Bharat Rakshak Forum Announcement

Hello Everyone,

A warm welcome back to the Bharat Rakshak Forum.

Important Notice: Due to a corruption in the BR forum database we regret to announce that data records relating to some of our registered users have been lost. We estimate approx. 500 user details are deleted.

To ease the process of recreating the user IDs we request members that have previously posted on the BR forums to recognise and identify their posts, once the posts are identified please contact the BRF moderator team by emailing BRF Mod Team with your post details.

The mod team will be able to update your username, email etc. so that the user history can be maintained.

Unfortunately for members that have never posted or have had all their posts deleted i.e. users that have 0 posts, we will be unable to recreate your account hence we request that you re-register again.

We apologise for any inconvenience caused and thank you for your understanding.

Regards,
Seetal

India Border Watch: Security and Operations

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Tejas.P
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 30
Joined: 10 Apr 2010 09:25

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Tejas.P » 23 May 2017 19:39

Rahul M wrote:sorry, doesn't satisfy me one bit.

ten. that should be the number in our mind when talking of just reply. every single casualty on our side MUST extract ten of the barbarians.
I want to see arty & MBRLs raining on their btn & bde hqrs.


True. But its important to remember that this assault was likely coordinated across various sectors and therefore hit multiple PA fortified positions. It's being reported that the first video released was filmed on May 9. Date of the second video cannot be ascertained. This fits the denial narrative ISPR has pursued when they deny any op details released by ADGPI but then go around and complain to UN as they did a few days ago.

I also doubt IA would raise such a fuss about one fire assault on one pillbox in one sector. Likely these kinds of fire actions have happened since the mutilation of our soldiers and only now they are releasing videos of specific locations as examples of retaliation. Read: recent encounter in Nougam.

This makes me think IA is hitting them hard and local commanders actions' are being backed by the GoI. It is encouraging.

Supratik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4888
Joined: 09 Nov 2005 10:21
Location: USA

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Supratik » 23 May 2017 19:48

No these are cumulative casualties from series of strikes not one. They are releasing only a few footage.

Tejas.P
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 30
Joined: 10 Apr 2010 09:25

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Tejas.P » 23 May 2017 19:54

Supratik wrote:No these are cumulative casualties from series of strikes not one. They are releasing only a few footage.


I agree. This is more of a new dawn in Mil-Media relations. Also psych warfare to pakis as a teaser of what is to come as summer heats up and infil rises across the LoC.

Honestly, i get that they have to pacify public anger against PA's bullshit (and to satisfy our jingo cravings :) ) but I would rather they do this decimation quietly than whip up media frenzy and usual reactions from JDU and leftist usual suspects.

EDIT: Also Major Gogoi's commendation press conference is today along with this news being released. NOT A COINCIDENCE! :twisted:
Last edited by Tejas.P on 23 May 2017 20:01, edited 3 times in total.

ArjunPandit
BRFite
Posts: 579
Joined: 29 Mar 2017 06:37

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby ArjunPandit » 23 May 2017 19:55

Here comes the DDM for rescue of their patron, our enemies have got all right and we havent got any..apart from accounting subterfuges....No wonder this article appears in BS, the same newspaper which said Mark Zuckerberg to invest in Air India for AI
Why war with Pakistan is not an Option
Seriously, was this guy in Indian army???

JTull
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2013
Joined: 18 Jul 2001 11:31

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby JTull » 23 May 2017 20:08

Supratik wrote:15 dead, 25 injured per initial reports.


Really, that many men in one place right on LOC?

yensoy
BRFite
Posts: 561
Joined: 29 May 2002 11:31
Location: USA

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby yensoy » 23 May 2017 20:14

ArjunPandit wrote:Here comes the DDM for rescue of their patron, our enemies have got all right and we havent got any..apart from accounting subterfuges....No wonder this article appears in BS, the same newspaper which said Mark Zuckerberg to invest in Air India for AI
Why war with Pakistan is not an Option
Seriously, was this guy in Indian army???


That is completely a doofus article, the premise is wrong and the data is dated. Capt Raman should go back to doing what he does best, give TED talks.

Fact is that we are talking about sub-conventional warfare. We are talking about demoralizing the enemy, bankrupting them (by forcing disproportionate spending on the army), and targeting the halo that surrounds their armed forces. We may not have strong friends, or any friends at all, but we do have the world's tacit support to proceed. We have the resources to pay for limited adventures. China will not jump into the fray at the current level of escalation.

Business as usual hasn't worked. The local population's loyalties? Immaterial at this point. They can help (as some of them do) or they can stay out of the way. If Pakis try another Gibraltar, I won't be surprised if locals again out the infiltrators - after all it's one thing throwing stones at Indian soldiers and quite a different thing living under the black flag.

Karan M
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 14479
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Karan M » 23 May 2017 20:18

The guy had a golden run under UPA, he and many other guys like shooklaw will be activated now. Wait and watch.

Karan M
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 14479
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Karan M » 23 May 2017 20:21


satya
BRFite
Posts: 711
Joined: 19 Jan 2005 03:09

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby satya » 23 May 2017 20:37

Rahul M wrote:sorry, doesn't satisfy me one bit.

ten. that should be the number in our mind when talking of just reply. every single casualty on our side MUST extract ten of the barbarians.
I want to see arty & MBRLs raining on their btn & bde hqrs.


Rahul

there are wheels within wheels of this new strategy . Think every act , every bit of information points to multiple changes that have taken place . A request for forum members please do not elaborate in depth on open forum. Its not same revenge 10 for 1. Message , its tone & it deliverance is different . We are walking the talk finally ! Watch interview of Gen. Bikram Singh .

vinod
BRFite
Posts: 560
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby vinod » 23 May 2017 20:44

Can we keep a sanitized zone in POK where there is constant destruction of pak property and lives. i.e. as soon as post has enough number of soldiers and anything valuable, we hit it hard....

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 47919
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby ramana » 23 May 2017 20:55

satya don't bother.
Forum needs to prune very heavily.
Folks have forgotten Kargil.

Supratik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4888
Joined: 09 Nov 2005 10:21
Location: USA

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Supratik » 23 May 2017 21:32

He is bs-ing. India-China is now stale-mate. Pak will be the new theatre of India-China cold war if China insists.

kvjayan
BRFite
Posts: 226
Joined: 23 Nov 2002 12:31

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby kvjayan » 23 May 2017 21:56

"The Indian Army Destroying Pakistani Posts Is More Noise Than Fire", declares Praveen Swami, the 'Strategic Affairs Specialist', working for a paper (mistakenly) called The Indian Express.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mu3ZDaIwzmM

nirav
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2021
Joined: 31 Aug 2004 00:22
Location: Mumbai

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby nirav » 23 May 2017 22:05

kvjayan wrote:"The Indian Army Destroying Pakistani Posts Is More Noise Than Fire", declares Praveen Swami, the 'Strategic Affairs Specialist', working for a paper (mistakenly) called The Indian Express.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mu3ZDaIwzmM


What a hack, this guy !!

I'd prefer listening to this gent. Gen Bikram Singh

https://youtu.be/yYt9bhs1VV4

Prasad
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6581
Joined: 16 Nov 2007 00:53
Location: Chennai

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Prasad » 23 May 2017 22:19

We've had a steady upping of responses. We've had setbacks sure, like Pathankot but our replies have been steadily increased. This is good to see. RahulM, just wait and Look at what is happening right now. And what happened two years back and connect the dots.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 33714
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby shiv » 23 May 2017 22:33

kvjayan wrote:"The Indian Army Destroying Pakistani Posts Is More Noise Than Fire", declares Praveen Swami, the 'Strategic Affairs Specialist', working for a paper (mistakenly) called The Indian Express.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mu3ZDaIwzmM

Actually what Swami says is 90% reasonable (he has blocked me on Twitter for saying what I think of him). It is the title that is wrong.

Rishi_Tri
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 75
Joined: 13 Feb 2017 14:49

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Rishi_Tri » 23 May 2017 22:57

Prem Kumar wrote:+108

Ultraviolence & 10X overmatch are the only languages Pakis understand. The brutality should be so painful that they wince when even thinking about it


++ that.. Think its time to move beyond destroying bunkers along LoC. Bunkers are as expendable among assets as they can be. Time to strike something of importance. We haven't retaliated enough for Parliament, Taj, Uri,.. attacks.

Sometimes wonder what Vajpayee Ji would have done - he did trigger the bombs, turned Kargil into full fledged confrontation, and took us almost to war in aftermath of Parliament attack.

Why not strike an important bridge in Gilgil Baltistan which is already restive or a base in Balochistan that Iran has already threatened with. Umpteen options on table .. wonder why Modi is holding back.

Bunkers should have been done 15 years back.

Bheeshma
BRFite
Posts: 592
Joined: 15 Aug 2016 22:01

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Bheeshma » 23 May 2017 23:03

Bunkers were being done 15-20 years back when musharaff came crawling for ceasefire . The mehran base like attacks are what is missing.

Rishi_Tri
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 75
Joined: 13 Feb 2017 14:49

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Rishi_Tri » 23 May 2017 23:33

Bheeshma wrote:Bunkers were being done 15-20 years back when musharaff came crawling for ceasefire . The mehran base like attacks are what is missing.


++ Acknowledge.

Meant that Bunker Busting was good enough for that time. Hope that the path and time to The base wont be too long, if need be.

nachiket
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5819
Joined: 02 Dec 2008 10:49
Location: Соединенные Штаты Америки

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby nachiket » 23 May 2017 23:34

Pakis denying these strikes is perfect for us. We can keep escalating, they can keep denying.

We have used MGs, mortars, ATGMs and recoilless guns. They have denied it.
Next step is to bring in the Bofors guns and pound them. They'll deny it.
Then bring in the Pinaka and Smerch batteries and flatten whatever is within reach. They'll deny it.
Next move a detachment of Jaguars to Srinagar and hammer them from the air. Doubt there will be any denial after that. By then they should have lost dozens of men and a ton of infra if not more.
What we need to make sure is that we strike targets as deep as possible in PoK. Not just their border posts. But supply depots and Btn/Brg HQs in the rear, if they are within reach of any weapon in our arsenal short of ballistic missiles.

Gyan
BRFite
Posts: 903
Joined: 26 Aug 2016 19:14

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Gyan » 24 May 2017 00:09

kvjayan wrote:"The Indian Army Destroying Pakistani Posts Is More Noise Than Fire", declares Praveen Swami, the 'Strategic Affairs Specialist', working for a paper (mistakenly) called The Indian Express.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mu3ZDaIwzmM



And his newspaper is more useful for toilet roll than rather than news.

Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 16228
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: woh log gawad hai, unpad hai !
Contact:

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Rahul M » 24 May 2017 00:21

Prasad wrote:We've had a steady upping of responses. We've had setbacks sure, like Pathankot but our replies have been steadily increased. This is good to see. RahulM, just wait and Look at what is happening right now. And what happened two years back and connect the dots.

oh, I agree there has been an uptick in our response. I disagree {STRONGLY} with the quantum of that response. it is not enough, not nearly enough.
every one of lives lost here is highly valued and leaves a void for family and society that cannot be filled. each Indian life lost is worth hundreds of lives of the murdering barbarians to our west. I am asking for a number 1/10th that as payback. surely that's not too much to ask ?

Rudradev
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2852
Joined: 06 Apr 2003 12:31

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Rudradev » 24 May 2017 00:58

Rahul da,

Besides slaking our thirst for vengeance, the problem needs a long-term solution. As events unfold, I'm sure that some day Paki losses will reach or exceed the kill ratio you want. But that won't prevent them from trying again, and again, and yet again even if they are decimated.

Remember what C Fair says in her book "The Pakistan Army's Way of War". For the TSPA, "victory" is simply surviving and being able to confront India another day. So as long as Pakistan exists in any shape or form, we can be sure that they will continue terrorist attacks, that we will lose lives, that Indian families and societies will continue to suffer irreplaceable voids. That won't end no matter the ferocity of our border ops.

The only way out is to materialize an existential threat to Pakistan and destroy it forever. The difficulty with that is that Pakistan is now part of the Han empire. Empires may despise the residents of their colonies but they will fight very hard to preserve the territorial integrity of their imperial possessions. Look at the British in India, for example, fighting Afghan Wars and playing the Great Game for the sole purpose of defending the integrity of the jewel in (their) crown. Or the US going to war over Pearl Harbor (what was Hawaii in 1945 if not a colonial possession of the Americans?)

So the terminal solution to this problem will come when, and only when, we fight an all-out war against the People's Republic of China (plus its Pakistani Sepoy Armed Forces) and win.

Rudradev
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2852
Joined: 06 Apr 2003 12:31

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Rudradev » 24 May 2017 01:09

It took from 1947 until 1992 (45 years) for a certain political awakening to dawn amongst a critical mass of nationalistic citizens of India.

It took from 1992 until 2014 (22 years) for that political awakening to fully crystallize into a mechanism for the stable exercise of governance, and achieve potentially enduring control over the institutions of state power (note that I say "potentially enduring", because even now we are not out of the woods).

I will facetiously predict that, if all continues to go well, in 11 years we will be ready to do the needful.

Prem
BRF Oldie
Posts: 20350
Joined: 01 Jul 1999 11:31
Location: Weighing and Waiting 8T Yconomy

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Prem » 24 May 2017 01:21

Rudradev wrote:Rahul da,
The only way out is to materialize an existential threat to Pakistan and destroy it forever. The difficulty with that is that Pakistan is now part of the Han empire. Empires may despise the residents of their colonies but they will fight very hard to preserve the territorial integrity of their imperial possessions. Look at the British in India, for example, fighting Afghan Wars and playing the Great Game for the sole purpose of defending the integrity of the jewel in (their) crown. Or the US going to war over Pearl Harbor (what was Hawaii in 1945 if not a colonial possession of the Americans?)
So the terminal solution to this problem will come when, and only when, we fight an all-out war against the People's Republic of China (plus its Pakistani Sepoy Armed Forces) and win.


No Master will fight for slave when enemy has 10 T plus economy & enough strategic weapons to send them all back to stone age. The realistic time period is no lat than decade . And let's see if IA have done some salami slicing this month and captured few Tillas on the LOC.

Akshay Kapoor
BRFite
Posts: 1013
Joined: 03 May 2011 11:15

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 24 May 2017 01:28

Rudradevji,

with respect this makes no sense...we did nothing against Pak for decades because of lack of politcial will and understanding and now that very baby steps are being taken you are saying that actually we now have to defeat another enemy who has become far more powerful than us because of our neglect over the decades. so bascially nothing can be done.

That is not true. You have not had experince of the Paki fighting man. I have...he is not this superman you make him out to be...hard punitve action with clear headed end game brings him to his knees. The problem is we have never done that. There are a whole range of options that we have never explored. RahulM mentioned one some time ago - declare open season on 10-15 km from LC, hit their bde HQs by airstrikes, mass all our strike corps arty on LC and given them hell for days, deep strikes by forces on ground. We are still reacting, still giving them the initiative and still being defensive. They will keep trading off jihadis for our soldiers and civiies ad infinitum. This will not work. We have to take the initiave and use regular raids (without provocation) as a regular policy of destabilization of Pak. The end game has to be their destruction not stopping them from attacking us. Even in first term in NDA cadets will tell you you should never loose initiative. Thats whats killing us.

Whats to stop us from recongnizing Balochistan tomorrow, from ceasing all trade, sending squads to execute Dawood etc.?

Karan M
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 14479
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Karan M » 24 May 2017 01:40

I posted this before & will repeat it - there will be no escalation beyond the norm. IMHO only. Following is my limited understanding of the situation & no attempt to state the obvious to somebody like RahulM, whom I bet has pretty much a solid grasp of this far beyond I do! He is stating what is our wish, that we inflict disproportionate response and bring this sordid saga of attacks on India to an end.

Anyhow - my theory if you will
We have a Machiavellian (his opponents call him that out of sheer dismay, and to a degree it is true), very methodical individual at the helm. He has a set of tasks he has decided to do, and an all out war, without waging it to decisively and overwhelmingly win, with minimal loss to the Indian civilization state, is not going to happen. We cannot do that yet, so he will calibrate & proceed on multiple fronts at parallel.

He will decide the escalation matrix, and the TSP guys will be severely punished, but it will be calibrated. It will also be constant. The way I see it, with my limited understanding - it is to

a) Fix the Indian Governance structure & get it out its corruption & paralysis plus the effect of various influence peddlers (foreign & domestic).
b ) Restore the indian economy to build both GOI negotiating power & prepare the public to look beyond narrow parochial & survivalist need
c ) build up the Indian armed forces & institutions to respond to national security needs without being influenced by vested interests.
d) Build up a coherent political force that remains in charge of the Indian state, to achieve points A to C.

Each of the actions undertaken tie into one of the above 4 points IMHO. some of them required huge leaps of political will & faith & were directly contradictory to a politicians stated aim hitherto in India, which is to survive and loot & ensure kith & kin remain in fine fettle. This also explains why kith & kin have been kept far away at arms distance. They have no play in this humongous & ambitious plan & hence attacking them, makes no difference to the person, who himself is in an all-or-nothing play. It also explains (unfortunately) why irritating gnats like the DDM and assorted p-secs have been ignored. Their combined caterwauling was evaluated, and deemed to not be sufficient to attack and address point D, which is to win the hearts and minds of the bulk of the Indian populace which is effectively rural, agrarian &/or urbanizing but needs a strong "paternalist" state to survive. For them, bringing governance back and economic boost is important.

At the same time, the urban population like BRF needs the above plus a public reaffirmation of successful national will - hence the publicly stated surgical strikes, and now these cross border hits, videotaped and shown.

Just to point out what I mean by decisive war making capability and why it will take time, beyond IMHO 2019.

The ammunition shortfall - thanks to deliberate UPA malfeasance, is calculated by GOI estimate, as Rs 6000 Crores, to make up WWR. Apart frm this is WWR 10(i). This refers to 10 days intense, 2 front conflict. This is why the orders for around $500 Mn placed for ammo and spares were placed.

If we see above, there are huge lacunae in equipment for each service above and beyond immediate WWR and ammo. Each of this will be gradually built up.

MOF has to play balancing act. For instance, PM took a huge decision on demonetization. Based on whatever public sources I have read, it was motivated squarely to clean up the economy of vested interests & terror funding. The black money optics and data collection post event not withstanding. However, it would affect a consumption led economy & consequently, such periodic actions have to be taken into account. The current infra investment etc will only pay off post 2019. The GOI is doing whatever it can to start the engine, but it is chugging & not racing. It is in this milieu, that orders for 36 Rafale are placed and not 72 at one shot.

So, with this in mind, will this GOI wage a hot war against TSP? I think not. The person at the helm has his calculations & they are of the methodical kind. He will work with the IA to plug the border (as much as possible) and impose punitive costs. More fronts will be opened in far away areas. At the same time, IB & R&AW will be leaned onto avoid Mumbai 26/11s and train sabotage etc, which are an ever present threat. The states in control will be brought more and more under the ambit of an iron curtain regarding operational security. And as to these tactical attacks on Indian security forces, they will be met with more such publicly telecast retaliation. A cold "hot war" will continue till things continue to fall in place. If that is the case, then why build up WWR etc? Well, as I said methodical. Is it any surprise that our CAS told all his 12,000 officers to be prepared, BEFORE the IA took its revenge? Hardly. Similarly, we are to be prepared for a Kargil or mini-Kargil and escalation, but we will continue to calibrate it.

I agree its not optimal. In an ideal world, we would not have been ruled by a corrupt mafiosi for a decade and we would be strong enough by now. But we are where we are, and we have to accept the same & see the chess game being played. The TSP guys know what the stakes are, so they will up the stakes in barbarity. Their optics are about us second guessing the elected PM, his establishment, the Army & in our fear & desperation, torpedo the nation building effort continuing currently. On our side, we too should be vigilant and by all means, expect the GOI to not fall back into somnolence and hit back. But there won't be a hot war. However, in a decade, if this man & his handpicked successors continue, there may well be no need for one. If the Indian internal security situation is brought well under control, with appeasement politics a thing of the past, and INC-Left nexus consigned to dustbins, then we will have what PVNR et al were known for, viz TSP internal affairs, many times over. And IA/IAF/IN will be so strong that conventional conflict will be a mugs game. Ditto for strategic capabilities. Then TSP will just fester in a throe of subconventional messes, and our babus will sit & munch marie biscuit & nod their heads sagely when think tanks ask us to "de-escalate". Much the same way foreigners kowtow to the Middle Kingdom over ties with the renegade province, which BTW has supapawa support and first class economic and tech capability to sustain itself, which TSP does not. How long will 3.5 prop up an increasingly failing state when the next door power & rising Sun is needed to handle the Dragon & its market and capabilities are necessary both to sustain their economies and their own wayward lifestyles.

I suspect this is what the PM & his crew are working towards, optics of the occasional WKK trip apart. It is the long game, all of a decade at least, which the TSP guys are aware of, and hence wish to attack, but their own internal schizophrenia & loathing of the "other" will ensure they will never make peace & will hence consign themselves to irrelevance. For here is the point, when in a decades time, the iron grip of the Indian state is near absolute, where will the baying jackals of TSP go, to spread "purity" but the cantonments of the TSP state itself? It will be of course, watched with severe sadness by GOI which will solemnly till TSP to be aware of human rights & dignity of the oppressed T-bunnies. Meanwhile, IA will be funded more & more, in years to come to seal the border & fight with more support. That too will happen, despite all of us folks getting frustrated at the pace of it all, and the always harsh sacrifice being paid by IA folks.

Anyways, this is my limited take, and I do wish there was another way. But incremental and methodical progress is this PM's approach, or so it seems, with the occasional large risk, again done for specific aims. He will appeal to emotion, but the iron fist in a velvet glove, thats always there.

Akshay Kapoor
BRFite
Posts: 1013
Joined: 03 May 2011 11:15

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 24 May 2017 02:08

Thanks Karan for an interesting piece. In terms of your point a - governance why has IAS/IPS not been fixed / abolished yet ? Unless that is fixed nothing can happen. Re pint c - why dont we have a RM, why does IAS still rule defence, why have the armed foces constantly been denigrated and their staus reduced even further vis a vis IAS/IPS ?

Karan M
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 14479
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Karan M » 24 May 2017 02:20

Akshay sir, i believe its all incremental. The PM after he came to power set about understanding who runs what, and the limits of their power. He let all his opponents show their networks and will then one of two things. Either they fall in, or he uses the system to reduce them into irrelevance. He never subverted the organs of the state. Instead the aim has been to win political victories and make the state understand who runs it now.

He will not kick out IAS/IPS. He will just use IAS/IPS/existing system to implement his aims. His successor or whoever comes a decade later, may have the political capital in a changed India, which is stable enough, to completely disrupt the existing system.

For instance, right now, if MOF wants to fight leftist NGOs who support Maoists, who better to lead this then the IAS and assorted babus, who will drown the folks in so much paperwork that even the most highly awarded lawyers in dilli, can only complain about "freedom of expression" because the laws, most clearly were broken.

Similarly, IPS will be used to continue the fight against Maoists, etc, and criminal networks, as inefficient as they initially are, because the limitations of deploying the professional armed forces are known.

The PM has a use for everyone. Just align to his objectives. And after he leaves, I believe he even has his successor marked out. We just don't know it yet, because it will lead to more division in his own party, which was otherwise becoming INC's B-team but needed this man, to stiffen up and which in turn ties in with another organizations aim of having a pan India cohesive identity. They too, I think understand the stakes after how they were attacked, and are hence willing to let one of their own trained proteges implement their aims, in his own manner. They too will overlook the occasional diversion as long as the overall aim is met.

Its all a high stakes game which is being run by a bunch of seasoned political operators, who are very harsh on themselves. In a way, that's the discipline, which I think armed forces officers and personnel or folks in very demanding environments, will understand.

sudeepj
BRFite
Posts: 1062
Joined: 27 Nov 2008 11:25

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby sudeepj » 24 May 2017 02:26

1. Praveen Swami claims, 70% of the fence comes down every year. This oft repeated claim is nonsense. Lutyens conflict entrepreneurs have changed a factoid, that 70% sections of the fence needing some kind of repair in some small part of the fence due to snow every year, into 70% of the fence comes down every year. It may be a 10 meter part in a section that is 10 kms long, but hey.. that section has been damaged by the snow!
2. He claims that arty duels stop repairs to the fence. This may well be true, but points to a lacuna in our targeting strategy. We were nude when it came to effective counter battery fire in the 90s, but is that still the case after so many long range weapons and sensors have been inducted?
3. I tend to agree with his take that this does not amount to much, because
(a) There are likely no Pak officers in those bunkers. Their officers are always stationed in the rear.
(b) Even if officers were there, Pak elites have ceded officering in their army to lower middle class people. More of them will be expendable.
(c) The Pak elite who take these decisions feel no pain if a few random lower class people die. So much the better for rallying the same lower class people against the enemy.

We need to target the Paki elites, which we can do by refusing them any kind of legitimacy in India. No Paki actors, no Paki cricketers, no Paki commentators, no Paki business and we need to take it a step forward by declaring Pakistan a terrorist state and impose sanctions on western firms that do business with Pakistan.

I also agree that no war is in the offing for at least the next 5 years, simply because the govt. has not allowed the budget for it.

Kakkaji
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3033
Joined: 23 Oct 2002 11:31

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Kakkaji » 24 May 2017 02:31

Why not revive the IA's own 'BAT' units that Gen VKS had created and that were disbanded after his departure as CoAS?

Karan M
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 14479
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Karan M » 24 May 2017 02:33

Regarding defence & why things are not optimal, I believe that's why MP was brought in. He was given free reign and things like the service chiefs given much expanded financial powers (without CCS need) given. Unfortunately, MP decided his sojourn in Delhi was not to his liking and left back to build his political base OR, it was decided that losing Goa was not an option & MP was required there. So, we have a situation, which is so dysfunctional, that one man, the PM cannot do it all. He can periodically take stock & when things are found wanting, the PMO directly intervenes. The Ganga Action Project was not picking up pace & its success is essential for 2019, so the PMO is (partly) running the show. Similarly, while MP was busy solving the nitty gritties of things like Su-30 serviceability, the WWR issue hung fire. PM when he came in 2014, received classified presentations, per reports on state of affairs. Thereafter, it was MOD and MOFs mandate to fix things. They didn't, because after all, the ways things have been run would have continued to as MOD went to MOF, and MOF said no money. So after the attacks, the PMO again took stock & $500 Mn of emergency orders have been placed.
This shows two things - one, its very important for continued delegation & support from the right people at the right places, PM can't do everything. However, when the lacunae become evident, action is decisively taken.
So, things are not perfect by any means, but they are not bleak either & IMHO, will improve as every day that passes, means the wayward bureaucracy & sloth of GOI is brought more into control.
It will not however be as speedy as we wished (and you would have seen my frustration at some of these events before). But it is occurring & there is an overall objective to strengthen the GOI & actually make it a GOI versus a Govt run as some sort of exploitative colonial power.

Karan M
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 14479
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Karan M » 24 May 2017 02:41

Kakkaji wrote:Why not revive the IA's own 'BAT' units that Gen VKS had created and that were disbanded after his departure as CoAS?


I believe VKS had not created BAT teams but an expanded MI sort of team which collected both actionable intelligence and acted on it, sort of a mini R&AW.
IMO current GOI will not do anything wherein it "loses". Every action is carefully calibrated, and left to the professionals - which would be Doval & the service brass, to run, after it is run by the PM and the specific folks/ministries affected. So, if IA says it can extract revenge by fire assaults, it will be done. If IA says, it wants to evaluate SF readiness & the possibility of success is high, because PA is unprepared AND GOI gets good optics, it will be done. I believe (all my own guess-work), this Govt is very ruthless when it comes to such events. It has accepted more or less that J&K type events & cross border violence will keep occurring. But it will be upto IA to decide what it needs to deter the issue, and what it needs, political support will be there, but all out war is not an option. Not for now, when the financial impact of building up a full scale war winning apparatus is too large. Further, R&AW capabilities for true cross border ops IMHO are also limited. So we will see the IA continue to take the occasional hit but also given the freedom & wherewithal to retaliate forcefully. Of course, coop with other friendly non Indian agencies who give moral and diplomatic support will pick up.

Karan M
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 14479
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Karan M » 24 May 2017 02:48

I think Praveen Swami's claims are rubbish and motivated by his blinkered idealogical leftist bias, which just cannot accept a "hindu nationalist" India giving it back to the TSP state. His sources, his entire "reportage" has been fed and molded by the UPA soft state which fed him because he showed them in a good light while subtly running down the IA and other "militarists". The fight against TSP was all from the good folks in the civil establishment, with the right idealogical bias. He will ignore the fact that a former IA Chief is contradicting him, from a truly non partisan organization, because it does not fit the agenda.

Whenever the IA gave it back, Swami was quick to run to disparage the efforts and mock them. His twitter feed is full of idealogical quasi religious baiting wherein he cannot and won't accept the fact there is a Govt, which is not of his idealogical persuasion in power & hence has to be rubbished. Unfortunately, the same affliction wth the likes of Shooklaw and some other types. They are simply not objective. Like/dislike wutever, be objective in your understanding of what this Govt is doing.

IA was attacked because they asked for it, CG made up stories of attacking a terror boat- all of Swami's theories.

This is the true state of our leftists. In terms of his claims or implied statements that these retaliatory actions don't amount to much because their is only firing as always, and Pak officers wutever escape, that is rubbish. Because if TSPA rank and file get hammered, the TSPA morale takes a dive & the officer class has to look nervously over their shoulder. The TSPA officer class also will learn through the grapevine what happened and hence the jarnails have to be bothered. Even in 1999, bodies of slain TSPA soldiers were returned in the night & even their ops hidden lest rest of TSPA found out the depth of the beating.

So IA has a clean angle. Beat the TSPA, publicize it. Again and again. And this team no WKK babus in PMO are sitting to ensure TSPA image is not hurt, because after all, they are like us onlee and next WKK peace talks will be affected.

Aditya G
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3259
Joined: 19 Feb 2002 12:31
Contact:

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Aditya G » 24 May 2017 03:11

jamwal wrote:Atleast 3 mortar strikes.


ATGMs

Image

Please share the gif on social media whatsapp etc

Prem
BRF Oldie
Posts: 20350
Joined: 01 Jul 1999 11:31
Location: Weighing and Waiting 8T Yconomy

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Prem » 24 May 2017 03:19

at 0800, Gen Malhotra explains the weapons used and sequence plus crossing the LOC
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YdgUMSwCKA

Aditya G
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3259
Joined: 19 Feb 2002 12:31
Contact:

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Aditya G » 24 May 2017 03:34

^ so it seems 106mm RCLs have been dusted off and brought back into action.

GIF for first video released. There are no contrails visible so arty definitely no ATGMs here. Even for 84mm RL there is a distinct parabolic trajectory visible - not the case here.

Image

SwamyG
BRF Oldie
Posts: 15944
Joined: 11 Apr 2007 09:22

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby SwamyG » 24 May 2017 04:19

China will NOT go out to fight a war for and on behalf of Pakistan.

Rudradev
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2852
Joined: 06 Apr 2003 12:31

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Rudradev » 24 May 2017 05:44

Akshay Kapoor wrote:Rudradevji,

with respect this makes no sense...we did nothing against Pak for decades because of lack of politcial will and understanding and now that very baby steps are being taken you are saying that actually we now have to defeat another enemy who has become far more powerful than us because of our neglect over the decades. so bascially nothing can be done.
.?


Sirji,

Where am I saying nothing can be done? In fact I am confident that a lot IS being done. But I want to point out what the long game is. Solving Pakistan WILL require solving PRC. There is no easy feel-good answer and there will in fact be many occasions to feel upset, angry, disappointed etc. Please regard my post in the context of the discussion preceding it.

Rudradev
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2852
Joined: 06 Apr 2003 12:31

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Rudradev » 24 May 2017 05:48

SwamyG wrote:China will NOT go out to fight a war for and on behalf of Pakistan.

Not so easy to dismiss.

True, they made loud noises but sat on their thumbs in 1965, 71, 99.

But it is a different PRC today with a much more inflated sense of its "imperial" destiny.

Deng Xiaoping became thanda after Vietnam and then Sumdorong Chu. He sobered the institutions of CCP and PLA and that pattern held good for 30 years. Xi is a different sort.

Note also that Pakistan never offered itself up for outright PRC colonization as abjectly as it has today.


Return to “Military Issues & History Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Aditya_V, Austin, Indranil, Kersi, Krishna_V, ravikr, Sagrawal and 58 guests