India Border Watch: Security and Operations

All threads that are locked or marked for deletion will be moved to this forum. The topics will be cleared from this archive on the 1st and 16th of each month.
Locked
abhik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3090
Joined: 02 Feb 2009 17:42

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by abhik »

The best time to "resolve" the J&K problem was 1947/48. The Pakis did not wait for 20 years, by which time India was supposed to have collapsed as per many international pundits, but took the initiative and captured a good chunk of our land.
DrRatnadip
BRFite
Posts: 604
Joined: 31 Dec 2016 00:40

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by DrRatnadip »

Aditya G wrote:If economy was everything, then NoKo, Syria, Russia etc all would have been invaded and destroyed by US.
.
If it is not economy then i dont know why GOI is not punishing pak for its sins...They encourage stone pelters, openly support separists, kill and frequently mutilate our soldiers..And we tend to punch much bellow our weight..We just lack national will to accept and absorb economic loss..I sincerly feel that every time we accept mutilated bodies of our soldiers without paying back pakis we fail as a nation..I "had " too much faith on Modi And Doval sir..But slowly that faith is going away. .More or less this is the case with many fellow indians.. We must avenge loss of our soldiers and that too in some or other visible way.. If China is blocking our bid against Hafiz Sayeed then we must target his location with brohmos.. We must kill every person who challenge us.. I genuinely feel that aircraft carriers will not earn us respect..Its will to fight for our pride , will to punish every entity who challenges our authority..

If we as a nation care more about why Kattappa killed Bahubali and less about how to avenge loss of our brave soldiers we unfortunately dont deserve seat in UN security council..

Sorry if i spoke more than i should..
Bheeshma
BRFite
Posts: 592
Joined: 15 Aug 2016 22:01

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by Bheeshma »

Who said they are not avenged? GoI or IA simply do not tom-tom the killings of pakis and pakis as usual try to hide their losses. Instead of breast beating we need to have some confidence in GoI and IA.
ArjunPandit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4056
Joined: 29 Mar 2017 06:37

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by ArjunPandit »

DrRatnadip wrote:
Aditya G wrote:If economy was everything, then NoKo, Syria, Russia etc all would have been invaded and destroyed by US.
.
If it is not economy then i dont know why GOI is not punishing pak for its sins...They encourage stone pelters, openly support separists, kill and frequently mutilate our soldiers..And we tend to punch much bellow our weight..We just lack national will to accept and absorb economic loss..I sincerly feel that every time we accept mutilated bodies of our soldiers without paying back pakis we fail as a nation..I "had " too much faith on Modi And Doval sir..But slowly that faith is going away. .More or less this is the case with many fellow indians.. We must avenge loss of our soldiers and that too in some or other visible way.. If China is blocking our bid against Hafiz Sayeed then we must target his location with brohmos.. We must kill every person who challenge us.. I genuinely feel that aircraft carriers will not earn us respect..Its will to fight for our pride , will to punish every entity who challenges our authority..

If we as a nation care more about why Kattappa killed Bahubali and less about how to avenge loss of our brave soldiers we unfortunately dont deserve seat in UN security council..

Sorry if i spoke more than i should..
+100
Prem
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21233
Joined: 01 Jul 1999 11:31
Location: Weighing and Waiting 8T Yconomy

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by Prem »

https://twitter.com/Defence_360/status/ ... 7484607488
The intensity of shelling is so high that the skies are lit up ...as per unofficial reports as many as 20.
disha
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 8246
Joined: 03 Dec 2006 04:17
Location: gaganaviharin

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by disha »

Is the balloon going up? Gone up? Just curious.
Surya
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5034
Joined: 05 Mar 2001 12:31

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by Surya »

BSF pulled back and Army letting loose with arty
Bart S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2938
Joined: 15 Aug 2016 00:03

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by Bart S »

Prem wrote:https://twitter.com/Defence_360/status/ ... 7484607488
The intensity of shelling is so high that the skies are lit up ...as per unofficial reports as many as 20.
No credible source is covering that so far. I very much wish it's true, but there are too many idiots and attention seekers on social media these days so best to wait for a better source to confirm.

That picture is not of Indian artillery but US and is ripped off from here:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/201 ... opped-to-/
Nikhil T
BRFite
Posts: 1286
Joined: 09 Nov 2008 06:48
Location: RAW HQ, Lodhi Road

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by Nikhil T »

^ agree with above.

I wish we retaliate in a way that can't be matched. AFAIK after surgical strikes (Sep 28, 2016), there was an upswing in violence at LoC and we lost nearly 20 soldiers in next two months.
http://www.newindianexpress.com/nation/ ... 42254.html
Cosmo_R
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3407
Joined: 24 Apr 2010 01:24

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by Cosmo_R »

Stop and start and reactive never works. We have to initiate strikes and they have to be continuous. Let the pakis also worry about defense. That is how you keep your capabilities well oiled and ready.

If Dovalji has not put this strategy in place, we're sunk. Elephant/Hippo guarding against hyena attacks, Zebras admitting necessary sacrifices for the well being of the herd. It's not viable in the long term (5 years).

Not having a full time Min of Defense is also worrisome. Jet Li doesn't have what it takes.
malushahi
BRFite
Posts: 351
Joined: 16 Jul 2008 03:08
Location: South of Berkshires

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by malushahi »

https://twitter.com/gauravcsawant/statu ... 1965623300
GAURAV C SAWANT‏ @gauravcsawant

2 Pak posts that gave cover fire to Pak BAT razed to ground, army sources tell me & this is not even the beginning of India's real response
Bheeshma
BRFite
Posts: 592
Joined: 15 Aug 2016 22:01

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by Bheeshma »

A good strategy is to give targets or goals to the army. If this week you killed 5 pakis, next week it should be 10 and then 15 ..no draw down or rest. Just keep killing as many as possible.
A simple pooch. How do we know if these paki posts were occupied? Given the paki nature to run away at the slightest hint of trouble they may have decamped. I wish we hit something like battalion HQ or something inside pakjab.
salaam
BRFite
Posts: 315
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by salaam »

Khalsa
BRFite
Posts: 1769
Joined: 12 Nov 2000 12:31
Location: NZL

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by Khalsa »

disha wrote:Is the balloon going up? Gone up? Just curious.
No .... if the act of torturing and mutilating our soldiers in peacetime can become normal (in Pakistan (denials not counting)).
Then the act of pulverising across the LoC will be normalised (in our view and our land).

This will not be WAR.
J&K will continue to be a hot border.
Prem
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21233
Joined: 01 Jul 1999 11:31
Location: Weighing and Waiting 8T Yconomy

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by Prem »

This is opportunity to test ATAGS if ready even half way decent. I wish there IA figure out how top take Skardu out using artillery. May be have few special long range guns to punish Paki every night.
Pathik
BRFite
Posts: 569
Joined: 16 Aug 2016 05:22

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by Pathik »

ArjunPandit wrote:
DrRatnadip wrote:
If it is not economy then i dont know why GOI is not punishing pak for its sins...They encourage stone pelters, openly support separists, kill and frequently mutilate our soldiers..And we tend to punch much bellow our weight..We just lack national will to accept and absorb economic loss..I sincerly feel that every time we accept mutilated bodies of our soldiers without paying back pakis we fail as a nation..I "had " too much faith on Modi And Doval sir..But slowly that faith is going away. .More or less this is the case with many fellow indians.. We must avenge loss of our soldiers and that too in some or other visible way.. If China is blocking our bid against Hafiz Sayeed then we must target his location with brohmos.. We must kill every person who challenge us.. I genuinely feel that aircraft carriers will not earn us respect..Its will to fight for our pride , will to punish every entity who challenges our authority..

If we as a nation care more about why Kattappa killed Bahubali and less about how to avenge loss of our brave soldiers we unfortunately dont deserve seat in UN security council..

Sorry if i spoke more than i should..
+100
True. History only remembers wars and winners and no in betweens. Muh tod jawab or nothing at all. I guess the total random beheadings of indian soldiers since 47 must have crossed at least 100 in number by now
chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 32294
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by chetak »

Khalsa wrote:
disha wrote:Is the balloon going up? Gone up? Just curious.
No .... if the act of torturing and mutilating our soldiers in peacetime can become normal (in Pakistan (denials not counting)).
Then the act of pulverising across the LoC will be normalised (in our view and our land).

This will not be WAR.
J&K will continue to be a hot border.
mutilation is a long standing barbaric islamic centuries old terror tactic.

the SOB's only understand brute strength and are cowed down only when buggered in the battle field.

Any solution based on talk and discussion only shows your fear and this encourages them to greater barbarism.

take them out where ever you see them.
Khalsa
BRFite
Posts: 1769
Joined: 12 Nov 2000 12:31
Location: NZL

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by Khalsa »

chetak wrote:
Khalsa wrote:
No .... if the act of torturing and mutilating our soldiers in peacetime can become normal (in Pakistan (denials not counting)).
Then the act of pulverising across the LoC will be normalised (in our view and our land).

This will not be WAR.
J&K will continue to be a hot border.
mutilation is a long standing barbaric islamic centuries old terror tactic.

the SOB's only understand brute strength and are cowed down only when buggered in the battle field.

Any solution based on talk and discussion only shows your fear and this encourages them to greater barbarism.

take them out where ever you see them.
Agreed. Time to show them their rightful place, amongst their virgin-72s
sudeepj
BRFite
Posts: 1976
Joined: 27 Nov 2008 11:25

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by sudeepj »

Killing a few mango Pakis on the border is besides the point. Since when did Paki generals care enough about their soldiers and mango people any way? Any casualty will be used to whip up even more 'hate India' campaigns and so on. In any case, we wont kill enough to make a meaningful difference and symbolic strikes serve no other purpose than propaganda. Which is better than nothing I suppose.

What we need to do is not raze the border outposts but targeted killing of the colonel of the battalion or the brigadier of the brigade that launched the attack. Kill his family. Instead of killing 5 mangos, kill 5 of the officer class that runs the show.

One well directed krasnopol shell on the battalion mess (should be at least a few in range of the newer guns) or during the morning prayer is all it takes.
putnanja
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4665
Joined: 26 Mar 2002 12:31
Location: searching for the next al-qaida #3

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by putnanja »

sudeepj wrote:Killing a few mango Pakis on the border is besides the point. Since when did Paki generals care enough about their soldiers and mango people any way? Any casualty will be used to whip up even more 'hate India' campaigns and so on. In any case, we wont kill enough to make a meaningful difference and symbolic strikes serve no other purpose than propaganda. Which is better than nothing I suppose.

What we need to do is not raze the border outposts but targeted killing of the colonel of the battalion or the brigadier of the brigade that launched the attack. Kill his family. Instead of killing 5 mangos, kill 5 of the officer class that runs the show.

One well directed krasnopol shell on the battalion mess (should be at least a few in range of the newer guns) or during the morning prayer is all it takes.
Target the HQ, in Kargil we hit their Skardu HQ. If its possible again, hit it, or take out few high ranking officers, preferably brigadiers and above. Pakis have zero concerns about their own ordinary soldiers, and that has stayed true from 1971 till Kargil, where they refused to accept their dead. Their own soldiers are cannon fodder.

Target their higher officers, who come up with these tactical ideas without caring about their own at the LoC. And hit them hard, take out a few of them. Hit the HQ so that its visible, and causes deterrant. Anything less is useless as pakis themselves don't care for their non-officer soldiers.
chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 32294
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by chetak »

putnanja wrote:
sudeepj wrote:Killing a few mango Pakis on the border is besides the point. Since when did Paki generals care enough about their soldiers and mango people any way? Any casualty will be used to whip up even more 'hate India' campaigns and so on. In any case, we wont kill enough to make a meaningful difference and symbolic strikes serve no other purpose than propaganda. Which is better than nothing I suppose.

What we need to do is not raze the border outposts but targeted killing of the colonel of the battalion or the brigadier of the brigade that launched the attack. Kill his family. Instead of killing 5 mangos, kill 5 of the officer class that runs the show.

One well directed krasnopol shell on the battalion mess (should be at least a few in range of the newer guns) or during the morning prayer is all it takes.
Target the HQ, in Kargil we hit their Skardu HQ. If its possible again, hit it, or take out few high ranking officers, preferably brigadiers and above. Pakis have zero concerns about their own ordinary soldiers, and that has stayed true from 1971 till Kargil, where they refused to accept their dead. Their own soldiers are cannon fodder.

Target their higher officers, who come up with these tactical ideas without caring about their own at the LoC. And hit them hard, take out a few of them. Hit the HQ so that its visible, and causes deterrant. Anything less is useless as pakis themselves don't care for their non-officer soldiers.
every time there is some state visit, the pakis show their true colors.

They are watching you very very very carefully across the border to discern troop and patrol movement patterns, SOPs and alertness.

Why do we get caught time and again?? It's the same old story.

expressions of "kadi nindha", "time of our choosing", rinse and repeat ad nauseum.

At times like these, bring your weapons to the ready in a very obvious manner, before the visit, and unleash everything on them including the kitchen sink.
putnanja
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4665
Joined: 26 Mar 2002 12:31
Location: searching for the next al-qaida #3

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by putnanja »

If I remember right, the last time such beheadings happened too, it was either the paki COAS or some higher officer visiting the LoC, just like this time. Next time, organize a fire party whenever any of their senior officers visit LoC, be proactive, and if possible take out few of their top. shameless terrorists in uniform, teach them in the language they understand
DrRatnadip
BRFite
Posts: 604
Joined: 31 Dec 2016 00:40

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by DrRatnadip »

sudeepj wrote:Killing a few mango Pakis on the border is besides the point. Since when did Paki generals care enough about their soldiers and mango people any way? Any casualty will be used to whip up even more 'hate India' campaigns and so on. In any case, we wont kill enough to make a meaningful difference and symbolic strikes serve no other purpose than propaganda. Which is better than nothing I suppose.

What we need to do is not raze the border outposts but targeted killing of the colonel of the battalion or the brigadier of the brigade that launched the attack. Kill his family. Instead of killing 5 mangos, kill 5 of the officer class that runs the show.

One well directed krasnopol shell on the battalion mess (should be at least a few in range of the newer guns) or during the morning prayer is all it takes.
+108 sir..Massively visible responce against real planners of these BAT operations is need of hour..
Unfortunately Pakis are trying to do something similar to us ..Since artillary is punishing them hard they are reapeatedly trying to target our artilary units with ununiformed jihadis..Its time we strike fear in paki officer corps..
I have full faith in our army..Army will punish them ..I just hope this time higher officers pay for this mischief..
Also i feel articles in media like 'army given free hand" etc should be stopped.. I want pakis to cry so loud that their cries are herd in all major capitals..
Karthik S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5380
Joined: 18 Sep 2009 12:12

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by Karthik S »

Time to take back PoK, we have enough justification now if worrying about log kya kahenge.
DrRatnadip
BRFite
Posts: 604
Joined: 31 Dec 2016 00:40

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by DrRatnadip »

Karthik S wrote:Time to take back PoK, we have enough justification now if worrying about log kya kahenge.
That should be our ultimate goal..
SajeevJino
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 55
Joined: 03 Sep 2016 22:14

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by SajeevJino »

Chapter 1

India's retaliation SOP


[Sequence mode On ] Attack Happens, IA suffers causality, Govt give free hands to IA to dealt with the incident, Action Ends, Hands tied again [Sequence mode on ]

waiting for the same to repeat again

Open chapter 1 and do the Sequence mode again,
kmkraoind
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3908
Joined: 27 Jun 2008 00:24

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by kmkraoind »

Prem wrote:https://twitter.com/Defence_360/status/ ... 7484607488
The intensity of shelling is so high that the skies are lit up ...as per unofficial reports as many as 20.
Just a request. For such news, plz post the content in full. Now the original link is dead. TIA.
Marten
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2176
Joined: 01 Jan 2010 21:41
Location: Engaging Communists, Uber-Socialists, Maoists, and other pro-poverty groups in fruitful dialog.

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by Marten »

The fact that the link was pulled means either it is false (from a previous incident), or we are entering a soft state of war where arty will rain down death across multiple sectors (while Baki Jarnails go around the country having high tea and pretending the chaps that died deserved heaven, hoors etc.).
Deans
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2510
Joined: 26 Aug 2004 19:13
Location: Moscow

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by Deans »

I wonder if IA has moved more artillery to the LOC, since it would reasonably have judged that we are going to be in for a hot summer in
Kashmir. We need to outnumber Pak 2:1 in heavy artillery, if large scale fire assaults (which I think are is simplest way of retaliating and causing visible damage) are going to work. One of our 2 artillery divisions should be on the LOC along with our SMERSH & Pinaka regiments and the bulk of our gun locating radars & drones.
Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 20773
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by Karan M »

For now we have a nationalist Govt, not headed by crooks. So hope remains.

The two main things to wage decisive conflict are training & serviceability of equipment. The latter is how UPA hamstrung the forces. Now that is being addressed. Its a shame Parrikar was taken out and sent to Goa. Even so, with the ammunition restocking underway & Su-30s et al achieving decent serviceability levels, our warmaking capacity will increase. The key thing is to open the spigot to Bharat Forge et al, bypassing the near defunct OFB. Until this is done, the ammo situation will not resolve in plenty.

If this Govt is serious, there is no reason why we cannot order some 500 Dhanush & 500 of Bharat Forge's 155mm gun while ATAGs is ready. And stockpile 155mm ammo. Similar provisions for small arms to FSAPDS.

This will itself provide the depth, and fire assaults which backup to wage constant surgical strikes and lure BATs into ambushes and constantly attrit the TSPA's war making capability.

Unless this is done, we will continue to bleed.
Deans
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2510
Joined: 26 Aug 2004 19:13
Location: Moscow

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by Deans »

Among non military measures, any reason why we can't to all of the following immediately:

1. Stop the Wagah border tamasha. We can do our flag ceremony, behind a closed gate.
2. End cross border trade, particularly Kashmir, which is a means to finance terrorism / stone pelting etc, by over-invoicing. (that includes
power exports, in case Capt is still in love with Pak).
3. Visas reduced to a trickle (e.g. for unavoidable Pak govt delegations).
4. Stop PIA from operating in India - its a 9/11 waiting to happen.
Karthik S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5380
Joined: 18 Sep 2009 12:12

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by Karthik S »

First declare pak a terrorist state. RS MP Rajiv C brought in private member bill to declare pak that, but it didn't pass.
nam
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4712
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by nam »

Most of the Paki attacks, which might force GoI to act happens in the second half of a year.

A attack in May(Kalkauck attack 2002) means the deserts are super hot. It will rain soon and the Kutch area will be swamped, fundamentally restricting India reaction in mountains where the passes will be clearing.

A attack in July (Mumbai train bombing) heavy rainy session... again restricting action to J&k mountains.

An attack in Sep/Oct/Nov/Dec (26/11, Parliament, Aksradam, J&K Assembly) means passes closed, kutch swamped, restricting major across IB desert & Punjab. Generally these months are when there is major Paki terror attack.

So Pakis try to restrict Indian response to particular region, so as to concentrate their forces.

This attack seems to be trying to tie us in a knot similar to the Bangladesh incident, where Hasina was in power and BDR killed our troops. Modi seems to be doing some back channel with Nawaz directly and PA hit two birds with a stone. Modi will be pressurized to act, but to keep the back channel going he has to hold himself off. Nawaz would have to respond, if Modi acts there by negating the back channel.

Ofcourse we are idiots, who fall for this Nawaz PA game. Nawaz acts like the loser who wants peace, allowing PA to constantly attack us. GoI goes extra length trying save the back channel.
nam
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4712
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by nam »

One thing I am yet to understand is how are Pakis able to maintain conflict (even low level) against India, Afghanistan, Iranian border, Baluchistan & Waristan.

How come Pakis are able to beg/borrow/manufacture ammo for 5 fronts? while we crib all the time.

It sounds so bizzare that India which haven't fought a major war since 2003 is always short of ammo, while the bl***dy Pakis have been bombing & killing thousands since years and yet have time to needle a country having 8 times it's GDP.
fanne
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4283
Joined: 11 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by fanne »

Because in tsp the army has a country.
Bart S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2938
Joined: 15 Aug 2016 00:03

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by Bart S »

nam wrote:One thing I am yet to understand is how are Pakis able to maintain conflict (even low level) against India, Afghanistan, Iranian border, Baluchistan & Waristan.

How come Pakis are able to beg/borrow/manufacture ammo for 5 fronts? while we crib all the time.

It sounds so bizzare that India which haven't fought a major war since 2003 is always short of ammo, while the bl***dy Pakis have been bombing & killing thousands since years and yet have time to needle a country having 8 times it's GDP.
Several reasons for that:
1> Our production agencies for the most part are unionized socialist hellholes where productivity goes to die, and no GOI or political party seems to have the b@lls to tackle that fundamental problem
2> Production of weapons in Poakistan is given top priority and everything is directly fasttracked
3> While we are planning for war wastages etc, all they are doing really is equipping themselves for terrorism and low-grade guerilla warfare. Much simpler to do.
nam
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4712
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by nam »

Bart S wrote: Several reasons for that:
1> Our production agencies for the most part are unionized socialist hellholes where productivity goes to die, and no GOI or political party seems to have the b@lls to tackle that fundamental problem
2> Production of weapons in Poakistan is given top priority and everything is directly fasttracked
3> While we are planning for war wastages etc, all they are doing really is equipping themselves for terrorism and low-grade guerilla warfare. Much simpler to do.
I just checked wiki, POF has 27K employees, OFB has 164K. ratio of 6:1. PA maintains approximate 50% of our force level. Even if OFB has 1/6 the productivity it should be able to produce the same amount as POF i.e. to equip a army of 500K. So POF at 1/6 the workforce is able to sustain a 500K army of 250B GDP for constant fights in 5 fronts and we can't do one?

If IA wants OFB to produce X and they deliver .25X, then we assume in fours years they will reach X. Even if we assume training & ops use of 50% of .25X, then in eight years we should have unused stock of X. Given that war can happen anytime, IA will make it utmost to maintain stocks.

Ofcourse this is a simple calculation, where shelf life is not considered.

We haven't had a full fledge conflict for 14 years. Where did all the ammo go?

The same OFB was able to equip IA for a two front, full fledge war in 71 within a year. The same OFB is not able to do it now?

Personal view shortage of ammo preventing a response is nonsense.
Bart S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2938
Joined: 15 Aug 2016 00:03

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by Bart S »

nam wrote:
Bart S wrote: Several reasons for that:
1> Our production agencies for the most part are unionized socialist hellholes where productivity goes to die, and no GOI or political party seems to have the b@lls to tackle that fundamental problem
2> Production of weapons in Poakistan is given top priority and everything is directly fasttracked
3> While we are planning for war wastages etc, all they are doing really is equipping themselves for terrorism and low-grade guerilla warfare. Much simpler to do.
I just checked wiki, POF has 27K employees, OFB has 164K. ratio of 6:1. PA maintains approximate 50% of our force level. Even if OFB has 1/6 the productivity it should be able to produce the same amount as POF i.e. to equip a army of 500K. So POF at 1/6 the workforce is able to sustain a 500K army of 250B GDP for constant fights in 5 fronts and we can't do one?

If IA wants OFB to produce X and they deliver .25X, then we assume in fours years they will reach X. Even if we assume training & ops use of 50% of .25X, then in eight years we should have unused stock of X. Given that war can happen anytime, IA will make it utmost to maintain stocks.

Ofcourse this is a simple calculation, where shelf life is not considered.

We haven't had a full fledge conflict for 14 years. Where did all the ammo go?

The same OFB was able to equip IA for a two front, full fledge war in 71 within a year. The same OFB is not able to do it now?

Personal view shortage of ammo preventing a response is nonsense.
I agree with you to the extent that there is lack of political will and the rest are excuses. In addition, the issue with the OFB is tactical in nature, the bigger issue is at the strategic level with the political leadership over the last few decades who have at best neglected to fix the issues and at worst probably knowingly let the issues remain as a way of sabotaging our warfighting ability. India of 1971 was led by IG (who despite all her flaws could take tough decisions) and we had just come off some hard knocks in the preceding decade due to which the complacency was not as much as it is today.

However, in addition to all of that I think we do really have an issue with availability of arms and ammo for a full-fledged war, and more importantly the infrastructure and means to churn out the stuff locally for an extended war.
Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21538
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by Philip »

It's very,very,sad watching the veterans of the armed forces puring out their hearts again and again,whenever a Paki atrocity takes place,as has been going on for decades now. All we get from our political class is the "befitting reply"! Frankly,that's all they can do "talk". We had hoped that the greatly trumpeted "surgical strike" would usher in a new threshold of action from India,but alas,we were yet again fooled."Demonitisation has destroyed terrorism" boasted our beloved PM,,but how many strike shave taken place since then,day after day-as we are seeing today?

In dealing with Pak,rhetoric cannot ever replace firm action. What the country needs today is an Indira Gandhi approach to Pak and terrorism.She did not flinch from going into the Golden Temple and paid for it with her life,but she was prepared. Are any of our leaders today prepared to take on perfidious Pak? The last leader to do so was ABV. Despite his great concern not to cross the LOC,he stayd the course and Pak cried
"uncle" (Sam)!


The only language that Pak understands is a bayonet up its f*cking ars*. i call it the "Full Mankeshaw". That is what is required today,obliterating Paki posts,towns and villages with continuous bombardment with arty and MBRLs, PGMs to take out bunkers,command posts,etc.,and the use of the IAF as well where required. For the repeated acts of terror in Srinagar,taking a huge toll of the lives of our security forces,Muzzafarabad must pay the price. Obliterate it. it is only when 100 Paki shitworm lives are taken for every Indian casualty will they understand.

Diplomatically too we must slipper them.Booting out their HC,spy staff,banning all intervisits between Paki and Indian citizens,cutting off all sporting links,demanding Pak's expulsion from SAARC, you get the pciture.

Finally,if our politicos have any b*lls at all and claim to be men not transvestites,let them declare Pak a terrorist state in the two houses unlike the l;ast attempt where they shamefully fled from the "scene of action",where all that was required was a vote! With such eunuchs at the helm of affairs ,representing the people of India,is it any wonder that Pak simply does what it does ad nauseum?
uddu
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2091
Joined: 15 Aug 2004 17:09

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by uddu »

Locked