imposed and to free us from self imposed and wrong conceptions. Short term tactical objective is also to reduce infiltration and destroy terrorists.

Long term has to be destruction of Pak along with its intelligence community ISI and its war making abilities. Baochistan indpeendence is a key part of this. So is Afghan strength , NWFP and Sindh independence.
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by Rishi Verma »

Totally agree on the destruction of Pakistan. How is the question. Nuke them, balkanize them, liberate the pieces logically, or a combination of the above, All three options are OK.
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by schinnas »

Balkanize them.
Akshay Kapoor
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by Akshay Kapoor »

Sid,

Your point about casualties is very dear to my heart. But remember the more operational freedom a commdnader has and the more militarily logical the action the less the casualties. Because every commander ensures that he uses the full flexibility to achieve objectives with min own casualties. Kargil is a good example. If we had crossed LC and cut off their supply lines we wouldn't have to do frontal assaults up steep slopes with little cover. If we had use air power to smash their arty behind LC they couldn't have inflicted casualties on us.

Restricting flexibility by unsound military and strategic moves is a recipie for casualties.
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by Sid »

AK ji,

I knew my response was more in line with lefty peaceniks hence apologized in advance. I fully support a "muh tode jawab" policy being adopted right now. But this escalatory tactics has few disadvantages -

a) Lack of cease fire allows for much better and open infiltration efforts by enemy. This increases burden on us.
b) Invaluable resources, lives/money, lost and spent on futile border skirmishes.

IMHO this is what a lot of folks wants us to do, get tied down on western front while we could be gunning for eastern front. Only viable long term solution I see is to outgrow and outspend porkies so they understand their place .

As a reference, when infamous Orion & J8 collision happened 15 yrs ago Chinese understood where they stand. As per Janes they had set a national agenda to cross the gap with west in 10 yrs and they did worked towards it. China just didn't transformed itself magically.

Similarly do we have such goals. Unless we have parity with porky puppet masters there will be no end to this situation.
Last edited by Sid on 01 Nov 2016 19:51, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by Karthik S »

Doordarshan NewsVerified account ‏@DDNewsLive
India retaliates to Pak firing in #Arnia sector; Heavy damage to around 14 Pak posts
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by yensoy »

Agreed, we need a clear endgame for Pak, but our participation in the endgame should only be a gentle final push that ends up quartering the country. Pak is progressing rapidly on the downward spiral of its own creation, and at this point in time on a path of no-return. Apart from the socio-political disfunctionality is its rapidly growing population and limited means to support itself. Like the Gandhian "freedom will fall in our lap like a ripe fruit", Pak will disintegrate like a rotten pumpkin, we only need to guide it to stay on this self-destructive path.

Going to an open ended war (declared or otherwise) is counter productive to our development agenda not counting the loss of life, limbs and wealth. Therefore, cessation of hostilities must happen sooner rather than later. Once our tactical goals have been met, primarily telegraphing our intention to punish and willingness to escalate, there is no further need to continue overt conflict.

I think the firing across IB has been triggered by Pakis as a face saving measure; once we have bloodied their nose in that area we can call for yet another cease-fire, taking the moral high ground and buying time to rebuild our fences and defences.
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by Sanju »

Our goals need to be short-term, mid-term and long-term• The short-term and medium-term goals should aide us in achieving our long-term goals. Under short-term would fall such things as creating fires in the four corners of the abom-e-nation like the Baloch Independence, Sindh Independence, support to Afghanistan, and pasting them at the LOC with fire assaults & more.
Once we get them running around trying to put out the fires, we move on to the mid term goal of integrating Pok back into the Indian Union. Long term goals have been well articulated by others on this forum. This is from a security point of view. Similarly, economic & other national goals should be all dovetailing to create a comprehensive Roadmap for India.
I believe that the National Strategists are thinking along these lines
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by Karan M »

i think nsg, SF needs to be prepped for CQB/room intervention training on massive basis above and beyond current level, nsg is under mha and i wonfer whether eqpt, training pipeline has opened up.

its only a matter of time before desperate tsp tries to do 26/11 to show up current goi.
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by Sanju »

Karan M wrote:i think nsg, SF needs to be prepped for CQB/room intervention training on massive basis above and beyond current level, nsg is under mha and i wonfer whether eqpt, training pipeline has opened up.

its only a matter of time before desperate tsp tries to do 26/11 to show up current goi.
As you know, it usually happens when there is a change of guard. In this case, November end or thereabouts.
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by Akshay Kapoor »

Sid wrote:AK ji,

I knew my response was more in line with lefty peaceniks hence apologized in advance. I fully support a "muh tode jawab" policy being adopted right now. But this escalatory tactics has few disadvantages -

a) Lack of cease fire allows for much better and open infiltration efforts by enemy. This increases burden on us.
b) Invaluable resources, lives/money, lost and spent on futile border skirmishes.

IMHO this is what a lot of folks wants us to do, get tied down on western front while we could be gunning for eastern front. Only viable long term solution I see is to outgrow and outspend porkies so they understand their place .

As a reference, when infamous Orion & J8 collision happened 15 yrs ago Chinese understood where they stand. As per Janes they had set a national agenda to cross the gap with west in 10 yrs and they did worked towards it. China just didn't transformed itself magically.

Similarly do we have such goals. Unless we have parity with porky puppet masters there will be no end to this situation.
a) Lack of ceasefire = more infiltration ? What are you smoking ? This defies all logic - they have used the cease fire to build border posts close to the lC to increase infiltration. Second, who is saying abandon the ceasefire ...it is still on. Like its been on for years and they have been firing. Or are you suggesting we have one sided ceasefire ?
b) Did you not read my post about casualties ? Till now (recent few days) the innumerable lives have been the Paki lives. Is that what bothers you ?

Sorry, I see no logic - military or strategic in your post.
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by Sid »

a> Your first statement is incorrect. Following are two reports 4 months apart from this year itself, see the difference. You can correlated it to calm on the borders or our solid defense grid, its up to you. Point I have been trying to make is our resources are limited, and we have much bigger fish to fry. Engaging porkis is counterproductive, with no clear end goal.
Feb 2016, just after Pathankot attack
http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/infiltra ... er-1277240
"There has been no increase in the presence of terrorists. Their numbers are decreasing," General Officer Commanding (GOC) of the Srinagar-based Chinar Corps, Lt Gen Satish Dua, told reporters in Srinagar.
"The numbers that are waiting across the LoC in the launch pads used to be higher during summers. Presently, the numbers have come down. They are little under 100," he said.

July 2016
https://in.news.yahoo.com/indian-army-c ... 48757.html
"There is an increase in their attempts to come across the .... (sic) target our posts, you know try and disturb our grids so that they can infiltrate inside. Definitely, you know attempts have been made, there are people who are close to the line of control to actually target them. They have not been able to successfully infiltrate inside into the hinterland but definitely activity along the line of control has increased," said Lt. Gen. Hooda.
"Our latest figures reveal that about 250 to 300 militants who are trying to across on the line of control and waiting to infiltrate to across on our side and I am not only talking of the Jammu region, I am not talking only about Srinagar, because that is the responsibility of another corps," Lt. Gen. Hooda said.
b> Regarding your second point, we should only care about how many we sacrifice. Numbers on the other side don't matter, its not a contest. All these activities are taking us back to pre 2003 era of daily artillery duels, border skirmishes and what not.

Like I said earlier, what is our deterrence factor? A big tight slap cannot deter them.
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by Aditya G »

Sid wrote:....

b> Regarding your second point, we should only care about how many we sacrifice. Numbers on the other side don't matter, its not a contest. All these activities are taking us back to pre 2003 era of daily artillery duels, border skirmishes and what not.

Like I said earlier, what is our deterrence factor? A big tight slap cannot deter them.
Artillery fire assaults is a tactical response by BSF and IA to same by Pak Army and Rangers. We have two options:

A. Do not retaliate, seek flag meetings etc (pre 2014 era). Our boys die anyways because they are being fired upon.

B. Retaliate and impose costs on otherside. Retaliation may actually reduce your own casualties.

Which one would you prefer?

Pakistan is under pressure to deliver response to us after surgical strikes. They are doing that and at same time infiltrate more jehadis. You are suggesting that hiding in our bunkers is better counter infiltration strategy. If you think that our patrols should be in the field w/o own fire support then you sending them to their death.
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by pankajs »

It is interesting that Modi was accused of doing nothing in response to Gurdapur and Pathankot and after than Uri happened. So minding our own business still costs us precious lives. If minding our own business and conserving lives and resources was the solution then Uri wouldn't have happened.

How does one respond to escalation from the other side? How does one defend what is ours without sacrificing resources and lives?
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by Sid »

At no time I have said "do not retaliate" or "hide in your bunker". If they take an eye, gauge the whole village. All I have been trying to understand is what can actually deter them from taking an eye in the first place? These limited strikes has only invited proportionate response till now.

Can India device a big stick which can bring fear of god in these people or is that even possible? I donot know the answer myself hence on the forum.
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by hanumadu »

GAURAV C SAWANT ‏@gauravcsawant 12m12 minutes ago
GAURAV C SAWANT Retweeted GAURAV C SAWANT
Exclusive images of BSF destroying Pak posts caught on thermal imagers. Top focus #IndiaFirst spl from Jammu sector 8.20 pm on @IndiaToday
Please capture and post the pictures if possible.
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by Lilo »

Sid wrote:At no time I have said "do not retaliate" or "hide in your bunker". If they take an eye, gauge the whole village. All I have been trying to understand is what can actually deter them from taking an eye in the first place? These limited strikes has only invited proportionate response till now.

Can India device a big stick which can bring fear of god in these people or is that even possible? I donot know the answer myself hence on the forum.
Big stick for the long term is the strategic control & manipulation of Indus water system.
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by Aditya G »

Sid wrote:....these limited strikes has only invited proportionate response till now.

Can India device a big stick which can bring fear of god in these people or is that even possible? I donot know the answer myself hence on the forum.
In absence of public information from Pakistan, you and me do not know whats going on there. They have lock down on media as media reporting will instill fear in peoples mind, or doubts in others (just like you have).

You have wait for this to play out before you can see the results. Perhaps you do not remember the dark days from 2013 when they were violating ceasefire with impunity.... And we were helpless. Now the tables have turned
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by Akshay Kapoor »

Guys

Sid is trolling. Any professional solider knows that cease fire started in 2003. I am saying that losses were less before that on the LC. He brings some reports form 2016 and twists them to support his argument his definition of ceasefire being - full tactical and strategic freedom to Pak and complete cease fire from us. When caught out he says what's the end game ? That's been explained before - destruction of Pak. The many steps to it have also been explained.

Any professional solider who has been on LC and Valery and I have will tell you that we had the upper hand by far when Pak approached us for ceasefire. The Paki never comes for ceasefire when he is winning.

After patiently responding to all his points he continues his BS. He is a troll at best and a member of the other side at worst.
Last edited by Akshay Kapoor on 03 Nov 2016 00:32, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by Akshay Kapoor »

pankajs wrote:It is interesting that Modi was accused of doing nothing in response to Gurdapur and Pathankot and after than Uri happened. So minding our own business still costs us precious lives. If minding our own business and conserving lives and resources was the solution then Uri wouldn't have happened.

How does one respond to escalation from the other side? How does one defend what is ours without sacrificing resources and lives?
FIREPOWER
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by Aditya G »

Pakis being punished. Now in GIF ;-)

Image

Edit: Hi-res
Last edited by Aditya G on 03 Nov 2016 01:56, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by Sid »

Akshay Kapoor wrote:He is a troll at best and a member of the other side at worst
Just like you a lot of people on this forum are either from forces or have family background. So don't try to insinuate such garbage and take a higher ground.

And since you have problem reading my posts, I advise you to read them again without any prejudice.
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by Karthik S »

Sid wrote:
Akshay Kapoor wrote:He is a troll at best and a member of the other side at worst
Just like you a lot of people on this forum are either from forces or have family background. So don't try to insinuate such garbage and take a higher ground.

And since you have problem reading my posts, I advise you to read them again without any prejudice.
Sid ji, a recalled a dialogue from the movie Munich:

Avner: Did we accomplish anything at all? Every man we killed has been replaced by worse.
Ephraim: Why cut my finger nails? They'll grow back.
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by Aditya G »

20th Oct 2016; action by BSF.

Image

21st Aug 2013; action by IA.

Image
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by brvarsh »

As such skirmishes continue to happen a bit of cost is also imposed on us if we continue with four fold response. Coming back to having only twenty day supply for a full fledged war there is also a need to keep replenishing the stock. Though Pakistan's supplies are not unending either but there is a definite political mileage that Chinese would like to have that can push Pakistan to continue with such attacks supplied by the Chinese faster than India could and try to drain India and then drag it into two or one and a half front war (With China only doing aggressive posture on the East and increasing incursions). Question is how can India and its Armed Forces respond in such a way that our counters are not only many more times effective but it cripples Pakistan by a good factor and reduces its ability to relaunch such an attack with every response further.
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by jamwal »

Now, Army decimates 6 Pak Posts across Mendhar to stop shelling
http://www.dailyexcelsior.com/now-army- ... -shelling/

Image
Nov 2: Army today decimated six Pakistani posts opposite Mendhar and Balakote sectors in Poonch district to stop shelling from across the Line of Control (LoC), as these posts were directly targeting the civilian population in the towns, leading to killing of two innocent women and injuries to many others while BSF said it has inflicted heavy casualties on Pakistan Rangers during yesterday’s assault across Ramgarh and Arnia sectors in Samba and Jammu districts respectively in which 14 posts of the enemy troops were destroyed.
As two more civilians including a teacher were injured in Mendhar in Pakistan shelling today, the Army launched massive assault on Pakistani posts across Mendhar and Balakote, which were targeting innocent civilians and reduced to ashes their six posts after which shelling stopped in Mendhar, Balakote and Mankote sectors of Poonch district, which was going on since yesterday morning.
Official sources told the Excelsior that Pakistan might have suffered casualties in destruction of their posts, which were razed to ground in massive counter offensive launched by the troops to save lives of civilians. A woman and her daughter-in-law were killed on the LoC at Naika Panjgrain in Tarkundi-Manjakote yesterday while half a dozen civilians were injured.
The counter offensive, according to sources, was necessitated to silence Pakistani shelling and save the civilians, who had been trapped in their houses and bunkers since yesterday morning. There was no shelling in Mendhar, Balakote and Mankote since 3.30 pm onwards after the counter-assault of Army against the Pakistani troops.
The Army and BSF have revised their strategy recently to decimate the Pakistani posts to save civilian population on this side. “The strategy has been very successfully,” sources said, adding whenever and wherever the troops have taken this punitive action against Pakistan Army and Rangers, the shelling has stopped immediately as the enemy troops had to run for cover and it will take time for them to re-construct the troops. :lol: :lol: The re-construction is also being checked,” sources said.
“The Indian retaliation yesterday in which 14 Pakistani posts were destroyed was measured and accurate aimed at military targets rather than civilian population.
The coordinated fire assault by the BSF executed with complete precision destroyed number of Pakistan forward Morchas and Posts. Inputs suggested several casualties of Pakistani Rangers and serious damage to their 14 posts and numerous Pakistani bunkers,” a handout issued by DIG-cum-PRO BSF, Dharmendra Pareek, said.
He said Pakistani continued to pursue the strategy of unprovoked cross-border firing and shelling to push infiltrators and terrorists into India, which is being continuously foiled by the alert BSF troops.
Meanwhile, IG BSF, Jammu Frontiers, DK Upadhyaya told reporters today that Pakistan’s border guarding force was deliberately targeting civilian areas and its Army directly supporting the troops in the shelling on these areas and Indian posts along the International Border.
He said Pakistan Army is giving full support to Pakistan Rangers, which have violated ceasefire “countless” times in recent past.
“Pakistani forces are firing heavy mortars deliberately towards Indian civilian areas. BSF never fires towards any Pakistani civilian area. We fire only towards military bunkers from where Pakistani forces fire. We have inflicted heavy damage on 14 Pakistani bunkers,” he said.
However, he ruled out use of artillery by Pakistan troops in shelling on Indian areas.
“There is no proof of artillery being used by the Pakistani forces”, the BSF Jammu chief said
.
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by Akshay Kapoor »

Sid wrote:
Akshay Kapoor wrote:He is a troll at best and a member of the other side at worst
Just like you a lot of people on this forum are either from forces or have family background. So don't try to insinuate such garbage and take a higher ground.

And since you have problem reading my posts, I advise you to read them again without any prejudice.
No higher or lower ground. Your posts have no logic and are insidiously among a case to support the enemy. Every argument you made was patiently addressed - from nuclear bluff, to end game to tactics to casualties (I infact said that issue is closest to my heart and that your suggestion of defensiveness will impose massive casualties for us). If we implement what you say we will help the enemy. I absolutely stand by what I said.
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by Akshay Kapoor »

jamwal wrote:Now, Army decimates 6 Pak Posts across Mendhar to stop shelling
http://www.dailyexcelsior.com/now-army- ... -shelling/

Image
Nov 2: Army today decimated six Pakistani posts opposite Mendhar and Balakote sectors in Poonch district to stop shelling from across the Line of Control (LoC), as these posts were directly targeting the civilian population in the towns, leading to killing of two innocent women and injuries to many others while BSF said it has inflicted heavy casualties on Pakistan Rangers during yesterday’s assault across Ramgarh and Arnia sectors in Samba and Jammu districts respectively in which 14 posts of the enemy troops were destroyed.
As two more civilians including a teacher were injured in Mendhar in Pakistan shelling today, the Army launched massive assault on Pakistani posts across Mendhar and Balakote, which were targeting innocent civilians and reduced to ashes their six posts after which shelling stopped in Mendhar, Balakote and Mankote sectors of Poonch district, which was going on since yesterday morning.
Official sources told the Excelsior that Pakistan might have suffered casualties in destruction of their posts, which were razed to ground in massive counter offensive launched by the troops to save lives of civilians. A woman and her daughter-in-law were killed on the LoC at Naika Panjgrain in Tarkundi-Manjakote yesterday while half a dozen civilians were injured.
The counter offensive, according to sources, was necessitated to silence Pakistani shelling and save the civilians, who had been trapped in their houses and bunkers since yesterday morning. There was no shelling in Mendhar, Balakote and Mankote since 3.30 pm onwards after the counter-assault of Army against the Pakistani troops.
The Army and BSF have revised their strategy recently to decimate the Pakistani posts to save civilian population on this side. “The strategy has been very successfully,” sources said, adding whenever and wherever the troops have taken this punitive action against Pakistan Army and Rangers, the shelling has stopped immediately as the enemy troops had to run for cover and it will take time for them to re-construct the troops. :lol: :lol: The re-construction is also being checked,” sources said.
“The Indian retaliation yesterday in which 14 Pakistani posts were destroyed was measured and accurate aimed at military targets rather than civilian population.
The coordinated fire assault by the BSF executed with complete precision destroyed number of Pakistan forward Morchas and Posts. Inputs suggested several casualties of Pakistani Rangers and serious damage to their 14 posts and numerous Pakistani bunkers,” a handout issued by DIG-cum-PRO BSF, Dharmendra Pareek, said.
He said Pakistani continued to pursue the strategy of unprovoked cross-border firing and shelling to push infiltrators and terrorists into India, which is being continuously foiled by the alert BSF troops.
Meanwhile, IG BSF, Jammu Frontiers, DK Upadhyaya told reporters today that Pakistan’s border guarding force was deliberately targeting civilian areas and its Army directly supporting the troops in the shelling on these areas and Indian posts along the International Border.
He said Pakistan Army is giving full support to Pakistan Rangers, which have violated ceasefire “countless” times in recent past.
“Pakistani forces are firing heavy mortars deliberately towards Indian civilian areas. BSF never fires towards any Pakistani civilian area. We fire only towards military bunkers from where Pakistani forces fire. We have inflicted heavy damage on 14 Pakistani bunkers,” he said.
However, he ruled out use of artillery by Pakistan troops in shelling on Indian areas.
“There is no proof of artillery being used by the Pakistani forces”, the BSF Jammu chief said
.
Thank you for posting this. This is the short term tactical goal - destroy their ability to target civilians and support infiltration.
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by Bart S »

I think keeping the border hot has two major advantages for India, and its a net win for us (especially since we have completed the fencing during the ceasefire period):

1> Psychologically keeps ordinary Indians aware of the enemy. This (innate Indian laxity and chalta hai attitude towards the very real war that is being waged against us, except for sporadic outbursts at the latest terrorist atrocity) is one of the biggest tools that TSP has against us. They keep attacking us constantly and our people are unaware of it and go all aman ki asha aided by the NDTV/Bollywood types. Better that the war (at least the low-intensity one on the borders), be out in the open so that it occupies mindspace and shapes our political and strategic culture. It is sad but true that most of our people need to be constantly reminded of the reality that Pakistan is a malicious hostile state so that we don't get lulled and go into aman ki asha and cricket diplomacy mode.

2> It gives us cover (and I am hoping we are doing it) for proactively attacking terrorist staging camps and other TSP infrastructure. Why should we wait till they get trained, staged, attempt to infiltrate or successfully do so and then attack us before we fight back? We need to stop them as early in the kill-chain as possible. Of course being responsible and peace loving etc, we should not fire the first shell/bullet but that moment/threshold ended decades ago, some would say right in 1947. It is obvious to all but the delusional or treasonous that they are waging war against us. I know this is mainly the politicians fault, but why should we always wait for them to attack us and fight back? That gives all the initiative and control to them, while we sit around waiting like modern day Prithviraj Chauhans to repulse the next assault. See an armed Paki/Terrorist (both words are synonymous) within 20km of the border? Kill them. Nobody who matters in India will shed a tear or complain. This needs to be the new normal.
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by Aditya G »

Pakis being, Paki.

http://www.indiatimes.com/news/india/in ... 64617.html
n a change of tack, the government will diplomatically pursue the release of Chandu Babulal Chavan, the Indian soldier who 'inadvertently' crossed over into PoK on September 29, the day Indian Army's surgical strikes took place on terror launch pads.

This is significant because until now only the Indian army DGMO (Director General of Military Operations), Ranbir Singh, had sought Chavan's release from his Pakistan counterpart. Official sources said since the Pakistan army had not responded to the plea that Chavan be released, the government felt it was important that the matter be taken up with the Pakistan foreign ministry. :evil:

The Ministry of External Affairs (MEA) had so far kept away from Chavan's case, allowing the army to handle the situation.

A 37 Rashtriya Rifles sepoy, Chavan was posted in the Mendhar sector in J&K when he was reported missing hours after the surgical strikes. On October 2, defence minister Manohar Parrikar had said that a 'well established mechanism through the DGMO' had been activated to seek Chavan's release. He had also said that since the situation was tense, it would take some time to bring him back.

India has denied any link between the surgical strikes and the disappearance of Chavan. The army has asserted that such inadvertent crossings by soldiers and civilians are not unusual and that there are existing mechanisms to ensure their return.

The army had hoped that Pakistan would return Chavan, a resident of Dhule in Maharashtra, despite the military standoff. "Now that there is no response from the Pakistan army, the matter is being strongly taken up with the Pakistan foreign ministry," said a source.

Pakistan had initially denied that Chavan was in its custody. On October 13 though, Indian government officials had said that the Pakistan DGMO had acknowledged that Chavan was in their custody and that he was being interrogated.
LOC

MEA is already seeking consular access to Indian 'spy' Kulbhushan Jadhav, who was allegedly arrested from Balochistan in March this year and booked for terrorism, but despite having issued 6 note verbale, it has failed to elicit any response from the Pakistan foreign ministry.

Chavan's family had earlier expressed fear that he might be tortured while in custody. "We are worried they will torture him, and tell him lies that the army doesn't care about him. That could drive him to take his own life," Bhushan Chavan, the captured soldier's brother and a soldier of Maratha Light Infantry, had said.
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by Aditya G »

http://www.deccanchronicle.com/nation/c ... s-loc.html
New Delhi: The Indian Army’s intelligence wing has detected at least four terror launch pads across the Line of Control near the Samba sector, where six people were killed on Tuesday due to incessant shelling by Pakistani forces.

According to a report, the Jaish-e-Muhammad launch pads were situated less than 5kms within the Pakistani side. It added that the Military Intelligence also observed ‘heavily armed men dressed in camouflage’ were seen being dropped at Pakistan's Nur-ul-Islam Border Outpost.

...

The report also noted that one of the launch pads was located just opposite the BSF border outpost at Paharpur in Kathua's Hiranagar sector.

The launch pads in question were reportedly set up by the LeT two years ago, but were redundant. The intelligence report is also in tune with the interrogation report of Abdul Qayoom, JuD chief Hafeez Saeed’s associate, which claimed that the organisation was sending terrorists to the launch pads to infiltrate into India and ‘explore Jammu and Kashmir as a possible target’.

The location of the terror camps were reportedly changed from PoK to the region within the Pakistani territory after the surgical strikes by India on September 29 to avoid future detection by the Indian Army.
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by Rana S »

Sanju wrote:Our goals need to be short-term, mid-term and long-term• The short-term and medium-term goals should aide us in achieving our long-term goals. Under short-term would fall such things as creating fires in the four corners of the abom-e-nation like the Baloch Independence, Sindh Independence, support to Afghanistan, and pasting them at the LOC with fire assaults & more.
Once we get them running around trying to put out the fires, we move on to the mid term goal of integrating Pok back into the Indian Union. Long term goals have been well articulated by others on this forum. This is from a security point of view. Similarly, economic & other national goals should be all dovetailing to create a comprehensive Roadmap for India.
I believe that the National Strategists are thinking along these lines
how about nuclear de-fanging in aid of the long/medium term goals. May be it has been discussed before to see what it would take

1. get humint on all sites - (may be we can start listing this to keep track)
2. strike with Bramaputra-Moskva
3. follow up with MKIs to strikes on the sites
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by Indranil »

AK sir,

I don't think that Sid's questions amounts to trolling. He is asking a genuine question. Current offensive operations makes sense in the short term, but what is the long term plan? Anybody who knows or can speculate is free to answer.

I would also advice you to stop personal attacks against other posters. Calling them from "the other side" is quite caustic.
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by Yagnasri »

AS you said this is only short term action. But in the long term the very fact, every action of Pakis will have massive reaction from our side, and that message has already gone. One of the reasons for this attacks may be that Nawaz in uniform wants an extension and once he retires the situation may change. In the meanwhile, we may be looking at Baluchistan and other methods.

One of the best results of the present actions is a message has already gone to pakis and internal pakis that Aman ki Asha drama is dead and buried. Entire media management is to show how and what pakis are doing. This has created a massive public support for GOI actions and shut lot of secular mouths. With this, the dilution of national will to deal with pakis has stopped, and we have collectively hardened ourselves. It is paramount that to have mango people support and now they are with the GOI almost entirely. We are also addressing other issue and purchase of S400 is anther indication of the efforts made.
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by jamwal »

Pak army company base in the Kel sector razed to the ground in response to mutilation of body of Indian army jawan. Artillery guns used.


Rahul Kanwal
https://twitter.com/rahulkanwal/status/ ... 7699081216
:twisted:
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by Sanju »

Rana S wrote:
how about nuclear de-fanging in aid of the long/medium term goals. May be it has been discussed before to see what it would take

1. get humint on all sites - (may be we can start listing this to keep track)
2. strike with Bramaputra-Moskva
3. follow up with MKIs to strikes on the sites
Hello Rana S,

Welcome to BRF!

Humint takes time and money and after IKG's time it had to be rebuilt. With Pigeon in the Centre, we have a person with practical experience and strategic mindset.

With regard to Humint on the Nuclear front , please read about former PM Desai's costly blunder. I hope you were talking about listing the sites and not the Humint! :-o :)
Though I don't know where we (BRF) will get the humint.

Pak is not the Mid-East (although from a Cultural aspect they have the w3t dream that they are). So it is not like Israel vs any of its neighbours. Moreover, Israel had the support of US which Pakistan has had (including its nuclear proliferation) for most of its life .

So we have to be careful what we can and when we can do it. Most importantly based on our past experience wit Pak, it is better not to talk of capability as much as displaying it.
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by Aditya G »

Wiped out. I like that word in relation with Pakistani posts.

No wonder Paki guns are silent....
Indian Army wiped out Pakistan’s company headquarters; killed 20 Pakistani soldiers to avenge beheading: Report
The Indian Army destroyed four Pakistan Army posts in its October 29 strike, inflicting immense damage and killing at least 20 Pakistani soldiers.
By: FE Online | Published: November 4, 2016 6:26 PM

The Indian Army destroyed four Pakistan Army posts in its October 29 strike, inflicting immense damage and killing at least 20 Pakistani soldiers, says an India Today report. According to a report on the channel, Pakistan’s company headquarters was razed as part of Indian Army counter-strike after the beheading of an Indian soldier. The report added that artillery was moved close to the LoC in order to Pakistan a befitting reply.

....
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by ranjan.rao »

^^^
The report added that artillery was moved close to the LoC in order to Pakistan a befitting reply.
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by Rana S »

Sanju Sir, Thank you for your welcome!

Totally agree with your points and yes, I am sure Pigeon and co have this covered. I was merely saying that this plan has to be in play even if it takes 5-10 years to build up the intel. This (targeting the strategic n-weapons) just has to be a smarter version of the massive retaliation as per doctrine. This way it could limit unnecessary civilian casualties. The sites would start from known reactors and related facilities of delivery systems, maybe Google chacha could help. Some sites are known anyway, for example cheen's Hainan island base is known to anyone who reads the news.

In any case, I am veering off topic here from the border to the final rites of pigletstan!

ps. Rana s !! I registered under Northturkistani.... never mind.
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by wig »

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/indi ... 02906.html

Third eye of the destroyer: Ground report on hidden cameras protecting the borders
Silently the 'Third Eye' scans the horizon in the dead of the night. A suspicious movement is noticed. From the control room a message is passed to the soldier with a gun and moments later the guns spit fire. The infiltrators spotted by the 'third eye' drop dead. The high resolution hand held thermal imagers are being described as the biggest force multipliers along the approximately 200 kilometre long international border in the Jammu sector.
The BSF has now initiated an ambitious plan to install a series of sophisticated thermal imagers both of foreign origin and domestically manufactured along the border. These are very well concealed fixed on branches of trees, border outposts and multiple other locations. Border security force personnel on ground describe these thermal imagers as the 'Third Eye of the Destroyer' (Lord Shiva).
"Pakistani infiltrators have not succeeded in dodging these cameras. Every movement is caught. Up gradation of technology is a continuous process and these have proven to be a major force multiplier," Dinesh Upadhyay, Inspector General Jammu Frontier told India Today.It is not that Pakistani infiltrators have not tried. Just two days ago a small group of infiltrators wrapped a thick blanket around themselves to conceal the heat signature emanating from their bodies. But the sensitive cameras captured the heat signature. The BSF personnel at the control room monitoring the area immediately alerted the personnel deployed at the nearest Border Out Post.
He could not open fire using his small arms because of the distance and the aim was to target the infiltrators before they reached the fence. Two mortar rounds were immediately fired and moments later the cameras captured one person pulling another injured person with him.
"This time there was no blanket and the silhouette of a weapon could also be made out.
These could have been terrorists trying to come close to the fence under cover of darkness to either infiltrate and reach our cities or a Pakistan army sniper trying to sneak close to the fence at night and then snipe at our personnel at dawn," sources said.

The destruction of Pakistani bunkers and outposts have also been effectively captured by the thermal imagers. "The Chenab Rangers (Pakistani rangers deployed opposite BSF in Jammu) have repeatedly tried to target the cameras. But they don't know where exactly are the cameras installed. We also have a number of decoy cameras. Twice they did succeed in targeting our decoy cameras. But not the real ones even once," sources added.
Apart from thermal imagers the BSF is already deploying laser fence and testing infra red fence along the international border especially in areas where installation of the regular fence is not possible. "The laser fence is a visible deterrent but the infra red fence cannot be seen but so far appear to be very effective in trials. We need to carry out more trials but technology is proving to be an effective force multiplier," said another official engaged in the task of border management.
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