India Border Watch: Security and Operations

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Zynda
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Zynda » 29 Nov 2016 13:52

Sad to hear news of our folks getting killed or injured from these turds. Them terrorists mofos must be really trained...not just basic training but advanced ones.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Bheeshma » 29 Nov 2016 14:01

Another surgical strike or missile strike needed. Preferable in pakjab.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Bart S » 29 Nov 2016 15:20

This is why their requests (to our DGMO etc) for de-escalation must be met by a response consisting of two words, one of which is 'off'.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby rrao » 29 Nov 2016 16:25

very sad to hear the loss of our soldiers lives. Now its very clear, why that paki DGMO showed white flag when their army a$$ got whipped by our army counter action. The paki strategy could be to keep LOC calm and make India bleed through the piglets sneaked in to J&K. so everyday there will be a fidayeen attack on our security forces by these piglets. Therefore for every terror attack on our soldiers,india should respond to pakis through heavy shelling at LOC.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Manish_P » 29 Nov 2016 17:47

Therefore for every terror attack on our soldiers,india should respond to pakis through heavy shelling at LOC.


And (hopefully sometime soon in the future)

With targetted or 'accidental' halal-ing of retired afsaran in shitisthan through paid or friendly assets

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Bart S » 29 Nov 2016 18:29

rrao wrote:Therefore for every terror attack on our soldiers,india should respond to pakis through heavy shelling at LOC.


There is the problem. Why wait for them to attack us and then respond. They will never make peace with us and will never stop trying to destroy us. If we haven't learned this from the last 70 years we are truly delusional and don't deserve to survive.

We need to keep attacking them proactively, before they attack us, to the point that they think twice before attempting any kind of provocation. Sure, they will retaliate, but we have the advantage both in a hot war and in battle of attrition, and they are anyway attacking us at their convenience even while we aren't doing anything to harm them, so being defensive or reactive from our side makes no sense.

Keeping the border hot also suits our overall economic and societal strangulation of Pakistan just fine, since it invariably results in the shrill ISPR types (and hence the dumbest and most useless Pakis) gaining prominence and snuffs out the few sensible people who remain and who might want to do stuff that genuinely strengthens them vs India, such as trade or controlling jihadis.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Kashi » 29 Nov 2016 18:48

Bart S wrote:We need to keep attacking them proactively, before they attack us, to the point that they think twice before attempting any kind of provocation.


I keep reading and hearing this that we need to attack them proactively or preemptively. That is music to this jingo's ears, but how do we exactly do that?
1. Keep the LoC/IB hot? Sure, but Pakis have demonstrated that they care two hoots for civvie suffering. Plus, we need huge inventory of guns/artillery/ammunition, which we are in the process of building. We also have to be mindful of our civilians in Jammu region, who'll bear the brunt of retaliation, unless of course we throw an iron dome over every inch of that area or have enough guns and gun-locating radars to seek out and pound Paki guns into silence. Do we have that?
2. Surgical strikes? Sure, how frequently and how many times do we send our best to take out the piglet camps that are located at every step?
3. Use proxies? Sure, do we have enough on the ground in Pakistan to do our dirty job? Especially after the disasters by Gujral in 1997 and the inaction during UPA I and II?
4. Missiles? Air strikes? Only if we can be sure of neutering Paki capabilities to respond in kind.

To strike proactively, we'll need to build up overwhelming capabilities to strike Pakistan at multiple fronts and also fend off their benefactors US and China. Are we getting there? It seems so, but it will take time.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby A Sharma » 29 Nov 2016 19:26

7 soldiers including 2 officers killed in Nagrota :NDTV

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Sumair » 29 Nov 2016 19:37

The only and only appropriate response is nothing less than complete devastation of artillery officers mess Rawalpindi during dinner hours

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Bheeshma » 29 Nov 2016 19:47

Another airstrike or surgical hit at the PA arty HQ is required. This low level killing pathetic PA soldiers won't suffice any more.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Bart S » 29 Nov 2016 19:56

Kashi wrote:
Bart S wrote:We need to keep attacking them proactively, before they attack us, to the point that they think twice before attempting any kind of provocation.


I keep reading and hearing this that we need to attack them proactively or preemptively. That is music to this jingo's ears, but how do we exactly do that?
1. Keep the LoC/IB hot? Sure, but Pakis have demonstrated that they care two hoots for civvie suffering. Plus, we need huge inventory of guns/artillery/ammunition, which we are in the process of building. We also have to be mindful of our civilians in Jammu region, who'll bear the brunt of retaliation, unless of course we throw an iron dome over every inch of that area or have enough guns and gun-locating radars to seek out and pound Paki guns into silence. Do we have that?
2. Surgical strikes? Sure, how frequently and how many times do we send our best to take out the piglet camps that are located at every step?
3. Use proxies? Sure, do we have enough on the ground in Pakistan to do our dirty job? Especially after the disasters by Gujral in 1997 and the inaction during UPA I and II?
4. Missiles? Air strikes? Only if we can be sure of neutering Paki capabilities to respond in kind.

To strike proactively, we'll need to build up overwhelming capabilities to strike Pakistan at multiple fronts and also fend off their benefactors US and China. Are we getting there? It seems so, but it will take time.


Sir, all good points. However, we will never be fully prepared or fully equipped to everyone's satisfaction (nevertheless we need to fill the gaps that you mentioned urgently, no arguments there). As they say, perfect is the enemy of good. Also, whatever problems we have, they have multiple X more of. It's a high-stakes game of chicken, except that we seem to back down at the first opportunity.

The problem is that we are playing the game on their terms. We need to change the terms, or play a different game. Right now they are just toying with us. To recap the last few days: Their BAT sucker punched us by ambushing a patrol team and mutilating our soldiers in a barbaric manner. We opened heavy fire on their posts. They immediately called our DGMO and managed to stop it and get much needed respite on their side. Parrikar was all over the media bragging about how they begged for mercy, and there were a lot of smug people celebrating the 'quiet' on the border. A couple of days later they sucker punch us again by attacking an army camp.

Do you not see a problem with this vicious cycle?

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Bheeshma » 29 Nov 2016 20:20

Its not a problem if we keep hitting them . Let the next round begin kill 20-30 of their troops and let the DGMO beg again.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Sid » 29 Nov 2016 20:26

RIP brave souls.

All thoughts come to mind, from grief to anger. But I hope their sacrifice don't go in vain. Only thing I can say is current situation is not sustainable in the long run and even a single life lost is unacceptable.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby jamwal » 29 Nov 2016 20:39

Image

Dead pakis

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Bheeshma » 29 Nov 2016 20:44

Watch for a hit on pakistan soon. But again at a place and time of our choosing.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby VKumar » 29 Nov 2016 21:11

Dressed in police uniform,they attacked the mess of 166 Artillery unit. Thanks to prompt action by the troops, a hostage situation was averted officers wives and children were dining there. Again and again, our perimeter security - Pathankot, Uri and now here - is proven to be awful. Seems like our Armed Forces are not alert in their camps. As previously, heads will roll but what about the heads that are lost? Strict measures must be implemented at all base camps. It must be considered that to be safe, one must be sure! as they say, 'trust but verify'.

The terrorists have adopted a modus operandi of dressing up in police or army uniforms and then sneaking into the camp and going into the mess - this is what they did in Pathankot, in Uri and today. Goes without saying that there must be local assistance. This local assistance angle must be investigated and Intelligence agencies must uncover the rats who collaborate with the enemy. Let us secure our house before we blame others for exploiting our weaknesses.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby sudeepj » 29 Nov 2016 21:50

Manish_P wrote:
Therefore for every terror attack on our soldiers,india should respond to pakis through heavy shelling at LOC.


And (hopefully sometime soon in the future)

With targetted or 'accidental' halal-ing of retired afsaran in shitisthan through paid or friendly assets


Exactly.. Destroying Pak bunkers and isolated posts along the LOC are soft targets. Pak Generals dont really care that some Seraiki, Kashmiri or some Baloch soldiers die. They are willing to fight till the last Seraiki, Kashmiri, Baloch!!

Its time to reach out and touch the Pak officer corps.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Rakesh » 29 Nov 2016 21:56

New Pakistani Army Chief takes command on the day of terror attack on Indian Army unit in Nagrota
http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/pakistan-army-chief-qamar-javed-bajwa-jammu-nagrota-samba-terror-attack/1/822179.html

Moral: Preview of my tenure as Pak Army Chief.

He is begging for an ass-whupping. We are obliged to give it to him.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby IndraD » 29 Nov 2016 22:11

Manish_P wrote:With targetted or 'accidental' halal-ing of retired afsaran in shitisthan through paid or friendly assets

going by how Dawood & other &^%$£"! have survived so long in Pk one wonders if India has any assets in Pados.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Karthik S » 29 Nov 2016 22:16

Does garuthmaa need further tests?

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby milano » 29 Nov 2016 22:16

Bheeshma wrote:Watch for a hit on pakistan soon. But again at a place and time of our choosing.


I agree that something will happen. At this point, not to do something will reverse any gains that the GoI has made in showing that, unlike the previous regime(s), we will not sit back impotently. Plus, to do nothing would definitely increase the pitch and volume of noises about our surgical strikes and aggressive posture being to no avail and talks being the only answer. I have trust that once the PMO, NSA and Armed Forces had decided on strategy post-Pathankot, that they had already gamed out the next 8-10 steps.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Rakesh » 29 Nov 2016 22:17

Karthik S wrote:Does garuthmaa need further tests?

For folks who do not know what Garuthmaa is...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DRDO_Glide_Bombs

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Khalsa » 30 Nov 2016 00:36

Seething in anger.
Interesting to observe that they have sent a very direct message by hitting an artillery unit, a unit of the corps that has been decimating them for the last one week.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby ramana » 30 Nov 2016 00:41

Karthik S wrote:Does garuthmaa need further tests?


DRDO is always in futuristic mode. Never make useful products that can be used immediately.
Needs eternal testing than even US products in USA.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby ramana » 30 Nov 2016 00:46

^^^ Above in frustration.

Buggers have no idea what is a national mission.
Elastic schedules always stretch.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby schinnas » 30 Nov 2016 00:52

Khalsa wrote:Seething in anger.
Interesting to observe that they have sent a very direct message by hitting an artillery unit, a unit of the corps that has been decimating them for the last one week.


Yes. It seems to a hand picked target (not just because of targetability but because of the symbolism / message). Pukis are effectively saying that they will not give up cross border terrorism but instead use it as a means of retaliation. Our response should be 10x pounding of Pukis for every such act. This demands 70 casualities from PA including 20 PA officers.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Bart S » 30 Nov 2016 01:10

schinnas wrote:
Khalsa wrote:Seething in anger.
Interesting to observe that they have sent a very direct message by hitting an artillery unit, a unit of the corps that has been decimating them for the last one week.


Yes. It seems to a hand picked target (not just because of targetability but because of the symbolism / message). Pukis are effectively saying that they will not give up cross border terrorism but instead use it as a means of retaliation. Our response should be 10x pounding of Pukis for every such act. This demands 70 casualities from PA including 20 PA officers.


It also demands wartime-like protocol in the valley. No more kid glove treatment for LeT/JeM/ISI overground workers :evil:

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby khan » 30 Nov 2016 01:48

According to the economic times, they stormed their way in and didn't just walk in:

On Tuesday morning, at around 5:45 am a group of heavily armed militants, dressed as policemen, lobbed grenade at an entrance of an Army installation (166 artillery unit) in garrison town of Nagrota, near Jammu, and stormed inside, triggering a fierce gunbattle.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Rishi Verma » 30 Nov 2016 01:51

It's time to open a naval front, sink couple of the mofos ships then see who docks at gwadar.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby ranjan.rao » 30 Nov 2016 01:53

^^The message is loud and clear,
1. Any hopes of this TSPA chief being pro democracy or considering terrorism bigger threat than india is just hot air.

2. Like you all, my blood too boils with the martyrdom of our brave soldiers and officers. They have thrown a challenge, I am sure IA or Indian millitary is more than capable of respond.

3. If it were to me, "to hell with this gradual escalation ladder". We use our airpower and enforce a no fly zone and no man's land around LOC or we sink some ships in karachi or destroy their crops in Punjab.

4. They are escalating things in the hope that we have some upper limit that we won't go beyond, that queer notion of theirs needs to be broken and hammered hard and repeatedly that the message gets ingrained in their memories.

5. Hope we all prepare for this, as this will be a path full of sustained sacrifices.

Honestly, I think this is the right time for us to strike, for any further delays will only increase chances of china getting involved in the conflict

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby ranjan.rao » 30 Nov 2016 01:55

Bart S wrote:
schinnas wrote:
It also demands wartime-like protocol in the valley. No more kid glove treatment for LeT/JeM/ISI overground workers :evil:


Those be**c**s should be sodomized and tortured in their own quranic/islamic/middle eastern ways that they realize what it is to mess with us..

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby SBajwa » 30 Nov 2016 02:10

At least burn the bodies of the dead terrorists with pig fat!

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby saip » 30 Nov 2016 02:16

I read somewhere that the new British notes have animal fat, could be pig fat. May be we should start a rumor that the new 2000 rupee notes besides having a tracking chip contain pig fat.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby prahaar » 30 Nov 2016 02:43

I understood from twitter that there were two families (including babies) at risk at the Nagrota base, hence the haste and resulting casualties from the rescue operation. It seems PA had planned a 2001sque attack to kill families of IA, Pathankot was on the same lines.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby sudeepj » 30 Nov 2016 03:55

Medium guns should be stationed all along the IB and LOC with targets already dialed in. As soon as a terror strike occurs, the counter strike should be given a go ahead too. Dont worry about all that evidence and shit.. We know they are guilty.

As the terror strike begins, It should be the Paks who start the worrying..

A jingo can only dream. :-(

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby schinnas » 30 Nov 2016 03:58

khan wrote:According to the economic times, they stormed their way in and didn't just walk in:

On Tuesday morning, at around 5:45 am a group of heavily armed militants, dressed as policemen, lobbed grenade at an entrance of an Army installation (166 artillery unit) in garrison town of Nagrota, near Jammu, and stormed inside, triggering a fierce gunbattle.


This inability to immediately assess how many intruders are in is concerning. In Pathankot as well, there were reports of 6 intruders which later got reduced to 4 as only 4 bodies were recovered. In Nagrota, we should have clear evidence if we had operating surveilance cameras as they all came through the entrance.

Not clearly knowing how many came inside, leads to all sorts of confusion and prolongation of the operation. All military bases in India, regardless of location, need very thorough electronic surveilance of their periphery.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby GShankar » 30 Nov 2016 04:10

Seems like the parting gift from Raheel? Either directly from him or on his behalf.

Now that we are open to conducting surgeries, we need to plan some of these ahead of time in a pro-active manner instead of reacting after the fact.

We should have planned a send-off party..

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby sudeepj » 30 Nov 2016 04:52

Fact of the matter is, troops who are not oriented towards counter insurgency, such as armor/arty/AF units will be comparatively softer targets for terrorists. These guys are trained for joint operations and fast moving battles, not for sneak attacks like the ones in Pathankot, Nagrota, etc. To expect sf type assault tactics and room to room clearing drills from these troops is a bit much. Offence is the best defense in these cases.. Paki armor and arty units are as vulnerable if not more to such tactics.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Rudradev » 30 Nov 2016 05:15

prahaar wrote:I understood from twitter that there were two families (including babies) at risk at the Nagrota base, hence the haste and resulting casualties from the rescue operation. It seems PA had planned a 2001sque attack to kill families of IA, Pathankot was on the same lines.


Clearly the intent was a repeat of Kaluchak which almost provoked the Parakram deployment to boil over.

The Pakis are trying to show that they still control the escalation ladder. We can overpower them in conventional (including Spec Ops driven) retaliations: surgical strike, fire assault, etc. But at the end of the day they can just as easily escalate along the ladder of terrorism atrocities: ratchet up to mutilation/beheading, then attack on servicemen's families including women and children.

Their message is: at some point, Modi's policy of wilfully going up the conventional escalation ladder will have consequences that India doesn't want to deal with... e.g. missile strikes or airstrikes will be retaliated against in kind, particularly if they are not against conventional military targets. Ultimately, a brigade/IBG level combined arms action by India (what used to be known as "Cold Start") will come to the point where they will use tactical nukes.

In other words the Pakis realized that our 28/9 surgical strike was a direct challenge to their narrative of escalation invariably leading to a nuclear flashpoint... and now, by escalating along the terrorism atrocity scale, they are trying to force us back into accepting that logic once again.

Our medium/long-term strategy must be to keep poking holes in that logic (visibly and in full view of the international community) so that at every turn, the Pakis' credibility to conduct nuclear blackmail is punctured and undermined.

Whatever we do must go beyond simply giving us a nice, satisfying body count of Pakis (even high-value Pakis). It must be an audacious, humiliating rejection of the idea that Pakistan could escalate further while retaining control of even their own country (let alone the escalation ladder).

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby ranjan.rao » 30 Nov 2016 05:25

RD Sir, your points about porki strategy are spot on
"Whatever we do must go beyond simply giving us a nice, satisfying body count of Pakis (even high-value Pakis). It must be an audacious, humiliating rejection of the idea that Pakistan could go further while retaining control of the escalation ladder."


However, their actions are completely in their hands and not in ours. The fact that they are not rational, sane and what not, is limits the hand of any sane leader in short term. Even if we do something audacious the jihadi pigs will do something equally audacious. My viewpoint is till the time we are prepared for a final push, we should continue to inflict acute pain on them, bear the pain, and wait and watch and go for the kill when we are ready.


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